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Tip.It times - 3rd October 2010


Racheya

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Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

 

When replying please make sure to clarify the article you are replying to! Thanks!

 

If you spot any typos or mistakes in the article then please PM them to me :)

 

Enjoy the articles!

 

(Sorry there's no descriptions to the articles in the news post this week, I'm full of a cold. :pray: )

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I edit for the [Tip.It Times]. I rarely write in [My Blog]. I am an [Ex-Moderator].

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Racheya: Perhaps you didn't think about doing things you like in an efficient matter?

 

Between making, say, super attack or super def (examples) pots, there really is no difference... Why not do the most efficient?

 

Efficiency really only is knowing the opportunity cost of things, then choosing. That's all.

 

EDIT: Great DYK, I never knew.

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Efficiency noob - gotta admit, that's one I've never heard before. I do use a spreadsheet to calculate various costs / rewards / milestones (15 different pages at present).

PvP is not for me

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Of course, Im only speaking in stereotypes right now. Every player is unique, have their own way of playing the game and, I hope, enjoying Runescape. However, Stereotypes play a big part in the Efficiency wars.

I guess they play a part in that they're invalid strawman arguments, sure. :roll:

 

However the thing that IS wrong is when these extremely efficient players that see themselves as elite start to call people who dont use the most efficient methods noobs.

Think about this for a minute. Now take out "extremely efficient" and replace it with any adjective.

 

However the thing that IS wrong is when these older players start to call people noobs.

However the thing that IS wrong is when these younger players start to call people noobs.

However the thing that IS wrong is when these high-level players start to call people noobs.

However the thing that IS wrong is when these casual players start to call people noobs.

 

Notice how the meaning doesn't change? Treating people rudely is wrong whether you're efficient or not.

 

By singling out efficient players for rudeness, you're saying that as a group, efficient players are more rude than non-efficient players, and quite frankly I find that offensive. :angry:

 

It would be wrong to suggest that its just the pro-efficiency players that can be accused of calling names.

And no, it doesn't help that you said later on that inefficient players can be rude too. That's like saying "I don't want to sound racist, but there's way too many Mexicans in this neighborhood." If you don't want to suggest that it's just the "pro-efficiency players" who are rude, don't suggest it. :shame:

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Of course, Im only speaking in stereotypes right now. Every player is unique, have their own way of playing the game and, I hope, enjoying Runescape. However, Stereotypes play a big part in the Efficiency wars.

I guess they play a part in that they're invalid strawman arguments, sure. :roll:

 

However the thing that IS wrong is when these extremely efficient players that see themselves as elite start to call people who dont use the most efficient methods noobs.

Think about this for a minute. Now take out "extremely efficient" and replace it with any adjective.

 

However the thing that IS wrong is when these older players start to call people noobs.

However the thing that IS wrong is when these younger players start to call people noobs.

However the thing that IS wrong is when these high-level players start to call people noobs.

However the thing that IS wrong is when these casual players start to call people noobs.

 

Notice how the meaning doesn't change? Treating people rudely is wrong whether you're efficient or not.

 

By singling out efficient players for rudeness, you're saying that as a group, efficient players are more rude than non-efficient players, and quite frankly I find that offensive. :angry:

 

It would be wrong to suggest that its just the pro-efficiency players that can be accused of calling names.

And no, it doesn't help that you said later on that inefficient players can be rude too. That's like saying "I don't want to sound racist, but there's way too many Mexicans in this neighborhood." If you don't want to suggest that it's just the "pro-efficiency players" who are rude, don't suggest it. :shame:

I'm just pointing out that a lot of pro-efficiency players say it's just people that play efficiently that call names. So I felt it was an important point to make, that both sides of the debate can be charged of this. I actually feel a lot more harshly towards pro-efficiency players that call names since it often seems very stereotypical. They may get all upset at being called a noob, but throw around 'no lifer' themselves.

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I edit for the [Tip.It Times]. I rarely write in [My Blog]. I am an [Ex-Moderator].

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So I felt it was an important point to make, that both sides of the debate can be charged of this. I actually feel a lot more harshly towards pro-efficiency players that call names since it often seems very stereotypical. They may get all upset at being called a noob, but throw around 'no lifer' themselves.

Except you didn't say that. You said:

Its true that many players find efficiency and reaching high levels to be genuinely fun, they enjoy getting the xp and racking up the high scores, theres nothing wrong with that. However the thing that IS wrong is when these extremely efficient players that see themselves as elite start to call people who dont use the most efficient methods noobs.

 

Yes, noob is hardly the most insulting term you could call someone, but its the idea behind it that matters, rather than the actual name-calling - the idea that being efficient makes you fundamentally better than other players. Yes, you may have more xp and higher levels than that player, but that doesnt make you better in any other way than stats. In fact, if youre highly efficient even though you dislike having to use certain methods - maybe you genuinely hate it, but you continue anyway because its the best xp per hour and you need that xp then you are possibly a worse player than the person youre calling a noob. Maybe that person has low levels because, rather than spending their time training, they like to play Castle Wars for a few hours a day. Maybe they like Stealing Creation, or spend their time at the Burthorpe Games Room I said maybe!

Explain how this is calling out "both sides" for name-calling? <_<

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I found the Efficiency article slightly biased, but interesting points raised nonetheless. You can't really say that pro-efficiency is all bad, what is wrong with trying to obtain a good amount of xp? Namecalling has existed since the beginning of mankind, calling others 'noobs' happens on both sides, and that will never change.

 

I'm glad that you guys finally picked one of my better DYK submissions, only some people know about it. As I've said plenty of times before, as long as you deem something is fun, that is technically 'efficient', in the 'every rational decision is an efficient decision' sense.

 

I don't read the Fictionals, so no comment on that.

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Any article is going to be biased towards the side the author sides with. It's just that way with most opinionated articles.

 

Constructive criticism towards your article would be using "I". It would sound more professional/know what you're talking about if you rephrase sentences to not include "I". Just a pointer I've learned in a writing class I've been taking.

Edited by Lowc15

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Liked the fictional :) And the DYK was amazing =O (Although I suspect it only exists 'cause Jagex hasn't realized it...)

 

The efficiency article was okay... I didn't like the part where everyone started getting split up into categories. You just can't do that with people. Because people don't fit perfectly in one box or another. Plus, the "average" player line annoyed me. How would you possibly know what that was o_o

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my difinition of noob is i dont like u, either u are better then me or u are worst them me

Buying spins make you a bad person...don't do it. It's like buying nukes for North Korea.

Well if it bothers you that the game is more fun now, then you can go cry in a corner. :shame:

your article was the equivalent of a circumcized porcupine

The only thing wrong with it is the lack of a percentage for when you need to stroke it.

 


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Interesting read...

 

O.O I found nothing wrong with it, tbh.

Just sayin' but... There always seems to be SOMEONE who disagrees with something Racheya says.

 

 

... okay... I WILL admit I didn't like the whole categories of players but...

Nearly Everyone will be put in a box by someone else, just get used to it.

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Rach's the Bern to my Lambda, Req's the Erika to Rach's Bern. It works.

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I believe Racheya missed the entire point of Michael's thread.

 

[hide=Stop calling names]

But, for god's sake never acknowledge the last part of that sentence because you'll know your clueless. :lol:

 

This is exactly what I hate about efficiency freaks.

 

What you can't force you troll. Hence xtroll.

[/hide]

 

[hide=The point, tldr version in last quote]

All I've been trying to say this thread is that fun can be one of the goals of efficiency.

Typically we just calculate getting the best gp and xp with your time.

It does not mean however, that efficiency can be getting the best gp, xp, AND fun with your time.

After all, playing a game and not having fun, is most definitely not efficient.

 

I just choose not put fun in my calculations.

Because calculating math equations with fun as a variable, is most definitely, not fun.

 

RACHEYA: Directed to you. You ASSUME that being efficient ISN'T fun. That may be true to you, but for us efficient players, it is actually far MORE fun. You assume far to much, and it actually proves the point we have been saying.

 

You just insulted someone based on their Major and occupation choice, then go on to say the efficiency guys are trolls, and you've somehow managed to prove it.

Having read nearly all the threads that are actually talked in, I've failed to see efficiency trolls other than maybe a few times in the Screenshot section.

On threads such as "Chaotic rapier vs Longsword" the efficiency people are discussing which is better at what objectively, because that is what the thread is for. When in the Help and Advice section, the efficiency are giving people the kind of answers they're looking for. If they didn't want efficient answers, and just wanted to play the way they find fun, they wouldn't be posting there.

Everywhere else, there's rarely any talk of efficiency since it'd be irrelevant.

 

So if you don't mind, can you please tell me where efficiency is trolled? (other then in screenshots.)

 

[hide]

Efficiency is gaining the most output for the least input, for example if time is the imput, then the fastest method of training would be the most efficient. This combined with other factors such as money, effort, and funness (to be fair this would fall under effort).

 

Now lets look at this forumula in action.

 

In our controlled group all these factors are valid (please dont switch in your own method, the given is that you make this much and you like this method or hate it *im not basing it on your personally preference but in general*)

 

Training method A costs 400k gp per hour (you make 500k gp per hour), but gains you 100k xp per hour. It also requires constant clicking and is a method you personally do not enjoy.

 

Training method B costs 200k gp per hour (you make 500k gp per hour), however it gains only 40k xp per hour. It is semi afkable and you enjoy this method.

 

 

Which one is more efficient?

 

While some players may say "method A is obviously better, I dont lose any money and i dont care if i have to focus 100% on what I am doing and I hate this method anything for the fastest xp possible" I personally say more power to them!

 

While some players say "yes method A does deliver faster xp but I hate it, by doing method B i can train for over twice as long before having to go back to money making, and I can do homework or *insert activity here* while training, and as a bonus I love this method (be it whatever personal reason you like it)" I personally say as well, more power to them!

 

The fact of the matter is efficiency is subjective, what you may find efficient is not what another person may find to be. For example on time constraint method A might be better for you and might be worth sacrificing fun however to someone with more free time they might opt for method B.

 

In short no one has the authority to decide objectively what is the best method to train.

 

(in b4 this post gets ignored by the efficiency trolls)

[/hide]

 

A very good explanation, and FYI, the "efficiency trolls" are the group that will agree with you the most, as we've ALL been arguing this very point.

You might want to be careful, your so called "efficiency trolls" might take offense at plagiarism.

 

 

On another note.

 

[hide]

Here is an example of what I have seen. I was killing iron dragons when the elite clues came out. Someone down there, lvl 115 or so, had been there long enough to have the dragons stop attacking him. Here is what he said to me:

 

thenoobsaidthis.png

 

Please not, this was the 4th time I had killed the same dragon, while he was standing there doing nothing. I had been killing the spawn next to it also. He was using full proselyte and a whip with anti-dragonbreath shield. I was using Z-spear with fighter hat, prossy pl8 and tassets, super antifire potions, and extreme pure sets.

 

Is it really that much of a surprise that when you stand still for 6 minutes, and the monsters you are at are in single combat and crowded, someone else might move in to "your" spot? I was totally fine with him wearing his outfit, and killing iron drags (or not killing them as the case may be) in that outfit. But flaming me because you afk'd in a crowded area wearing second rate gear and I moved into your spot for a bit is annoying. Please note, I did not respond to him. I simply right clicked and added him to ignore, and moved on to the next open dragon a few seconds later.

[/hide]

 

This is just a few personal experiences I have had. It does not mean this happens 100% of the time, but it happens to me enough for me to notice a general trend. This trend namely being that it is not an uncommon occurrence for me to meet people who are not doing something efficiently, and by all appearances, not having fun doing it either.

 

no. i think it's awesome and cool to kill things fast. which is more fun - to kill 500 monsters an hour or 50? i think 500.

 

This thread, for some reason, is STILL funny. Then again, maybe it's because I see any page-long arguments as hiding subliminal messages. :P

 

I still think that it should be let everyone go their own way - both those who prefer to train in the most efficient way possible to get to the fun stuff, those who find joy in the training itself, or those who find joy in training the most efficient way possible. Some enjoy the journey, and thus make it longer; some enjoy the destination, and thus make the journey shorter; some enjoy watching the sights of the journey whizz by, and thus also make it shorter.

You ask for advice regarding a specific "destination" (i.e. goal, level, XP amount, w/e) and it is presumed that you are aimed toward achieving the destination instead of enjoying the journey.

 

Anything I missed?

[/hide]

 

None of the players on this thread who say they are efficient call anyone names in game, nor do they make fun of people for not being efficient. Actually, if is insulting you for not being efficient, they have no right to call themselves efficient. However, efficient players will correct you if you make a false claim, such as:

 

"The Saradomin Sword is faster experience then the Whip+Defender"

 

That claim is false, but I have heard it multiple times. However:

 

"I like to use the Sara sword more then the whip."

 

is a totally fine statement.

 

From what I have seen, many people say the first, but mean the second. And they get upset when someone corrects them. What these people do not realize is that whoever responds does not have the ability to read their thoughts. They got a response based upon what they said, but they act like it was based upon what they thought.

 

 

the idea that being efficient makes you fundamentally better than other players.

If you need an example of someone thinking he is better then others, go read Golvellius' drivel on the Efficiency thread.

 

Also, basing a huge part of your article on the fact that efficient people call other people names, and then sticking a "oh, btw, inefficient people do the same thing" statement on the very end does not make it any better. A real life example would be raising your hand in class and saying "Hey, my friend here needs help with (insert simple thing here), so could you go over it for him? Oh, and I don't understand how you can apply the chain rule to this problem." That is what you said, but what everyone takes away from that is "Hey, my friend is incredibly developmentally delayed, he needs massive help." This happened in one of my classes, and absolutely 0 people in this class like this person now. This person killed any chance they had of making friends in this class within about 3 seconds.

 

Everyone is rude, everyone makes many mistakes.

 

Trying to provide for the inference that other people are the only ones at fault of this is both rude, and a mistake. The term is Hypocrite.

 

If you are going to write a biased article, then make it biased. Don't attempt to fix it at the very end. Actually, Dane Cook has a whole section of his CD "Isolated Incident" that makes fun of people who do this. Make the assumption you are trying to get people to infer. Say what you think, don't sidestep around it and imply small things about it.

 

If you are going to say "Efficient people are elitist jerks." Then say it. Don't follow up by saying "oh and so is everyone else." The mere act of claiming the former proves the latter.

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I believe Racheya missed the entire point of Michael's thread.

 

Racheya told me that she didn't make it in response to Michael's thread.

then she is lying or completely unaware of her subconscious

 

go read her posts in that thread

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I believe Racheya missed the entire point of Michael's thread.

 

Racheya told me that she didn't make it in response to Michael's thread.

then she is lying or completely unaware of her subconscious

 

go read her posts in that thread

I took inspiration from the thread, seeing as there's a complete lack of interesting updates the last few weeks. But I didn't write it in direct response to the thread because that would just be silly. I took inspiration from the thread as well as imputing my own experience on the issue.

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I edit for the [Tip.It Times]. I rarely write in [My Blog]. I am an [Ex-Moderator].

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I believe Racheya missed the entire point of Michael's thread.

 

Racheya told me that she didn't make it in response to Michael's thread.

then she is lying or completely unaware of her subconscious

 

go read her posts in that thread

 

Do YOU know when Racheya is lying?! Do YOU know what Racheya is thinking subconsciously?!

No. So don't make the assumption she wrote this in response to this... person's... thread!

 

 

... as racheya said... It wasn't a direct response.

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Rach's the Bern to my Lambda, Req's the Erika to Rach's Bern. It works.

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I took inspiration from the thread, seeing as there's a complete lack of interesting updates the last few weeks. But I didn't write it in direct response to the thread because that would just be silly. I took inspiration from the thread as well as imputing my own experience on the issue.

fair enough

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The efficiency article: Very true, I don't play RS for grinding, I play for fun.

 

Unfortunately, my main source of fun in RuneScape is partaking in quests. The quest this month (The conclusion to the Void Knight series) and the conclusion to the Mysteries of the Mahjarrat series will both require large grinding on my part, something I find nearly impossible to do, and usually detracts from the fun of the quest.

 

/meaningless post.

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What, the only thing that actually makes me skill at all (besides herblore) is quests! My total level would fail miserably if I didn't have to keep getting it up for quests. Like now, I'm going to have to work on RC again, if I want to finish up the diaries. Not my favorite thing to do, but I appreciate the fact that the game is well rounded, and not completely biased for one specific type of person.

 

If everyone who played RS was the same, then I would get bored, and most likely leave to play something else.

 

Keep the diversity :thumbup:

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