Tip.it Times - 17th October 2010

[Guest jrhairychest]

@ringworld

 

Why don't you cut those logs? The same reason you buy in weapons, armour, other items, supplies etc. Be honest, you've bought in things because you couldn't be bothered. True?

 

@Not_trolling

No idea where you're going with that but read the above line along with the fact I've already stated I'm guilty of this myself.

[stonewall337]

You still havn't proven, or even attempted to prove WHY its lazy. You just say so.

 

The moon is made of green cheese.

 

I said it, it must be true!

 

Faulty logic is faulty, and idiots can't be argued with.

 

There is a best (objective) way to play the game, and their are personal decisions, such as being a pure, skiller, etc. I fail to see how doing what I enjoy best, and am best at (Monsterhunting, slaying, etc) for my GP and then buying what I want makes me "lazy".

[Assume Nothing]

You still havn't proven, or even attempted to prove WHY its lazy. You just say so.

 

The moon is made of green cheese.

 

I said it, it must be true!

 

Faulty logic is faulty, and idiots can't be argued with.

 

There is a best (objective) way to play the game, and their are personal decisions, such as being a pure, skiller, etc. I fail to see how doing what I enjoy best, and am best at (Monsterhunting, slaying, etc) for my GP and then buying what I want makes me "lazy".

 

It isn't. End of story.

 

I think it's funny, The Economic Problem almost doesn't exist in RuneScape, except for Rares.

 

On Topic; I don't get why Inflation is "worse" than Deflation. Not sure where the quote is, but I'm sure it's implied somewhere. Can someone care to prove it?

[stonewall337]

Inflation hurts cheaper items more, right? Like fish, logs, etc

[Assume Nothing]

Inflation hurts cheaper items more, right? Like fish, logs, etc

As long as the average 'wage' goes up at the same rate, there isn't that much of a problem. And before people argue about things tied with alchemy; It never was good money. Stop dreaming.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Lmao I knew neither of you would be able to answer my question. Youre wrong. Thats much of the reason why trading goes on. The bulk of your economy depends on players relying on other players for items they cba to train for or get....oh sorry for efficiency. If my logic is so bad then those few hundred mills made purely on other players being lazy puts me in a position to understand what other players want so I think I know what Im talking about. I like lazy players :D

 

Up to you if you dont want to acknowledge it but youre being dishonest with yourselves if youre saying it doesnt go on or you dont do it. Oh well.

[Assume Nothing]

Lmao I knew neither of you would be able to answer my question. Youre wrong. Thats much of the reason why trading goes on. The bulk of your economy depends on players relying on other players for items they cba to train for or get....oh sorry for efficiency. If my logic is so bad then those few hundred mills made purely on other players being lazy puts me in a position to understand what other players want so I think I know what Im talking about. I like lazy players :D

 

Up to you if you dont want to acknowledge it but youre being dishonest with yourselves if youre saying it doesnt go on or you dont do it. Oh well.

 

Okay? You still haven't explained why it is lazy though. And I refuse to acknowledge anything you say until you give me a 5000 word paragraph on the meanings of lazy, economy, RuneScape, and few.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Lmao I knew neither of you would be able to answer my question. Youre wrong. Thats much of the reason why trading goes on. The bulk of your economy depends on players relying on other players for items they cba to train for or get....oh sorry for efficiency. If my logic is so bad then those few hundred mills made purely on other players being lazy puts me in a position to understand what other players want so I think I know what Im talking about. I like lazy players :D

 

Up to you if you dont want to acknowledge it but youre being dishonest with yourselves if youre saying it doesnt go on or you dont do it. Oh well.

 

Okay? You still haven't explained why it is lazy though. And I refuse to acknowledge anything you say until you give me a 5000 word paragraph on the meanings of lazy, economy, RuneScape, and few.

 

You can prove it to yourself. Think about those skills you've trained/intend to train, the armour you've bought/intend to buy and all those other goodies you buy in. All those times you've thought "I'll buy those in". Why did you do this? You couldn't be bothered to get them could you? The proof is being honest with yourself. Guilty as charged myself sometimes. I just bought 20k rune ess that I couldn't be bothered to mine so I'm proof of this too. I've bought armour sets, weapons and all sorts through RS as rather than get them myself I decided to be lazy and buy them. I'm honest with myself about it.

 

Many of those who go to barrows, go for dbone drops, sigils, mine ore/ess etc. etc. etc. (enough etc. for around 4970 words) all rely on the demand by players who won't get those themselves. Laziness keeps the 'economy' going but if everyone decided to get their own items then there wouldn't be much left of this economy.

[Assume Nothing]

Lmao I knew neither of you would be able to answer my question. Youre wrong. Thats much of the reason why trading goes on. The bulk of your economy depends on players relying on other players for items they cba to train for or get....oh sorry for efficiency. If my logic is so bad then those few hundred mills made purely on other players being lazy puts me in a position to understand what other players want so I think I know what Im talking about. I like lazy players :D

 

Up to you if you dont want to acknowledge it but youre being dishonest with yourselves if youre saying it doesnt go on or you dont do it. Oh well.

 

Okay? You still haven't explained why it is lazy though. And I refuse to acknowledge anything you say until you give me a 5000 word paragraph on the meanings of lazy, economy, RuneScape, and few.

 

You can prove it to yourself. Think about those skills you've trained/intend to train, the armour you've bought/intend to buy and all those other goodies you buy in. All those times you've thought "I'll buy those in". Why did you do this? You couldn't be bothered to get them could you? The proof is being honest with yourself. Guilty as charged myself sometimes. I just bought 20k rune ess that I couldn't be bothered to mine so I'm proof of this too. I've bought armour sets, weapons and all sorts through RS as rather than get them myself I decided to be lazy and buy them. I'm honest with myself about it.

 

Many of those who go to barrows, go for dbone drops, sigils, mine ore/ess etc. etc. etc. (enough etc. for around 4970 words) all rely on the demand by players who won't get those themselves. Laziness keeps the 'economy' going but if everyone decided to get their own items then there wouldn't be much left of this economy.

 

So basically what you're saying is, no matter what situation, the person buying an item is always 'lazy'? You should understand that it's impossible to obtain many items without the levels to make it. If you don't understand that, stop posting. I agree to some extent laziness is what keeps Flippers profitting, but the whole Economy doesn't revolve around people being 'lazy'.

 

In fact, items from shops are sometimes the only obtainable method to get said item, and shops are part of the 'Whole Economy'. You lost.

[stonewall337]

Defining lazy:

1. averse or disinclined to work, activity, or exertion; indolent.

2. causing idleness or indolence:

 

 

So ye, just because I don't like killing 50k green dragons for 99 prayer, doesn't make me lazy.

[Obtaurian]

In 2005 (maybe 2006) I decided that I wanted 70 ranged. I fletched 15k steel arrows FROM SCRATCH. I mined the coal and the iron, I cut the logs and fletched them into arrow shafts, and I hired a bunch of newbs to gather feathers for me. It took me a pretty long time as you can imagine.

 

Would've been so much easier if I had the sense to just buy them. DIY sure is fun. :rolleyes:

[Ts_Stormrage]

Inflation hurts cheaper items more, right? Like fish, logs, etc

As long as the average 'wage' goes up at the same rate, there isn't that much of a problem. And before people argue about things tied with alchemy; It never was good money. Stop dreaming.

Never? then why (as I described in the first couple of paragraphs of my article) was like 90%* of runescape doing that at the time? :D

 

In response to the recent development:

Efficiency in RS means: To get as much money for as little time spent, or, to get as much XP with as little money or time spent...

And I think lazy means in RS: The fact that you can't be arsed to do it all of it yourself... But face it; if we had to do everything ourselves, other players would be no different to us than NPC's, and this would become a RPG (or even an FPS) rather than an MMORPG (a direction which we're heading to anyway, it seems)...

 

 

*90% is a guesstimate and may not be used for statistical purposes other than to exaggerate ones point...

[Yatagarasu]

I enjoyed the first article. A very nice read and this debate was also interesting.

 

I do agree that inflation is indeed hard to fight, due to a community that is obsessed to finding the most efficient and/or effective way to obtain money. Players will always find a stable (to a certain extent) way to obtain currency. As a whole I did find your points well planned out.

 

On the other hand, I did somewhat disagree with your fourth point. New money sinks are still needed in Runescape. The reason being is that many old money sinks are out of date, due to updates. The example with I will provide is death, before gravestones, the chances of getting your items back after death was very small. But with gravestones and spawn points near banks, the chances have been improved enormously. So you might be "risking" gear which is worth millions during a boss fight, but the odds of you re-obtaining them is pretty reasonable. Wealth isn't exiting the system. You can argue some exceptions, but as a whole money is just sitting there. The only way money seems to leave the system on a significant scale is when an account is abandoned, but then the money is only archived. That means that it can re-enter the system at any time, if the account rejoins the community.

 

I only see involuntary money sinks as a viable solution for fixing the increasing inflation. One suggestion that I can give would be to reduce the value of drops in the Party Room, by reducing them by 10% (or more) can have a significant impact in that area of the game. A one million drop can be converted into a nine hundred thousand drop. You could expand this by making the Room only drop coins; so that junk items can be somewhat useful.

 

I have nothing against you, but I don't see "fixing the leaks" as a viable opinion.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Thats ok... But then your argument would not be to have new ones, but rather revive some old ones?

 

I have pondered this too, and it's lead me to a major money sink thats rarely used these days; Shops! Besides some slayer equipment and supplies for summoning and construction, what do people buy from shops these days?

[Yatagarasu]

a major money sink thats rarely used these days; Shops!

 

Shops are another victim of recent updates, mainly the G.E. As a free to play player, almost all of the items at the G.E are on or just under the alchemy price. This is compared to general stops witch are at low alchemy prices and specialist shops at high alchemy prices (but quickly drops when you bulk sell). So everyone would naturally sell to the G.E. as it entails the largest possible profit. I remember well in my newb days of selling my bronze and iron equipment to the general store and having to wait 5 or so minutes for a free space. For this to be "revived" would mean that the G.E. would be removed, but needless to say this will cause a whole host of problems.

 

I'm not suggesting reviving old money sinks, but rather new ones to replace them as the game changes.

[Assume Nothing]

Inflation hurts cheaper items more, right? Like fish, logs, etc

As long as the average 'wage' goes up at the same rate, there isn't that much of a problem. And before people argue about things tied with alchemy; It never was good money. Stop dreaming.

Never? then why (as I described in the first couple of paragraphs of my article) was like 90%* of runescape doing that at the time? :D

 

In response to the recent development:

Efficiency in RS means: To get as much money for as little time spent, or, to get as much XP with as little money or time spent...

And I think lazy means in RS: The fact that you can't be arsed to do it all of it yourself... But face it; if we had to do everything ourselves, other players would be no different to us than NPC's, and this would become a RPG (or even an FPS) rather than an MMORPG (a direction which we're heading to anyway, it seems)...

 

 

*90% is a guesstimate and may not be used for statistical purposes other than to exaggerate ones point...

 

Okay, 'never' is a little too far. But the point still stands, it wasn't good money for a long time anyway.

[Assume Nothing]

Somehow, I thought an old TipIt Times article was recent, the last post was on the 15th of August :x http://tip.it/runescape/?times=470. Wrote a pretty long reply, so I'd paste the thing here. Not sure about relevance, but they seem to be somewhat connected;

 

Someone make an article called "Common Misconceptions/Contrary to popular belief" or something. All I see is arguing over the very basic terms on RS. "Grinding", "Efficiency", "Fun", "Lazy", "Boring", "Objective", "Subjective" and "Achievement"; these terms are being thrown around without full understanding of the meanings of these words, or taken out of context to suit arguments in a fallacious way.

 

Some claim that "Training efficiently is boring, play your own game", or assert that "DIY is better than trading, because trading is a lazy way of obtaining materials".

[Bladewing]

if you DON'T buy anything you are a drain on the economy. i prefer a lazy person to a freeloader.

[Guest jrhairychest]

My point was never about players being lazy is necessarily being a bad thing, more that lazy gameplay contributes more to the economy than some care to admit. Some on here don't even like to admit that they are lazy :rolleyes: but rest safe in the knowledge that as long as they are there you'll have your economy.

 

I don't believe that inflation is a problem tbh. Sooner or later players draw the line on whether prices are too high and if so they'll take the necessary means to go out and get what they need themselves or choose alternatives, which for most things is viable. Demand drops so the price falls. There will be anomolies, such as the coal example as most of the high level smiths I know do gold, which has stayed reasonably low in price. No idea personally what keeps the price of coal so high as I don't deal much in it.

 

@TS

Interesting perception of the player community becoming like NPC's. Isn't it like that already, considering most of our trading is done via the G.E. and not players any more?

 

@not trolling - Whats with this 'you lose' approach? I didn't realise this was some sort of teeneage testosterone competition but if that is the case the please feel free to declare yourself the winner.

[Sir_Kurity]

I don't believe that inflation is a problem tbh. Sooner or later players draw the line on whether prices are too high and if so they'll take the necessary means to go out and get what they need themselves or choose alternatives

 

Ahh, but money is easier to get now than it ever was.

 

See the thing with inflation is, though the prices may go up, so does the earning power of the average player.

 

There was a time where i wouldnt dream of risking a dark bow other than to LOLPJ and 1 item or similar, nowdays i could care less about it.

[Guest jrhairychest]

I don't believe that inflation is a problem tbh. Sooner or later players draw the line on whether prices are too high and if so they'll take the necessary means to go out and get what they need themselves or choose alternatives

 

Ahh, but money is easier to get now than it ever was.

 

See the thing with inflation is, though the prices may go up, so does the earning power of the average player.

 

There was a time where i wouldnt dream of risking a dark bow other than to LOLPJ and 1 item or similar, nowdays i could care less about it.

True, prices do rise to a certain extent. However, I've never seen them rise disproportionately on most stuff unless manipulation has happened or an update has occurred. In most cases its usually corrected itself over time. Everyone has a line drawn somewhere as we won't pay daft prices for something that we know there is an alternative for if necessary. I certainly wouldn't. Besides a dark bow isn't even valued at 1m now and over time its value has steadily declined, probably because of its commonality compared to what it was so I'd say it was worth risking in PVP (Yes JR - Like you ever do PVP! :lol:) .

 

In fact, if anything, a lot of items are very low at the moment and it could do with what TS said about dungeoneering. I also don't see a lot of people doing resource gathering as much as they used to.

[Sir_Kurity]

Besides a dark bow isn't even valued at 1m now and over time its value has steadily declined, probably because of its commonality compared to what it was so I'd say it was worth risking in PVP (Yes JR - Like you ever do PVP! :lol:) .

 

Dark bow has been around 1 mill for ages.

 

But thats the thing, its TECHNICALLY been the same price, but its actually gone down in price due to people making money more easily than before.

[Owned_Nex]

A few comments on the first article:

 

1. Bots did not drive the price of sharks down. There were sharks bots since its inception. Why did the prices suddenly crash? Demand. Instead of Sharks you have Rocktails. If you want to PK, you used Rocktails. If you wanted to PvM, you used rocktails. Sharks are no longer the best, their prices will drop to a near Hp/GP ratio like all the other foods.

 

2. I disagree with Lie 1 completely. The supply from bots is not insecure at all. I estimate 80% of raw materials come out of bots. While bots do have some downtime with major updates, they spring back within HOURS. Look at soulwars, red chinchopas, or Ivy. Bots are always there. Updates WILL NOT stop bots. If bots were removed, raw materials will skyrocket. The vast majority of raw materials come from bots, after all, who REALLY wants to mine, woodcut, or hunt for weeks on end? A small group of people use the amount of red chinchompas it takes from 63-99 hunter. I guarantee you if bots were all removed, red chinchopas will, at the very least, double in price. The bots are the ones keeping the economy stable. Without them prices will shoot up.

 

3. I also disagree with Lie 2. Unfortunately, Merchants do not simply amplify natural market fluctuations. They CREATE them. They buy massive stock before announcing the merch. Then those who paid money irl gets informed, and soon the random clan chat people. When the item is dumped, the random people get the now junked item. Although private merch clans may target a useful item, the vast majority do not. It isn't as much forcing you to buy at max price, it is removing the item from trade. You can't buy a merched item until they are dumped. This makes some items effectively junk, and others immensely expensive but useless.

 

4. Another disagree with Lie 4 XD. While the points outlined are valid, the end result is not true. While people *could* be doing other things, remember that most people are doing some sort of combat. Combat, except for the highest tiers of PvM, don't really affect the economy at all. Still, the number of these players pulled off of PvM is negligible. Consider the Dungoneering world. World 117 is almost always full, or nearly full. However, that is pretty much it. 95% of people doing Dungeoeering do it there. A small majority are those that do things that can really affect the economy. Looking at the bigger picture, you lose such a tiny tiny amount of people that it really does not matter. Also, while the graphs might show fluctuations, remember that correlation does not imply causation.

[Ts_Stormrage]

1. Bots did not drive the price of sharks down. There were sharks bots since its inception. Why did the prices suddenly crash? Demand. Instead of Sharks you have Rocktails. If you want to PK, you used Rocktails. If you wanted to PvM, you used rocktails. Sharks are no longer the best, their prices will drop to a near Hp/GP ratio like all the other foods.

 

Stupid argument to begin with... It shows you barely read the article at all, as I never said sharks TODAY dropped 70%... It was at a time before Barrows and Slayer were released...

 

2. I disagree with Lie 1 completely. The supply from bots is not insecure at all. I estimate 80% of raw materials come out of bots. While bots do have some downtime with major updates, they spring back within HOURS. Look at soulwars, red chinchopas, or Ivy. Bots are always there. Updates WILL NOT stop bots. If bots were removed, raw materials will skyrocket. The vast majority of raw materials come from bots, after all, who REALLY wants to mine, woodcut, or hunt for weeks on end? A small group of people use the amount of red chinchompas it takes from 63-99 hunter. I guarantee you if bots were all removed, red chinchopas will, at the very least, double in price. The bots are the ones keeping the economy stable. Without them prices will shoot up.

 

So you agree that without bots prices would shoot up? Ok so the disagreement is not so complete? You say 80% of raw materials is bot-generated? Again not so far form what I have stated... Bots doing Ivy? What?!

Oh the logic in your text is somewhat flawed, but i'll try to decypher your main point... The only thing we seem to disagree on is the fact that YOU think bots will always be around to do the dirty work for us, while I think that bots are nowhere near undetectable... The fact that Jagex backs my statement up, sort of negates your argument entirely?

 

3. I also disagree with Lie 2. Unfortunately, Merchants do not simply amplify natural market fluctuations. They CREATE them. They buy massive stock before announcing the merch. Then those who paid money irl gets informed, and soon the random clan chat people. When the item is dumped, the random people get the now junked item. Although private merch clans may target a useful item, the vast majority do not. It isn't as much forcing you to buy at max price, it is removing the item from trade. You can't buy a merched item until they are dumped. This makes some items effectively junk, and others immensely expensive but useless.

 

Another clue to your reading abilities... I believed I tossed out the ethical and legal arguments even before starting to make my point... I believe I also said that I do not sympathise with stupid, uber-rich, or impatient people... This leaves us hardworking, anticipating, patient people none of which make the mistakes you described...

 

On top of that you argue that merchants use items that are useless? Why would that bother anyone? Swing and a miss, mate...

 

4. Another disagree with Lie 4 XD. While the points outlined are valid, the end result is not true. While people *could* be doing other things, remember that most people are doing some sort of combat. Combat, except for the highest tiers of PvM, don't really affect the economy at all. Still, the number of these players pulled off of PvM is negligible. Consider the Dungoneering world. World 117 is almost always full, or nearly full. However, that is pretty much it. 95% of people doing Dungeoeering do it there. A small majority are those that do things that can really affect the economy. Looking at the bigger picture, you lose such a tiny tiny amount of people that it really does not matter. Also, while the graphs might show fluctuations, remember that correlation does not imply causation.

 

Have you been on worlds 77? 138? 148? There's others too...

On top of that, you mentioned that all points are valid, but then you say that "most people are doing combat" which goes directly against the point in my article... But ok... I thought the most plain argument was WAY too obvious that Dungeoneering does indeed have an impact on the economy, which is why I left it out... But using Chaotic weapons puts a 200k per hour dent in any money generated... Should also check out osme of the price graphs, particularly around the time that Dungeoneering came out...

 

So, nice try, but plz read again :)

[Guest jrhairychest]

Dark bow has been around 1 mill for ages.

 

But thats the thing, its TECHNICALLY been the same price, but its actually gone down in price due to people making money more easily than before.

 

Remember when it was worth quite a few mill and that wasn't all that long ago. Plus you checked the 180 days on the G.E charts lately on it? Steady dip. How does making money more easily affect the price when the demand affects the price? According to 'inflation' it should have increased relatively in price. Demand has dropped as the bow's become more common.