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Tip.it Times - 17th October 2010


Racheya

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Not a double post... The previous post replied to someone that actually made a point and argued... This post replies to people that are simply making wrong statements without backing them up... Hell, some of those replies are a downright troll

 

Idiocy rank: A few fries short of a happy meal...

Hyperinflation is bad, but the moderate level of inflation we were seeing pre-dungoneering was good. This deflation we have now is downright unhealthy for the economy, higher level players especially as most of our moneymakers are suffering. Remember, the RS economy self regulates in that rares absorb most inflation.

 

"Moderate" level of inflation from the pre-dungeoneering time was anything but moderate... I dare infact call it hyper inflation because it made other moneymakers MUCH more profitable as well... Which is also the point of saying inflation is bad. It rips forms of money making out of proportion with one another, and therefor will leave huge portions of the game unused...

Rares do not absorb any inflation at all, because (as ALSO pointed out in my article) rares are not traded for JUST gp anymore... On top of that, the GP does not leave the game when buying a rare...

 

I think the mistake you made is thinking of your OWN economy, rather than RuneScape as a whole...

 

 

Idiocy rank:Likes to play with fire... In a forest... When it hasn't rained for months... While wearing a polyester suit!

Not only do bots provide an insecure supply, but because they are operating in such large numbers, they push the ones out that do. Many skillers have moved on to greener pastures for various reasons (DnD's and SC make it much faster training, for example), but one of those reasons is the simple fact that hardcore skilling does not have the same financial benefits anymore compared to alternative methods in particular PVP Worlds. The results are unstable prices at best, and destruction of peoples livelihood at worst.

 

How is a bot's supply insecure?

I stated this in my article, but I will repeat it for you; They are there at the whim of Jagex' security updates, and will to go out and mass-ban these things, none of which are predictable...

 

Lie 2: Merchant Clans are a bad thing.

Touchy statement to be disagreeing with, I know, as it always affects people directly. But let's throw the rules and ethics out the window for a moment.

I'm not sure people have a problem with what they're doing (buying low and selling high), its a problem with how they're doing it (duping people to believe that buying out item x will net everyone a profit).

They're also upset with the temporary freeze in the market - it doesn't matter how much they're willing to pay for an item, they just can't get it (or anything related). Many things in runescape are done on a whim, which is why stocking up on everything you might ever need isn't possible. Its not bank space, its GP.

 

Did I mention I have no sympathy for impatient people? If you need it NAO, RAIT NAO!, then l2bpatient...

 

Lie 3: Dungeoneering has no impact on the economy.

So uh, who told you this? Can you find 3 people in the past 6 months on the forums that have said this?

 

Fortunately, I do not only use forums to see what some people are thinking... But I think I get the implication of your statement here, you think that noone believed this lie in the first place... Just as I can't be bothered to quote everyone that actually did believe this, you cannot claim noone did not believe it... However... Whether or not people believe Dungeoneering had an impact on the economy, most people will think of that impact of being the cost to keep Chaotic equipment up and running... Not the fact that many people suddenly stopped 'participating' in RuneScape...

 

This is a troll, and you will be reported for it...

 

This next one deserves a seperate mention...

Idiocy rank: A very special kind of stupid...

No, I am a firm believer that you should not start cleaning the spill if you haven't fixed the leak yet. It diverts your attention from the main problem at hand, and everyone knows I am talking about the PVP drop table still.

As I posted before, the PVP drop table would've fixed itself. Here's one for you - I've been PVPing a lot the past month, and guess what. 75% of the value of my drops have been sold to the GE - items that weren't worth alching. You know what that means if it held true for everyone (no way of knowing because I don't P2P PVP)? PVP causes deflation.

 

Hang on, if I get you correctly, you sold some drops you got on the PVP worlds on the GE and therefor PVP causes inflation? First of all, get it in your skull please that nothing in RuneScape fixes itself, not even the economy, and ESPECIALLY not a droptable as it remains EXACTLY the same without Jagex updating it... Second, your drops also consisted most likely of statues which are traded directly for GP... This GP flows into the economy much faster than alching or monster drops or thieves do, and therefor it caused a massive spike in the common trade index (learn about it)... Selling something to the GE does not remove GP form the game, the item goes to someone else, and the GP goes from them to you; aka nothing gets added or removed...

 

Now I can already hear your next argument; "But if more items come into the game, the supply gets higher, so prices drop; and tadaa, its deflation." All very untrue because this is not what inflation is. Inflation is when there is an ever increasing amount of GP available PER PERSON... If there used to be X amount of GP for 10 million players, and now there is 3 times X amount of GP available for 12 million players (and not 30 million) it is inflation... Everyone has (on average) more money to buy stuff with, and therefor prices go up...

 

The reason why this is bad is because it kills the diversity of the game, something RuneScape is very famous for...

 

Allow me to paint a picture of how bad inflation really has been over the years. Coal has historically been the go-to item to get a read on it. It hovered between 150GP and 175GP just before the changes in the PVP drop table, and it just popped back over the 300GP mark again after the post-bonus XP weekend slump.

You're an active player in RuneScape. Why does it matter to you if one GP buys 1/100th of a piece of coal, or 1/300th, so long as 1 piece of coal buys 1/10th of an uncut emerald?

It matters because I cannot use the GE to trade 10 coal directly for an uncut emerald... GE is supposed to be the tool of the economy, using GP as a lubricant... See my previous answer on why inflation is bad...

 

Hypothetically speaking, people should either be buying stuff to get rid of their GP, or selling stuff to get more of it.

Or they should not worry about it and play the game how they want to?

 

Ahh, how lovely, another troll... This was a scentence that (it says hypothetically speaking, for crying out loud), was supposed to paint a picture of where we go from here... Some people do happen to care about their cashpile, you know :P

 

But let me state this as a warning to everyone posting on threads:

 

I've just written a huge article, filled with arguments, points made, and theories explained... What YOU just did was pick out a single scentence completely out of context, and tried to find stuff wrong with that single statement, without even looking further into the article, or even the paragraph... It is a pathetic tactic to try and poke holes into something, hoping others will also see it and agree with you... You are the embodiment of what is wrong with today's society... Screaming for attention, dare I say desperate for validation, and trying to rip other people's work apart if you must to get that attention... Go away, noone wants you here, except for other people that are just like you... Go seek help...

Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
Tip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.
MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




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Posting in large red letters doesn't make you look any more legitimate. Your article does contain some fallacies and assumptions, and that is a fact.

 

Actually on topic; You are pointing out problems, without actually giving any kind of solution to the problems. You say that inflation is bad, but what should be done about it?

 

In my opinion, Inflation is always better than deflation, as long as it's pretty evenly spread on all items. This is because with deflation, no one wants to buy any items. Items are always going to be cheaper the next day. Inflation, only makes items cost more, however, the moneymakers become more profitable, and you can do trades quite easily by trading risings for other risings.

 

As stated by bladewing before, the problem should be fixed at the source. Why not just change the way the drops are given? If there is 400b in items and 1000b in gp in the current active economy, PvP drops should be given at a 2:5 ratio of items to gp (a changing ratio or figure every day, or whatever other unit of time is deemed most appropriate). That way, the balance remains intact.

 

I don't agree with the point that "Bots supplies are insecure". It could be true, but players will bridge the gap quite easily. To to point; With the current way Jagex is banning these botters, I can't see any mass bannings anytime soon. Bots will always become more advanced, and over time, bots will be nearly undetectable.

 

Hmm, not sure what else to argue about. I'll leave this post here

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Bots will always become more advanced, and over time, bots will be nearly undetectable.

I think that goes for bot detection methods as well, though. It'll probably be a bit of a status quo, with the balance occasionally swinging in either direction.

 

Enjoyed the articles :)

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Bots will always become more advanced, and over time, bots will be nearly undetectable.

I think that goes for bot detection methods as well, though. It'll probably be a bit of a status quo, with the balance occasionally swinging in either direction.

 

Enjoyed the articles :)

 

Bot detection will always be slower than the bot makers advancements though. Andrew even said that. The quote goes something along the lines of "If we increase our macro detection system two times, they will advance four times". It's a neverending battle.

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@Ring World:

If there are no bots, skillign moneymakers would automatically become more profitable as the supply dries up... Combine that with the solution to stop the massive influx of GP into the economy (which will result in a lower value of a Godsword and such), and you'll see the different variations of moneymakers I have talked about grow closer together... They will not be tied and nor do I want to... But (again pointing to my article) if some mediocre warriors can make as much money as a high levelled skiller, something is out of balance... If we bring those closer together, you'll see more areas of the game used by more people...

 

@Not Trolling:

I have already stated what to do about inflation (and tbh, the economy could use a cicle of deflation for a while)... Fix the influx of GP (aka PVP droptable) and wait out the effects...

 

Also feel free to point out where I make unfounded assumptions and mistakes and I will gladly explain how I came to those... To clear up any false interpretations, my "msg in red" is to people picking apart every single scentence without even checking the rest of the paragraph, not to people who quote a possible false assumption...

 

Inflation or deflation, I don't like either of em... I just don't want to see certain moneymakers get pulled completely out of whack with the others, "forcing" everyone to proceed to do just that... I have clearly observed that, since the introduction of statues on PVP worlds, things started to inflate rather quickly, and therefor think that that problem needs to be fixed...

 

Unfortunately, inflationairy problems are harder to fix than deflationairy... The latter would see a drain of GP from the economy greater than the influx, which is often corrected by players themselves by not spending as much... Inflationairy is a lot harder to fix, because noone is willing to lose a stack of their cash without seeing something in return... In real life inflation is kept in check by interest rates, a mechanism often discussed to be implemented on GE transactions in RuneScape... I just do not see that particular solution happen...

 

To both:

As you yourselves stated, if all bots were banned, players will fill the gap... So lets run down that scenario...

 

If bots stop supplying, prices go up...

If prices go up, people either stop buying, or start gathering themselves...

If prices go up far enough, because it is a popular item, people will start gathering it for money... This will only happen if it is on par with other money makers out there... ~*~

If players do the jobs that used to be done by botters, less players will participate in other moneymakers...

 

End result; for the ordinairy person, little would change. But on the game overall; people will work MUCH more diversified "jobs", and as at least one person already stated on this thread, they can make money doing something they like doing, rather than something they hate (which would cut down on the obvious grind vs fun rants)...

 

~*~ This is asuming the influx of GP is also stopped, bringing down the other "rampantly out of control" moneymakers down a notch...

 

 

<Editted for clarification>

Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
Tip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.
MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




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It is, but he states very early in his article somethign that basicly nullifies it:

 

"As long as your income keeps up, rising prices shouldn't matter"

 

The only way our income can keep up with rising prices in runescape, is switch away from jobs that are done by bots, or are tied to alch values, and pick up a task you previously avoided (probably with reason)...

 

The 2nd article is even clearer ont hat as it states that noone will buy anything because the supply of money runs out...

 

This can never be the case in RuneScape though, as there are those same consistent moneymakers that will always yield the same GP/hr... This is the sole reason why I never have advocated changing the alch values of items (or make them adaptable to GE values), and are strongly against this ever happening...

Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
Tip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.
MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




Check us out!
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It is, but he states very early in his article somethign that basicly nullifies it:

 

"As long as your income keeps up, rising prices shouldn't matter"

 

The only way our income can keep up with rising prices in runescape, is switch away from jobs that are done by bots, or are tied to alch values, and pick up a task you previously avoided (probably with reason)...

 

The 2nd article is even clearer ont hat as it states that noone will buy anything because the supply of money runs out...

 

This can never be the case in RuneScape though, as there are those same consistent moneymakers that will always yield the same GP/hr... This is the sole reason why I never have advocated changing the alch values of items (or make them adaptable to GE values), and are strongly against this ever happening...

 

Bots typically only do things that are of low yield, such as Red Chinchompas or Green Dragons. They do not have the ability yet to do major moneymakers, such as Tds/Dks/FrostDragons/Bandos/Etc. Your point only applies to people who actually prefer inferior methods, or people who are unable to do the better methods. There isn't many 'good' moneymakers that are tied directly to alchemy value, really. Most of the ones you are referring to is mid-level range, or a skill that isn't very profitable in the first place.

 

Believe it or not, the market is actually quite self-regulating. It is true, price jumps do occur, but they occur because of the nature of ingame updates (such as new, high level content, ie; Chaotic Weapons).

 

I agree with your point in the article about Dungeoneering affecting the market, but it's not the only reason. The demand for items like Godswords are affected by "Other goods", be it a substitute or a compliment. With the release of Chaotic weapons, which has better stats than the prior 'best', Godswords and other weapons will drop because there is a substitute.

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On the ficitonal article Unforeseen Consequences, the only thing I'm dissatisfied with is that the man refers to the child as Arrav. He wasn't known by this name until he had his encounter with goblins which cursed him by that name.

It would have been nicer if that was left out and we could just deduce who he was.

It's because he's a reincarnation of Arrav of course.

 

Or hell, maybe it's just a common name nowadays. *shrug*

 

Yes, but, did you remember who called him Arrav? It wasn't the people who found him, but the mysterious cloaked man. You guys missed the point. The point is that the legendary Arrav of Avarrocka is originally from the future (the time period of Runescape right now), and the cloaked man brought him back in time. Later he would be officially named Arrav by the group that found him after he encountered the goblins, but the cloaked man already knew this.

 

Hopefully that clears up some confusion.

-Runescape Addict --- Seven-time Writer for the Tip.It Times-

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Hyperinflation is bad, but the moderate level of inflation we were seeing pre-dungoneering was good. This deflation we have now is downright unhealthy for the economy, higher level players especially as most of our moneymakers are suffering. Remember, the RS economy self regulates in that rares absorb most inflation.

 

Really though, good articles, except that mistake in the economics article.

 

In Economics, the self regulating nature of supply and demand is generally referred to as 'The Price Mechanism' or 'The Invisible Hand'

 

Excuse me, I meant to say that rares absorb most of inflation and are effected by it more then other items. I don't know the specific term for when a commodity does this so I just called it self regulation.

PM me in game anytime

 

It's a lot easier then that for an idiot to sound smart on the internet.

 

That's exactly what you're doing right now... just saying.

 

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I'll take that one :) (Nifflin asked someone to exlain why Deflation is better then Inflation is before he editted his post)

 

First, lets establish that we are talking about RuneScape economics, not real life...

 

Inflation, when it happens, is caused by some source introducing ever more money into the economy, and doing this faster than it is taken out...

Deflation is the opposite of this...

 

In an inflated RuneScape economy, certain money makers are also getting progressively better, because the price of the items generated rise with that inflation (for example, Red Chinchompa's)... Others are lagging behind, because their ultimate cash-in point is dependant on, for example, alch values (like Yew Longbows)... This causes people to leave parts of the game alone and all flock to the one thing that makes money fast enough (GWD or Slayer for example) to keep up with the rate of inflation...

 

In a deflated RuneScape economy, those moneymakers that could keep up with inflation, are now not so appealing anymore. And since the rates of GP/hr income of all the stuff that you can do in RuneScape are now much closer together, the choice of jobs is much greater, allowing you to do what you want, without falling behind financially... Deflation can only go up to a certain point, because at some point alching becomes the superior source of GP influx for the economy, putting a break on deflation...

 

 

I am making this argument deliberately in a RuneScape setting without bots... The problem right now is that bots have infiltrated the mining, fishing, hunting and woodcutting market, making the unbuyable gathering skills completely improfitable, all because prices are kept low due to high supply rates... And since skilling has been reduced to a 2nd rate moneymaker, without a sufficiently visible rise in the products form those skills, noone really cares as they can still buy their stuff rather cheap...

 

The simple fact that Bots and Inflation cancel eachother out to some extend on a lot of items worries me...

 

 

To Nifflin's new post:

Rares do not absorb inflation as it is not somethign every single person in the RuneScape community aims for, nor do rares take GP out of the economy...

What you meant was that Rares inflate themselves... A product that is desirable because of its high price, and therefor will increase in price... Such an item is called (wait for it, I'm looking)...

Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
Tip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.
MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




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I'll take that one :) (Nifflin asked someone to exlain why Deflation is better then Inflation is before he editted his post)

 

First, lets establish that we are talking about RuneScape economics, not real life...

 

Inflation, when it happens, is caused by some source introducing ever more money into the economy, and doing this faster than it is taken out...

Deflation is the opposite of this...

 

In an inflated RuneScape economy, certain money makers are also getting progressively better, because the price of the items generated rise with that inflation (for example, Red Chinchompa's)... Others are lagging behind, because their ultimate cash-in point is dependant on, for example, alch values (like Yew Longbows)... This causes people to leave parts of the game alone and all flock to the one thing that makes money fast enough (GWD or Slayer for example) to keep up with the rate of inflation...

 

In a deflated RuneScape economy, those moneymakers that could keep up with inflation, are now not so appealing anymore. And since the rates of GP/hr income of all the stuff that you can do in RuneScape are now much closer together, the choice of jobs is much greater, allowing you to do what you want, without falling behind financially... Deflation can only go up to a certain point, because at some point alching becomes the superior source of GP influx for the economy, putting a break on deflation...

 

 

I am making this argument deliberately in a RuneScape setting without bots... The problem right now is that bots have infiltrated the mining, fishing, hunting and woodcutting market, making the unbuyable gathering skills completely improfitable, all because prices are kept low due to high supply rates... And since skilling has been reduced to a 2nd rate moneymaker, without a sufficiently visible rise in the products form those skills, noone really cares as they can still buy their stuff rather cheap...

 

The simple fact that Bots and Inflation cancel eachother out to some extend on a lot of items worries me...

 

 

To Nifflin's new post:

Rares do not absorb inflation as it is not somethign every single person in the RuneScape community aims for, nor do rares take GP out of the economy...

What you meant was that Rares inflate themselves... A product that is desirable because of its high price, and therefor will increase in price... Such an item is called (wait for it, I'm looking)...

 

Did you ever think that the problem might be alchemy limiting certain skills? It seems like this is the problem you outline in your argument here for the separation of profitability in different activities. However, many activities are more profitable simply because they are more demanding in time investment and in their requirements. These activities justifiably keep up with inflation.

 

You are essentially saying that having moneymakers close together is better, but I ask you, is it really? What incentive would anyone have to boss hunt if they could afk yews for just as much money. Inflation creates demand across markets and encourages trade. This is beneficial to everyone because they are encouraged to buy products and the economy can function as efficiently as possible through subsequent demand and competition between suppliers.

 

The following experts agree with me. Here and here.

 

It seems like you are mistaking the problems of alching imposed limits and bots with something else. The so called problems you see inflation as causing are in face caused by other things.

 

Oh and I would like to add, calling me an idiot in your earlier post constitutes as a personal attack and is against Tip.It rules. No reason to be uncivil.

PM me in game anytime

 

It's a lot easier then that for an idiot to sound smart on the internet.

 

That's exactly what you're doing right now... just saying.

 

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I called your statement idiotic, you clearly grasp what RuneScape economics are like :)

 

But yeah, your point of relaxing alch prices in order to reflect the markets value is certainly an interestng take on it, although I doubt that the GE could even keep up with just the plain items (it already has trouble with some of the more expensive ones)...

 

I am most intrigued by this question you ask:

You are essentially saying that having moneymakers close together is better, but I ask you, is it really? What incentive would anyone have to boss hunt if they could afk yews for just as much money.

The fact is that we then have a choice... And in this example; more people AFK-ing yews rather than bosshunt, would make Yews less profitable, and monster drops more profitable, resulting in people switching back to bosshunting...

 

Btw, your links provide examples of real world economics, which are substantially different than here in RuneScape... I believe I already responded to that on this thread, because someone else also made the same argument with real life economic articles ot back them up...

Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
Tip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.
MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




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And in response to your first attack...

 

Idiocy rank: A few fries short of a happy meal...

Nifflin, on 18 October 2010 - 07:17 AM, said:

Hyperinflation is bad, but the moderate level of inflation we were seeing pre-dungoneering was good. This deflation we have now is downright unhealthy for the economy, higher level players especially as most of our moneymakers are suffering. Remember, the RS economy self regulates in that rares absorb most inflation.

 

 

"Moderate" level of inflation from the pre-dungeoneering time was anything but moderate... I dare infact call it hyper inflation because it made other moneymakers MUCH more profitable as well... Which is also the point of saying inflation is bad. It rips forms of money making out of proportion with one another, and therefor will leave huge portions of the game unused...

Rares do not absorb any inflation at all, because (as ALSO pointed out in my article) rares are not traded for JUST gp anymore... On top of that, the GP does not leave the game when buying a rare...

 

Now. I can pretty confidently say that we were not experiencing hyperinflation, especially if you would take time to compare prices over the recent years (of items not tied down by alchemy) to prices in countries which have historically experienced hyperinflation.

 

Therefor we must proceed in the understanding that so far Runscape inflation has been "normal" inflation.

 

In Runescape forms of money are not out of proportion with one another because of inflation, it is because of bots and alching. Now as for parts of the game being unused I would like to point out that regardless of profitability, parts of the game are used it they are fun. Example, Castle Wars. Then parts of the game being unused is not the fault of inflation but rather because they aren't fun. The conclusion shouldn't be that "Inflation is bad" but that parts of the game aren't fun enough or are unprofitable for other reasons.

 

Edit: Lol, now our responses are getting a bit confusing time wise.

PM me in game anytime

 

It's a lot easier then that for an idiot to sound smart on the internet.

 

That's exactly what you're doing right now... just saying.

 

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No worries, just say which post you are replying to (I refuse to participate in quote trains :P)

 

I do not know what the current levels of inflation are, but looking back, the RS economy is more inflated than it used ot be...

The luxury the world has, is that it can always switch to a different currency, or have the entire country go bankrupt (Weimar Republic anyone?), the RuneScape economy can not...

The Luxury the world does not have, is that, whatever you do, there is some job out there that will generate the same income no matter what (for example alching yew longbows)... Now I would not like to lose that, as it is a nice and steady money maker for low-mid level players... This is another reason why I do not want to see alching touched...

 

But those jobs do not rise or fall in income with inflation, and that brings me back to my previous point of having the GP/hr income be closer together...

 

I'm willing to blame bots for some jobs being unprofitable (hunting chins), but fixed-to-alchemy-value jobs are not done because inflation pushed the GP/hr income of not-tied-to-alch-value jobs out of proportion with one another (this may need clarification :P)... So normal or not, its still too much...

 

The point we'll probably agree on is; some inflation is good, but only up to a certain point... Then somethign has to happen to regulate prices (preferably something that cannot be avoided with junktrading)

Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
Tip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.
MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




Check us out!
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==> No seriously, if you like FREE GP, XP and Dung tokens, as well as Community, Opportunity and above all FUN... <==
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Not only do bots provide an insecure supply, but because they are operating in such large numbers, they push the ones out that do. Many skillers have moved on to greener pastures for various reasons (DnD's and SC make it much faster training, for example), but one of those reasons is the simple fact that hardcore skilling does not have the same financial benefits anymore compared to alternative methods in particular PVP Worlds. The results are unstable prices at best, and destruction of peoples livelihood at worst.

 

How is a bot's supply insecure?

I stated this in my article, but I will repeat it for you; They are there at the whim of Jagex' security updates, and will to go out and mass-ban these things, none of which are predictable...

That's what I thought. When was the last time you saw a mass ban? How long did it take for you to see bots spring up after that? Botters will still bot. If the numbers are as large as you claim, it doesn't matter if half of them get banned.

Botters are in it for either XP, or GP. Botters that are in it for GP are likely to sell their stuff more often than those who are in it for XP, before they get banned. Since there are so many of them, it doesn't matter how often they get banned. They'll still sell raw materials. Botters that don't sell their stuff and get banned have no effect on anything, when a bot is banned its as if they never existed (unless they're higher in level, and have interacted with the game for a long time as a real person). High level players that get banned are likely to leave the game with very large amounts of GP. There's some deflation for you.

 

 

 

Lie 2: Merchant Clans are a bad thing.

Touchy statement to be disagreeing with, I know, as it always affects people directly. But let's throw the rules and ethics out the window for a moment.

I'm not sure people have a problem with what they're doing (buying low and selling high), its a problem with how they're doing it (duping people to believe that buying out item x will net everyone a profit).

They're also upset with the temporary freeze in the market - it doesn't matter how much they're willing to pay for an item, they just can't get it (or anything related). Many things in runescape are done on a whim, which is why stocking up on everything you might ever need isn't possible. Its not bank space, its GP.

 

Did I mention I have no sympathy for impatient people? If you need it NAO, RAIT NAO!, then l2bpatient...

Can you feel sympathy for the noobs that buy into merchanting clans, and lose all their GP?

 

Lie 3: Dungeoneering has no impact on the economy.

So uh, who told you this? Can you find 3 people in the past 6 months on the forums that have said this?

 

Fortunately, I do not only use forums to see what some people are thinking... But I think I get the implication of your statement here, you think that noone believed this lie in the first place... Just as I can't be bothered to quote everyone that actually did believe this, you cannot claim noone did not believe it... However... Whether or not people believe Dungeoneering had an impact on the economy, most people will think of that impact of being the cost to keep Chaotic equipment up and running... Not the fact that many people suddenly stopped 'participating' in RuneScape...

 

This is a troll, and you will be reported for it...

I want to know who is thinking this. I haven't seen any posts arguing counter to this. I'm not asking you to defend your point, I'm asking you to source it.

 

This next one deserves a seperate mention...

Idiocy rank: A very special kind of stupid...

No, I am a firm believer that you should not start cleaning the spill if you haven't fixed the leak yet. It diverts your attention from the main problem at hand, and everyone knows I am talking about the PVP drop table still.

As I posted before, the PVP drop table would've fixed itself. Here's one for you - I've been PVPing a lot the past month, and guess what. 75% of the value of my drops have been sold to the GE - items that weren't worth alching. You know what that means if it held true for everyone (no way of knowing because I don't P2P PVP)? PVP causes deflation.

 

Hang on, if I get you correctly, you sold some drops you got on the PVP worlds on the GE and therefor PVP causes inflation? First of all, get it in your skull please that nothing in RuneScape fixes itself, not even the economy, and ESPECIALLY not a droptable as it remains EXACTLY the same without Jagex updating it... Second, your drops also consisted most likely of statues which are traded directly for GP... This GP flows into the economy much faster than alching or monster drops or thieves do, and therefor it caused a massive spike in the common trade index (learn about it)... Selling something to the GE does not remove GP form the game, the item goes to someone else, and the GP goes from them to you; aka nothing gets added or removed...

 

Now I can already hear your next argument; "But if more items come into the game, the supply gets higher, so prices drop; and tadaa, its deflation." All very untrue because this is not what inflation is. Inflation is when there is an ever increasing amount of GP available PER PERSON... If there used to be X amount of GP for 10 million players, and now there is 3 times X amount of GP available for 12 million players (and not 30 million) it is inflation... Everyone has (on average) more money to buy stuff with, and therefor prices go up...

 

The reason why this is bad is because it kills the diversity of the game, something RuneScape is very famous for...

Lets reduce this scenario to a very specific example.

There are two players and 10 GP in a fictitious runescape economy. There is also one iron scimitar. That's it. Very simple. I kill a player in PVP, and get 5 GP and an iron scimitar as a drop. Now there are 15 GP in my fictitious runescape economy, and there are two iron scimitars. Deflation occurred, even though GP entered the game.

Yes, I know runescape's economy is not that simple, but my point is very clear. From PVP, I received many more items worth something than I received GP. I include alchable items in the GP category.

 

The other point I tried to make last time was that PVP inflation would solve itself. This is conceptually a little more difficult to grasp, but I don't feel like explaining it again.

 

 

Allow me to paint a picture of how bad inflation really has been over the years. Coal has historically been the go-to item to get a read on it. It hovered between 150GP and 175GP just before the changes in the PVP drop table, and it just popped back over the 300GP mark again after the post-bonus XP weekend slump.

You're an active player in RuneScape. Why does it matter to you if one GP buys 1/100th of a piece of coal, or 1/300th, so long as 1 piece of coal buys 1/10th of an uncut emerald?

It matters because I cannot use the GE to trade 10 coal directly for an uncut emerald... GE is supposed to be the tool of the economy, using GP as a lubricant... See my previous answer on why inflation is bad...

So you mine ten coal, and you want an uncut emerald. You cannot find someone to trade you ten coal for an uncut emerald, so you go to the GE. You trade your 10 coal for gp, then buy an uncut emerald on the GE. Why does it matter to you if the GP was 1500 or 3000?

99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me!

 

♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thought
Have some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪

♪♪ And I'm not done
And I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪

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No worries, just say which post you are replying to (I refuse to participate in quote trains :P)

 

I do not know what the current levels of inflation are, but looking back, the RS economy is more inflated than it used ot be...

The luxury the world has, is that it can always switch to a different currency, or have the entire country go bankrupt (Weimar Republic anyone?), the RuneScape economy can not...

The Luxury the world does not have, is that, whatever you do, there is some job out there that will generate the same income no matter what (for example alching yew longbows)... Now I would not like to lose that, as it is a nice and steady money maker for low-mid level players... This is another reason why I do not want to see alching touched...

 

But those jobs do not rise or fall in income with inflation, and that brings me back to my previous point of having the GP/hr income be closer together...

 

I'm willing to blame bots for some jobs being unprofitable (hunting chins), but fixed-to-alchemy-value jobs are not done because inflation pushed the GP/hr income of not-tied-to-alch-value jobs out of proportion with one another... (this may need clarification :P)

 

Well it also comes down to efficiency. A lot of RS is about bringing exp into the economy. Let me explain, bones are valuable because they bring prayer exp into Runescape. Their prices are fixed relative to each other based on the amount of prayer exp they bring in. Now what this does is means that different types of bone collecting are differently profitable based on the rate of collection and the total exp they bring into the game (which translates into their price). This is the same for pretty much every item, including combat items which could be argued to bring meele exp into the game.

 

Now what I argue causes price differences is not inflation but different demands for different types of experience. Some methods are gimped however by alching, but this is not the fault of inflation but rather an unnatural mechanism that has been introduced into the game.

PM me in game anytime

 

It's a lot easier then that for an idiot to sound smart on the internet.

 

That's exactly what you're doing right now... just saying.

 

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Fortunately, I do not only use forums to see what some people are thinking... But I think I get the implication of your statement here, you think that noone believed this lie in the first place... Just as I can't be bothered to quote everyone that actually did believe this, you cannot claim noone did not believe it... However... Whether or not people believe Dungeoneering had an impact on the economy, most people will think of that impact of being the cost to keep Chaotic equipment up and running... Not the fact that many people suddenly stopped 'participating' in RuneScape...

 

This is a troll, and you will be reported for it...

I want to know who is thinking this. I haven't seen any posts arguing counter to this. I'm not asking you to defend your point, I'm asking you to source it.

 

 

Hang on, if I get you correctly, you sold some drops you got on the PVP worlds on the GE and therefor PVP causes inflation? First of all, get it in your skull please that nothing in RuneScape fixes itself, not even the economy, and ESPECIALLY not a droptable as it remains EXACTLY the same without Jagex updating it... Second, your drops also consisted most likely of statues which are traded directly for GP... This GP flows into the economy much faster than alching or monster drops or thieves do, and therefor it caused a massive spike in the common trade index (learn about it)... Selling something to the GE does not remove GP form the game, the item goes to someone else, and the GP goes from them to you; aka nothing gets added or removed...

 

Now I can already hear your next argument; "But if more items come into the game, the supply gets higher, so prices drop; and tadaa, its deflation." All very untrue because this is not what inflation is. Inflation is when there is an ever increasing amount of GP available PER PERSON... If there used to be X amount of GP for 10 million players, and now there is 3 times X amount of GP available for 12 million players (and not 30 million) it is inflation... Everyone has (on average) more money to buy stuff with, and therefor prices go up...

 

The reason why this is bad is because it kills the diversity of the game, something RuneScape is very famous for...

Lets reduce this scenario to a very specific example.

There are two players and 10 GP in a fictitious runescape economy. There is also one iron scimitar. That's it. Very simple. I kill a player in PVP, and get 5 GP and an iron scimitar as a drop. Now there are 15 GP in my fictitious runescape economy, and there are two iron scimitars. Deflation occurred, even though GP entered the game.

Yes, I know runescape's economy is not that simple, but my point is very clear. From PVP, I received many more items worth something than I received GP. I include alchable items in the GP category.

 

The other point I tried to make last time was that PVP inflation would solve itself. This is conceptually a little more difficult to grasp, but I don't feel like explaining it again.

 

 

So you mine ten coal, and you want an uncut emerald. You cannot find someone to trade you ten coal for an uncut emerald, so you go to the GE. You trade your 10 coal for gp, then buy an uncut emerald on the GE. Why does it matter to you if the GP was 1500 or 3000?

 

 

1.It's clearly explained in his article - it's based off the common trade index of rswiki.

2.Well, I'm not engaged in PVP and I cannot tell myself - but do you really get more value off normal items than off statuettes :huh:

3.the problem is that not all items sell instantly. You cannot expect to be able to sell all your flax immediately to buy that barrows armour. Therefore, people are collecting at least partly gp, not items.

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To reply to one at a time:

 

1st point:

Bots are an insecure supply as Jagex stated repeatedly that they are still nowhere near undetectable... So can we asume that mass bannings will happen? You're probably right about the point you make about deflation there, and you may even be right in how quickly bots adapt... But how long do you think jagex is going to take to defeat the problem at the source?

 

2nd point:

I learned the hard way that people cannot trim my armor ;) it is something everyone must go through at some point in their RuneScape career...

Do I feel sorry for the newby? Maybe I do maybe I dont, but that was not the point I was trying to make (I DID say I threw the rules and ethics out the window, didn't I?)...

 

3rd point:

I talk to a lot of people when gathering material for my articles, and this came up once... It turned into an interesting discussion, and after that I asked just about everyone the same question how they felt Dungeoneering was impacting the RuneScape economy... Every single one mentioned the upkeep of the items being a money sink, but only a few had given it enough thought to actually see the point of not participating in the rest of RuneScape while you're in Daemonheim...

 

I do not think it is neccisary for me to write down the names of people I talked to about this... I have been asked before to give data on where I got my numbers (see the 'Share and share a hate' article), but I did not name any quantities or proportions in my article...

 

4th point:

Did you consider that the items that are worth something may have no economic impact at all? Vesta's, Corrupt items, brawlers, food... It completely dissapears given enough time without ever adding any weight in the counter-inflation scale... On top of that; the people you killed ALSO lost items... Add the proper things up and then see me again plz :) (this should back up Joanananas' point as well)...

 

5th point:

Your example was flawed form the beginning as neither Coal nor Emeralds nor any of the other items rise EXACTLY as quick as any other item in RuneScape. Some other items are pretty much fixed in price for various reasons, and sometimes you cannot trade immediatly. All that aside, the only currency in this town is GP...

 

This goes to Nifflin as well:

XP is untradable, GP is not. If we could trade in our XP to undo the stuff we made with it and sell the raw products for higher prices, the argument would be valid...

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That aside, I really liked this week's articles!

 

The economy article was great, it shed light upon different parts of the discussion and brought rational arguments into it. There's just one thing I disagree with, and that's merch/manipulation clans. I hope I haven't misunderstood you that you mean manipulation clans too. While your argument itself may be valid and I agree with it, there's a bigger problem. As nice as it would be for everyone to know that, this won't happen. Now, you say it's their own problem. But it isn't. Why do we all have this muddle with street prices, unbuyable items in the ge etc? Because if the ge upated every second, 24/7, it would be easily manipulated.

The problem is that any price manipulation prevents a ge update to update prices more often. And that's an update that would really be needed.

 

 

second article: 100% agree ;) I'm on my way to a questcape atm, and if there weren't quests in runescape, there probably wouldn't be anything to hold me(except maybe penguins)

 

third article: Generally I liked it but...I don't know, I don't like the idea of arrav being brought from the future. It just doesn't suit me. sorry ;)

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In response to Ts_Stormrage

 

I understand that exp is untradeable, however it is what assigns values to many items. The difference in how people value different types of exp and the requirements for gaining the different types of exp create discrepancies in the profitability of money making methods. Not inflation. Back to my bones example, inflation effects all bones equally, the discrepancy in their use as moneymaking methods is due to the requirements for the more efficient methods of obtaining them. As I outlined earlier, what inflation does it makes some moneymakers relativity less profitable but only because those moneymakers are tied down by their alch values. I can't think of a case where inflation has caused a discrepancy in two moneymaking methods which are not alch dependent. Thus the problem would be some moneymaking methods being tied down by alch values, not inflation making the rest relitivly more lucrative. The solution would be a reworking to the alchemy system, but thats a whole other discussion.

 

I would also like to say I immensely enjoyed your article too, apart from what we have been discussing of course.

PM me in game anytime

 

It's a lot easier then that for an idiot to sound smart on the internet.

 

That's exactly what you're doing right now... just saying.

 

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1st point:

Bots are an insecure supply as Jagex stated repeatedly that they are still nowhere near undetectable... So can we asume that mass bannings will happen? You're probably right about the point you make about deflation there, and you may even be right in how quickly bots adapt... But how long do you think jagex is going to take to defeat the problem at the source?

Jagex will never defeat botting, and trying to "defeat" it will be the death of runescape. When the last server shuts down in runescape, there will still be bots trying to click at nothing.

 

2nd point:

I learned the hard way that people cannot trim my armor ;) it is something everyone must go through at some point in their RuneScape career...

Do I feel sorry for the newby? Maybe I do maybe I dont, but that was not the point I was trying to make (I DID say I threw the rules and ethics out the window, didn't I?)...

I know the point you're trying to make, but I'm looking at this from a different perspective. Merchanting clans are bad because it parts fools with their money.

But anyhow, from a "fight inflation" perspective, they're a "good" thing. People who have the goal of simply hoarding GP take it off the market.

 

3rd point:

I talk to a lot of people when gathering material for my articles, and this came up once... It turned into an interesting discussion, and after that I asked just about everyone the same question how they felt Dungeoneering was impacting the RuneScape economy... Every single one mentioned the upkeep of the items being a money sink, but only a few had given it enough thought to actually see the point of not participating in the rest of RuneScape while you're in Daemonheim...

Wasn't aware of those discussions. All the other points were based on things I've seen many times around the forums.

 

4th point:

Did you consider that the items that are worth something may have no economic impact at all? Vesta's, Corrupt items, brawlers, food... It completely dissapears given enough time without ever adding any weight in the counter-inflation scale... On top of that; the people you killed ALSO lost items... Add the proper things up and then see me again plz :) (this should back up Joanananas' point as well)...

Yes, I realize that. I usually PK with no armour, risking a rune scimitar, a rune 2h, and an amulet of power. Usually my drops are a scimitar, 2h (two items they're wielding), and something like a platebody or a kiteshield (and lots of amulets). I don't have the screenshots of my collective drops on me right now, but I'll tally the drops later. Also those corrupt drops are few and far between, I usually gain about 50 pieces of rune armour before a corrupt drop.

 

5th point:

Your example was flawed form the beginning as neither Coal nor Emeralds nor any of the other items rise EXACTLY as quick as any other item in RuneScape. Some other items are pretty much fixed in price for various reasons, and sometimes you cannot trade immediatly. All that aside, the only currency in this town is GP...

It might take a day to complete a transaction, but inflation is a long term thing. Active participants in the runescape economy shouldn't notice it at all.

99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me!

 

♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thought
Have some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪

♪♪ And I'm not done
And I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪

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Aight, I'll walk with Nifflin and Seesall down this lane as this proves to be an immensly interesting debate...

 

Suppose the alching system is redone in such a way that alching items will yield enough money, after having been based on what moneymakers there are and where the alch moneymaker should be, and continues to adjust according to inflation levels (aka more GP in total = higher prices of items and raw materials = higher alch values)... Meaning inflation is never an issue anymore as your income rises relative to inflation...

 

Wouldnt this cause a runaway effect with this 'inflation'?

Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
Tip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.
MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




Check us out!
wildsig3.gif
clanmotif.png
==> No seriously, if you like FREE GP, XP and Dung tokens, as well as Community, Opportunity and above all FUN... <==
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obviously.

 

the correct solution is to remove alchemy.

 

and could you please stop saying "this is runescape economics LOL" and asserting that real life economic tools and principles don't apply for no good reason whatsoever? runescape is like a microcosm of a real world economy, and they most certainly do apply. thanks.

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