Dungeoneering Again

[archimage_a]

Archi, I don't think that's such a great idea. Namely because you can perform awesome magic at level 5, if you rolled a 19-20. (Meteor, for example)

 

 

Comparatively, no sane magician would try that awesome magic until at least level 10. There is no point in balancing the specialisms, because people always have options. They can try and use all kinds of magic and never become good at a single one, they can focus on a few (like a magician) and get medium-high skills, or become masters at one or two (sorcerers) and become masters.

 

Basically if you choose to train two skills compared to five, it's likely that your two skills will be considerably higher than someone with five. Then if you add the fact that sorcerers cannot fail for spells that they can cast, then sorcery is clearly better and I would switch my air magic skill into ice magic if the system were implemented.

 

Yeah, I was thinking about setting it at level 1...But long term wise 5 is reasonable.

 

People don't always have options...If this was DND people would be limited to 4 or 5 spells...

And I am so annoyed when people wander into somewhere were X magic has an advantage and instantly start using X magic...

 

 

And, as we have seen, creating a spinning steam tornado, with fire, water and wind can net you .8 or .9 XP at a time...So you level at the same speed but in more skills...So how is that even vaguely fair?

 

And Sorcery isn't 'clearly better' because it limits you to two magics...No longer can you walk through the whole game magic spamming whatever situation you find yourself in.

[The_Mather1]

You just started casting magics to try and mess with the bear. And it is totally related that the fact that you self-injure yourself that caused youto look like an idiot, and caused you to, Y'know, get concussions and stuff unnececarily?

I would've tried killing it barehanded if I had to, but you see I'm not so stupid that I go hand-to-hand against a creature more than ten times my weight unless there's no other option, I draw the limit for that on elkbirds.

 

And even though I cause my own injuries I'm doing that the right way, my injuries either fill one of two cathegories; indirectly inflicted - serves a point for the character (like the torn flesh in my face after the first sound spirit) or directly inflicted - serves an actual pourpose (like concussion for losing direction or wide jaw for sound).

 

Archi, my so called luck has struck twice out of two opportunities, my strategies may be close to insane, but they are effective.

[Earth]

Eh, i'd stick to healing, natureing, and axing. But the Telepath was usefull, Geomancey is weak for me, and my other skills are crafting only. (Gtg catch the bus. "We gotta haul ass if we wanna get to class, we're done with the show so lets go go go!")

[Retech]

It's not remotely fair if that actually went on, but usually either the spell is harder for using a buncha different magic or the spell is the same level and you get the same amount of experience. That tornado that Mask did was a one-time thing. He probaly rolled a 20, and he was at level 1, so logically he would get considerable experience from that.

 

If you look at my exp records, you'll find that my max is...0.4 exp, I think.

 

 

And it will balance out, because level 1 fire magic in a forest will never be more effective than someone with level 10. It just takes a bit until magic reaches level 10, and you can clearly see the difference.

 

I am saying that following the path of sorcery is already balanced without its effect of succeeding 100% of the time, or even succeeding more often.

 

Level 2 Ice magic

Level 2 Water magic

Level 2 Air magic

Level 2 Light magic

Level 2 Healing magic

 

vs

 

Level 10 Fire magic

 

I'm sure that the fire magician would most likely win, even though water is usually effective against fire. Then if we say that sorcerers succeed all the time, the fire magician would start pumping out huge beams of lava or massive fire balls at will, and the five random skills magician would be confined to...ice shards or something.

 

---

 

Basically, sorcery without the suggested boost is already balanced because it sacrifices versatility for power. It would just be unbalanced with the bonus. The best way to keep it balanced would be to keep it the way it is, because if the game had no restrictions on what you could do (in terms of choosing which way to level), then everything is perfectly balanced. Whatever one person could do could be emulated by another person. No balance issues. :)

[archimage_a]

Sigh...Retech you don't get it...I am not concerned about fighting someone with 5 level 2 skills...I am concerned about fighting someone with 5 level 10 skills.

 

but usually either the spell is harder for using a buncha different magic or the spell is the same level and you get the same amount of experience.

There is no evidence to support the first point and there is a lot of evidence to contradict the second point.

 

Then if we say that sorcerers succeed all the time, the fire magician would start pumping out huge beams of lava or massive fire balls at will, and the five random skills magician would be confined to...ice shards or something.

Right...

So you are saying that a level 10 sorcerer wouldn't be able to pump out huge beams of lava and the level 2 magician would be able to summon huge Ice Boulders?

I don't really see your point here...The sorcerer should be more powerful...always succeeding just means that instead of 'I summon a fire shield' 'Nah, you fail and get an ice shard in the eye, you die', you summon the fire shield...

Perhaps half the check instead of always suceed? So 10 becomes 5?

 

 

And yes...In a straight fight the Sorcerer has an advantage...After the fight the sorcerer then has a light, no shelter, no healing, no help...while the magician heals themselves, summons a light and wanders off home without any real problem.

 

 

 

 

That is the idea in puring, you are better in 1 specific way and at a disadvantage the rest of the time.

At the moment puring gives you no advantage because it is unbalancing...

[Retech]

I'm saying that someone with two level 5 skills will usually defeat someone with five level 2 skills. There shouldn't be a game mechanic to change any of that.

 

 

The effective level of a sorcerer is 5 or 10 times higher than that of a magician. There's the fact that the sorcerer is roughly 5/2 stronger already by level, then we stack on the fact that it always succeeds. That's basically doubling your level.

 

The only reason that it seems that puring doesn't give an advantage is because there are no pures with extremely single skills that they can beat out someone with multiple lower level skills.

 

 

Basically I am saying that we should keep with the old "Do whatever you want, learn whatever you want" style of Dungeoneering. Then try to work out an advantage of that, if you can. Please point out the evidence about not gaining the same amount of experience with the same level spell (using more than one kind of magic). I don't think there is anything where I have gained more, and I don't believe that you have a record of what Mask did. Just pointing that out, because I don't have much of a reason to be biased, since I'm not the one benefitting.

 

---

 

If we do have this magic system, we should be able to re-arrange our magic experience though.

[The_Mather1]

After the fight the sorcerer then has a light, no shelter, no healing, no help...while the magician heals themselves, summons a light and wanders off home without any real problem.

Healing is not always a neccessity (living proof here), and there is no skill that is entirely unable to summon help and make a shelter. Take sound for example, a sound golem should be able to help you (annoying as it may be) and you could use the vibrations caused by sound to dig yourself a cavern in just about anything.

 

Anyways puring is always a bad choice, however focusing is not. If you pure in for example aura, which is the only magic I can think off that would be at a disadvantage, then you are just stupid.

 

And before you say light magic, a laser would work wonders with just about anything.

[archimage_a]

I'm saying that someone with two level 5 skills will usually defeat someone with five level 2 skills. There shouldn't be a game mechanic to change any of that.

 

Sigh. You are saying that 2*5 = 5*2.

I am saying that, at the moment, that is not the equation...

I am saying that, at the moment it works as:

2*5>2^5

 

Because people level faster when they combine skills...

 

The effective level of a sorcerer is 5 or 10 times higher than that of a magician. There's the fact that the sorcerer is roughly 5/2 stronger already by level, then we stack on the fact that it always succeeds. That's basically doubling your level.

 

Except they aren't 5/2 stronger already by level...

Fire mage fires magma beam

Other mage fires a light into the Fire mages eyes, combined with a water blast to disable the shield, with ice shards behind that to do damage, and then heals themselves.

 

The fire mage gets 1 action, the other mage gets 5 and calls it Fingus Attack so it only counts as 1.

 

The only reason that it seems that puring doesn't give an advantage is because there are no pures with extremely single skills that they can beat out someone with multiple lower level skills.

Doesn't that contradict what you just said?

 

Basically I am saying that we should keep with the old "Do whatever you want, learn whatever you want" style of Dungeoneering. Then try to work out an advantage of that, if you can.

Which is what I would advocate...Except Ross has already said that isn't the style we are playing with...We are playing with a balancing style which predicts the max possible thing a skill could do in the optimal situation, and applies universally.

 

Please point out the evidence about not gaining the same amount of experience with the same level spell (using more than one kind of magic). I don't think there is anything where I have gained more, and I don't believe that you have a record of what Mask did. Just pointing that out, because I don't have much of a reason to be biased, since I'm not the one benefitting.

 

I would also like to point out that I am not just going 'I want a benefit, give it to me' I am saying 'I want to give up skills I will never use to get a clear and defined benefit...since at the moment the system being used is being abused.

 

You are saying 'No, I demand you keep those skills you won't use.'

You are saying 'I demand you have to hold on to dead weight.'

 

And I don't have the evidence as I am not the log keeper and Ross doesn't make the logs public...

As I said before, I am not majorly concerned how other people want to play the game...But I want to make sure that roleplaying is actually encouraged, rather than finding the most creative way to combine the five pagan elements and words ending in -mancy in a sentance.

 

 

 

Revised idea.

Common Practitioner: Jack of all magic trades but master of none...All magic skills limited at level 1.

 

Magician: More focused than a Common Practitioner, with 5 magics that can be trained to any level. Can use other magics but can't gain XP.

 

Sorcerer: Master of two magics, with double the chances of success. Can't use any other forms of magic.

 

And Mather...You can...You can also use your sword as a fire sparker, you can cut down trees for shelter with an axe, you can use throwing knives as tent pegs...You can also use weapons to intimidate, and to cut up animals.

Yet weapon skills are given extra XP because they are less versatile than magic.

Though, of course, getting a sword enchanted to fire ice beams is totally different. :rolleyes:

[Seraphi]

This is getting kind of annoying now.

 

I don't want to introduce a system which reduces the amount of freedom people have, which is the main reason I didn't implement an idea like that at the start... But you do not need weapon skills to do those things, Archi. If you have a set of knives, you don't need to be a master knife thrower to use them as tent pegs... The weapon skills really only apply to combat.

 

How about I just balance all xp? From now, the average will be .3. If you use something with two schools, you get a .2 and a .1, and if you use something with 3, you get .1, .1, and .1. That sorts the xp problem out.

 

As for magic versatility, while I still do not see a problem with it, I will try to allow more freedom. If you say something stupid, like a cold fire chariot or a hot ice sword, I will give you a warning. Persistant stupidity will lead to divine retribution in the form of a thunderbolt to your characters head. There, that is the versatility sorted.

 

Is everyone happy now?

[The_Mather1]

Stupidity in the form of using stupid spells or in the way I do it?

[archimage_a]

Yeah, the .3 system works.

 

As for versatility...I don't really see there needs to be a ruling on it...Either something works or something doesn't work.

Like Mather's Radiomancy...Its not like Ross is only ever availible during a session to ask how XYZ would work.

[Seraphi]

Basically, Mather, trying to make one kind of magic perform the roles of all the others, as was the case with the cold fire and hot ice in the previous dungeoneering games.

[The_Mather1]

Ok, so basically it's more of a limitation that most specifically goes towards warp.

[Seraphi]

Nah, warp has very few limitations, really, but it tires you out very quickly and is fairly prone to failure.

[Earth]

I think that that system works out the best. I was going to suggest a system that basically uses memory. Say you had 1 skill point in 10 different skills each. If you tried to 'farm' (Use lower risk spells to get experience) then it would incurr an experience penalty because you could keep mixing up what spell does what. Higher risk spells (Above your level by at least another point) Won't incurr the penalty, but will be, obviously, more risky. Simple and effective.

[Retech]

Wasn't 0.3 basically how it was working before? Except that it was closer to 0.2

 

 

And will harder stuff generally give more exp than easier stuff (relative to level of course)?

 

---

 

Btw, for the thing that you said contradicted what I said before. I meant that there were no players in the game that had extremely powerful single skills such that they could beat people with multiple balanced skills. I was basically saying that it only seems that puring is disadvantaged because there isn't someone with level ten puring against someone with level 2s (not to mention we don't actually know each other).

 

Oh, random related thing, but what is the approximate level of Trent and Briar's magical skills? (Their most powerful)

[Seraphi]

Indeed, but it will still be divided up between all magic types used.

 

Also, I will never reveal something like the relative magic level of an NPC, because it could potentially be gamebreaking knowledge.

[Icuownage]

*I leave my level 30 fire mage to blow the crap outta everything*

 

:)

 

I only plan to use 1 - 2 schools of mage, so speciality here I come. XD

[The_Mather1]

Retech, you can't really put a level on them, they are more limited to spells than complexity.

[archimage_a]

Wasn't 0.3 basically how it was working before? Except that it was closer to 0.2

How do you train 3 skills at the same time if it was 0.2 average?

 

*Cackles at the flaw in the argument*

 

Anyway, not to get back into the argument, but premising that there are no pures capable of taking down any multi-mages does add credibility to my argument...

Obviously it may be that myself and nex have simply not been on as long as other people, which is fine...But in my experiance when I am on multi-mages skill faster.

 

 

 

Ico, when you finish your apprenticeship I may have a job for you. =)

[The_Mather1]

Archi, I've got a decent amount of xp and I never combine magics.

[Earth]

Same. Only timed i tried was when i didn't know that nature and necro conflicted with each other that badly. Sooo.. Maybe use rocks with thorns covering them, and launch them as projectiles.

[The_Mather1]

Earth, that's not combined magic, you're just using one kind of magic to launch what you made with another.

[archimage_a]

Not saying you can't get a decent amount of XP, I am just saying that I have noticed X and I was assurances that X isn't going to happen because X will screw up the game.

 

As Retech implies there has not been enough time past to say definatively one way or the other...But if we wait, and if X is happening, then the damage done will be harder to undo without nerfing people or boosting other people...

 

Since Ross has said X won't happen, and I trust Ross to not, except unintentionally, break his word, I am not overly concerned with the problem.

If X returns as a major problem then I will reconsider my position.

[Earth]

Which is a combination of the two..