Does Jagex really know its own game?

[LatinII]

I think the combat triangle is a pretty good example of how much Jagex knows about their own game. Not so much.

[SirIzenhime]

I think the combat triangle is a pretty good example of how much Jagex knows about their own game. Not so much.

 

At least they have it 66% right....they just need to fix range now.

[LatinII]

I think the combat triangle is a pretty good example of how much Jagex knows about their own game. Not so much.

 

At least they have it 66% right....they just need to fix range now.

 

Whaaat Magic is terrible for PvM...

[SirIzenhime]

Eh, I was think more of pvp :unsure:

[Greg295]

If you havent heard, the staff of light, arcane stream necklace, surge spells, and extreme magic all came out not so long ago, greatly updating magics usefullness. Barraging 440's isnt all that rare with +30% magic damage and potted to ~107.

 

Range on the otherhand is still bad, the only big update its gotten in a long time is the ccb. (not trying to say rigor is bad, i just dont see 150k tokens for 5% more damage + no curses as an extremely important addition.)

[green9090]

Magic- can be hybrided with melee to great effect in PvP, sucks on its own. No good whatsoever for PvM. Expensive as hell for low hits.

Melee- great for PvP, the indisputable best for PvM. Cheap and terrifyingly effective.

Ranged- Iffy for PvP, can be hybrided with melee to make it a little better. Quite decent for PvM, though still not as good as melee in most cases AND more expensive.

 

Yeah guys that triangle is SO GOOD.

 

The funny part is that this was true before chaotic weapons came out. And then chaotics come out and they have an opportunity to give ranged and magic great weapons, but instead they revolutionize melee combat and give magic and ranged crappy weapons that are only slightly better than their previous best weapons AND have stupidly low alch values. Jagex is asleep at the wheel when it comes to game balance.

[strilmus]

Part of the problem seems to be that they're fighting the past, since dg's inner system pulls it together much better than what goes on above ground.

[Greg295]

Magic isnt as usless as green said, solo rex and rocklobsters cannot be done (efficiently) without it, and if magic could hit as high as melee or even ~150 higher it would be too good for pvp. I cant imagine excaping a mage thats in good gear barraging nearly 600's while im frozen for 80% of the fight.

[green9090]

Magic isnt as usless as green said, solo rex and rocklobsters cannot be done (efficiently) without it, and if magic could hit as high as melee or even ~150 higher it would be too good for pvp. I cant imagine excaping a mage thats in good gear barraging nearly 600's while im frozen for 80% of the fight.

You're joking, right?

 

For PvM, that's two monsters (here, I'll toss in a third: ice strykewyrms) where magic is a decent option. That's not really balanced- I could go on for pages naming monsters where melee is the most effective style. For the vast majority of PvM combat, and especially the stuff worth killing, magic has no place.

 

You can't be killed by pure magic in dangerous PvP right now. It simply can't happen unless you're beyond idiotic. The only hope a mage has is maging you down and then pulling out a melee special weapon to finish you off. Add to this the fact that mages spend and risk SO much more than a pure meleer, and it's flat-out unfair.

 

Consider also that mages are SUPPOSED to dominate melee. That's what it's designed for- meleers should not fear d clawers more than mages.

[DeeKay]

I think the problem comes from the company listening or interacting too much with their player base.

A few years back, the game was updated the way Jagex felt it should - so as long as players played it, it was considered good. Listening to players might've got them off track, or changed their perception of what fun content should be like.

 

'Course, I'm just guessing. One thing that hasn't changed through the years, is what we know about how they makes decisions.

[SirIzenhime]

Magic isnt as usless as green said, solo rex and rocklobsters cannot be done (efficiently) without it, and if magic could hit as high as melee or even ~150 higher it would be too good for pvp. I cant imagine excaping a mage thats in good gear barraging nearly 600's while im frozen for 80% of the fight.

You're joking, right?

 

For PvM, that's two monsters (here, I'll toss in a third: ice strykewyrms) where magic is a decent option. That's not really balanced- I could go on for pages naming monsters where melee is the most effective style. For the vast majority of PvM combat, and especially the stuff worth killing, magic has no place.

 

You can't be killed by pure magic in dangerous PvP right now. It simply can't happen unless you're beyond idiotic. The only hope a mage has is maging you down and then pulling out a melee special weapon to finish you off. Add to this the fact that mages spend and risk SO much more than a pure meleer, and it's flat-out unfair.

 

Consider also that mages are SUPPOSED to dominate melee. That's what it's designed for- meleers should not fear d clawers more than mages.

 

Magic currently dominates meleers. The only issue is lack of KO power, and the fact that you can run/tele from fights.

Assuming you can't run from a fight (but you can still move around, kind of like the dueling arena), the only part of combat that needs to catch up is range now. If you put a meleer up against and mage, the mage is almost always going to win, if you put a meleer up against a ranger, the meleer is almost always going to win. However, if you put a ranger against a mager...they're quiet even, the ranger does have a slight edge, but magic is just so accurate now, range needs a bit of a boost now.

[green9090]

Magic currently dominates meleers. The only issue is lack of KO power, and the fact that you can run/tele from fights.

Assuming you can't run from a fight (but you can still move around, kind of like the dueling arena), the only part of combat that needs to catch up is range now. If you put a meleer up against and mage, the mage is almost always going to win, if you put a meleer up against a ranger, the meleer is almost always going to win. However, if you put a ranger against a mager...they're quiet even, the ranger does have a slight edge, but magic is just so accurate now, range needs a bit of a boost now.

So in an arbitrary and pointless segment of PvP, magic behaves how it ought to? Awesome, but I'd think they'd want to aim for fixing the combat triangle in places where it will actually have an effect on the game, like dangerous PvP and PvM. Even most safe PvP doesn't work according to the rules you had to invent to show a situation where magic is functional. Sure a mage can dish out a lot of damage in a game like Castle Wars, but they'll spend a ton to do it and still die easily to a gang of meleers.

 

And, even in duel arena conditions, assuming food is involved, melee still has a damn good shot at killing a mage. Once a meleer gets lucky enough to get close, they will tear a mage apart. With dragonhide on, that's not so difficult.

[Peronix]

Well in the example referenced Jagex always intended charm hunting to be a way of training hunter with a summoning side benefit. Though they neglect the fact that, unless something is the best method of training a particular skill available for a level range, the side benefits need to be pretty significant, which unfortunately in this case it isn't.

 

Jagex has a bad habit of hitting the low end of the balance beam when it comes to balancing content. Instead of making slight tweaks to hit somewhere in the middle, when something is initially unbalanced toward the high end it is invariably nerfed straight down to hell. And the [cabbage]ty part about this is that once it is on the low end it is VERY difficult to convince them that it needs to be rebalanced, even though the sheer absence of all life from the feature in question should be a screaming indication of such.

[SirIzenhime]

 

And, even in duel arena conditions, assuming food is involved, melee still has a damn good shot at killing a mage. Once a meleer gets lucky enough to get close, they will tear a mage apart. With dragonhide on, that's not so difficult.

 

Only if the mage is stupid and standing too close, it's really easy to just stand far away, then run away when he becomes unbound. With good mage gear, hitting on D hide is laughably easy now, even Karil and Armadyl aren't hard to hit anymore.

I do agree that making changes to places like BH and Pvp worlds is needed. The ability to run is just too...overpowered I guess :P

[Racheya]

Lets try not to make this into a discussion about the combat triangle.

 

Tbh I think that people are far too harsh on Jagex, as always. Of course they know their own game, but they just can't know how EVERY single player plays the game. You might think that you're representative of the general RS population but you're really quite not and not everyone plays the same and thinks the same as you. Sure, Jagex make mistakes (plenty of them) but that just means that they're human, not that they're clueless.

[green9090]

Lets try not to make this into a discussion about the combat triangle.

 

Tbh I think that people are far too harsh on Jagex, as always. Of course they know their own game, but they just can't know how EVERY single player plays the game. You might think that you're representative of the general RS population but you're really quite not and not everyone plays the same and thinks the same as you. Sure, Jagex make mistakes (plenty of them) but that just means that they're human, not that they're clueless.

I don't think you really understand the combat triangle tangent if you think it's off topic.

 

The point is that the combat triangle is one blatant example of Jagex just not getting it. Not only is the combat triangle unbalanced, but they seem perfectly happy to CONTINUALLY make melee more and more powerful every chance they get and only rarely follow up with something for ranged or magic. Chaotic weapons are an excellent example- if Jagex had any idea how their combat system actually operates, they'd know that the chaotic melee weapons are revolutionary new ways to kill people and monsters, whereas the staff (5% extra damage vs. no rune saving, repair charges, AND no special attack means it's worse than staff of light for all but the most extreme situations where damage is everything) and crossbow (a little extra accuracy but no extra damage or speed is not remotely comparable to the power of the melee weapons) are at best novelty items, being only very slightly better than their counterparts and being lost over things like mystic robes in PvP.

 

Before that, curses came out with turmoil and soul split, but only the horribly ineffective leech ranged and leech mage curses (while melee was already overpowered). Before that, there were d claws (while melee was already overpowered). Before that, godswords AND Bandos armor came out while ranged got Armadyl armor (okay but nothing compared to Godswords and Bandos) and mage got... steam staves (all this while melee was already overpowered). Before that, whips (while melee was already overpowered). Melee is buffed and buffed and buffed while magic and ranged make do with crumbs, comparatively. And then Jagex has the gall to explain that balancing the combat triangle is a touchy issue and requires a lot of thought... sure, I get that, but is it so hard to stop making it ACTIVELY WORSE over and over and over?

 

Looking at all of this, there's no way to argue that Jagex has any sort of cohesive view of the way their own game works. Their actions are inscrutable at best and idiotic at worst.

[Racheya]

Lets try not to make this into a discussion about the combat triangle.

 

Tbh I think that people are far too harsh on Jagex, as always. Of course they know their own game, but they just can't know how EVERY single player plays the game. You might think that you're representative of the general RS population but you're really quite not and not everyone plays the same and thinks the same as you. Sure, Jagex make mistakes (plenty of them) but that just means that they're human, not that they're clueless.

I don't think you really understand the combat triangle tangent if you think it's off topic.

 

The point is that the combat triangle is one blatant example of Jagex just not getting it. Not only is the combat triangle unbalanced, but they seem perfectly happy to CONTINUALLY make melee more and more powerful every chance they get and only rarely follow up with something for ranged or magic. Chaotic weapons are an excellent example- if Jagex had any idea how their combat system actually operates, they'd know that the chaotic melee weapons are revolutionary new ways to kill people and monsters, whereas the staff (5% extra damage vs. no rune saving, repair charges, AND no special attack means it's worse than staff of light for all but the most extreme situations where damage is everything) and crossbow (a little extra accuracy but no extra damage or speed is not remotely comparable to the power of the melee weapons) are at best novelty items, being only very slightly better than their counterparts and being lost over things like mystic robes in PvP.

 

Before that, curses came out with turmoil and soul split, but only the horribly ineffective leech ranged and leech mage curses (while melee was already overpowered). Before that, there were d claws (while melee was already overpowered). Before that, godswords AND Bandos armor came out while ranged got Armadyl armor (okay but nothing compared to Godswords and Bandos) and mage got... steam staves (all this while melee was already overpowered). Before that, whips (while melee was already overpowered). Melee is buffed and buffed and buffed while magic and ranged make do with crumbs, comparatively. And then Jagex has the gall to explain that balancing the combat triangle is a touchy issue and requires a lot of thought... sure, I get that, but is it so hard to stop making it ACTIVELY WORSE over and over and over?

 

Looking at all of this, there's no way to argue that Jagex has any sort of cohesive view of the way their own game works. Their actions are inscrutable at best and idiotic at worst.

I have no problem with using the combat triangle as an example, I agree that it's horribly unbalanced, but the point is not to make this into a discussion ABOUT the combat triangle - which it is. That's all I was saying.

 

I heard mention in the thread earlier that Jagex are fighting the past and I think that's very true. They have years upon years of content, a lot of it just layered on top of past content so even if they do realise 'crap, melee is ridiculously overpowered, there's a LOT of work that has to go into fixing it because a lot of these mistakes were made in the past and since then new content has come out which uses the old and of course, we know how well the community takes to Jagex changing anything - particularly when it relates to combat. Jagex are stupid for not fixing problems like this but if they took the time out to do it then you'd have people complaining at the lack of updates, it's just a big lose lose situation.

[green9090]

My point was that, while fixing the combat triangle is indeed a big complicated mess, they could at least start by not continuing to make it worse and worse with crap like <all the examples from my previous post>. THAT'S the part that shows that they aren't only in a bad situation, but they still don't understand the situation well enough to not constantly compound it.

 

In other words, they haven't grown enough to deserve credit for being smarter than the Jagex of years past that created this problem, because they're apparently still not done creating it.

[Quyneax]

Ranged turmoil could reallly boost range. Something like rigour+ but with soul split? (I suppose you'd have to make it part of the same dg scroll or it'd be very annoying). Also, leech magic + leech defence is already better than augury, so magic got pretty good curses from the start.

 

I think some Jmods play the game very different from what many high-levelled people consider normal (looking at you, ecto-lover).

[timmmmm83]

The only Jmod I imagine has any idea how to play is Mod Chris L, as he has an account that is entirely maxed, Save Dungeoneering, although that's 100+ as it were. Have him run RS please.

+1

 

The way they're solving problems nowadays shows to me they're loosing grip and feeling with their playerbase. Sadly enough.