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Godsword Discussion


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#101
Crossed_Body
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Obviously, to maxed out players, and players who have a chaotic maul, the godsword is beyond useless.

BUT,

That doesn't mean it's useless for everyone.



Okay then. Why is that? Can you give an example where a godsword trumps a whip and a defender?

Please don't just come in here and say "oh, it's a decent weapon" without actually giving any argument to defend that position.
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#102
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Obviously, to maxed out players, and players who have a chaotic maul, the godsword is beyond useless.

BUT,

That doesn't mean it's useless for everyone.



Okay then. Why is that? Can you give an example where a godsword trumps a whip and a defender?

Please don't just come in here and say "oh, it's a decent weapon" without actually giving any argument to defend that position.


Like in pvp?

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#103
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agreeing to disagree

most [developmentally delayed]ed thing ever


First off, excellent contribution, I notice such intelligent posts made by you quite frequently.

Second off, the only thing [developmentally delayed] here is trying to convince someone that your [and I don't mean bladewings, I mean those debating] point is more valid than theirs, when it's obvious neither side cares to budge. One side wastes their mathematics on the other, and the opposite side wastes their experiences on the former. If your mind isn't made up by now which you think is true/which is true, then it's likely it won't be made up at all.

#104
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It seems I'm building the great wall 'o text brick by brick... haha

In any situation where you might need Zamorak GodSword's special (that being Saradomin GWD), you cannot expect the player to be lower leveled, so there is no reason why a low level player would own a ZGS in the first place.


You cannot talk about using the GS in any situation, then immediately redefine the situation as being only Saradomin GWD. I don't care about the GWD, because that's irrelevant to lower-middle level players who we've been discussing. Far from there being "no reason" why a player would own a ZGS if they don't plan on doing Sara GWD, there are literally thousands of reasons why a player may want to own the ZGS. Any combat training on any creature in the game (save the wildy) is fair game.

Don't talk about efficiency, because either way, recovering prayer points with a special attack is hardly efficient when you can wield a weapon with a higher DPS and just carry a couple more prayer potions. Not that any medium level player should need to use prayer in their daily tasks so much that they need to recover it with a weapon in any case.

You still don't get the situation we're talking about. Sara GS has decent enough stats to train against most creatures in the game, and the reason one may choose to use it would be to get the most out of the extra prayer and LP the special would give. There isn't any need to any of this, none of this is necessary, but it's an excellent way to recover health for free while training combat skills. The extra prayer is just a very nice bonus to use while training, further lengthening the time of each session, and reducing the need to bank at all.

Since you mentioned prayer pots, why not! If you've got a high enough prayer level where it's more efficient to stock up on some prayer pots instead of a few slots of food, then go for it.

At medium levels, if you have 75 attack for a GodSword, you should use a whip and a dragon defender instead, because at medium level, you hardly need the "accuracy" you so claim Godswords are worth the money for, and a whip or a saradomin sword are much better, and more damaging alternatives.
At medium levels, you also don't need the special attacks of the godswords, or if you do, the occasions are so rare that the money would be better spend on getting other skills higher.
At high levels, you laugh at anyone who uses a GodSword. Period.

Relative worth is defined by your values, if you value experience over money then they a certain one may be worth it to you, or may not be. Needless to say that's a personal decision. I never talked about "accuracy" or "claimed" anything. Where you referring to someone else, or what did you mean?

You should never need a Godsword in any situation ever. However there are tons, and tons of situations where they are useful, and fit the bill nicely. The special attacks make some basic leveling easier, and can make grinding that much more painless. Your values are your own, and at higher levels in RS the Godswords should become obsolete. It's probably fair to assume you've hit this point eh?

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#105
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The Sara Godsword is a great weapon for lower-ish levels to train their combat up, and many higher level players without the Dung. requirements for chaotic weaponry.


Whip/ee or eee is better

Runescape is a "perfect physics world,"(with magic) though.

Rhetorical arguments that go down to these levels are just pointless really.

The plain and simple fact is that no godsword is ever "useless." You might (possibly) be able to accurately say that after certain levels and items are obtained, then godswords are never the most efficient option, but I seriously doubt that. Also, examples such as tds where the level of attention required can SIGNIFICANTLY affect performance cannot be waived off in that manner reasonably. For example, I know that using a steel titan down there is better AT FULL ATTENTION, but I have tv to be watching, etc. So a unicorn is now the best, yet no statistics/attributes have changed.

And just to be utterly annoying, I could "use" a godsword to slay lvl 2 men if I felt like it. Therefore they have at least one "use," and based on empirical evidence are not "useless."


Yeah, these are just semantics and there's basically no point in arguing past that point. I already admitted they are partially useful for some people at TD's. Still, I am saying they are "useless" to show exactly how limited these scenarios are. GS have like one main reasonable use, and that's about it. Saying that they're useful gives other people the impression that a GS is a reasonable purchase for a noob, which it is not.


K, I agree that godswords are mostly useless, if the anti-GS people agree that GS can be useful for low levels at bosses. That being said, low levels typically can't do bosses, if for no other reason there are too many high levels there to begin with. And a few other niche uses, AGS for pk'ing, BGS for corp, ZGS.... some people like the spec in safe PVP and it is useful at Zammy, although another poster said that a damaging spec such as d claws is more useful.

Frankly, I'm inclined to agree mainly with the anti-GS crowd, but there are a few uses for it. I also think comparing to chaotics is dumb in a sense; chaotics are obviously better, but much less accessible to the average player.

Also, GS hits high. That in itself is attractive in itself, as some people just like hitting high. Might be less DPS, but some noobs just like seeing high hits lol.

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#106
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One side wastes their mathematics on the other, and the opposite side wastes their experiences on the former. If your mind isn't made up by now which you think is true/which is true, then it's likely it won't be made up at all.

My mind is never made up. I'm always open to change and a new opinion. Change is invigorating! If you don't accept new beliefs, you become complacent and lazy, your life atrophies. Debates lead to new questions and new solutions! New beliefs force us to experiment and adapt, that's how we learn and grow.

But onto the GS discussion...

Obviously, to maxed out players, and players who have a chaotic maul, the godsword is beyond useless.

BUT,

That doesn't mean it's useless for everyone.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say, only said (much) more succinctly.

I'm not anti-GS or pro-GS by any means. Frankly, Godswords are unnecessarily expensive, and not worth it to most people. However cost does not wholly define value, and they are still good weapons if not the best in the game.

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#107
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agreeing to disagree

most [developmentally delayed]ed thing ever

This.

One of the sides has to be right, and so far I've seen little factual evidence on the Godsword side. They merely deflect and defend the arguments, without providing any sort of convincing argument from their side.

thats what i said.


Then you cannot say they are "amongst the most powerful" when there is a plethora of much better weapons available, even at lower levels.


I always support an adversary system, so I will choose the "godsword side" in this.
I've bolded a bit of one of your posts there, and now I would like you to state how any of the statements(from me) stated below are not factual or in any way incorrect. I don't think that I made any mistakes in this case, but I could be wrong.




typing is easy though

I still think you're wrong though, just based on experience that...odd as it is from your calculations...remains the same every time I've experienced it.


Experiences lie, math does not; we are subject to a lot of sampling biases

For example, my experiences told me that magic defense affected Korasi sword strength. It does not.

To be completely fair, like i mentioned previously - GS have SOME use - maybe like one (TD's if you're too slow at switching whip to be effective). But for all intents and purposes it is effectively never #1 at anything else. It makes sense to think of it as basically useless.

Uhm what?

This mindset is similar to what the old greek-mathematicans had: "if my experiences don't match the perfect mathematics, my experiences are wrong"..

Luckily we've grown out of that mindset, and now we think "if my experiences don't match the perfect mathematics, the perfect mathematics forget to include a certain variable". Experience is always more important than mathematics: mathematical rules are used verify & fine tune the ideas you've gained by doing experiments!


Runescape is a "perfect physics world,"(with magic) though.

Rhetorical arguments that go down to these levels are just pointless really.

The plain and simple fact is that no godsword is ever "useless." You might (possibly) be able to accurately say that after certain levels and items are obtained, then godswords are never the most efficient option, but I seriously doubt that. Also, examples such as tds where the level of attention required can SIGNIFICANTLY affect performance cannot be waived off in that manner reasonably. For example, I know that using a steel titan down there is better AT FULL ATTENTION, but I have tv to be watching, etc. So a unicorn is now the best, yet no statistics/attributes have changed.

And just to be utterly annoying, I could "use" a godsword to slay lvl 2 men if I felt like it. Therefore they have at least one "use," and based on empirical evidence are not "useless."


As someone said earlier, arguing an opinion is in itself completely useless(when nothing is to be gained), and there really is no reason to continue this argument, as it's gone into the cyclical phase that most internet arguments of this type end up in.

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#108
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It seems I'm building the great wall 'o text brick by brick... haha


In any situation where you might need Zamorak GodSword's special (that being Saradomin GWD), you cannot expect the player to be lower leveled, so there is no reason why a low level player would own a ZGS in the first place.


You cannot talk about using the GS in any situation, then immediately redefine the situation as being only Saradomin GWD. I don't care about the GWD, because that's irrelevant to lower-middle level players who we've been discussing. Far from there being "no reason" why a player would own a ZGS if they don't plan on doing Sara GWD, there are literally thousands of reasons why a player may want to own the ZGS. Any combat training on any creature in the game (save the wildy) is fair game.

You CAN train on any monster with a ZGS, and someone may want to, but there will ALWAYS be superior alternatives to gs while combat training, and they are second tier at best at most bosses. What we are discussing is situations where gs are the best choice, or among many roughly equal choices during different activities; just saying someone CAN use a godsword for something does nothing to prove its usefulness: you CAN solo the Corporeal Beast with a bronze spear, that doesn't mean it's useful there.

Don't talk about efficiency, because either way, recovering prayer points with a special attack is hardly efficient when you can wield a weapon with a higher DPS and just carry a couple more prayer potions. Not that any medium level player should need to use prayer in their daily tasks so much that they need to recover it with a weapon in any case.

You still don't get the situation we're talking about. Sara GS has decent enough stats to train against most creatures in the game, and the reason one may choose to use it would be to get the most out of the extra prayer and LP the special would give. There isn't any need to any of this, none of this is necessary, but it's an excellent way to recover health for free while training combat skills. The extra prayer is just a very nice bonus to use while training, further lengthening the time of each session, and reducing the need to bank at all.

Since you mentioned prayer pots, why not! If you've got a high enough prayer level where it's more efficient to stock up on some prayer pots instead of a few slots of food, then go for it.


You obviously still don't get it: SGS is a terrible primary weapon to train with compared to even a whip and rune def + dds spec, you can get more use out of the spec bar than a chance at getting more LP and prayer, it's a subpar way to recover health and pray, and generally getting faster kills is better than lasting for a longer time period (Lasting longer doesn't mean getting more kills inherently).

At medium levels, if you have 75 attack for a GodSword, you should use a whip and a dragon defender instead, because at medium level, you hardly need the "accuracy" you so claim Godswords are worth the money for, and a whip or a saradomin sword are much better, and more damaging alternatives.
At medium levels, you also don't need the special attacks of the godswords, or if you do, the occasions are so rare that the money would be better spend on getting other skills higher.
At high levels, you laugh at anyone who uses a GodSword. Period.

Relative worth is defined by your values, if you value experience over money then they a certain one may be worth it to you, or may not be. Needless to say that's a personal decision. I never talked about "accuracy" or "claimed" anything. Where you referring to someone else, or what did you mean?

You should never need a Godsword in any situation ever. However there are tons, and tons of situations where they are useful, and fit the bill nicely. The special attacks make some basic leveling easier, and can make grinding that much more painless. Your values are your own, and at higher levels in RS the Godswords should become obsolete. It's probably fair to assume you've hit this point eh?

Useless doesn't mean worthless, there are many things of sentimental or non-intrinsic value that people carry, both in rs and in life in general. But that's not what we're discussing here. We are here to talk evidence, numbers, gps, and where gs can be as effective as other weapons in other combat situations.


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#109
TheAncient
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To highlight: GS are WORSE than defender+whip for 75 defense with normal super pots even at <10% whip accuracy. There is basically NO reasonable situation, other than TD's which I have mentioned and explained, in which GS are better. Whip is better DPS than Godsword against Graar which is in the eyes of many the most important pvm boss. GS might be better for sara too but what kind of level 75 noob does sara lol.

Whip has better DPS against a person with equal levels/gear and a godsword than vice versa. GS also suffer from higher veng kickback. GS also leave no option to be one-handed. Whip is superior for pvp. The only thing you can argue about GS is that they have higher variability in damage, but you should be using other weapons to KO such as DDS or korasi. AGS is only useful because it is both a main weapon and spec weapon but the GS and AGS spec are too weak compared to their counterparts nowadays

Second off, the only thing [developmentally delayed] here is trying to convince someone that your [and I don't mean bladewings, I mean those debating] point is more valid than theirs, when it's obvious neither side cares to budge. One side wastes their mathematics on the other, and the opposite side wastes their experiences on the former. If your mind isn't made up by now which you think is true/which is true, then it's likely it won't be made up at all.

That's fine by me; it matters little that the ignorant remain ignorant but rather the ones who have yet to form an opinion form the more accurate one. I don't like it when wrong statements remain unchallenged.

I have nothing wrong with you doing something; for all I care you can use bronze scimitars to train. Please just recognize that you are not training in even a reasonably optimal manner.
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#110
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Wait, why again are GS better than a whip at TDs?
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#111
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Wait, why again are GS better than a whip at TDs?

Because the slower attack speed makes switching easier.

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#112
TheAncient
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Wait, why again are GS better than a whip at TDs?

Also, GS aren't strictly "better", they are just better for people who can't switch fast enough with the whip to make full use of its speed. Whip is better ideal DPS against TD's than GS.

Giving other people the impression that a GS has "very limited use" is illogical since they make up some of the best weapons in the game. While there may be some low percentage of other weapons (lets say 10% or less) which are more powerful, the GS have special attacks which are unique in Runescape. When you dismissed my original comment about the Sara Godsword being a powerful training tool for a lower to middle-tier player, you vaguely said the whip/ee is "better."

Since the Saradomin Godsword's special recovers a minimum of 100 LP, it is an excellent way for players attempting to train their combat levels up because it can allow for far longer training sessions, using much less restocking time. Hence, it can allow for more efficient leveling, in certain situations of course. The Armadyl GS in particular also has a use in PvP, where high hits reign supreme.

Godswords are extremely useful in the eyes of most RS players.

Granted, if you have the stats, you can use other higher level equipment. They also have their uses!


This reasoning totally ignores the other alternatives. We care about what weapons are better than others in reasonable scenarios. If a weapon is not the best in basically any reasonable scenario, it is effectively useless.

You did not offer a comparison of whip to GS, just stating the merits of GS. I have already showed you a comparison of whip to GS and it clearly shows whip is better: the speed makes up for the strength and accuracy of GS AND more. whip is cheaper; whip is one-handed; whip retains its value better; whip has significantly better raw dps; whip has better DPS than GS EVEN IN SITUATIONS WHERE GS IS SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER. Let's not forget that chaotic weapons totally outclass the GS and, ignoring the fact that chaotics are a sunk cost, take the same (if not less) time to obtain when dungeoneering properly.

For the reasons I have explained throughout this thread and above, whip and chaotics are significantly better for PvP, training, all MHing except for people who are bad with switching at TD's and really low levels who do sara. Cheaper and more easily accessible weapons are better for specs.
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#113
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To anyone supporting the Godswords....

I suggest you learn how to use this before arguing about DPS. Really, the numbers don't lie, but experiences do. It's a very simple fact. It's why scientists use instruments to measure things rather then just guess based on their experiences.

Really, doing DPS calculations is stupidly easy. If you choose to ignore them then you're simply ignorant.

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#114
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To anyone supporting the Godswords....

I suggest you learn how to use this before arguing about DPS. Really, the numbers don't lie, but experiences do. It's a very simple fact. It's why scientists use instruments to measure things rather then just guess based on their experiences.

Really, doing DPS calculations is stupidly easy. If you choose to ignore them then you're simply ignorant.


No thanks, I'll trust my experience in this luck based game. I'll leave the calcs to the big names around here.

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#115
TheAncient
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To anyone supporting the Godswords....

I suggest you learn how to use this before arguing about DPS. Really, the numbers don't lie, but experiences do. It's a very simple fact. It's why scientists use instruments to measure things rather then just guess based on their experiences.

Really, doing DPS calculations is stupidly easy. If you choose to ignore them then you're simply ignorant.


No thanks, I'll trust my experience in this luck based game. I'll leave the calcs to the big names around here.


In doing so, recognize that there's a large chance that you're wrong, and that you are willfully ignoring reasonable evidence and something which has been verified with measured empirical data (not opinion). If you admit to that then I have nothing more to say.
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#116
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To anyone supporting the Godswords....

I suggest you learn how to use this before arguing about DPS. Really, the numbers don't lie, but experiences do. It's a very simple fact. It's why scientists use instruments to measure things rather then just guess based on their experiences.

Really, doing DPS calculations is stupidly easy. If you choose to ignore them then you're simply ignorant.


No thanks, I'll trust my experience in this luck based game. I'll leave the calcs to the big names around here.


That link was the Grimy Bunyip's DPS calculator. What more of a big name do you want?

Really though, this just shows your ignorance and stubbornness. You might as well not have a speedometer on the car. Who trusts numbers right? I mean as long as you have a general sense of how fast you're going that's what's important right? /sarcasm/

If that is the way you look at life, I feel very, very sorry for you my friend.

As for this being a luck based game, that can be used to justify anything. In theory I could go to AZS for the first time and hit 0's for an hour out of hugely bad luck. My experience would tell me that the spot was bad exp. However, my experiences would be false and it in fact would be great exp. I'm curious, what about your experience do you base this off of? Have you done tests with different weapons versus different monsters? Or is this just another "herp derp GS hits big so it's good" argument?

PM me in game anytime


#117
gremmy
[ Display Name History ]

gremmy

    Hobgoblin Killer

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To anyone supporting the Godswords....

I suggest you learn how to use this before arguing about DPS. Really, the numbers don't lie, but experiences do. It's a very simple fact. It's why scientists use instruments to measure things rather then just guess based on their experiences.

Really, doing DPS calculations is stupidly easy. If you choose to ignore them then you're simply ignorant.


No thanks, I'll trust my experience in this luck based game. I'll leave the calcs to the big names around here.


That link was the Grimy Bunyip's DPS calculator. What more of a big name do you want?

Really though, this just shows your ignorance and stubbornness. You might as well not have a speedometer on the car. Who trusts numbers right? I mean as long as you have a general sense of how fast you're going that's what's important right? /sarcasm/

If that is the way you look at life, I feel very, very sorry for you my friend.

As for this being a luck based game, that can be used to justify anything. In theory I could go to AZS for the first time and hit 0's for an hour out of hugely bad luck. My experience would tell me that the spot was bad exp. However, my experiences would be false and it in fact would be great exp. I'm curious, what about your experience do you base this off of? Have you done tests with different weapons versus different monsters? Or is this just another "herp derp GS hits big so it's good" argument?


You can't compare Runescape to real life.
Dragon drops: 82 (2 claws)
Dagannoth kings drops: 73
Barrows item count: 51
GWD drops: 54 (5 hilts: 1x bandos, 3x saradomin, 1x zamorak)
Whips: 4
Sigils: 1x spectral (FFA), 1x arcane (FFA)

#118
Nifflin
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Nifflin

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I'm not. I'm applying his/her outlook on this situation to a relevant real life situation. My point is if they try to apply that same logic in real life they are screwed. A common way of testing a philosophy is to apply it to a diverse number of situations and see if it holds true.

The philosophy that experience is more valuable then statistics is false in both cases.

[bleep]ing reading, how does it work?


PM me in game anytime


#119
gremmy
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gremmy

    Hobgoblin Killer

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I'm applying his/her outlook on this situation to a relevant real life situation.


Looks like a comparison to me.
Dragon drops: 82 (2 claws)
Dagannoth kings drops: 73
Barrows item count: 51
GWD drops: 54 (5 hilts: 1x bandos, 3x saradomin, 1x zamorak)
Whips: 4
Sigils: 1x spectral (FFA), 1x arcane (FFA)

#120
Nifflin
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Nifflin

    Hobgoblin Killer

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  • RSN2:Runnersdie
Doesn't mean I'm comparing Runescape to real life. Just because I applied his/her outlook to real life as a way of critiquing it doesn't mean I'm necessarily comparing Runescape and real life. You seem to be confused as to what a comparison is, can you quote exactly where I compare Runescape to real life?

Once again...

[bleep]ing reading, how does it work?


PM me in game anytime





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