Protect Prayers looked down upon

[J35u5_M4]

Hybriding is the way to counter it, if someone is ill-prepared that's their own problem, the age demographic of pkers means they have to use guides and pictures of what other people use, and not think on their own two feet.

 

Use prayer, use whatever you want, in PvP there are no rules, no honour codes it's simply kill or be killed, or in my case; run, eat, dig for treasure trail casket & die.

 

So true.

[xpx]

Ancient, nobody is really claiming that prayer makes you worse at combat- it does make you better, but it doesn't make the game better. It's your own choice to pray or not, but as it goes under a code of honor, don't expect people to fight you fairly either(as said, your opponents will likely safe, run with food and tag you because of it). With that said, i don't at all agree with your notion that pking is about killing- what you understand about being the best at combat might be true in a safe pvp environment where nobody really cares about anything, but it's certainly not true in a real pking environment. As said, your approach of 'do not die' does not work in a pvp situation, and more often than not, you will be making much less money and having alot less fun. Most pkers, however, go for the 'I'll kill you'' approach, and it's not really possible with protection prayers- death matches are rare, thus to kill someone you either need to TB first or KO, neither of which works with protection prayers. As said, the best hybrid will win about the same percentage of fights either way, so all he does by agreeing to prayers is ensuring everyone gets less kills(has less fun) and makes less money(will be using more supplies). It's a lose-lose situation.

 

And to add to your calculation, all it shows is that prayers are very insignificant in a good hybrids arsenal. If he is good, he will win a fight with of without prayers, so why use them?

[Hajutze]

It also doesn't really take that much skill to use and only really lengthens fights and makes them less attractive

If you want to see which option is better you need as much samples as you can get. In this situation they are fighting to see who's better, so a prolonged fight is a good idea. Well if one of them has an ADHD or doesn't have time - it's his problem.

[obidiah]

From my point of view (as a none pker) it feels odd that some pkers seem to complain that some of the new weapons ruin pvp because they kill to easily. - yet at the same time think it's wrong to use options at the their disposal which mean it's harder to die.

 

I guess it could be different pkers saying these different things.

[bedman]

It's because most pkers just want to do melee only fights, and a fight where both people use protect melee is just lame and boring. You might be a hybridder and love it, but a lot of people like simple melee fights.

[xpx]

It also doesn't really take that much skill to use and only really lengthens fights and makes them less attractive

If you want to see which option is better you need as much samples as you can get. In this situation they are fighting to see who's better, so a prolonged fight is a good idea. Well if one of them has an ADHD or doesn't have time - it's his problem.

A prolonged fight, as said, usually doesn't end in a winner. Fights in the wilderness end because one fighter gets KO's, not because one runs out of food.

 

Bedman, that's just another save pvp prod cliche. Nobody in high level wildy(mb/hut area) uses only one style. There is nothing to love about praying even if you hybrid.

[bedman]

It also doesn't really take that much skill to use and only really lengthens fights and makes them less attractive

If you want to see which option is better you need as much samples as you can get. In this situation they are fighting to see who's better, so a prolonged fight is a good idea. Well if one of them has an ADHD or doesn't have time - it's his problem.

A prolonged fight, as said, usually doesn't end in a winner. Fights in the wilderness end because one fighter gets KO's, not because one runs out of food.

 

Bedman, that's just another save pvp prod cliche. Nobody in high level wildy(mb/hut area) uses only one style. There is nothing to love about praying even if you hybrid.

I was talking about edge vengenace pking. I'm pretty sure most people just stop fighting if you use protection prayer. In high lvl wildy, where people bring more than one style, I'm pretty sure they won't complain about you praying, but just switch styles in stead.

[xpx]

I was talking about edge vengenace pking. I'm pretty sure most people just stop fighting if you use protection prayer. In high lvl wildy, where people bring more than one style, I'm pretty sure they won't complain about you praying, but just switch styles in stead.

just as i said, a safe pvp prod talking about pking. The whole point of edge pking is to fight one style against another and all of the pkers there know that. They don't even pretend they are doing anything else. Real pking, usually done in high level wilderness or with a team is all about hybriding, and every hybrid pker will be against praying too, as it practically eliminates KO potential, therefor drastically lowering the number of kills you get. You'd be stupid to think praying doesn't decrease damage against a hybrid as changing combat styles takes alot more clicks than changing prayers.

[B_Ryan20]

As said by others, protection prayers extend fights and that would be find except once people get low on food they either run or teleport so why bother fighting them in the first place?

 

Fighting someone using protection prayers during a single combat, especially in lower level wild is just not worth it, therefore why people look down on it.

[TheAncient]

Ancient, nobody is really claiming that prayer makes you worse at combat- it does make you better, but it doesn't make the game better. It's your own choice to pray or not, but as it goes under a code of honor, don't expect people to fight you fairly either(as said, your opponents will likely safe, run with food and tag you because of it). With that said, i don't at all agree with your notion that pking is about killing- what you understand about being the best at combat might be true in a safe pvp environment where nobody really cares about anything, but it's certainly not true in a real pking environment. As said, your approach of 'do not die' does not work in a pvp situation, and more often than not, you will be making much less money and having alot less fun. Most pkers, however, go for the 'I'll kill you'' approach, and it's not really possible with protection prayers- death matches are rare, thus to kill someone you either need to TB first or KO, neither of which works with protection prayers. As said, the best hybrid will win about the same percentage of fights either way, so all he does by agreeing to prayers is ensuring everyone gets less kills(has less fun) and makes less money(will be using more supplies). It's a lose-lose situation.

 

And to add to your calculation, all it shows is that prayers are very insignificant in a good hybrids arsenal. If he is good, he will win a fight with of without prayers, so why use them?

 

I have some issue with this post:

 

What do you mean by you disagree with my "notion that pking is about killing" and then in the next few lines say "Most pkers ... go for the 'I'll kill you approach'"? This seems pretty contradictory. Did you mean "my notion that pking is about being good at combat?" That would make more sense. But even there, I still disagree with you.

Why does my calculation show that prayers are very insignificant? 280 vs 200 APM is a HUGE difference if you want to sustain it for an entire fight.

And no, a hybrid that does not pray is much more susceptible to cheap shots like a PJ'ed maul+2gmauls or a PJ'ed rigour void darkbow spec that just straight up one-hit-KO's without protection prayer. If you are in a crowded area it's pretty easy for someone to set up a PJ against you

 

I think I clearly understand your point, and in general I disagree with it because combat should be about who is better and not who should get kills. Again, I think it's less honorable to run from a challenging opponent. But I speak not from a PKer's perspective but as an outsider commenting on PKer mentality.

 

Liike I said before, I think by now it is fair under xpx's perspective to say PKing is about killing and not being better at DM's.

[xpx]

I have some issue with this post:

 

What do you mean by you disagree with my "notion that pking is about killing" and then in the next few lines say "Most pkers ... go for the 'I'll kill you approach'"? This seems pretty contradictory. Did you mean "my notion that pking is about being good at combat?" That would make more sense. But even there, I still disagree with you - but that goes into the realm of opinion.

Why does my calculation show that prayers are very insignificant? 280 vs 200 APM is a HUGE difference if you want to sustain it for an entire fight.

And no, a hybrid that does not pray is much more susceptible to cheap shots like a PJ'ed maul+2gmauls or a PJ'ed rigour void darkbow spec that just straight up one-hit-KO's without protection prayer. If you are in a crowded area it's pretty easy for someone to set up a PJ against you

 

I think I clearly understand your point, and in general I disagree with it because combat should be about who is better and not who should get kills. Again, I think it's less honorable to run from a challenging opponent. But I speak not from a PKer's perspective but as an outsider commenting on PKer mentality.

 

Liike I said before, I think by now it is fair under xpx's perspective to say PKing is about killing and not being better at DM's.

I think your post are mostly about you not thinking like a pk-er. I've always despised safe pvp for being soft and stupid, and you really show why.

 

The calculation is done very one sided and is a BS, but if you consider factors impartially, praying adds around 10% clicking, which isn't that significant. As for cheap shots, it's common knowledge that people pray after getting kills, and there being a huge crowd is highly unlikely(but you wouldn't know these things...uhh...).

 

And yes, being a good pker has NEVER been about being good at DMs. To get kills while pking you need either to KO your opponent or TB them and chase after for 5 minutes. Agreeing to death matches is rare and mostly pointless as people don't value the skill of wasting others food. If you can't understand that notion, there is no point in pking(and remember, pking isn't safe pvp- there is something on the line, thus it would be stupid to let yourself be killed for no reason).

 

If you think you are that good and badass, i'd really love to see you record some dangerous clan wars vids of bridding. Unless you can do that, all you talk about is thin air.

[TheAncient]

I have some issue with this post:

 

What do you mean by you disagree with my "notion that pking is about killing" and then in the next few lines say "Most pkers ... go for the 'I'll kill you approach'"? This seems pretty contradictory. Did you mean "my notion that pking is about being good at combat?" That would make more sense. But even there, I still disagree with you - but that goes into the realm of opinion.

Why does my calculation show that prayers are very insignificant? 280 vs 200 APM is a HUGE difference if you want to sustain it for an entire fight.

And no, a hybrid that does not pray is much more susceptible to cheap shots like a PJ'ed maul+2gmauls or a PJ'ed rigour void darkbow spec that just straight up one-hit-KO's without protection prayer. If you are in a crowded area it's pretty easy for someone to set up a PJ against you

 

I think I clearly understand your point, and in general I disagree with it because combat should be about who is better and not who should get kills. Again, I think it's less honorable to run from a challenging opponent. But I speak not from a PKer's perspective but as an outsider commenting on PKer mentality.

 

Liike I said before, I think by now it is fair under xpx's perspective to say PKing is about killing and not being better at DM's.

I think your post are mostly about you not thinking like a pk-er. I've always despised safe pvp for being soft and stupid, and you really show why.

 

The calculation is done very one sided and is a BS, but if you consider factors impartially, praying adds around 10% clicking, which isn't that significant. As for cheap shots, it's common knowledge that people pray after getting kills, and there being a huge crowd is highly unlikely(but you wouldn't know these things...uhh...).

 

And yes, being a good pker has NEVER been about being good at DMs. To get kills while pking you need either to KO your opponent or TB them and chase after for 5 minutes. Agreeing to death matches is rare and mostly pointless as people don't value the skill of wasting others food. If you can't understand that notion, there is no point in pking(and remember, pking isn't safe pvp- there is something on the line, thus it would be stupid to let yourself be killed for no reason).

 

If you think you are that good and badass, i'd really love to see you record some dangerous clan wars vids of bridding. Unless you can do that, all you talk about is thin air.

 

I admit that I don't think like a PKer, and I am questioning why PKers think the way they do. I have stated this repeatedly.

 

How is my calculation biased? Be specific. What evidence do you have to say that prayer adds 10% clicking?

 

I'm not talking about PJ's at the end of fights, I'm talking about when pkers set up PJ's for their teammates.

 

No one does dangerous clan wars, for one. More importantly, my skills have no relevance to the topic at hand, either. This isn't about me. For all you care my bridding experience may be effectively 0 and my arguments would still hold water.

 

You increasingly seem to be a PKer who is just bitter and taking things personally, lol.

[xpx]

I admit that I don't think like a PKer, and I am questioning why PKers think the way they do.

 

How is my calculation biased? Be specific. What evidence do you have to say that prayer adds 10% clicking?

 

No one does dangerous clan wars, for one. More importantly, my skills have no relevance to the topic at hand, either. This isn't about me.

Sure seems like a topic from your perspective. But in any case, the most important thing you seem to be forgetting is that pking isn't about death matches- as dieing matters, you need to kill other people, not survive their attacks. Thus, as being able to KO your opponent is the most important factor in determining the winner, protection prayers will more or less kill any KO potential. If you can't KO, you can't pk.

[TheAncient]

I admit that I don't think like a PKer, and I am questioning why PKers think the way they do.

 

How is my calculation biased? Be specific. What evidence do you have to say that prayer adds 10% clicking?

 

No one does dangerous clan wars, for one. More importantly, my skills have no relevance to the topic at hand, either. This isn't about me.

Sure seems like a topic from your perspective. But in any case, the most important thing you seem to be forgetting is that pking isn't about death matches- as dieing matters, you need to kill other people, not survive their attacks. Thus, as being able to KO your opponent is the most important factor in determining the winner, protection prayers will more or less kill any KO potential. If you can't KO, you can't pk.

 

Like I've already said, this perspective fully admits that PKing is more KO/kill focused than who is good at combat. I'm fine with that, I just disagree with the perspective. You're willing to admit the "kill" part but are you willing to admit the "good at combat" part?

 

The point is that I'd like to point out the distinction, and for that distinction to be recognized.

 

Also, just out of curiosity, exactly what skills are needed for good KOs?

[xpx]

I admit that I don't think like a PKer, and I am questioning why PKers think the way they do.

 

How is my calculation biased? Be specific. What evidence do you have to say that prayer adds 10% clicking?

 

No one does dangerous clan wars, for one. More importantly, my skills have no relevance to the topic at hand, either. This isn't about me.

Sure seems like a topic from your perspective. But in any case, the most important thing you seem to be forgetting is that pking isn't about death matches- as dieing matters, you need to kill other people, not survive their attacks. Thus, as being able to KO your opponent is the most important factor in determining the winner, protection prayers will more or less kill any KO potential. If you can't KO, you can't pk.

 

Like I've already said, this perspective fully admits that PKing is more KO/kill focused than who is good at combat. I'm fine with that, I just disagree with the perspective. You're willing to admit the "kill" part but are you willing to admit the "good at combat" part?

In the old days, being good at combat was the same as being good at KOing your opponent. It's mostly the newschool notion that these things differ. And really, i'm not bitter about pking or anything, i'm just baffled at your perception of pking, even though you know little about it. What you need is to pk, being good and experienced at safe pvp doesn't fully translate to success while pking, and vice versa. You practically call pkers cheap, not knowing much about pking, and expect not to be criticized for it?

 

Also, just out of curiosity, exactly what skills are needed for good KOs?

Being able to anticipate your opponents next move and not playing it safe when it matters, i'd say.

[TheAncient]

I admit that I don't think like a PKer, and I am questioning why PKers think the way they do.

 

How is my calculation biased? Be specific. What evidence do you have to say that prayer adds 10% clicking?

 

No one does dangerous clan wars, for one. More importantly, my skills have no relevance to the topic at hand, either. This isn't about me.

Sure seems like a topic from your perspective. But in any case, the most important thing you seem to be forgetting is that pking isn't about death matches- as dieing matters, you need to kill other people, not survive their attacks. Thus, as being able to KO your opponent is the most important factor in determining the winner, protection prayers will more or less kill any KO potential. If you can't KO, you can't pk.

 

Like I've already said, this perspective fully admits that PKing is more KO/kill focused than who is good at combat. I'm fine with that, I just disagree with the perspective. You're willing to admit the "kill" part but are you willing to admit the "good at combat" part?

In the old days, being good at combat was the same as being good at KOing your opponent. It's mostly the newschool notion that these things differ. And really, i'm not bitter about pking or anything, i'm just baffled at your perception of pking, even though you know little about it. What you need is to pk, being good and experienced at safe pvp doesn't fully translate to success while pking, and vice versa. You practically call pkers cheap, not knowing much about pking, and expect not to be criticized for it?

 

When did I generalize that all PKers were cheap? lol. I'm not saying KO's take no skill, I'm just trying to show that PK'ers and safe pvpers require a different skillset.

 

I never claimed I know much about PKing, that's why I made this thread to investigate your opinions.

[xpx]

When did I generalize that all PKers were cheap? lol. I'm not saying KO's take no skill, I'm just trying to show that PK'ers and safe pvpers require a different skillset.

 

I never claimed I know much about PKing, that's why I made this thread to investigate your opinions.

If you didn't know that pking and safe pvp were drastically different from the getgo, i'm sorry, but you must have really been stupid to think that way. There is a reason pkers completely disregard of safe pvp of any kind. And really, most of the thread is trying to show that pkers are wusses who want people to play their way, and even you can't deny that, all while trying to convince us your way is best. For you to have a clear and educated view on this, you'd atleast need to have pked somewhat.

[TheAncient]

When did I generalize that all PKers were cheap? lol. I'm not saying KO's take no skill, I'm just trying to show that PK'ers and safe pvpers require a different skillset.

 

I never claimed I know much about PKing, that's why I made this thread to investigate your opinions.

If you didn't know that pking and safe pvp were drastically different from the getgo, i'm sorry, but you must have really been stupid. There is a reason pkers completely disregard of safe pvp of any kind. And really, most of the thread is trying to show that pkers are wusses who want people to play their way, and even you can't deny that, all while trying to convince us your way is best. For you to have a clear and educated view on this, you'd atleast need to have pked somewhat.

 

Durr PKers completely disregard of safe pvp cus they dumb.

 

By your logic, which I disagree with (because experiences aren't important in this case), you need to have had a clear and educated view on safe pvp to claim a good understanding of safe PvP as well. Experiences are unimportant in this case because I can just ask you what you think is important.

 

This thread addresses PvP in general and not just PKing.

 

If we admit that PKing and Safe PvP require different skillsets, the natural question is which one reflects true combat ability in a 1v1 deathmatch. I think this is a very valid question, since PKers pride themselves on being good at "combat" and not just "PKing". What I've been repeating is that the PKing skillset is not as related to "true deathmatch ability". This is the point I've been trying to argue - I am not claiming it to be pure opinion.

 

I am still curious: what skills do you claim are actually involved in KOing?

 

I take one more step in saying that I think PKing SHOULD be DM's. It is more honorable to have a fight to show true combat ability rather than just KO potential. I should highlight this as an opinion, but I don't claim this statement to be an argument. Feel free to disagree with this point, as I expect you would.

 

I should make it very clear: the original post addresses not only PKing but also just PvP (and "true deathmatch ability") in general. I understand now why PKers see prayer as "dishonorable" (because PKing is about killing and not being better at combat), but this logic clearly does not apply to safe PvP or DM's that show true ability.

[Noxx]

In my opinion, it does make some sense that Prayer Overheads aren't used in BH based PvP. It would take a lot of excitement out of it. It would also become frustrating because the fights would last longer (probably 5 times as long as they last). There is a way to fix this. By adjusting the unwritted "safing" rule. Instead of eating at around 480lp one would now eat at around 350lp, for example. This however might prove riskier than convensional PvPing and i doubt a lot of players would go for that.

When it comes to Bridding. Now thats a diffirent ballgame. Pray. Pray like no tomorrow. With bridding your risk is much higher, but this means your reward could be higher too. It seems to me (and i really am no pro, so feel free to correct me) that Bridders (although more often that not, cocky gits) are the only skilled pkers left today. Yes, i beleive bridding is the only form of pvp that takes some skill. Like OP mentioned, knowing when to swtch to which prayer, switcing fast enough, switcing back (this also includes switcing combat styles).

 

I'm hoping though, that with the wildy coming back, we might see some adjustments to those unwritted pk rules that might "allow" us to use Protection Prayers.

[I_am_Not]

I do agree with Xpx that praying in this day and age of RS is pointless.

Pking is 100% about a Ko, even hybriding.

Back when pking was semi decent(Hybriding) people didn't have 30 extra food and the option to bank all their items should they run out.

Which is why, in a way, I agree praying is pointless, and most fights end with no victor.

If we were talking post summoning than I'd agree prayer would be an extremely important part.

I do use prayer, and believe others may too. However, if you're pking for the kill you'd probably not pray the entire fight.

[xpx]

But why do you class a 1 vs 1 dm as the true show of combat ability? I haven't seen that it's the number one unanimous way to show being better at combat, thus you shouldn't regard of it that way. However much you want to take this topic away from pking, only place where praying matters is, as we have seen pking. This thread is about pking.

 

As for your view, it's only your view. Not everyone looks at combat the same way. You might be good at safe pvp, but it doesn't make you good at pking. We don't really have an unanimous way of showing who is better at combat as a whole. Safe pvp really can't be it, mostly, because it's safe. A good pker wants to be good at pking, not combat. What you think pking should be is meaningless. A good pker doesn't have to be good at safe pvp- it's mostly intelligence and experience that matters while pking, not just pure clicking power. Pkers are an honorable kind that have rules between them to benefit them all. I see nothing wrong with that. You have the right of pking the way you want, but as i've said a number of times, there are consequences.

[bedman]

I was talking about edge vengenace pking. I'm pretty sure most people just stop fighting if you use protection prayer. In high lvl wildy, where people bring more than one style, I'm pretty sure they won't complain about you praying, but just switch styles in stead.

just as i said, a safe pvp prod talking about pking. The whole point of edge pking is to fight one style against another and all of the pkers there know that. They don't even pretend they are doing anything else. Real pking, usually done in high level wilderness or with a team is all about hybriding, and every hybrid pker will be against praying too, as it practically eliminates KO potential, therefor drastically lowering the number of kills you get. You'd be stupid to think praying doesn't decrease damage against a hybrid as changing combat styles takes alot more clicks than changing prayers.

just watched a couple of mage bank pk vids, and guess what, in most vids people were praying

[TheAncient]

But why do you class a 1 vs 1 dm as the true show of combat ability? I haven't seen that it's the number one unanimous way to show being better at combat, thus you shouldn't regard of it that way. However much you want to take this topic away from pking, only place where praying matters is, as we have seen pking. This thread is about pking.

 

As for your view, it's only your view. Not everyone looks at combat the same way. You might be good at safe pvp, but it doesn't make you good at pking. We don't really have an unanimous way of showing who is better at combat as a whole. Safe pvp really can't be it, mostly, because it's safe. A good pker wants to be good at pking, not combat. What you think pking should be is meaningless. A good pker doesn't have to be good at safe pvp- it's mostly intelligence and experience that matters while pking, not just pure clicking power. Pkers are an honorable kind that have rules between them to benefit them all. I see nothing wrong with that. You have the right of pking the way you want, but as i've said a number of times, there are consequences.

 

Because in a 1v1 DM of "true combat ability" all the stops are pulled - people can use the best possible equipment, food, etc. without cost being an issue. PKers have to worry about cost and risk when setting up inventories and gear, whereas in true combat cost should not be an issue. As an example, this actually does make a huge difference because magic defense is very expensive, so good magic defense is cost-prohibitive to PKers. This is why tribriding in general sucks for PKing but is necessary for safe Pvp, and in a deathmatch a good tribrid should have a significant advantage over a mage/melee hybrid.

 

More importantly, in 1v1DMs you can't pick / change opponents in the middle of the fight. You can't run.

 

Look at the original post - I mention PKing only in the last line. This thread is, in addition to PKing, also about combat in Runescape as a whole, because people who whine about prayer are everywhere. Moreover, you do not seem to be agreeing to the point that I extrapolated from your reason why not to pray: that PKing is about killing and Not a demonstration of accurate combat ability. This conclusion naturally follows from your reasoning.

[I_am_Not]

@xpx

Just curious, have you pked much since the removal of wilderness?

I know you have Divine/Yak which seem to be pretty much the norm at mage bank anymore.

If so, how often do you see people praying specs?

I see it often in videos and I haven't really experienced MB much myself.

[xpx]

@xpx

Just curious, have you pked much since the removal of wilderness?

I know you have Divine/Yak which seem to be pretty much the norm at mage bank anymore.

If so, how often do you see people praying specs?

I see it often in videos and I haven't really experienced MB much myself.

Most of my pking days were from 2004 to the second quarter of 2007(i was a member of Di for 8 months in 2006) and i haven't very actively mb pk-ed during pvp times as it's complete bs because of loot. Edge pking is actually more fun for the current pvp system. I know that my perception of mb pking is quite a bit different from what i've experienced, but it's likely mb pking will be reinstated more like it was in the old days, though. The current pking system is very much bs.

 

Ancient, that's your opinion. For pkers, there is more to think about than to just winning the fight- if you win the fight with no food left, good luck surviving a 5 minute TB, and good luck using all your best equipment when you know you can lose them. Thus, because pking is more diverse and has alot more factors to it, i regard it as a better show of combat ability. The best pk i've ever gotten is KOing a member of DI in front of mage bank for a whip and then surviving a 2,5 minute tb while a team of 5+ people were trying to tag me. Situations like that make pking oh so much better than safe pvp... I regard someone successful at solo mb pking as the best at combat. Not many can do that.