Protect Prayers looked down upon

[Red_Eyed6]

If you aren't honorable and have a need to prolong a fight for no apparent reason, look for your enemies to pray against you and use cheap tactics on you aswell(running on full food, safing, etc).

How and why is prayer switching cheap? It only prolongs the fight if both people know how to do it well. But that's not true.

If it were deemed honorable, trust me, everyone would be an ace in prayer switching. It's not really a divine skill, even though you might think you are divine for mastering it.

 

/thread

[TheAncient]

If you aren't honorable and have a need to prolong a fight for no apparent reason, look for your enemies to pray against you and use cheap tactics on you aswell(running on full food, safing, etc).

How and why is prayer switching cheap? It only prolongs the fight if both people know how to do it well. But that's not true.

If it were deemed honorable, trust me, everyone would be an ace in prayer switching. It's not really a divine skill, even though you might think you are divine for mastering it.

The fact that people have to take time and learn it shows that it is a skill. I'm not saying it's an amazing skill, I'm just saying it's clearly something that advantages you so why not do it.

[Red_Eyed6]

If you aren't honorable and have a need to prolong a fight for no apparent reason, look for your enemies to pray against you and use cheap tactics on you aswell(running on full food, safing, etc).

How and why is prayer switching cheap? It only prolongs the fight if both people know how to do it well. But that's not true.

If it were deemed honorable, trust me, everyone would be an ace in prayer switching. It's not really a divine skill, even though you might think you are divine for mastering it.

The fact that people have to take time and learn it shows that it is a skill. I'm not saying it's an amazing skill, I'm just saying it's clearly something that advantages you so why not do it.

 

Because, most people will safe against you and run. It's considered not honorable and it makes the ko ability in a fight drop significantly, making pvp boring.

[xpx]

The fact that people have to take time and learn it shows that it is a skill. I'm not saying it's an amazing skill, I'm just saying it's clearly something that advantages you so why not do it.

Because, as you said, when everyone knows how to prayer switch perfectly(and people will learn in a giffie), it doesn't benefit anyone. Why would we all agree upon something that doesn't benefit anyone? sounds stupid. And not as though it doesn't benefit anyone, it will make pking much more costly and make getting kills much harder. Do you want an empty wilderness?

 

The dishonor of prayers really needs a real pker to know. If you aren't a pker, it's seemingly hard to understand the honor behind not praying in nonmulty.

[FirenLazah]

They cant hit high enough to hit through pray :)

[Quyneax]

It benefits people who are better at prayer switching. I don't think everybody is equally good at things (any things, really) even if they are all at their best.

[xpx]

It benefits people who are better at prayer switching. I don't think everybody is equally good at things (any things, really) even if they are all at their best.

The difference is very minute compared to the disadvantages that come from it. Eating full every time you get hit isn't hard, but it does take skill, and not everybody can be equally good at it, so it too can be considered a legit tactic in your book of honor.

 

Realistically, if you are a good enough hybrid, you will excell one way of the other, so there is no reason really to phantomly make wilderness boring by allowing prayers for everyone. Just think, would anyone even bother fighting someone with a divine(protected by prayers) using protection prayers and a full yak of brews? in all likelyhood, no.

[Quyneax]

Well two people with that setup would fight eachother and I'd be happy to watch, sure.

[xpx]

Well two people with that setup would fight eachother and I'd be happy to watch, sure.

happy to watch a ten minute fight where neither player goes below 500 lp and one bolts after? sure... It sure used to be fun to chase scum in the pirates bar with ten people, only to have them teleport.

[Quyneax]

Well two people with that setup would fight eachother and I'd be happy to watch, sure.

happy to watch a ten minute fight where neither player goes below 500 lp and one bolts after? sure... It sure used to be fun to chase scum in the pirates bar with ten people, only to have them teleport.

Yeah I actually enjoy longer fights, yes. Seeing someone run would be a downer, I guess, but that's why you watch duels/clan wars and not Edge pking. A chase across the wilderness near the Chaos Elemental could be fun though.

 

By the way this seems to be an efficiency issue (somewhat) that is very heavily influenced by fun and other people's perception of fun. Interesting to note imo.

[TheAncient]

The fact that people have to take time and learn it shows that it is a skill. I'm not saying it's an amazing skill, I'm just saying it's clearly something that advantages you so why not do it.

Because, as you said, when everyone knows how to prayer switch perfectly(and people will learn in a giffie), it doesn't benefit anyone. Why would we all agree upon something that doesn't benefit anyone? sounds stupid. And not as though it doesn't benefit anyone, it will make pking much more costly and make getting kills much harder. Do you want an empty wilderness?

 

The dishonor of prayers really needs a real pker to know. If you aren't a pker, it's seemingly hard to understand the honor behind not praying in nonmulty.

 

Again, I have issue with this statement because I just don't see that true in most pking vids and in my experience.

 

By your reasoning, PKing should take absolutely no skill and people should expect a 50/50% ratio against people with their own gear. So what's the point?

 

Taken to the extreme, why should we even use food?

 

As a non-pker, I'm really interested in this reasoning so please expand. I'm not trying to be confrontational in saying that - I am actually just interested.

[xpx]

Yeah I actually enjoy longer fights, yes. Seeing someone run would be a downer, I guess, but that's why you watch duels/clan wars and not Edge pking. A chase across the wilderness near the Chaos Elemental could be fun though.

In all likelyhood, a fight like that would take place at mb, and particularly not multy(soloers don't really venture into multy). Also, there would be TONS of good hybrid fights that would all end in one player bolting if prayers were allowed, but if they weren't, fights would actually end in KO's quite frequently, which is a skill that will be nerfed by prayers. Overall, i don't think praying makes good hybriding in real pvp any more skillful(praying takes some skill, but some skill will be lost with using prayers).

 

Again, I have issue with this statement because I just don't see that true in most pking vids and in my experience.

 

By your reasoning, PKing should take absolutely no skill and people should expect a 50/50% ratio against people with their own gear. So what's the point?

 

Taken to the extreme, why should we even use food?

 

Praying doesn't significantly add skill to a fight(and might actually lessen the skill needed) while making pvp much more boring/less beneficial. A good hybrid will have success no matter if they use prayers or not, so why use them?

 

By the way this seems to be an efficiency issue (somewhat) that is very heavily influenced by fun and other people's perception of fun. Interesting to note imo.

It's both a fun and efficiency issue. Praying is bad for both(unless you are a scrub and cry in a pillow every time you die).

[TheAncient]

Praying doesn't significantly add skill to a fight(and might actually lessen the skill needed) while making pvp much more boring/less beneficial. A good hybrid will have success no matter if they use prayers or not, so why use them?

Why not?

What skills are involved in pvp then?

Will a hybrid that uses prayers well really have the same win/loss ratio as someone who doesn't?

 

If I can extrapolate correctly, PKers knowingly give their opponents a chance to win the chance to win in return. This is the PKer mentality and why Pkers find it dishonorable to safe. I disagree with this mentality because I think there are things that you can do in RS combat that make luck less important of a factor.

[xpx]

Praying doesn't significantly add skill to a fight(and might actually lessen the skill needed) while making pvp much more boring/less beneficial. A good hybrid will have success no matter if they use prayers or not, so why use them?

Why not?

What skills are involved in pvp then?

Will a hybrid that uses prayers well really have the same win/loss ratio as someone who doesn't?

 

If I can extrapolate correctly, PKers knowingly give their opponents a chance to win the chance to win in return. This is the PKer mentality and why Pkers find it dishonorable to safe. I disagree with this mentality because I think there are things that you can do in RS combat that make luck less important of a factor.

If that's your philosophy, you can go to grave with it, but don't expect to be fought fairly if you do. I'd be very much content running on full food and safing(in addition to praying, ofcource) every time i see you in wilderness if you insist on praying. There is no need to waste my time and money on someone who fights not to die. I fight to win.

 

I am not sure if they will have the same win:loss ratio, but i'm 100% sure a better skilled pker will be making more money if they don't pray(mostly because they use less supplies). If you don't give your opponent a chance to win, there is no reason to expect others to give you a chance, and if everyone uses cheap tactics on you, pking will be very boring. People pk mostly because of fun, and long fight that end with no winner are the least enjoyable, and praying really creates all those situations.

 

Really, the best skiller analogy i can make to praying in nonmulty is people crashing you in a nonmulty training spot- it doesn't benefit either player and makes training more frustrating. People do it out of convenience, just as people would pray in order to not die. If everyone played to not die, wilderness would be very boring.

[TheAncient]

Praying doesn't significantly add skill to a fight(and might actually lessen the skill needed) while making pvp much more boring/less beneficial. A good hybrid will have success no matter if they use prayers or not, so why use them?

Why not?

What skills are involved in pvp then?

Will a hybrid that uses prayers well really have the same win/loss ratio as someone who doesn't?

 

If I can extrapolate correctly, PKers knowingly give their opponents a chance to win the chance to win in return. This is the PKer mentality and why Pkers find it dishonorable to safe. I disagree with this mentality because I think there are things that you can do in RS combat that make luck less important of a factor.

If that's your philosophy, you can go to grave with it, but don't expect to be fought fairly if you do. I'd be very much content running on full food and safing(in addition to praying, ofcource) every time i see you in wilderness if you insist on praying. There is no need to waste my time and money on someone who fights not to die. I fight to win.

 

I am not sure if they will have the same win:loss ratio, but i'm 100% sure a better skilled pker will be making more money if they don't pray(mostly because they use less supplies). If you don't give your opponent a chance to win, there is no reason to expect others to give you a chance, and if everyone uses cheap tactics on you, pking will be very boring. People pk mostly because of fun, and long fight that end with no winner are the least enjoyable, and praying really creates all those situations.

 

Really, the best skiller analogy i can make to praying in nonmulty is people crashing you in a nonmulty training spot- it doesn't benefit either player and makes training more frustrating. People do it out of convenience, just as people would pray in order to not die. If everyone played to not die, wilderness would be very boring.

 

I never saw PKing as a way of money-making. Including EP farming time I don't think it's very efficient.

 

I see and understand your perspective. But if this is the case, why do people complain about weapons being overpowered? Although they can still KO you, they arent "overpowered" as long as you pray. Prayers aren't overpowered either; it's still pretty easy to die even if you have like 2 seconds of lag and are praying.

 

Even with you praying and safing shark-brew, it still might be possible to KO you if you don't retaliate at all, have no healing from SS, etc. provided I have the right gear and stuff on me. just guessing here, but with good luck a dscim spec followed by a barrage stacked with a claws then two maul hits should be able to KO someone safing (the barrage makes it so that you might switch to range gear -> claws might be more accurate if you leave range gear on)

[i_trollz_u]

Praying doesn't significantly add skill to a fight(and might actually lessen the skill needed) while making pvp much more boring/less beneficial. A good hybrid will have success no matter if they use prayers or not, so why use them?

Why not?

What skills are involved in pvp then?

Will a hybrid that uses prayers well really have the same win/loss ratio as someone who doesn't?

 

If I can extrapolate correctly, PKers knowingly give their opponents a chance to win the chance to win in return. This is the PKer mentality and why Pkers find it dishonorable to safe. I disagree with this mentality because I think there are things that you can do in RS combat that make luck less important of a factor.

If that's your philosophy, you can go to grave with it, but don't expect to be fought fairly if you do. I'd be very much content running on full food and safing(in addition to praying, ofcource) every time i see you in wilderness if you insist on praying. There is no need to waste my time and money on someone who fights not to die. I fight to win.

 

I am not sure if they will have the same win:loss ratio, but i'm 100% sure a better skilled pker will be making more money if they don't pray(mostly because they use less supplies). If you don't give your opponent a chance to win, there is no reason to expect others to give you a chance, and if everyone uses cheap tactics on you, pking will be very boring. People pk mostly because of fun, and long fight that end with no winner are the least enjoyable, and praying really creates all those situations.

 

Really, the best skiller analogy i can make to praying in nonmulty is people crashing you in a nonmulty training spot- it doesn't benefit either player and makes training more frustrating. People do it out of convenience, just as people would pray in order to not die. If everyone played to not die, wilderness would be very boring.

 

I never saw PKing as a way of money-making. Including EP farming time I don't think it's very efficient.

 

I see and understand your perspective. But if this is the case, why do people complain about weapons being overpowered? Although they can still KO you, they arent "overpowered" as long as you pray. Prayers aren't overpowered either; it's still pretty easy to die even if you have like 2 seconds of lag and are praying.

 

Even with you praying and safing shark-brew, it still might be possible to KO you if you don't retaliate at all, have no healing from SS, etc. provided I have the right gear and stuff on me. just guessing here, but with good luck a dscim spec followed by a barrage stacked with a claws then two maul hits should be able to KO someone safing (the barrage makes it so that you might switch to range gear -> claws might be more accurate if you leave range gear on)

 

Not at mid levels (90-105) and against anybody with reasonable defense and gear that is praying melee and safing with tails+brews (Maybe if you're like a maxed 1 def pure and get extremely lucky, but otherwise it's pretty much impossible for most pker builds.) Hell, the d scim is going to miss like 60% of the time anyway, and maul isn't that accurate or fast enough to ko someone without them being able to eat/tele.

[sumondskull6]

Half the fun of PKing is KOing, not getting a kill, but legitimately Koing someone from relatively high LP (700+?). If you throw on protect from melee, the KO potential goes way the hell down, thus "high hp ko's" don't happen due to 50% damage reduction, AKA, there goes half the fun. It just turns into a DM, which really aren't that fun.

 

That's why it's looked down upon.

 

Although that's only true for people trying to have fun, the people just in it for the money... They just throw their [cabbage] fits because they can't kill anyone when they're using Prot prayers.

[The Observer]

Well, I tend to find it takes a bit of the enjoyment out of the whole fight. Mostly because of the reduced risk. Also when your opponent prays, there comes an easy assumption that they're just going to run instead of concentrating on the fight itself. That's why "proper honour codes" are created, when mutual enjoyment is being taken away. "True" dming constitutes a situation where both players are readily aware of their risk and will lose it to the person that they're fighting.

[All_Is_Great]

Praying doesn't significantly add skill to a fight(and might actually lessen the skill needed) while making pvp much more boring/less beneficial. A good hybrid will have success no matter if they use prayers or not, so why use them?

Why not?

What skills are involved in pvp then?

Will a hybrid that uses prayers well really have the same win/loss ratio as someone who doesn't?

 

If I can extrapolate correctly, PKers knowingly give their opponents a chance to win the chance to win in return. This is the PKer mentality and why Pkers find it dishonorable to safe. I disagree with this mentality because I think there are things that you can do in RS combat that make luck less important of a factor.

 

The point is, if you pray, then your opponent will pray. If you safe to full, your opponent will do the same. Then he will run/tele or you will run/tele, depending on who gets luckier with more hits through prayer, and the fight was basically a waste.

[yuriqiu]

Most PKers rely on getting quick KOs (AGS/Claws/DDs/etc) and protection prayer eliminates that. If two pkers go against each other protection isn't advantageous to either so its an unspoken rule to not even bother with it. Soul Split/Smite is much more preferred as it actually forces your opponent to pay attention to prayer as well as hp. Praying tends to be a lose lose situation in pking since both players are now forced to stay for a longer periods of time. (Small exception is in bridding but then again protection prayer is pretty much useless against a good brid so they still tend to use ss/smite)

 

Of course if you aren't a pker and are praying then just pray on and run away from the nasty pker.

[NukeMarine]

Seeing that we now have Damage Absorption in armor, and that even the highest level armor only absorbs around ??% (too lazy to look up), is it reasonable to say that Jagex needs to remove or adapt the PvP prayer? Currently, Protect Prayer is like 50% absorption for damage above 0 hits. Would there be such an outcry if it counted only as 50% for damage above 200 hits?

 

I'm not a PKer, but I think protection prayers are overpowered all around. You can't remove the PvM aspect from the game as a lot of current content was based around the ability to pray. However, there's little reason to not adapt PvP protection prayers especially seeing we're getting back PvP Wilderness. It's a level 43 skill that overpowers level 80 armor, so something is off.

[gremmy]

Most PKers rely on getting quick KOs (AGS/Claws/DDs/etc) and protection prayer eliminates that. If two pkers go against each other protection isn't advantageous to either so its an unspoken rule to not even bother with it. Soul Split/Smite is much more preferred as it actually forces your opponent to pay attention to prayer as well as hp. Praying tends to be a lose lose situation in pking since both players are now forced to stay for a longer periods of time. (Small exception is in bridding but then again protection prayer is pretty much useless against a good brid so they still tend to use ss/smite)

 

Of course if you aren't a pker and are praying then just pray on and run away from the nasty pker.

 

Exactly - if you have the skill and your opponent doesn't you will have a HUGE advantage, because if you can switch to high strength gear and a good special weapon before he/she switches to the appropriate prayer, you might very will end the fight very quickly. This is why using prayers definitely takes skill, that is not argueable. If you're able to switch between turmoil, soul split, 3 protection curses and 6-7 leech curses, that is skill, and is probably the only real difference between hybridders. Anyone can make enough for dragon claws, anyone can get the best food and a yak full of it. I'll bet that a skilled hybrid in mystic/hides/rune and a whip who has mastered pray switching will rip someone in zuriels/bandos/karils and rapier with claws, who can barely switch.

 

I said it before, if you can use protection prayers/curses to your advantage, DO IT, who's gonna stop you? A bunch of kids with a large vocabulary of indelicate words? Honour? This is a game, nobody cares tomorrow.

[TheAncient]

Let's see:

 

At fastest speed, a hybrid (not using knives or Karil's bow) has roughly 2.4-3 seconds between each attack/

1-5) To be able to switch 5 items in one interval (0.6 seconds) (which is ideal because it gives your opponent less time to react), you need at LEAST 500 APM (60 seconds in a minute, 60/0.6 = 100, 100*5=500; at "least" because the interval doesn't start immediately when you start switching)

Also within these three seconds you must:

6) Hotkey to mage book

7) Click barrage

8) Right click target (good barraging technique to do so)

9) Click "Cast Ice barrage -->"

10) Click to move your character away

11) Hotkey Prayer Book

12) Click SS

13) Click Prayer

14) Drink a pot

 

So to be the best hybrid you need about 14 actions in 3 seconds, or 280 APM, not to metnion the 500 APM required to pull off the clean 5-switch.

 

In comparison, most professional starcraft players can only sustain an APM of 200.

 

This analysis is pretty crude, but I'm not claiming it to be mathematically rigourous. I am just trying to show exactly how click intensive good hybriding should be. I don't think a lot of people can match this APM so this is what they would cut out:

 

1-5) To be able to switch 5 items in one interval (0.6 seconds) (which is ideal because it gives your opponent less time to react), you need 500 APM (60 seconds in a minute, 60/0.6 = 100, 100*5=500)

Also within these three seconds you must:

6) Hotkey to mage book

7) Click barrage

8) Click "Cast Ice barrage -->"

9) Click to move your character away

10) Drinking a pot

 

This is about 10 actions in 3 seconds, or 200 APM. By cutting out SS flick you take down the APM requirement from 280 to 200; that's pretty dramatic.

 

Moreover, to be truly good at SS flicking, you can't SS flick every hit. You have to sync it so that your protects fall on your opponent's attacks and your SS fall on your attacks. You also have to get all of the prays correctly. This definitely requires more than a day to learn. Even if it takes you shorter, the vast majority of RS will never be able to learn it. Just look at people at Jad, TD's, and Gulega.

 

 

___

 

 

So really - what it comes down to is that prayers definitely do make you better at combat - PKers just choose not to fight people who pray. But in a deathmatch or 1v1, praying definitely counts. The way I see it, running from a fight should be much more dishonorable because you're just going for easier pickings.

 

What it comes down to is whether you want to be better at combat or want to have fun killing. Based on what I understand from the Pkers' explanation of why not to pray, I should be able to reasonably say that PKing is about killing and NOT about being better at combat.

[yuriqiu]

Most PKers rely on getting quick KOs (AGS/Claws/DDs/etc) and protection prayer eliminates that. If two pkers go against each other protection isn't advantageous to either so its an unspoken rule to not even bother with it. Soul Split/Smite is much more preferred as it actually forces your opponent to pay attention to prayer as well as hp. Praying tends to be a lose lose situation in pking since both players are now forced to stay for a longer periods of time. (Small exception is in bridding but then again protection prayer is pretty much useless against a good brid so they still tend to use ss/smite)

 

Of course if you aren't a pker and are praying then just pray on and run away from the nasty pker.

 

Exactly - if you have the skill and your opponent doesn't you will have a HUGE advantage, because if you can switch to high strength gear and a good special weapon before he/she switches to the appropriate prayer, you might very will end the fight very quickly. This is why using prayers definitely takes skill, that is not argueable. If you're able to switch between turmoil, soul split, 3 protection curses and 6-7 leech curses, that is skill, and is probably the only real difference between hybridders. Anyone can make enough for dragon claws, anyone can get the best food and a yak full of it. I'll bet that a skilled hybrid in mystic/hides/rune and a whip who has mastered pray switching will rip someone in zuriels/bandos/karils and rapier with claws, who can barely switch.

 

I said it before, if you can use protection prayers/curses to your advantage, DO IT, who's gonna stop you? A bunch of kids with a large vocabulary of indelicate words? Honour? This is a game, nobody cares tomorrow.

You can, but most likely no one will fight you. It's just less effort to fight someone who doesn't pray when they aren't that hard to find either. You can be the best prayer switcher in the world but if no one would fight you that still means it's not fun for you.

 

Disadvantage of prayer:

-People not fighting you in low wild

-In high, by the time the person losing the prayer battle realize they'll lose, they have yaked back all their risk

-Mid level = glory out

 

That's only for high lvls though. I'm sure pures with god spells and tbs can find ways around that, but I'm not familiar with that nor am I familiar with anything f2p related.

[gremmy]

Most PKers rely on getting quick KOs (AGS/Claws/DDs/etc) and protection prayer eliminates that. If two pkers go against each other protection isn't advantageous to either so its an unspoken rule to not even bother with it. Soul Split/Smite is much more preferred as it actually forces your opponent to pay attention to prayer as well as hp. Praying tends to be a lose lose situation in pking since both players are now forced to stay for a longer periods of time. (Small exception is in bridding but then again protection prayer is pretty much useless against a good brid so they still tend to use ss/smite)

 

Of course if you aren't a pker and are praying then just pray on and run away from the nasty pker.

 

Exactly - if you have the skill and your opponent doesn't you will have a HUGE advantage, because if you can switch to high strength gear and a good special weapon before he/she switches to the appropriate prayer, you might very will end the fight very quickly. This is why using prayers definitely takes skill, that is not argueable. If you're able to switch between turmoil, soul split, 3 protection curses and 6-7 leech curses, that is skill, and is probably the only real difference between hybridders. Anyone can make enough for dragon claws, anyone can get the best food and a yak full of it. I'll bet that a skilled hybrid in mystic/hides/rune and a whip who has mastered pray switching will rip someone in zuriels/bandos/karils and rapier with claws, who can barely switch.

 

I said it before, if you can use protection prayers/curses to your advantage, DO IT, who's gonna stop you? A bunch of kids with a large vocabulary of indelicate words? Honour? This is a game, nobody cares tomorrow.

You can, but most likely no one will fight you. It's just less effort to fight someone who doesn't pray when they aren't that hard to find either. You can be the best prayer switcher in the world but if no one would fight you that still means it's not fun for you.

 

Disadvantage of prayer:

-People not fighting you in low wild

-In high, by the time the person losing the prayer battle realize they'll lose, they have yaked back all their risk

-Mid level = glory out

 

That's only for high lvls though. I'm sure pures with god spells and tbs can find ways around that, but I'm not familiar with that nor am I familiar with anything f2p related.

 

Many would try to put up a fight, and this is where your chance of ko'ing is.