Account Hijacking & Jagex� Item Return Policy

[Noxx]

Actually, in a case such as you mentioned (im referring to the car rental scenario) the car company (which you said would be Jagex, in this case) would have to give you the option of another car, would they not?. Of course your monthly rental rate will remain as it was before the hijacking of the car you previously used but the point remains that you will infact recieve another car of the same class as the previous one, at the same cost. So if you're going to use that as an arguement would it not be fair to say that the car rental company (Jagex), should give the hijacked account a new "car"?

 

Please Note: I'm simply asking a question, not trying to spark a flame or cause any trolling.

 

I'll admit it was a very bad comparison, however theirs not really any other analogies I could think of to apply something similar, because there isn't really a similarity to "virtual goods" in the "real world".

 

Anywho, my point was more along the lines of "the customer not being able to sue the insurance company, if a car company tells a customer they refuse to replace a stolen rental car". The car company could say "we wont replace anyone's rented car if it's stolen. This is to prevent against drivers fake-stealing cars to profit, which makes our company lose money". The car company would have the right to terminate the lease, tell you to go away, and not replace your car if it's stolen.

 

More or less, I know it's not the best example, but I think you get the point I'm trying to make; it's never your car and you never have the legal right to get one replaced if it's stolen. (Unless its in your contract, which it's not in this case).

Ah alright i see what you mean now. If this was a "rent to own" situation (which it isn't), then further steps could have been taken. But seeing as it isn't, there's nothing the person renting the "item" can do.

 

Anyway, i have to say i am fully behind Jagex on this. It is stated in the rules that giving out personal information to other players is against the rules as this could endanger your account. So if they were able to get the "victim's" recovery answers (assuming there weren't easy to guess answers) using Facebook/Twitter/Youtube she already kind of broke the rules. Only way to know a Runescaper's Facebook account is by knowing her actuall name thus breaking the "personal information rule", or am i wrong? Also i think from now on more players might be a bit more weary about posting videos (more specifically bank videos) on sites like Youtube as this could be a possible way to get your hands on some personal information (i'm not sure on this point as i haven't got a YT account myself).

 

All in all i think Jagex is covering their asses pretty well and handeling the situation the best way possible keeping the majority happy (or atleast not upsetting them).

[All_Is_Great]

Lol so "this person", the person who hoarded all those santas, I'm assuming, got hacked for her entire bank. And now "she" has 0? Ok cool.

[Star_Fox]

I'm confused, did she get her items back or not? :unsure:

 

No, unfortunately. >.>

 

Why is that unfortunate? I've been hacked/phished before and would expect my items back as well.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. :-|

[RU_Insane]

Lol so "this person", the person who hoarded all those santas, I'm assuming, got hacked for her entire bank. And now "she" has 0? Ok cool.

 

Her account was recovered. The rest is correct.

[tripsis]

I can understand why they do not return lost items. When someone's items are stolen, it's easy to return them to the owner if the person who accessed their account just had them sitting on their own account. But if those items are sold and traded away, it gets incredibly complicated for items to be returned to the rightful owner. Many trades would need to be reversed, etc.

[Unb34t4bl3]

$100,000+ worth, gone. Wow... That is pretty serious. I wouldn't be surprised if Chessy had a mental breakdown.

[Star_Fox]

I can understand why they do not return lost items. When someone's items are stolen, it's easy to return them to the owner if the person who accessed their account just had them sitting on their own account. But if those items are sold and traded away, it gets incredibly complicated for items to be returned to the rightful owner. Many trades would need to be reversed, etc.

 

Exactly. Since those items can be sold/exchanged for other items, returning them to its owners can become a very complicated

procedure. The idea has so many flaws because it doesn't work. If items were simply returned by creating new items to

replace them, then holiday rares could suffer a tremendous downfall. Anyways, the policy should stay the way it is.

 

$100,000+ worth, gone. Wow... That is pretty serious. I wouldn't be surprised if Chessy had a mental breakdown.

 

From what I know, Chessy still hasn't figured out that her account got hacked yet. I guess she left for good.

She'll probably just make a short YT video of her quitting, fans might get upset and un-sub/flame and

then leave.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Star_Fox

[Noxx]

$100,000+ worth, gone. Wow... That is pretty serious. I wouldn't be surprised if Chessy had a mental breakdown.

I find that pretty sad to be honest. I know a guy who also recently got "hacked" and lost well over 5 years' worth of "work". I haven't seen him online since that day and according to one of his RL friends he had a mental breakdown and didn't talk for a few days and even went as far as not showing up for school. There was also mention of him not eating for a day or two. I didn't know whether to laugh or feel pitty. I understand that it takes a lot of time to get to where some players are but if you're going to have a mental breakdown over a game then it isn't a game anymore. Then it becomes a job/life/addiction.

[That_Brown_Kid]

I don't think she lost it. Within 2 hours, jmods locked it and banned anyone who received substantial wealth from her in that timeframe.

 

The hackers spent most of their time showing it off instead of doing a ton of damage.

 

I think she lost only 20b.

 

Still that's $20,000. Chessy is friends with tons of jmods too.

[Star_Fox]

$100,000+ worth, gone. Wow... That is pretty serious. I wouldn't be surprised if Chessy had a mental breakdown.

I find that pretty sad to be honest. I know a guy who also recently got "hacked" and lost well over 5 years' worth of "work". I haven't seen him online since that day and according to one of his RL friends he had a mental breakdown and didn't talk for a few days and even went as far as not showing up for school. There was also mention of him not eating for a day or two. I didn't know whether to laugh or feel pitty. I understand that it takes a lot of time to get to where some players are but if you're going to have a mental breakdown over a game then it isn't a game anymore. Then it becomes a job/life/addiction.

 

Still, working on something for 5 years is definitely taking it too far to just call it a "game" don't you think? I wouldn't say addiction, but more like ambition.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Star_Fox

[Noxx]

$100,000+ worth, gone. Wow... That is pretty serious. I wouldn't be surprised if Chessy had a mental breakdown.

I find that pretty sad to be honest. I know a guy who also recently got "hacked" and lost well over 5 years' worth of "work". I haven't seen him online since that day and according to one of his RL friends he had a mental breakdown and didn't talk for a few days and even went as far as not showing up for school. There was also mention of him not eating for a day or two. I didn't know whether to laugh or feel pitty. I understand that it takes a lot of time to get to where some players are but if you're going to have a mental breakdown over a game then it isn't a game anymore. Then it becomes a job/life/addiction.

 

Still, working on something for 5 years is definitely taking it too far to just call it a "game" don't you think? I wouldn't say addiction, but more like ambition.

Nope. It's still a game whether you play 1 hour a year or 15 hours a day. And if your abmitions lay in a game then your priorities aren't where they should be. Then again, it is possible to have more than 1 ambition.

[Unb34t4bl3]

Nope. It's still a game whether you play 1 hour a year or 15 hours a day. And if your abmitions lay in a game then your priorities aren't where they should be. Then again, it is possible to have more than 1 ambition.

 

I'm not trying to advocate RWT in any way, but her ambitions could have covered her retirement if she "converted" everything in put it all into a mutual fund, and just forgot about it for the next 30 years. When it comes to MMOs and the typical user addiction, I'd agree with you. But in the very cases like this one (like the guy who sold his virtual property in Entropa for $600,000 if I remember correctly)... That's why I said I wouldn't be surprised. :razz:

[Owned_Nex]

$100,000+ worth, gone. Wow... That is pretty serious. I wouldn't be surprised if Chessy had a mental breakdown.

I find that pretty sad to be honest. I know a guy who also recently got "hacked" and lost well over 5 years' worth of "work". I haven't seen him online since that day and according to one of his RL friends he had a mental breakdown and didn't talk for a few days and even went as far as not showing up for school. There was also mention of him not eating for a day or two. I didn't know whether to laugh or feel pitty. I understand that it takes a lot of time to get to where some players are but if you're going to have a mental breakdown over a game then it isn't a game anymore. Then it becomes a job/life/addiction.

 

Still, working on something for 5 years is definitely taking it too far to just call it a "game" don't you think? I wouldn't say addiction, but more like ambition.

Nope. It's still a game whether you play 1 hour a year or 15 hours a day. And if your abmitions lay in a game then your priorities aren't where they should be. Then again, it is possible to have more than 1 ambition.

 

Go to South Korea. "E-sports" are not very popular in most countries, but there are places where games are important in life. There is nothing wrong with prioritizing a game.

[danzo]

It's been Jagex's policy since the start, and if they change their position on it there is already a backlog of thousands upon thousands of players who have lost money from bugs, hacked accounts and so forth that would also need to have their items returned. They can't just change the policy because chessy is famous, nor would it be right to do so.

 

There are also a huge number of issues in returning items. If player B hacks player A, taking player A's blue partyhat and selling it anonymously on the ge to player C, how would you return the hat to player A without duping it?

 

I acknowledge your points and I have no answer in those cases.

 

However, in this case - and I quote Mod Mark H - "As soon as we became aware of the situation we acted quickly banning the hijacker's accounts as well as removing any items & wealth stolen. " - which means they had the information they needed to return the items. There would be no duping in this case. But instead of returning them, they removed them forever.

 

If Mod Mark H had hidden behind "terms of service" then that would be different. But he didn't - he wrapped himself in the code of law. The victim in question should have recourse to recover those items from Jagex if Jagex is going to use that same law to seize them from the hijacker.

 

Items taken as a result of hacking can't be stolen when it is convenient for Jagex and not stolen when it isn't.

 

I agree completely. If Jagex doesn't reconsider, I think that Chessy018 should sue Jagex over this. Early discussions on the matter estimated her bank to be worth well over $100,000 in real life cash. Although I agree with Jagex's policy against RWT, I think the prevailing black market rates give at least a minimum figure of those items' value to her.

 

It's true that Jagex doesn't have the manpower to investigate all claimed cases of item loss, and though unfair even in general, in aggregate their existing policy provides the most benefit to the most players. This is considering how many fewer updates, etc, we'd get if they were expending so much manpower on lost item claims. However that general situation doesn't hold true for this specific case, as stated, because they already used the manpower to resolve a high-profile case, so no additional resource expenditure is needed to return Chessy's items.

 

This is like the police having a policy where they can't reimburse everyone for stolen property, since in many cases the property can't be found or the perpetrators can't be tracked down. However, in this specific case, they caught the thieves, have the goods in a pile at the police station, and when Chessy shows up asking for the items, they instead set them on fire while informing her they can't be bothered to return stolen property.

 

The magnitude of the unfairness here is unbelievable.

Ah but if you read the tos, Jagex state all accounts and items belong to them.

[Noxx]

$100,000+ worth, gone. Wow... That is pretty serious. I wouldn't be surprised if Chessy had a mental breakdown.

I find that pretty sad to be honest. I know a guy who also recently got "hacked" and lost well over 5 years' worth of "work". I haven't seen him online since that day and according to one of his RL friends he had a mental breakdown and didn't talk for a few days and even went as far as not showing up for school. There was also mention of him not eating for a day or two. I didn't know whether to laugh or feel pitty. I understand that it takes a lot of time to get to where some players are but if you're going to have a mental breakdown over a game then it isn't a game anymore. Then it becomes a job/life/addiction.

 

Still, working on something for 5 years is definitely taking it too far to just call it a "game" don't you think? I wouldn't say addiction, but more like ambition.

Nope. It's still a game whether you play 1 hour a year or 15 hours a day. And if your abmitions lay in a game then your priorities aren't where they should be. Then again, it is possible to have more than 1 ambition.

 

Go to South Korea. "E-sports" are not very popular in most countries, but there are places where games are important in life. There is nothing wrong with prioritizing a game.

Lol okay now this is becoming a joke. You're seriously going to use a country such as South Korea to back your statement? I'm sorry, but i find it VERY hard to take that seriously.

[zotto]

South korea is a real country. With real people in them.

Edited March 20, 2011 by zotto

[lordkafei]

In an effort to gently steer this thread back in the direction I intended:

 

To everyone who cuts/pastes the Jagex ToS:

 

Do you not think that Beijing Arctic Ice Technology Development Co Ltd. and Ymir Entertainment Co. both had similar terms of service?

 

ref: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/fun.games/12/19/china.gamer.reut/index.html

ref: http://gulfnews.com/business/technology/a-very-real-fine-for-a-virtual-theft-1.709655

 

Lets note that the cases I mention involve court action against other players and not the developers - cases to recover items taken in various unlawful manners. In both of the cases I mention, the plaintiffs were successful and received monetary damages.

 

But in the Chinese case:

 

Reuters[/b]']

In the end, Beijing's Chaoyang District People's Court ruled on Thursday that the firm should restore the player's lost items, finding the company liable because of loopholes in the server programs that made it easy for hackers to break in.

 

I dont see any indication of a similar stipulation in the Metin 2 case.

 

Still think that Jagex can hide behind their ToS when other companies couldnt?

[zotto]

In that case they should ban chessy for a trust scam. Merchant clans relied on trust scams.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Perhaps some should work out why and how they've been 'hacked' in the first place. So, why are they? Accessing dodgy websites? Installing bogus programs or clicking on stupid stuff sent through the likes of Facebook?

[ghjkl]

They used the recovery feature

[Guest jrhairychest]

They used the recovery feature

Sorry I'm lost here, someone used the acc recovery feature on someone elses account?

[ghjkl]

Yes

[Veiva]

$100,000+ worth, gone. Wow... That is pretty serious. I wouldn't be surprised if Chessy had a mental breakdown.

I find that pretty sad to be honest. I know a guy who also recently got "hacked" and lost well over 5 years' worth of "work". I haven't seen him online since that day and according to one of his RL friends he had a mental breakdown and didn't talk for a few days and even went as far as not showing up for school. There was also mention of him not eating for a day or two. I didn't know whether to laugh or feel pitty. I understand that it takes a lot of time to get to where some players are but if you're going to have a mental breakdown over a game then it isn't a game anymore. Then it becomes a job/life/addiction.

 

Still, working on something for 5 years is definitely taking it too far to just call it a "game" don't you think? I wouldn't say addiction, but more like ambition.

Nope. It's still a game whether you play 1 hour a year or 15 hours a day. And if your abmitions lay in a game then your priorities aren't where they should be. Then again, it is possible to have more than 1 ambition.

 

Say I spent 5 years on collecting as many kinds of butterflies as possible. I travel the world, searching for these exotic creatures. Then one day, I come home to find the frames that the butterflies in are smashed, the butterflies gone or destroyed. You would tell me, "it's just a hobby dude, don't worry!!" Yes, it may have been a hobby. But now 5 years of work, regardless of its condition, is gone. This applies to games, to everything hobby-like. Work is not the one of the only priorities in life that should be considered "worthy" of getting upset over, y'know (not that you say that...). And who is who to tell another where their ambitions should be, regardless of the ambition, as long as it doesn't hurt others in any way?

 

Frankly would I get upset over losing my RS account or wealth (or lack thereof)? No. But I'm not everyone.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Veiva

[lordkafei]

They used the recovery feature

Sorry I'm lost here, someone used the acc recovery feature on someone elses account?

 

Exactly.

 

Over the past couple of days, Ive read a lot of people claiming to do this on various fansites. With all the stat tracking sites nowadays, its fairly easy to identify accounts that are inactive and attempt to harvest them.

[Gravy]

harvest, love it.