Account Hijacking & Jagex� Item Return Policy

[Helm_Lardar]

I think it would be perfectly fair for Jagex to make the judgement on wether they'll give items back. e.g. We'll give you your stuff back if it's worth over 10b in GE price woudl be a pretty good stopper.

[wioneo]

I think it would be perfectly fair for Jagex to make the judgement on wether they'll give items back. e.g. We'll give you your stuff back if it's worth over 10b in GE price woudl be a pretty good stopper.

 

OR they could save a lot of time, effort, and grief from several players.

I feel like the "what the hell this is unfair celebrity treatment" crowd would be a lot more vocal than the current "awe I feel bad for her, they should help because they can" crowd.

 

Also, this should not only generate months of stupid tax revenue, but even help potentially fix what was apparently a horribly broken system.

So greater good n all that...

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Giving back lost items for any reason wouldn't be right, IMO. It's always been our burden to keep our accounts secure.

 

No one said put any personally identifiable information on the Internet (FB, MySpace, forum profile, etc). You choose to do that, then you accept the potential consequence of having your account recoveries bruteforced.

 

While the lawsuit may be one thing, it wouldn't get far. There's no sense in dragging litigation into this issue. Did the player lose tangible wealth? How would the courts relegate such a case? Would it open the floodgates for things to be returned on bugs (and a whole slew of players making claims)? The more ideal approach is to not return items, for any reason, and I wouldn't believe that the courts could force Jagex to give back the items.

 

Not even for a popular player.

 

[You'd like to think that one's security would increase tenfold if they were popular or well-known...]

[Sir_Squab]

Jagex removed 1k santas from the game. Of course there are economic implications.

 

Not really. The victim was a hoarder. The Santas sat in her bank all the time, so either way, it's like Santas never existed on the market because they weren't a part of the supply. Santas were fluctuating all the time even when she had 1K Santas in her bank. Demand for Santas went up because she was hoarding them, thus restricting the supply. Demand for Santas will remain the same because having them removed is essentially the same as not trading that wealth at all, thus keeping the supply the same as before: restricted. Because of this, I would argue that the Santas being removed have a minimal affect on the economy.

All the idiots (and there are a lot of them) are panicking because they are too dumb to realize this. Once these [developmentally delayed]s come to their senses in a few days, the market will stabilize.

 

Agreed. The market in actuality has the same levels of supply -- at least -- for Santas as it had before the victim's items were removed. The only real thing to fear for the market is panic trading which influences demand, as I outlined before in one of my earlier posts in this thread. It always seems to go back to not thinking the issue through enough. :P

 

I was reading an article in the paper today about emotional investment. Apparently who wins the Super Bowl can have a significant impact on the economy. Emotional reactions to some sort of event has a much, much larger effect then the event in general. This applies everywhere as a general rule.

 

In an effort to gently steer this thread back in the direction I intended:

 

To everyone who cuts/pastes the Jagex ToS:

 

Do you not think that Beijing Arctic Ice Technology Development Co Ltd. and Ymir Entertainment Co. both had similar terms of service?

 

ref: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/fun.games/12/19/china.gamer.reut/index.html

ref: http://gulfnews.com/business/technology/a-very-real-fine-for-a-virtual-theft-1.709655

 

Lets note that the cases I mention involve court action against other players and not the developers - cases to recover items taken in various unlawful manners. In both of the cases I mention, the plaintiffs were successful and received monetary damages.

 

But in the Chinese case:

 

Reuters[/b]']

In the end, Beijing's Chaoyang District People's Court ruled on Thursday that the firm should restore the player's lost items, finding the company liable because of loopholes in the server programs that made it easy for hackers to break in.

 

I dont see any indication of a similar stipulation in the Metin 2 case.

 

Still think that Jagex can hide behind their ToS when other companies couldnt?

 

See, see, from what I see there, that is a much more relevant example then one player going to cout against another player for item theft.

 

Personally, considering she isn't active now, I'd expert her to take one look at her account, say [bleep] it, maybe a few tears/yt vids, and move on with her life. I wouldn't expect her to have much of an emotional reaction to it if she isn't active on RS, I'd just expert her to remove herself even further from RS.

[Yoko Kurama]

Giving back lost items for any reason wouldn't be right, IMO. It's always been our burden to keep our accounts secure.

 

I have always opposed this policy and will continue to do so. I was just as upset--if not more-- when it happened to the guy who lost his bank to the MA glitch, and I am similarly upset that this happened to a somewhat dubious character like Chessy018. I am of the opinion, that Jagex should refund items for *all* players whenever and wherever it can be proven some unintended mishap of this nature has occurred--and whenever and whereever it is viable/feasible to do so. Quite a few other companies do this, I hardly see why Jagex should be any different--especially considering this is relatively painless and inexpensive. I think if people have invested time and effort and emotion, and have subsequently suffered egregiously as in such cases, Jagex should honor that emotional investment and attachment--it seems the humane(I am aware of the irony of this term) thing to do.

 

Now one could make the argument that isn't fair for Jagex to implement this policy change only in response to the misfortunes of an affluent and wealthy player--but I really don't see that as too much of a problem. Yes, it is somewhat unfair, but that is life for you, changes often come from the behests of elites--not from the plight of the helpless. I think the RS community should seize this opportunity to petition Jagex to implement the aforementioned policy change. It is in the best interests of everyone.

[zotto]

This thread has been informative though.

 

I had 100M in the bank at the beginning of this thread. Not a lot of money for Chessy, but for me it is. I then considered what is important. I subsequently bought 4700 frost dragon bones to get my prayer up and finally get 138 combat level.

 

And in order to clean out my bank.

 

A skill can always be recovered. GP and rares cannot.

 

Thank you Chessy.

 

ps. I still blame you for merch'ing though.

[DarkDude]

Giving back lost items for any reason wouldn't be right, IMO. It's always been our burden to keep our accounts secure.

 

I have always opposed this policy and will continue to do so. I was just as upset--if not more-- when it happened to the guy who lost his bank to the MA glitch, and I am similarly upset that this happened to a somewhat dubious character like Chessy018. I am of the opinion, that Jagex should refund items for *all* players whenever and wherever it can be proven some unintended mishap of this nature has occurred--and whenever and whereever it is viable/feasible to do so. Quite a few other companies do this, I hardly see why Jagex should be any different--especially considering this is relatively painless and inexpensive. I think if people have invested time and effort and emotion, and have subsequently suffered egregiously as in such cases, Jagex should honor that emotional investment and attachment--it seems the humane(I am aware of the irony of this term) thing to do.

 

Now one could make the argument that isn't fair for Jagex to implement this policy change only in response to the misfortunes of an affluent and wealthy player--but I really don't see that as too much of a problem. Yes, it is somewhat unfair, but that is life for you, changes often come from the behests of elites--not from the plight of the helpless. I think the RS community should seize this opportunity to petition Jagex to implement the aforementioned policy change. It is in the best interests of everyone.

 

RuneScape is a very economy based game, much much more so than something like WoW. In RuneScape you "need" money and items of significant worth to level your skills and do well within the game. For this reason bringing extra items into the game in anyway could have a significant impact on the game. Then that is increased ten fold when you're talking about discontinued items. If you hack someone, they have 10 party hats then you sell them on the GE to some random people. You then can't take those hats away from the people who bought them and giving 10 new hats back to the person who hacked just isn't feasible and would have a major impact on the amount of rares. You'd have a lot of people faking being hacked to try and get their items back while also having their friends benefit. Really, it's just not right for them to do and would have too big of an impact on the game.

 

Although in this case, as the rares can be located it could be possible to get the items off the locked accounts and give them back to Chessy. If the items are completely taken out of the game (like in this case they would be unless Chessy gets them back) then they should be given back, although for a lot of things it's hard to prove that the items are lost (through glitches etc.).

[Blyaunte]

Sorry I'm lost here, someone used the acc recovery feature on someone elses account?

Yes

To be honest, this is not as difficult as one might suspect, especially if you're inclined to passing personal information around to other people. People talk and they talk more about "famous people" than they do about anything else ...

:unsure:

[Omali]

One of the major reasons that Jagex doesn't give back stolen goods is because it's so easy to fake it.

Log onto your account at a friends house

Transfer GP to a pure

Claim you were hacked

???

Profit!

 

In response to this particular instance; It's only fair that Jagex doesn't give her items back just because she's famous. There technicaly shouldn't be any economic damages to Jagex having destroyed the stolen items since they were already out of the economy and since the hacker's accounts were perm banned anyway.

 

Pure is banned and gold is transferred back. Were you trying to make some kind of point?

[Stewie_Griffen]

The rightful owner owes me 10k, so please give her money back.

[vivimancer]

1 Chessy was a well known player with a massive personal fortune, scammers would have had 40 billion reasons to steal her account

2 As RWTing is a against the TOS, items including santa hats have no value in the real world unless you are cheating

3 Sure cheesy might of been 'famous' or even 'a celebrity' but to treat her differently to other players sets a bad prescent

4 Runescape is sometimes known by less kind groups as 'wombscape' for its overt pandering to the lower age groups, de-insentivising the need to keep you account secure needlessly dumbs down

the game and puts a lot more pressure on Jagex to go 'ott' on ways to secure the game which would hurt its business even more.

[Jaffy1]

Online game Runescape has more than 100 million active players and play revolves around collecting and spending virtual cash and loot.

 

The company said it was working with UK police and the FBI to track down and catch those targeting Runescape.

Seriously?! This makes me facepalm.

 

RuneScape is a game for crying out loud. Surely there are more pressing matters than finding a random teenager who happens to have guessed a person's recovery details?

It's the player's responsibility to make sure their account is hard to recover, and it is Jagex' responsibility to ensure no-one without recovery answers and previous passwords can't get on other people's accounts.

 

As for returning items. No. Not just because of the reasons DarkDude was kind enough to point out, but also because anyone who apparently doesn't seem to care enough to properly secure their account and in-game stuff to not notice being hijacked within the time they had to recover it, shouldn't be complaining imo.

 

Way too much drama, time, money and effort put into something so trivial..

[Helm_Lardar]

Online game Runescape has more than 100 million active players and play revolves around collecting and spending virtual cash and loot.

 

The company said it was working with UK police and the FBI to track down and catch those targeting Runescape.

Seriously?! This makes me facepalm.

 

RuneScape is a game for crying out loud. Surely there are more pressing matters than finding a random teenager who happens to have guessed a person's recovery details?

It's the player's responsibility to make sure their account is hard to recover, and it is Jagex' responsibility to ensure no-one without recovery answers and previous passwords can't get on other people's accounts.

 

As for returning items. No. Not just because of the reasons DarkDude was kind enough to point out, but also because anyone who apparently doesn't seem to care enough to properly secure their account and in-game stuff to not notice being hijacked within the time they had to recover it, shouldn't be complaining imo.

 

Way too much drama, time, money and effort put into something so trivial..

 

It's about losing business. It's a game, but it makes a lot of money. If people hear that the rich and famous get hacked, they want to know about it and they want to avoid the same thing. Cases like these show jagex are doing something and reassure customers, protecting jagex's business. Equally, the ingame items do have some kind of value, if only through (illegal) RWTing.

[lordkafei]

Seriously?! This makes me facepalm.

 

RuneScape is a game for crying out loud. Surely there are more pressing matters than finding a random teenager who happens to have guessed a person's recovery details?

It's the player's responsibility to make sure their account is hard to recover, and it is Jagex' responsibility to ensure no-one without recovery answers and previous passwords can't get on other people's accounts.

 

As for returning items. No. Not just because of the reasons DarkDude was kind enough to point out, but also because anyone who apparently doesn't seem to care enough to properly secure their account and in-game stuff to not notice being hijacked within the time they had to recover it, shouldn't be complaining imo.

 

Way too much drama, time, money and effort put into something so trivial..

 

I notice your comments are rather one-sided...

 

What about the random teenager - was his pursuit of personal details and other players virtual items also trivial?

 

That random teenager didnt just happen to guess recovery details - it was a concerted effort to find them.

[Jaffy1]

I notice your comments are rather one-sided...

 

What about the “random teenager” - was his pursuit of personal details and other players’ virtual items also “trivial”?

 

That “random teenager” didn’t just “happen to guess” recovery details - it was a concerted effort to find them.

Fair enough, but is it not everyone's own choice to expose themselves to whichever degree they do on the Internet?

Would you be able to find out who I am? I'm sure you would be, with some effort or luck.

 

Does that mean you can "recover" my account, or even guess the answers to my recovery questions? Nope.

 

Is it unethical to find information someone put on the net themselves, willingly, knowing that others could view it?

It sure is to abuse it, but personal details are only as personal as you make them.

[Bangin_Blonde]

So if these virtual items are the exclusive property of Jagex, could I sue them on a totally unrelated matter, and accept the items on the game in lieu of monetary payment?

 

Perhaps for some reason Mod Poppy sues for sexual harrassment, wins, and is awared 42 Pink Party Hats, 12 Christmas Crackers, 19 Furies, and a Tuna?

[Bladewing]

my favorite part of the BBC article was when they said that 1m gp = $5 :D

[Bangin_Blonde]

my favorite part of the BBC article was when they said that 1m gp = $5 :D

 

 

Billy Mays here for Real Worth Trading!

[Bladewing]

what i meant was this

 

1m = $5 is NOWHERE near the price of gp. if you could sell 1m for $5 i would quit my job and play runescape merchscape full time. serious merching could get you over $100 an hour.

 

edit: for the record i don't rwt. but if it were 1m = $5 i would really start considering it, seeing as the college degree i'm working towards wouldn't pay half of what runescape would.

[Bangin_Blonde]

what i meant was this

 

1m = $5 is NOWHERE near the price of gp. if you could sell 1m for $5 i would quit my job and play runescape merchscape full time. serious merching could get you over $100 an hour.

 

edit: for the record i don't rwt. but if it were 1m = $5 i would really start considering it, seeing as the college degree i'm working towards wouldn't pay half of what runescape would.

 

 

Hi, Billy Mays here for RWT-clean! And since I'm completely jacked up on Cocaine and Oxycodone I want to promote a brand new product. RWT-Clean, The new product that you simply spray on your computer screen and it completely erases any evidence of purchasing Runescape cash from third world Asian laborers. Watch as wipe away the evidence like you used the tears of a thousand Chinese forced game laborers. Bam, knocks it right out!

[ghjkl]

what i meant was this

 

1m = $5 is NOWHERE near the price of gp. if you could sell 1m for $5 i would quit my job and play runescape merchscape full time. serious merching could get you over $100 an hour.

 

edit: for the record i don't rwt. but if it were 1m = $5 i would really start considering it, seeing as the college degree i'm working towards wouldn't pay half of what runescape would.

 

 

Hi, Billy Mays here for RWT-clean! And since I'm completely jacked up on Cocaine and Oxycodone I want to promote a brand new product. RWT-Clean, The new product that you simply spray on your computer screen and it completely erases any evidence of purchasing Runescape cash from third world Asian laborers. Watch as wipe away the evidence like you used the tears of a thousand Chinese forced game laborers. Bam, knocks it right out!

is bladewing is some chinese forced game laborer now?

god damn trolls...

the majority of the cash provided for rwt now are due to high lvls/merchers, not chinese gold farmers

[Dragonlordjl]

what i meant was this

 

1m = $5 is NOWHERE near the price of gp. if you could sell 1m for $5 i would quit my job and play runescape merchscape full time. serious merching could get you over $100 an hour.

 

edit: for the record i don't rwt. but if it were 1m = $5 i would really start considering it, seeing as the college degree i'm working towards wouldn't pay half of what runescape would.

 

 

Hi, Billy Mays here for RWT-clean! And since I'm completely jacked up on Cocaine and Oxycodone I want to promote a brand new product. RWT-Clean, The new product that you simply spray on your computer screen and it completely erases any evidence of purchasing Runescape cash from third world Asian laborers. Watch as wipe away the evidence like you used the tears of a thousand Chinese forced game laborers. Bam, knocks it right out!

is bladewing is some chinese forced game laborer now?

god damn trolls...

the majority of the cash provided for rwt now are due to high lvls/merchers, not chinese gold farmers

 

They see me trollin, they hatin.

 

Tryin' to catch me posting dirty.

[Bangin_Blonde]

what i meant was this

 

1m = $5 is NOWHERE near the price of gp. if you could sell 1m for $5 i would quit my job and play runescape merchscape full time. serious merching could get you over $100 an hour.

 

edit: for the record i don't rwt. but if it were 1m = $5 i would really start considering it, seeing as the college degree i'm working towards wouldn't pay half of what runescape would.

 

 

Hi, Billy Mays here for RWT-clean! And since I'm completely jacked up on Cocaine and Oxycodone I want to promote a brand new product. RWT-Clean, The new product that you simply spray on your computer screen and it completely erases any evidence of purchasing Runescape cash from third world Asian laborers. Watch as wipe away the evidence like you used the tears of a thousand Chinese forced game laborers. Bam, knocks it right out!

is bladewing is some chinese forced game laborer now?

god damn trolls...

the majority of the cash provided for rwt now are due to high lvls/merchers, not chinese gold farmers

 

They see me trollin, they hatin.

 

Tryin' to catch me posting dirty.

 

It was because of his avatar. I was just having a little fun. Nothing againt Bladewing.

[Bladewing]

none taken, i figured that's what your intentions were. ;)

[Bangin_Blonde]

Boredom causes strange things to happen.