Observations

[muggiwhplar]

The following are some random observations I've made as a person who no longer plays this game as much as he used to. This topic doesn't particularly have a primary thesis or argument, and was mostly written w/o much structure. I'd mostly just like to hear your thoughts.

 

 

Correlation between seriousness and pain/pleasure:

I believe that the more seriously you take this game, the more pleasure you can derive out of it as well as the more pain. For example, a few years ago back when I was really into this game, I recall freaking out when getting a rare boss drop. It felt great! Yet, as time went on and I found more interesting hobbies to devote my time to, I quit taking RS as seriously. Last spring break I got on RS for the first time in several months to kill Tormented Demons. I ended up getting four claw drops worth 100M in just a matter of days yet I felt no excitement. I was killing the Demons because they were fun to hunt-- I didn't care about the drops anymore.

 

Conversely, in the past if I suffered a major loss in RS, I would be devastated. I know many people still experience thisyou see people trying to quit playing all the time after such losses. Nowadays, though, if I experience any major losses my reaction is more like, That sucks rather than devastation/shock/depression. It simply doesn't affect me like it used to. I can re-obtain anything I lose in time if I want to... there is no rush or pressure. RS isn't going anywhere.

 

 

Ego

Recall the debate there was on crashing a while back on these forums. Recall how riled-up everyone got. I don't think it would have been such a serious issue if people didn't value their time on this game so greatly. Over winter break I returned to play for the first time since summer. I went to kill TDs again for schmidts and giggles, and was doing fine solo'ing two at a time as usual. A random guy's demon strays into my "territory" and interferes w/ my rhythm so I kill it. The guy freaks out and spends the next 20 minutes attacking all of my demons. I still get the kills, somehow, despite his superior stats. He gets angrier and angrier. Finally, he says "ok, kid, brb with ovls and rapier!" I roll my eyes and enjoy my 5 minutes of peace. He returns, and goes back to attacking all my demons. Miraculously, I still get more than half the kills. He remains angry. I'm still just laughing to myself. A friend invites me to go dungeoneer w/ him so I tele out. As the home-teleport spell is activating, I just think to myself about how angry this guy got over something so trivial. Too much of an ego... too serious. He would've been happier sticking to his one demon rather than trying to "show me who's boss."

 

 

The Buddhist Principle of Material Possessions/Desires --> Suffering

In RL, Im a very frugal person and have very few possessions. Yet, I realized in RS I have a ton of possessions. In RS, youre expected to have everything. The game is fueled by desiredesire to obtain what you dont have. As I mentioned in my previous topic (don't bump), the human brain is programmed to always want more. Once you get more, that becomes normal, and you want more again. For example, you may spend all day forcing yourself against your will to level up a skill. After reaching that level, guess what? You probably want the next level now.

 

Now, in RL its easy to ignore this brain process, by appreciating the things you already have and maintaining yourself with the bare essentials. However, in RS, there are no bare essentials. Theres almost always a next level. Optimum equipment is mandatory these days. You cant kill Bandos w/o 138 combat, overloads, and a rapier. You cant kill Nex w/o optimum ranging equipment. You can't have fun w/o things you don't have. Yet, even with "everything" on this game-- there's still always something missing. Even the "maxed" players are now trying to get 200M xp in every single skill. If they are having fun pursuing that goal, then that's great. Otherwise, that's kind of concerning. When free trade returned, some people managed to make billions from staking-- and they still were bored. The money didn't fix their problems/boredom.

 

The general theme of the game seems to be-- the more suffering you can tolerate, the better gear youll get, so you can do more things. If youre one of those people who truly doesnt enjoy training skills or doing tasks to earn money, you probably shouldnt be playing this game.

 

Did you know that a Person A, who makes $50k/yr, while his friends make $25k/yr, will be happier than Person B, who makes $100k/yr, while his friends make $200k/yr? You're constantly reminded that you're not the best on this game. There's always someone one step ahead of you. Jagex seems to be well aware of this fact, and has done a good job of keeping loyal customers because of it. Past a certain point, desire and envy seems to fuel RuneScape more than fun and entertainment.

 

 

Final Thoughts

Do you think people would still become devastated after losing all their hard-earned equipment if it was actually FUN to re-obtain it?

 

How is it that the people who have nothing on this game are having more fun than the people who have everything?

 

At the same time, how is it that the people who have nothing wish they had everything? All the while, the people who have everything wish they could have as much fun as they did when they started playing, and had nothing?

[Stev]

How is it that the people who have nothing on this game are having more fun than the people who have everything?

There's very little motivation to play. GWD is fun with a chance at a reward. But, when you no longer need that reward, or it becomes so small in comparison to your bank... It's little fun.

[Bladewing]

the marginal benefit of 10m gp is much higher when your bank is only 10m than when it is 10b.

[IHasChicken]

I just got hacked for 180m, and sure, it's hard to bounce back from that, but I just recovered my account after nearly a month of trying, and just losing that money isn't going to stop me.

 

It's really not that hard to make money back, especially when you get it by doing something that derives pleasure (for me that would be slaying/bosshunting)

 

And yes, I have always enjoyed having less money. That's why I have always never had more than a 200m bank, but I have made over 1b on this account, whenever I get a decent amount of money, I would spend it on a buyable for 2 reasons, 1. It would further the advancement of my skills, and 2. It gave me more motivation to do what I like to make more money as a byproduct.

 

I'm running out of buyables now (already bought 99 herby, summ, pray, and smith,) but after I get con/craft and the lower buyables of cook/fletch/fm, I'll probably invest in a lower rare like a mask or a santa every time I get a 100m cash pile, and then sell all of them when I think I have enough for a divine/phat/nex armour piece.

 

It's very easy to artificially create that buddhist ideal by just having fun with your money and not hoarding it.

[TheAncient]

your ideas apply as much to real life as they do to runescape. not saying that your thoughts aren't valid - i think they are, even if i don't completely agree - but people tend not to listen when others directly tell them how to think.

[Golvellius]

I can definitely see a correlation between misery, pain, ego, and the holy magnet of elitism, "efficiency".

Some of these people even go as far as to viciously troll threads involving community based events which don't focus on maximizing xp or gp rates.

I suspect that strong aversions to anything labeled "just for fun" is a reflection of deep feelings of conflict coming to the surface when the individual begins to realize their obsession with competition and the many forms upon which success can be judged in runescape (xp, xp/hr, gp, and gp/hr).

 

The obvious signs of this suffering are:

The need to justify everything they do with abstract mathematics which may be applied without a realistic basis for analysis and poorly labeled graphs.

The need to define maximum xp generation rates and the inability to handle constructive criticism.

The need to form "elite" societies that preach superiority, apartness from the common player, and how to be a "pro".

The need to tell people what to do and chastise others for differing opinions using cut and paste butchery from websites like wikipedia.

 

 

Final Thoughts

Do you think people would still become devastated after losing all their hard-earned equipment if it was actually FUN to re-obtain it?

No they wouldn't.

So that brings up the question why risk things that were hard won in a battle with other players?

Perhaps, its because you can make the other guy feel devastated and this gives some a perverse pleasure.

I suspect this may be the case, but I personally only do safe PVP.

[IHasChicken]

I can definitely see a correlation between misery, pain, ego, and the holy magnet of elitism, "efficiency".

Some of these people even go as far as to viciously troll threads involving community based events which don't focus on maximizing xp or gp rates.

I suspect that strong aversions to anything labeled "just for fun" is a reflection of deep feelings of conflict coming to the surface when the individual begins to realize their obsession with competition and the many forms upon which success can be judged in runescape (xp, xp/hr, gp, and gp/hr).

 

The obvious signs of this suffering are:

The need to justify everything they do with abstract mathematics which may be applied without a realistic basis for analysis and poorly labeled graphs.

The need to define maximum xp generation rates and the inability to handle constructive criticism.

The need to form "elite" societies that preach superiority, apartness from the common player, and how to be a "pro".

The need to tell people what to do and chastise others for differing opinions using cut and paste butchery from websites like wikipedia.

 

 

Final Thoughts

Do you think people would still become devastated after losing all their hard-earned equipment if it was actually FUN to re-obtain it?

No they wouldn't.

So that brings up the question why risk things that were hard won in a battle with other players?

Perhaps, its because you can make the other guy feel devastated and this gives some a perverse pleasure.

I suspect this may be the case, but I personally only do safe PVP.

 

Tl;dr.

 

Btw, have you EVER posted a constructive or positive post?

 

Just sayin'.

[Aneron]

My impression with this game is that most people put up with boredom in exchange for the occasional vibe that comes from a level or drop or pk. As levels get farther apart, and lucky drops become less of your bank proportionally, the vibe becomes weaker while the boredom remains constant. At least that's what happened with me.

 

People who keep grinding out 200Ms might actually enjoy it (which is puzzling), but I think more likely they just feel committed to RS because of how much they've put in the pot already, or they just haven't stumbled onto something else to pour their free time into.

 

And it does make sense that the less emotionally invested you are in this game (or anything), the smaller in magnitude the highs and lows you get from it are.

[Obtaurian]

I'm a lot like IHasChicken - money isn't a big concern of mine and it just so happens that the things I enjoy doing in Runescape are also good money (aside from dungeoneering). I'm constantly spending my money as I make it because I just don't have a real need for a large cashpile. As long as I can continue to solo TDs and slay, money just isn't an issue to me.

 

And I know what you mean, Muggi, about not getting excited over drops (well, most drops). Nowadays, a drop from most bosses will usually give me that "[bleep] YEAH!" moment, but it's just a moment; it's just more money to spend on more overloads or more logs for 99 firemaking, etc. The only drop I've had that literally felt like winning the lottery was my hexhunter. I still haven't gotten over that, lol. A solo divine from corp would be probably illicit a similar reaction.

 

Dying doesn't really bother me, either. If I lose a bunch of chaotics . . . oh well, time to dg. If I lose a barrows set or a zerker ring . . . oh well, time to go to TDs and have some fun while I'm making that money back (neither has happened to me, but just sayin').

 

Uh, now I feel like I'm rambling.

 

tl;dr I don't do anything I don't like in this game, and it just so happens that what I like to do makes me money.

[TheAncient]

Some of these people even go as far as to viciously troll threads [that are irrelevant]

 

The need to justify everything they do

 

It's funny because he doesn't see the blatant irony

 

In any case, I'm fine because the most efficient moneymaking method I have is also a lot of fun

[Dragonlordjl]

Dungeoneering is the only part of the game I still care about.

 

I am poor by most peoples' standards (my net worth, including OVL, is probably around 150m), but I have little desire for more money. I don't see myself buying any skills, other than eventually Summoning levels, since Jagex has gone out of their way to make non-combat skills worthless. And all the items in the game are either less than 70m or 600m+. So since I have never been lucky, why bother?

[n64jive]

The game mechanics work like this:

 

90% of the time you spend grinding to achieve levels to enjoy the fun activities.

the other 10%, you actually enjoy what you are doing...

 

Why do you think botters exist? To get to that 10% without having to actually endure the 90%....

 

Who is the real evil here? I wish I knew my history better, but I guarantee this scenario has played out in history before. You know, where everyone supports the "good guys", when really the "bad" guys just see things through a better light. Had the British won the United States Revolutionary War....Had the South won the United States Civil War?...

 

Just saying...makes you think.

 

PS. Please don't take the comparison too literally. I am not trying directly compare the evils of slavery to botting.

[TheAncient]

Dungeoneering is the only part of the game I still care about.

 

I am poor by most peoples' standards (my net worth, including OVL, is probably around 150m), but I have little desire for more money. I don't see myself buying any skills, other than eventually Summoning levels, since Jagex has gone out of their way to make non-combat skills worthless. And all the items in the game are either less than 70m or 600m+. So since I have never been lucky, why bother?

 

i don't think this is the right attitude. there are many ways to make lots of money - most of which are actually non-grindy and very fun

[Sir_Squab]

I'm a lot like IHasChicken - money isn't a big concern of mine and it just so happens that the things I enjoy doing in Runescape are also good money (aside from dungeoneering). I'm constantly spending my money as I make it because I just don't have a real need for a large cashpile. As long as I can continue to solo TDs and slay, money just isn't an issue to me.

 

And I know what you mean, Muggi, about not getting excited over drops (well, most drops). Nowadays, a drop from most bosses will usually give me that "[bleep] YEAH!" moment, but it's just a moment; it's just more money to spend on more overloads or more logs for 99 firemaking, etc. The only drop I've had that literally felt like winning the lottery was my hexhunter. I still haven't gotten over that, lol. A solo divine from corp would be probably illicit a similar reaction.

 

Dying doesn't really bother me, either. If I lose a bunch of chaotics . . . oh well, time to dg. If I lose a barrows set or a zerker ring . . . oh well, time to go to TDs and have some fun while I'm making that money back (neither has happened to me, but just sayin').

 

Uh, now I feel like I'm rambling.

tl;dr I don't do anything I don't like in this game, and it just so happens that what I like to do makes me money.

 

Yet you're going for 99 firemaking. LOL

[IHasChicken]

I'm a lot like IHasChicken - money isn't a big concern of mine and it just so happens that the things I enjoy doing in Runescape are also good money (aside from dungeoneering). I'm constantly spending my money as I make it because I just don't have a real need for a large cashpile. As long as I can continue to solo TDs and slay, money just isn't an issue to me.

 

And I know what you mean, Muggi, about not getting excited over drops (well, most drops). Nowadays, a drop from most bosses will usually give me that "[bleep] YEAH!" moment, but it's just a moment; it's just more money to spend on more overloads or more logs for 99 firemaking, etc. The only drop I've had that literally felt like winning the lottery was my hexhunter. I still haven't gotten over that, lol. A solo divine from corp would be probably illicit a similar reaction.

 

Dying doesn't really bother me, either. If I lose a bunch of chaotics . . . oh well, time to dg. If I lose a barrows set or a zerker ring . . . oh well, time to go to TDs and have some fun while I'm making that money back (neither has happened to me, but just sayin').

 

Uh, now I feel like I'm rambling.

tl;dr I don't do anything I don't like in this game, and it just so happens that what I like to do makes me money.

 

Yet you're going for 99 firemaking. LOL

 

You can argue though, that even though he might not enjoy 99 fm, he will enjoy the benefit of longer lasting hand cannons, so he still derives enjoyment from it.

 

And considering he likes to td a lot and handcannon is very useful there for a non-steel titan setup, that seems feasible.

[Sir_Squab]

I'm a lot like IHasChicken - money isn't a big concern of mine and it just so happens that the things I enjoy doing in Runescape are also good money (aside from dungeoneering). I'm constantly spending my money as I make it because I just don't have a real need for a large cashpile. As long as I can continue to solo TDs and slay, money just isn't an issue to me.

 

And I know what you mean, Muggi, about not getting excited over drops (well, most drops). Nowadays, a drop from most bosses will usually give me that "[bleep] YEAH!" moment, but it's just a moment; it's just more money to spend on more overloads or more logs for 99 firemaking, etc. The only drop I've had that literally felt like winning the lottery was my hexhunter. I still haven't gotten over that, lol. A solo divine from corp would be probably illicit a similar reaction.

 

Dying doesn't really bother me, either. If I lose a bunch of chaotics . . . oh well, time to dg. If I lose a barrows set or a zerker ring . . . oh well, time to go to TDs and have some fun while I'm making that money back (neither has happened to me, but just sayin').

 

Uh, now I feel like I'm rambling.

tl;dr I don't do anything I don't like in this game, and it just so happens that what I like to do makes me money.

 

Yet you're going for 99 firemaking. LOL

 

You can argue though, that even though he might not enjoy 99 fm, he will enjoy the benefit of longer lasting hand cannons, so he still derives enjoyment from it.

 

And considering he likes to td a lot and handcannon is very useful there for a non-steel titan setup, that seems feasible.

 

So, you be saying that, given my assumption that he doesn't enjoy firemaking is correct (most likely is, but stranger things have happened) he's grinding it, i.e. doing something unenjoyable in order to do something enjoyable. If I could be bothered reading through the original post agian, I'd see something about that.

 

Ah well, such is the way of life it would seem. Quite ironic how people "work/grind" on games, aka do generally unenjoyable, monotonous activities just to achieve something in the game so they can "have fun."

 

I feel that I should point out that this sort of grinding is something I do a lot in video games. Quite a lot to be honest.

[Obtaurian]

I'm a lot like IHasChicken - money isn't a big concern of mine and it just so happens that the things I enjoy doing in Runescape are also good money (aside from dungeoneering). I'm constantly spending my money as I make it because I just don't have a real need for a large cashpile. As long as I can continue to solo TDs and slay, money just isn't an issue to me.

 

And I know what you mean, Muggi, about not getting excited over drops (well, most drops). Nowadays, a drop from most bosses will usually give me that "[bleep] YEAH!" moment, but it's just a moment; it's just more money to spend on more overloads or more logs for 99 firemaking, etc. The only drop I've had that literally felt like winning the lottery was my hexhunter. I still haven't gotten over that, lol. A solo divine from corp would be probably illicit a similar reaction.

 

Dying doesn't really bother me, either. If I lose a bunch of chaotics . . . oh well, time to dg. If I lose a barrows set or a zerker ring . . . oh well, time to go to TDs and have some fun while I'm making that money back (neither has happened to me, but just sayin').

 

Uh, now I feel like I'm rambling.

tl;dr I don't do anything I don't like in this game, and it just so happens that what I like to do makes me money.

 

Yet you're going for 99 firemaking. LOL

 

You can argue though, that even though he might not enjoy 99 fm, he will enjoy the benefit of longer lasting hand cannons, so he still derives enjoyment from it.

 

And considering he likes to td a lot and handcannon is very useful there for a non-steel titan setup, that seems feasible.

 

So, you be saying that, given my assumption that he doesn't enjoy firemaking is correct (most likely is, but stranger things have happened) he's grinding it, i.e. doing something unenjoyable in order to do something enjoyable. If I could be bothered reading through the original post agian, I'd see something about that.

 

Ah well, such is the way of life it would seem. Quite ironic how people "work/grind" on games, aka do generally unenjoyable, monotonous activities just to achieve something in the game so they can "have fun."

 

I feel that I should point out that this sort of grinding is something I do a lot in video games. Quite a lot to be honest.

 

Ah, but here's the thing about firemaking -- it's insanely fast and I get to play a ton of BA that I would be playing anyway (I love BA). It's one of three skills (firemaking, prayer, herblore) that I find boring to train, but are so fast and so helpful that I can suck up the time I spend doing it (which isn't much time at all). If agility suddenly became extremely useful for combat, I would not do it. I hate agility and it's slow. That's too major strikes against it.

 

I hope that makes sense.

[Sir_Squab]

Fair enough. BA is pretty fun as long as you get a good team :D

[hellbellz]

I have the same reaction and mindset toward Runescape since I stopped playing about two years now. The amount of money I have now is about 100M which I don't care about whatsoever. Three years ago I would've salivated over the thought of that RS cash. The desire to gain wealth and to increasingly gain the desire to build upon every block diminished over time for me. Runescape definitely can be an addiction which shouldn't even be debated anymore.

 

I remember seeing all of the accomplishments of the fire cape and all of that for you, Muggi, from years ago and was so wow'd by them, but now as I've grown older and matured, I've come to realize Runescape shouldn't be agonizing, debilitating, or stressful to a harmful level and should be played merely for fun.

[aspeeder]

Haven't read the responses, but my initial thoughts swung to relationships to people too: the more invested you are in someone the happier they can make you, but they also have a greater ability to harm you emotionally. That also goes with Buddhist theology you tied this idea too, they can't be in relationships either because of the bonds formed to this shadow world of materialism and suffering.

[Viv]

well i dont bosshunt but i do understand sometimes about money!

 

i mean thier were times that i had 30m and was happy and doing frost or somethign for money for 3-4m an hr would be 10% of my cash every hr

 

but if its like 1% or less of cash its just not fun....

 

tho i <3 spending on skills

 

slayer drops like whips/sols dont excite me its liek "o more money for pray pots/cballs/extremes or ovl..."

 

HEX was exciting

 

str was exciting til 100m exp then i started going at a slow pace..

[Randox]

For me, after nearly 7 years of not being clanned, I finally decided to try one out. It's a lot of fun, and in the space of a little over 4 months, I am an Event Co-Ordinator, Clan moderator, and offered a leader position (turned down for the time being, pending clan growth). My point is that I have excelled in a new environment, and made some new friends. The clan has also gotten me out of my shell so to speak, getting me to leave behind my life of just killing things I can handle with enhanced excal and a bunyip, and into the world of GWD and Corporeal Beast. The other EC is working with me so that we can both get 80 dunge, and chaotic weaponry, something I would never have undertaken alone.

 

So on that front, I am having the best time in the game I have had in probably the last couple years. I have a great circle of new friends (minus the the ones who bot, which the clan actively works to find and remove), I am succeding at new things, and yet there are problems.

 

In my older circle of friends, while I was always in the midrange of my friends list highscores, I was normally on top of just about everyone I talked to on a regular basis. The clan on the hand, has several very successful players, in terms of levels and wealth. It has somewhat detracted from my own accomplishments in a way. It's also inspired me to go after some of my goals, get a few more 99's and whatnot, which has also forced me into the position of needing far more money than I have or can quickly come up with.

 

I guess its true that you can never have enough (which becomes a problem if you ever have everything). For me getting into clans has highlighted to me that which I have yet to obtain, but also motivates me to pursue things.

[dynastyfan0]

I have quit several times, dropping every last thing in my bank. I have dropped hundreds of millions on the ground and into the partychest. I even sold my red phat on the g/e price controlled way below its values and dropped the coin on the ground. why?

Because I have always been aware of the nature of fun in games like runescape. You get fun from dreaming of what you want and working for it. When I get there, I have to start over to have fun again. Try getting a firecape when you already have one, then try getting one after a 3 month quit and your bank blows. Its way more fun doing the later.

 

I currently am recovering from my last rest, got about 125m in a month i think, and i am having a blast. I will inevitablly have to drop it all on the ground again, but I always have fun when I play.

[Blyaunte]

Did you know that a Person A, who makes $50k/yr, while his friends make $25k/yr, will be happier than Person B, who makes $100k/yr, while his friends make $200k/yr? You're constantly reminded that you're not the best on this game. There's always someone one step ahead of you. Jagex seems to be well aware of this fact, and has done a good job of keeping loyal customers because of it. Past a certain point, desire and envy seems to fuel RuneScape more than fun and entertainment.

 

Meh -- that's not Jagex's doing - that is simple consumerism and Jonesing ... :rolleyes:

[i_trollz_u]

I have quit several times, dropping every last thing in my bank. I have dropped hundreds of millions on the ground and into the partychest. I even sold my red phat on the g/e price controlled way below its values and dropped the coin on the ground. why?

Because I have always been aware of the nature of fun in games like runescape. You get fun from dreaming of what you want and working for it. When I get there, I have to start over to have fun again. Try getting a firecape when you already have one, then try getting one after a 3 month quit and your bank blows. Its way more fun doing the later.

 

I currently am recovering from my last rest, got about 125m in a month i think, and i am having a blast. I will inevitablly have to drop it all on the ground again, but I always have fun when I play.

 

I call [cabbage]. In no way is playing with a crappy bank fun. I don't see how the experience in the fight caves changes whether you have a decent bank or not, and it would only be more fun if you had great gear. Btw i'll take the 125M off you're hands anytime you want to have a little fun.