Intellectual Property

[FooK-A-Ji]

Look, its so obvious that the person in question's only reason to have it removed is to milk every last drop from this conflict as possible.

 

Somebody needs to grow up and get on with their life. I'm not naming names, just like OP isn't, maybe you can figure out who that "somebody" is now.

 

Speaking of morals. I find it morally disgusting that "somebody" wants their guide removed solely because they themselves got removed from the forums, for reasons obvious.

 

The horse is dead, attempting to revive it in the form of this thread is stupidity.

 

Move along now. I mean that in all senses of the sentence.

[curtis95112]

Look, its so obvious that the person in question's only reason to have it removed is to milk every last drop from this conflict as possible.

 

He's still the same person that put hours and hours into the guide. His reasons may not be very good, but that doesn't mean TIF has to reject his request on reasons just as bad.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

...Hasn't it always been the case of a fansite (or any site, for that matter - even RuneScape's forums) to claim the ownership of anything willingly posted (e.g. guides, tips, articles, etc) as their own IP? Why should that change now that the user has had a less-than-pleasant experience with the site's administration?

 

Admittedly I've submitted things for other websites with the full knowledge that they would become the property of the site that I submitted them to. For all I know, they don't even have to attribute it (but it's a civil/ethical thing to do anyway). But that's how it works. Reading the fine print is important, because it can avoid a lot of unnecessary stress and tension.

 

 

Don't mind me, I'm just stating my opinion. It's too late for me to bother elaborating further on it at the moment.

[Cowman_133]

Hi there,

 

As DarkDude already mentioned the guide really should have been removed and after further discussion, we've done exactly that. I'm embarrassed to have been part of the administration that originally struck down the motion to simply remove Bladewing's guide like he asked for through the proper channels.

 

To those confused about this thread: of COURSE TIF is in the legal clear. The issue is that they're being complete jackasses about using their legal leverage to screw over a user. They were asked politely multiple times to remove the guide and declined. What does that say about TIF? To me it says that they don't respect the people who submit information to them.

 

You're entirely correct in saying this and I'd like to apologize on behalf of the entire admin team for the inconvenienced caused by something that could have been much simpler than it ended up being. As a member of the Website Crew I personally appreciate user feedback and submissions sooo much. They keep the Crew running and looking for content to update because we can't notice all changes and errors by ourselves!

 

Cowman_133

Tip.It Administrator and Crew Leader

[FooK-A-Ji]

Look, its so obvious that the person in question's only reason to have it removed is to milk every last drop from this conflict as possible.

 

He's still the same person that put hours and hours into the guide. His reasons may not be very good, but that doesn't mean TIF has to reject his request on reasons just as bad.

 

And now, following the removal from the forums, it should be clear to everybody that said person did it for personal gain and internet glory. Seeing as said person can't stand having the guide on a forum where said person no longer is allowed access.

 

I see no reason to have the guide removed.

 

Edit: Although I now just read that it has been, my point still stands.

[Lose No Hope]

Look, its so obvious that the person in question's only reason to have it removed is to milk every last drop from this conflict as possible.

 

He's still the same person that put hours and hours into the guide. His reasons may not be very good, but that doesn't mean TIF has to reject his request on reasons just as bad.

 

And now, following the removal from the forums, it should be clear to everybody that said person did it for personal gain and internet glory. Seeing as said person can't stand having the guide on a forum where said person no longer is allowed access.

 

I see no reason to have the guide removed.

 

Edit: Although I now just read that it has been, my point still stands.

He can't update the guide at all. That should be a reason for it to be removed.

 

Also, it wasn't that one guide that is getting him "internet glory."

[Cowman_133]

Actually the reason for him being allowed to remove it shouldn't have to be anything more than "because I said so."

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

He can't update the guide at all. That should be a reason for it to be removed.

 

Speaking only for myself, I'm not sure I agree with this reasoning. If someone cannot update something, then someone else makes a derivative of it - someone that is active and can actually keep it up-to-date - and that essentially becomes the new guide. It happens all the time (surprisingly enough) with guides on other forums, more so with programs and programming projects.

 

Just because someone can't update it doesn't mean it should be removed. I just don't agree with that notion.

 

*slinks back to corner*

[Lose No Hope]

He can't update the guide at all. That should be a reason for it to be removed.

 

Speaking only for myself, I'm not sure I agree with this reasoning. If someone cannot update something, then someone else makes a derivative of it - someone that is active and can actually keep it up-to-date - and that essentially becomes the new guide. It happens all the time (surprisingly enough) with guides on other forums, more so with programs and programming projects.

 

Just because someone can't update it doesn't mean it should be removed. I just don't agree with that notion.

 

*slinks back to corner*

Except he didn't approve of his guide staying and didn't give permission for someone to make a copy of his work.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Except he didn't approve of his guide staying and didn't give permission for someone to make a copy of his work.

 

So this is the "sticky" issue here - what warrants permission? The Tip.it copyright policy is clearly and standardly laid out in these sorts of cases, and as such, once it is submitted to Tip.it, it effectively becomes theirs, and the onus is on Tip.it to grant the permission.

 

In all honestly, it seems to me that one would lose their rights to a work (e.g. guide, tip, etc) upon posting, per the agreement set forth by Tip.it, which I presume everyone has read.

 

That's the only point I'm arguing - in the legal sense, Tip.it has every right to do whatever they want with the work. Whether or not that's ethical or "right", I'm simply not here to debate that.

[Lose No Hope]

Except he didn't approve of his guide staying and didn't give permission for someone to make a copy of his work.

 

So this is the "sticky" issue here - what warrants permission? The Tip.it copyright policy is clearly and standardly laid out in these sorts of cases, and as such, once it is submitted to Tip.it, it effectively becomes theirs, and the onus is on Tip.it to grant the permission.

 

In all honestly, it seems to me that one would lose their rights to a work (e.g. guide, tip, etc) upon posting, per the agreement set forth by Tip.it, which I presume everyone has read.

 

That's the only point I'm arguing - in the legal sense, Tip.it has every right to do whatever they want with the work. Whether or not that's ethical or "right", I'm simply not here to debate that.

That's where we separate. I'm looking at the ethical side of this. Technically it was legal for them to keep it up, but it was wrong and disrespectful. It also didn't look very good for tip.it as a whole if the admin refuse to do something because they put their feelings in front of their responsibilities.

[green9090]

Hi there,

 

As DarkDude already mentioned the guide really should have been removed and after further discussion, we've done exactly that. I'm embarrassed to have been part of the administration that originally struck down the motion to simply remove Bladewing's guide like he asked for through the proper channels.

 

To those confused about this thread: of COURSE TIF is in the legal clear. The issue is that they're being complete jackasses about using their legal leverage to screw over a user. They were asked politely multiple times to remove the guide and declined. What does that say about TIF? To me it says that they don't respect the people who submit information to them.

 

You're entirely correct in saying this and I'd like to apologize on behalf of the entire admin team for the inconvenienced caused by something that could have been much simpler than it ended up being. As a member of the Website Crew I personally appreciate user feedback and submissions sooo much. They keep the Crew running and looking for content to update because we can't notice all changes and errors by ourselves!

 

Cowman_133

Tip.It Administrator and Crew Leader

Thank you so much. I've done a complete 180 from being shocked at the incompetence of the admin team this morning to being shocked at the amount of respect I feel for them, in light of this and other posts and the PMs received by Ancient and xpx. I'm glad this matter saw a resolution.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

That's where we separate. I'm looking at the ethical side of this. Technically it was legal for them to keep it up, but it was wrong and disrespectful. It also didn't look very good for tip.it as a whole if the admin refuse to do something because they put their feelings in front of their responsibilities.

 

As an aside, the main point of the thread is to debate the feelings on IP. I have made my stance clear on that, in all regards. [i can take this as an "agree to disagree".] Whether or not it's ethical or "right" or disrespectful is a matter of opinion and is subject to bias, more times than not.

 

I found myself getting into the nuances of "responsibilities", but I fear that'd bring the thread off-track...

[curtis95112]

Thank you so much. I've done a complete 180 from being shocked at the incompetence of the admin team this morning to being shocked at the amount of respect I feel for them, in light of this and other posts and the PMs received by Ancient and xpx. I'm glad this matter saw a resolution.

 

What were the contents of the PMs? Or is it too sensitive to be made public?

[green9090]

Essentially letting them know their bans are under review and that there are some changes afoot in TIF. More of what we're seeing everywhere- admins admitting they made mistakes.

[curtis95112]

Essentially letting them know their bans are under review and that there are some changes afoot in TIF. More of what we're seeing everywhere- admins admitting they made mistakes.

 

Very good to hear. Seems the admins are handling this well now.

[DarkDude]

Yes, it's actually possible to do things now that the forums aren't being constantly spammed. Nothing has changed about what we do. We were just too busy having to deal with all the crap from last night that we couldn't actually come to any sort of resolution.

 

Spending over four hours last night having to clean up a mess and babysit a situation which I was not directly involved in is not fun. None of the moderation decisions in this whole thing were down to me, I've admitted I didn't agree with all the bans for the individual posts. I said I thought the guide should have probably been removed. I said we weren't blameless. Yet I was completely lynched, those parts of my posts were ignored, I was misquoted. I was actually the one who was most behind the changes, I tried to find a solution while bickering was going on. I stayed out of the moderation with regards to bans and fall out over bladewing's ban until last night when that thread got out of hand. Since then I've answered every query regarding it, explained everything I can.

 

This whole situation could have been avoided if the user involved didn't have to resolve to spamming and trolling to try and get their point across. They're the ones who have delayed any action being taken. So yeah, these things that are happening now could have happened a lot earlier if we didn't have to deal with all the crap over the past 12 hours or so.

[green9090]

Good to see some admins still feel that users started this. Nothing to do with the bogus bans and hidden posts, right? :D

[essiw]

I would like to thank all the mods/admins and other players that have made this discussion possible without flaming and if the persons who did get banned get a second chance (not sure if I got this correctly that that is a possibilty) I wish them goodluck and advice them to chose their words wisely in the future and I hope they will have fun again at plating on tipit.

I hope I didn't post this on the wrong place, just wanting to say that I think it is going the good way right now.

[DarkDude]

Good to see some admins still feel that users started this. Nothing to do with the bogus bans and hidden posts, right? :D

 

The "bogus" bans and such started AFTER the spam/bad posts happened. Yes the bans probably shouldn't have happened but that doesn't mean the users are entirely blameless. The situation was escalating before any bans were put into place, the bans didn't help at all and definitely fuelled the problem and no one is claiming that they didn't. The point I was making is that the resolutions you're seeing this morning would have occurred last night if it had not been for the spam and all the drama that was caused by several users continually posting troll topics, coming in on proxied accounts, posting porn and the like. Yes the underlying cause has equal blame on the users and the staff, but that's not what I was saying. I was one of the first to admit we had screwed up (although not using those exact words). I have not been entirely happy with some moderator decisions here recently (with regards to some users still being around etc.) and if I was involved in the discussion then none of those bans would have taken place and the guide would probably have been removed. The problem was after the bans did take place we were swamped with people spamming, meaning we didn't have time to actually deal with those problems and rectify them, instead having to deal with the things I've already mentioned.

 

I apologise for anything I have said which could have taken in a negative way. As I said I was really hopeful of a solution to this with regards to the problems with the forums and discussions on it and had purposely avoided the "drama" as much as possible. Some of posts last night may have bit a bit harsh, although I still stand by the "content" of the posts in them, and I apologise for that. It was just increased frustration that the situation had got to the level it had done with not a lot being done to stop it.

[Ginger_Warrior]

...Hasn't it always been the case of a fansite (or any site, for that matter - even RuneScape's forums) to claim the ownership of anything willingly posted (e.g. guides, tips, articles, etc) as their own IP? Why should that change now that the user has had a less-than-pleasant experience with the site's administration?

Precisely. Those throwing stones in glasshouses here should remember there are worse examples out there.

 

I'm no legal expert but since Tip.It doesn't sell its content for profit, why doesn't Tip.It change its policy to mean that all submissions to the forum and the website are made irrevocably under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 license and that a URL to the original post is sufficient attribution under a CC license?

[pulli23]

He can't update the guide at all. That should be a reason for it to be removed.

 

Speaking only for myself, I'm not sure I agree with this reasoning. If someone cannot update something, then someone else makes a derivative of it - someone that is active and can actually keep it up-to-date - and that essentially becomes the new guide. It happens all the time (surprisingly enough) with guides on other forums, more so with programs and programming projects.

 

Just because someone can't update it doesn't mean it should be removed. I just don't agree with that notion.

 

*slinks back to corner*

Except he didn't approve of his guide staying and didn't give permission for someone to make a copy of his work.

As the tip.it guidelines explicitelly say, you DO give tip.it ownership to copy. I think it's time you do a little research in the matter and then come back. There are so many statements here which disgust me because they show an utter lack of knowlenge about how IP works.

 

Also not giving permession to make copies, or increase the knowlenge of the guide is morally wrong. As it prefents innovation for the group in spite of personal gain.

[Laikrob]

Would those of you who are against Tip.It owning your forum content also be okay with it if former Crew members or other members of Tip.It staff or similar didn't want their work used by Tip.It anymore? After all, they've most likely spent more time and have more content (all kinds of guides, databases, Tip.It Times or Clan Chronicle articles, forum rules etc) on the site and forums than others.

 

Just would like to know if there are any limits to it, in your eyes.

[curtis95112]

He can't update the guide at all. That should be a reason for it to be removed.

 

Speaking only for myself, I'm not sure I agree with this reasoning. If someone cannot update something, then someone else makes a derivative of it - someone that is active and can actually keep it up-to-date - and that essentially becomes the new guide. It happens all the time (surprisingly enough) with guides on other forums, more so with programs and programming projects.

 

Just because someone can't update it doesn't mean it should be removed. I just don't agree with that notion.

 

*slinks back to corner*

Except he didn't approve of his guide staying and didn't give permission for someone to make a copy of his work.

As the tip.it guidelines explicitelly say, you DO give tip.it ownership to copy. I think it's time you do a little research in the matter and then come back. There are so many statements here which disgust me because they show an utter lack of knowlenge about how IP works.

 

Also not giving permession to make copies, or increase the knowlenge of the guide is morally wrong. As it prefents innovation for the group in spite of personal gain.

 

Everyone here knows that tip it has the legal rights to the guides. We aren't discussing that. We're talking about ethics. You claim not giving permission is wrong. Would you also claim current IP laws are unethical? Probably not considering your post. Why isn't it unethical? Why is it beneficial to the community as a whole to let the author distribute his work at his own discretion? I believe the reasoning behind the answer will also apply to this particular case.

[Ginger_Warrior]

He can't update the guide at all. That should be a reason for it to be removed.

 

Speaking only for myself, I'm not sure I agree with this reasoning. If someone cannot update something, then someone else makes a derivative of it - someone that is active and can actually keep it up-to-date - and that essentially becomes the new guide. It happens all the time (surprisingly enough) with guides on other forums, more so with programs and programming projects.

 

Just because someone can't update it doesn't mean it should be removed. I just don't agree with that notion.

 

*slinks back to corner*

Except he didn't approve of his guide staying and didn't give permission for someone to make a copy of his work.

As the tip.it guidelines explicitelly say, you DO give tip.it ownership to copy. I think it's time you do a little research in the matter and then come back. There are so many statements here which disgust me because they show an utter lack of knowlenge about how IP works.

 

Also not giving permession to make copies, or increase the knowlenge of the guide is morally wrong. As it prefents innovation for the group in spite of personal gain.

 

Everyone here knows that tip it has the legal rights to the guides. We aren't discussing that. We're talking about ethics. You claim not giving permission is wrong. Would you also claim current IP laws are unethical? Probably not considering your post. Why isn't it unethical? Why is it beneficial to the community as a whole to let the author distribute his work at his own discretion? I believe the reasoning behind the answer will also apply to this particular case.

So it's beneficial to the community to have its content removed in the interests of protecting IP rights that, actually, the original poster hasn't really got.

 

Gotcha.

 

Tell you what, I worked on the Bestiary for over a year. Let's say hypothetically speaking, I want all my content removed from the website now. This process would take many, many Crew hours to fully resolve in such a way that I can't turn round later and say 'You missed a bit'. But hey, I have IP rights so what's wrong with me asking that? Wasting other volunteers' time to selfishly protect my distribution rights is beneficial to the wider community, yeah?