Intellectual Property

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Everyone here knows that tip it has the legal rights to the guides. We aren't discussing that. We're talking about ethics. You claim not giving permission is wrong. Would you also claim current IP laws are unethical? Probably not considering your post. Why isn't it unethical? Why is it beneficial to the community as a whole to let the author distribute his work at his own discretion? I believe the reasoning behind the answer will also apply to this particular case.

 

You're the only one discussing the ethics of the matter, from what I can see. Unless I've misconstrued the first post, the debate is strictly a matter of who holds the IP rights. In that vein, I've made my stance on the matter clear.

 

One must always read the copyright provisions of any site (anywhere) and see which side of the line they stand on. No exceptions.

[Lose No Hope]

He can't update the guide at all. That should be a reason for it to be removed.

 

Speaking only for myself, I'm not sure I agree with this reasoning. If someone cannot update something, then someone else makes a derivative of it - someone that is active and can actually keep it up-to-date - and that essentially becomes the new guide. It happens all the time (surprisingly enough) with guides on other forums, more so with programs and programming projects.

 

Just because someone can't update it doesn't mean it should be removed. I just don't agree with that notion.

 

*slinks back to corner*

Except he didn't approve of his guide staying and didn't give permission for someone to make a copy of his work.

As the tip.it guidelines explicitelly say, you DO give tip.it ownership to copy. I think it's time you do a little research in the matter and then come back. There are so many statements here which disgust me because they show an utter lack of knowlenge about how IP works.

 

Also not giving permession to make copies, or increase the knowlenge of the guide is morally wrong. As it prefents innovation for the group in spite of personal gain.

If you had read my earlier posts, I was talking about ethics, not legal rights. I already admitted that Tip.it had the legal right to keep the guide.

[Starr]

I am very new to the community. I don't know anyone here. So I guess you could say my opinion isn't swayed one way or the other. What I'm seeing is a lot of whining about something out of your control. Why on earth would you take the time to write a guide for you to share with other people, and then get mad and want to take it away from those people? That just seems a bit childish to me. The people using the guide are not the people who angered you correct?

 

I understand that you guys think it's "morally" wrong for them to keep it up, but isn't it also wrong to take it away from people who could benefit from it? Like I said I don't know the people who were banned or why they were banned, and I don't know the people who work for Tip.It, but I do know that if I were unhappy with the forum or the people running it I would just leave. I wouldn't waste my time arguing with them.

 

If I were ever able to write a guide I would have no problem sharing it. I wouldn't think of it as just mine anymore I would think of it as everyones, people who read it, use it, and help maintain it.

 

But that's just my opion. I don't think people should steal things from others, but honestly when you use things like forums you're pretty much putting it out there for everyone anyway.

[pulli23]

Also not giving permession to make copies' date=' or increase the knowlenge of the guide is morally wrong. As it prefents innovation for the group in spite of personal gain.[/quote']

[Laikrob]

Both Ginger_Warrior and myself asked a question direkted to those who believes that it's ethically wrong for Tip.It to have the IP of content that forum members have written.

 

Would you also be okay with it if former Crew members or other members of Tip.It staff or similar didn't want their work used by Tip.It anymore? After all, they've most likely spent more time and have more content (all kinds of guides, databases, Tip.It Times or Clan Chronicle articles, forum rules etc) on the site and forums than others. In the end this would mean a huge extra workload for the existing staff, and less time to spend on seemingly more important and up to date projects.

[ReapMe]

Smh at this thread, banned person wants his guide off even though it still has helpful info just to spite the site.

The mods/admins don't want to give him the satisfaction. Legal affairs and whatnot, too much drama over a game fan site.

[Obtaurian]

Both Ginger_Warrior and myself asked a question direkted to those who believes that it's ethically wrong for Tip.It to have the IP of content that forum members have written.

 

Would you also be okay with it if former Crew members or other members of Tip.It staff or similar didn't want their work used by Tip.It anymore? After all, they've most likely spent more time and have more content (all kinds of guides, databases, Tip.It Times or Clan Chronicle articles, forum rules etc) on the site and forums than others. In the end this would mean a huge extra workload for the existing staff, and less time to spend on seemingly more important and up to date projects.

 

Be realistic - this is a single guide; there would be no trolling trawling of databases and such. It would literally take all of three clicks to delete it and everyone could be on their merry way. I'd advise you to not compare a realistic request to an unrealistic one and use the theoretical outcome of the unrealistic one as a crux for your argument.

 

Either way, I can't see this incident happening again so long as Cowman remains admin/head of crew.

[Ginger_Warrior]

She didn't ask for clarification of what is real, or advice on how to argue. She asked if you would be okay with it, which you appear not to have answered.

[Obtaurian]

She didn't ask for clarification of what is real, or advice on how to argue. She asked if you would be okay with it, which you appear not to have answered.

 

That would depend on how realistic the request is, as I've implied. My apologies if that was unclear.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Well, the reality is I and every other ex-Crewbie could PM Cowman right now asking for our content to be removed not only from the main site, but that which is ours from the AoW as well, and we would have exactly the same legal rights as bladewing, ie none. I'm not going to request that because I'm proud of the contribution I've made to the Tip.It community through my work as a Crewbie. You guys did request it however. We're just asking how you think this is beneficial to the community that you're claiming you're not trying to hurt, or the current unpaid staff members that are having to deal with this against the backdrop of their own personal lives and stresses.

[Obtaurian]

Okay, maybe I need to further clarify what I meant in my first reply: the amount of work required to comply with such a request must be taken into account. In the case of an AOW guide, the amount of work is trivial; in the case of a crew member asking for multitudes of tiny little data entries and various guides to be removed, the amount of work is staggering.

 

I have other things to say, but I really can't be bothered to type up an essay when this problem has already been resolved. This isn't an issue of legal rights - it's an issue of ethics. Finally, your last comment just shows me that you really don't understand the situation, and I'm in no mood to explain something that can be found in multiple places around these forums and Grimy's forums.

[obfuscator]

So if it's simple and easy to do, we should do it? What if someone asks all their posts be deleted? That can be done in one second, should we do that?

[Ginger_Warrior]

How does the amount of time required make any difference? Tip.It is engaging in so-called information theft either way, that's the central issue.

 

In your opinion, it's not OK for me to ask for my content to be removed, but it is OK for bladewing to have his content removed, even though we'd both be claiming that Tip.It were engaging in information theft and we'd both have the same rights. I know I'm not the only one here noticing your selective application of ethics, and your retrospect justification of this as anything other than a spiteful parting shot that actually has nothing to do whatsoever with supposed 'information theft'.

 

OK, let's try another question. When I left the Crew it wasn't on good terms with the admins, believe me. You don't need to know why, but I know people who can testify to that. However, if I (and others) have managed to leave the reconciliation table without making petulant requests for content that serves ordinary users to be removed, why can't bladewing?

[Obtaurian]

Bladewing, unlike you, was not crew. Pretty simple. As far as I'm concerned, you sold your soul to Tip.it whereas Bladewing was just a poster.

 

Again, you don't know the whole story and I don't expect you to understand. This discussion is humorously pointless, again, considering that Cowman seems to disagree with you.

 

EDIT: Oh, and Bladewing's guide is still available to anyone who wants to use it. It's just not on Tip.it.

[pulli23]

Bladewing, unlike you, was not crew. Pretty simple. As far as I'm concerned, you sold your soul to Tip.it whereas Bladewing was just a poster.

 

Again, you don't know the whole story and I don't expect you to understand. This discussion is humorously pointless, again, considering that Cowman seems to disagree with you.

 

EDIT: Oh, and Bladewing's guide is still available to anyone who wants to use it. It's just not on Tip.it.

As I said: once you post something to the general public, it don't belong to you anymore..

 

If people worked that way there wouldn't ever be innovation and no one could actually build upon discoveries made by someone else without fear of having to stop.

 

Information never ever should BELONG to a person.

[Danqazmlp]

I think people get that you migrated to another forum, you do not need to keep mentioning it in an attempt to. (that is as a user not staff, it has been niggling me the pst few days)

 

 

On your final comment (before the edit), just because one administrator has one view does not mean that people cannot disagree. Just like you have been arguing it should be removed, other users think it should have been kept open. Would it not be inconsistent of us to not allow discussion of it now?

[All_Is_Great]

TIF had every right to leave Bladewing's guide up.

 

I posted this on the other thread, but I'll post it here again.

 

I think TIF should've just taken the high road. Clearly, the request to remove the guide was done out of spite, and the mods should've just let him be happy. Such a small issue, yet you guys are making this enormous deal out of it. I don't know what that says about you guys.... All those spam threads, too, like "guide to getting your guide deleted", "note to all guide writers". I thought you guys were better.

[Golvellius]

Just take them down.

Leaving it up says that we need these clowns.

We don't.

It's an honor to have your guide featured on an internet fansite.

Especially, one of the premier platinum ones.

But, whatever if they think they are special, then let them go somewhere else and be special with guides which don't look so special.

[Vulxai]

Just take them down.

Leaving it up says that we need these clowns.

We don't.

It's an honor to have your guide featured on an internet fansite.

Especially, one of the premier platinum ones.

But, whatever if they think they are special, then let them go somewhere else and be special with guides which don't look so special.

 

It's already been taken down.

[Obtaurian]

>out of spite.

 

Blatant misunderstanding of the situation. Not that it matters anymore now that we're getting along and everything's been worked out.

[das1330]

Just take them down.

Leaving it up says that we need these clowns.

We don't.

It's an honor to have your guide featured on an internet fansite.

Especially, one of the premier platinum ones.

But, whatever if they think they are special, then let them go somewhere else and be special with guides which don't look so special.

 

It's already been taken down.

 

For the future however tipit should have a clear, unambiguous policy should such an event occur again, and that policy should be against removing any such guides. Removal is neither legally or ethically required, and the staff should not bend to meet the demands of a (banned) disgruntled poster.

[Youmu]

For the future however tipit should have a clear, unambiguous policy should such an event occur again, and that policy should be against removing any such guides. Removal is neither legally or ethically required, and the staff should not bend to meet the demands of a (banned) disgruntled poster.

I disagree. If the author wishes to have his guide removed from the site because of any reason (like Cowman said, it can be as simple as "Because I said so".), it should be removed.

 

This is exactly the same case as the situation in the top 250 f2p hiscore list. If you don't want to be on the list, you can ask yourself to be removed.

 

Shouldn't be too big of a deal.

[Laikrob]

So if I wanted my Clan Chronicle articles and all the Clan rules and info posts removed, that should be done? It would not take too much time.

 

What about all my posts? It requires very few clicks.

 

And no, I don't want this, but I think that those pushing for removing said guide are doing it for all the wrong reasons.

There is a difference between wanting to be associated with a clan highscore list that others set up, and taking responsibility for something you posted by simply doing nothing and leaving it up.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

For the future however tipit should have a clear, unambiguous policy should such an event occur again, and that policy should be against removing any such guides. Removal is neither legally or ethically required, and the staff should not bend to meet the demands of a (banned) disgruntled poster.

I disagree. If the author wishes to have his guide removed from the site because of any reason (like Cowman said, it can be as simple as "Because I said so".), it should be removed.

 

This is exactly the same case as the situation in the top 250 f2p hiscore list. If you don't want to be on the list, you can ask yourself to be removed.

 

Shouldn't be too big of a deal.

 

I disagree. There is a difference to a guide (something that is authored using a person's knowledge and experience) and information one could look up in another database.

 

The author, at this point, has forfeit their rights to the guide (per the Copyright Policy - which surprisingly few people are aware of still), and shouldn't be privy to make a claim to remove their work. The fundamental thing is that they don't have the right to anymore. Whether or not it's ethical to honor such a request - still dodging the debate, but I will say this - is it even ethical to ask for such a thing in the first place, if they know they don't have the right to?

 

Here's a for-instance. On the RSOF, I maintain the Linux Technical guide. The RuneScape site also comes with a clause that states that what's submitted to their forum/site belongs to Jagex ("By posting chat or other materials on any Jagex Product, you grant us a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, royalty free, worldwide license to use and/or modify such materials on any Jagex Product as we see fit.").

 

 

I wrote that guide with the full knowledge and intent that it would be out there and belong to Jagex, even though it was my hard work and endeavors that went into it. Now, recently, I've not been feeling very optimistic about Jagex or its direction, and in my disappointment and frustration, I should be able to demand that the guide be removed, right?

 

 

Well, no - for two reasons.

 

 

1) The guide was written with the intent to help others - which is the whole point of writing anything, in my mind. Any guide that's out there just stroking someone's ego should be shot down in flames.

 

 

2) The guide is no longer my IP - I can't make a claim to something I don't own, after all.

 

 

How this applies to this situation is pretty straightforward - even though the matter is now said and done, and I disagree with the end result, one cannot make a claim to something they do not own. This is how IP rights work in the real world, and this is where the line between ethics and law is the most clear. If the user didn't want Tip.it to have the guide, then they shouldn't have put it up. Or better yet, they would have familiarized themselves with the ToS of the site they were posting it to, to avoid potential fallout.

 

 

---

 

 

To the hypothetical questions, in essence what is being argued is a slippery slope. If Tip.it allows it for one person for whatever reason, why not allow it for the next? And the next? One could see how this could get out of hand very rapidly, especially considering the volume of work the staff and ex-staff have put into whatever guides they've authored.

[Lose No Hope]

[hide]

For the future however tipit should have a clear, unambiguous policy should such an event occur again, and that policy should be against removing any such guides. Removal is neither legally or ethically required, and the staff should not bend to meet the demands of a (banned) disgruntled poster.

I disagree. If the author wishes to have his guide removed from the site because of any reason (like Cowman said, it can be as simple as "Because I said so".), it should be removed.

 

This is exactly the same case as the situation in the top 250 f2p hiscore list. If you don't want to be on the list, you can ask yourself to be removed.

 

Shouldn't be too big of a deal.

[/hide]

 

I disagree. There is a difference to a guide (something that is authored using a person's knowledge and experience) and information one could look up in another database.

 

The author, at this point, has forfeit their rights to the guide (per the Copyright Policy - which surprisingly few people are aware of still), and shouldn't be privy to make a claim to remove their work. The fundamental thing is that they don't have the right to anymore. Whether or not it's ethical to honor such a request - still dodging the debate, but I will say this - is it even ethical to ask for such a thing in the first place, if they know they don't have the right to?

 

Here's a for-instance. On the RSOF, I maintain the Linux Technical guide. The RuneScape site also comes with a clause that states that what's submitted to their forum/site belongs to Jagex ("By posting chat or other materials on any Jagex Product, you grant us a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, royalty free, worldwide license to use and/or modify such materials on any Jagex Product as we see fit.").

 

 

I wrote that guide with the full knowledge and intent that it would be out there and belong to Jagex, even though it was my hard work and endeavors that went into it. Now, recently, I've not been feeling very optimistic about Jagex or its direction, and in my disappointment and frustration, I should be able to demand that the guide be removed, right?

 

 

Well, no - for two reasons.

 

 

1) The guide was written with the intent to help others - which is the whole point of writing anything, in my mind. Any guide that's out there just stroking someone's ego should be shot down in flames.

 

 

2) The guide is no longer my IP - I can't make a claim to something I don't own, after all.

 

 

How this applies to this situation is pretty straightforward - even though the matter is now said and done, and I disagree with the end result, one cannot make a claim to something they do not own. This is how IP rights work in the real world, and this is where the line between ethics and law is the most clear. If the user didn't want Tip.it to have the guide, then they shouldn't have put it up. Or better yet, they would have familiarized themselves with the ToS of the site they were posting it to, to avoid potential fallout.

 

 

---

 

 

To the hypothetical questions, in essence what is being argued is a slippery slope. If Tip.it allows it for one person for whatever reason, why not allow it for the next? And the next? One could see how this could get out of hand very rapidly, especially considering the volume of work the staff and ex-staff have put into whatever guides they've authored.

Tip.It already locks/removes threads at the request of the user, so why should it be any different?

 

He wanted his guide removed because he felt the owners of the site were unfair by banning him and didn't think his work was suited to stay there. He wasn't getting rid of the information, he was simply moving it to a new site where he could continue to help others and keep his guide updated.