"Loafing" in Minigames

[joke_slayer]

I'd say you're doing the right thing, you're getting the reward for minimal effort. Jagex brought this upon the game by giving boring mini-games good rewards (eg. MA) and having the completionist's cape require months' worth of CW games.

Thank you, I appreciate it. I was a little worried that no one seemed to understand why I do it. This is Tip.It, after all, and so I was expecting a more balanced response, I suppose you could say. I feel that any significantly high-level player who plans to someday earn the Completionist Cape (t) would realise how crazy completing 5k games actually is, and how it's totally unrealistic to expect anyone to play that many games "legitimately" while trying to meet all of the other requirements at the same time - without burning out and quiting. Whew. :blink:

 

I'd like to think I'm a reasonably high level player (access to max cape), and once I finish exams and get members back I'd like to slowly start working towards completionist cape (t), because I play this game for fun, and actually enjoy doing most of the stuff it requires, and that includes castle wars, and I intend to play the castle wars games I need legitimately.

 

When I set myself big goals on rs I try to make it so that I will be having fun doing most it, and making sure it only includes a small amount of of stuff I don't really like (25 chimp ices not going to be fun, but that can get done in like a day)

since like 90% of the requirement for the trim is castle wars, there is no reason to go for it if you don't enjoy castle wars

if you play the 5k games because you actually enjoy it, or playing in a way that makes it fun (such as camping somewhere and killing noobs if thats what you like), and don't go all out trying to get the cape asap, and alternate between the different things (say every 50 games go do a run at BA or something), you won't burn out and quit, simple as that

[Blutters]

"If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem!"

I usually laugh at that sentiment but there sometimes are situations to which it applies.

 

If such behavior persists, then an activity bar may be made, dampening the overall freedom one has in Castle Wars in particular. A major mechanic is being able to guard locations, which would be severely affected by an activity bar.

Honestly, though, in Castle Wars in particular, there are usually very few players that make any difference to the outcome of the game. An AFK 120+ is about as useless as one of those level 70- maging or ranging off the castle wall.

You may have 7-10 flagrunners/stunners/barragers on each team who do all the work because they honestly enjoy the game. Others who are active are likely just PKing or guarding certain areas.

 

It is akin to botting really, in the sense that you, the person behind the computer, aren't doing anything for a gain. The difference, and what makes it "worse" is that the account is doing absolutely nothing, whereas an account being controlled by a bot would still do contribute in at least some way, although I'm not entirely sure what a bot for the activity in question would do anyway.

 

_______

An aside...

[spoiler=If this becomes a debate about ethics...]

Unfortunately, any fair argument to liken moralities, or rather, human nature that applies to people - even people playing RuneScape - will be exaggerated upon past the point of hilarity and be unfairly reduced to a smouldering pile of [cabbage] by a certain team on these forums.

I'd like to coin the phrase trollganging - IE, Group has members A, B, C, D, usually posting in that order.

A posts in a way just barely within the rules, doing his best to show an aggressive interpretation so that the OP may be "dismissable" as containing one or more fallacies, and therefore, "attackable" without reprimand.

B posts directly agreeing with A, making all manner of flames and further exaggerating with the hope that, since the OP has been "villified", no moderator intervention will occur.

A persists, twisting whatever posts that possibly agree with him, continuing to counter any further repsonses from OP with ever-degrading, and usually, pseudo-debate, resorting to pettier and pettier arguments.

C posts basically the same thing that A originally posted, but in different words and much later to immitate some sort of "unguided" support.

A, B, and possibly C will persist, even if OP is gone, attacking whatever is interpretted as opposition to them.

D may post as a response to C, fully-flaming OP, as a sort of evolved form of B.

Thread has been reduced into flamefest and any valid points covered under layer after layer of true trolling.

Further exaggeration may flow into other similar topics and be made into inside jokes by trollganging team.

 

Just a warning kind of thing, seen it happen before, lol. It's not happening yet and hopefully won't.

[Carl]

Read: The Little Red Hen

The moral of the story is that those who show no will to contribute to an end product do not deserve to enjoy the end product, or "if a man does not work, let him not eat."

 

I don't think that applies to runescape.

 

Sorry, but it does, entirely. That post and Kaida23's post are perfect analogies of what's going on here. It's taking something on RS and applying the same mindset as if it were real life, which is exactly the debate. There's no point in shooting it down just because it's a game. That person playing Castle Wars to win is investing their 20 minutes (Or is it 25?) of hard work to try and earn the win to secure tickets to reap the rewards. You, and many like you choose not to earn it but expect the finished product anyway and laugh at people who oppose you. The smug attitude you've given off is enough to portray that perfectly when you say how others around you speak of your activities in these games.

 

Not only is it visible in Castle Wars, but in Pest Control it's much the same case that a large group of people will take a loss due to the ignorance and laziness of others who secure the 50 points necessary and laze about watching T.V. for the rest of it. Why the [bleep] are you playing a game if you don't actually enjoy it? How [bleep]ing stupid is that? Stop trying to benefit of others...It's just like people who choose not to seek work but claim benefits from the government; granted, on a much, much lesser scale, barely comparable but the same idea still applies.

 

Some of the attitudes of people playing (Are they even "playing" it anymore?) nowadays I just despise.

[Crossed_Body]

If you join a team activity, and then proceed to do nothing at all to help the team, you're an [wagon]. Can't get simpler than that.

[Dietrich]

[hide=Reply to Kaida23]

No. This is just wrong. All you're doing is taking advantage of the hard work of the people around you. Why should you be rewarded for that?

 

A pose a question to you: if you and a co-worker (assuming you're old enough to have a job) were given a project, and you did all the work while he played games on his computer, would you want him to receive the same rewards, or any rewards, from that project as you? How long do you think that kind of person would last with that, or any, company?

 

I pose another question: what will you do when everyone around you in Castle Wars has the same attitude as you, and they all just stand around and do nothing? Somebody has to put in the work, and it's obvious you simply want benefits for no work.

 

I hate the overreaching sense of entitlement people have today. "Oh, this is too hard to do properly, but I want to get a reward out of it that I don't deserve so I'm going to lie/cheat/steal my way to it an then I can show everyone how good I am at life."

 

Yes it's hard, it's bloody well supposed to be! That's what makes it an achievement!

To your first question:

That's not at all a fair comparison, and I'm having trouble telling whether you're serious about it or just chose to use a very poor analogy. Not actively participating in an online game of capture-the-flag is nothing like slacking off on a real-life work project and letting your co-workers cover for you. There's no real comparison to be made here between recreation and work obligations IRL.

Of course it's a fair comparison, there's no difference between you sitting there in a game and getting benefits and a co-working sitting there and getting benefits. It's the mindset that that a goal is long and tedious and you shouldn't have to put in the work to get it.

[/hide]

Really now, you see absolutely no difference between choosing not to participate in a game of capture-the-flag on the internet and skipping out on real-life obligations? Those two are completely equal in your mind? I don't know what to say if that's what you actually think, rather than what you're saying just to prove some kind of point. It's absurd. :unsure:

 

And by the way, I'm not sure about you, but I'd likely be fired if I were to put off all of my work on someone else; that wouldn't be "beneficial" to me in the slightest. Not to mention that whether or not I actively play each CW game, I still have to dedicate the same amount of ingame time being at Castle Wars. It's just a matter of how much energy and concentration I apply during that amount of time. Do you always choose to do things the hard way (out of some sense of "legitimacy" that isn't necessarily shared by others), even if there's a much easier and more convenient method available? If not, then you should see why I choose to loaf in some of my games.

 

 

[hide=Reply to Kaida23]

I play Runescape during my free time to enjoy myself and accomplish goals I've set. I sometimes have to grind through certain parts of this game which I don't particularly enjoy in order to attain something I do want or to reach one of my goals, and when this happens, I try to go about it efficiently so that I don't have to waste any more time on it than is necessary. You've probably done the same in the past, as well.

Now you're casting aspersions on my character (the very thing you complain about below, I might add). Yes, I do as much as I can in RS efficiently. That doesn't mean that I sit there and leech of the hard work of other people.

[/hide]

...Aspersions, what? Nowhere in my post did I write anything which reflects negatively on your character - by any stretch of the imagination. Let's see what I did write.

I sometimes have to grind through certain parts of this game which I don't particularly enjoy in order to attain something I do want or to reach one of my goals, and when this happens, I try to go about it efficiently so that I don't have to waste any more time on it than is necessary. You've probably done the same in the past, as well.

This is the only assumption I've made about you, and it is in no way an insult. I was assuming that, at some point in your life, you've had to do something you didn't much care for in order to meet a goal, and you likely did it as quickly as possible so that you wouldn't waste time doing something that you didn't like. Example: Have you ever cleaned your home? If you're like most people, you probably don't particularly enjoy cleaning, but having to live in a dirty/messy home isn't pleasant either. I don't enjoy cleaning either, but I consider it necessary, so I set aside "cleaning days" on occasion and try to get everything done at once.

 

Now, I try to make a point of not personally attacking my opponents in a debate, so I'd appreciate it if you would extend me the same courtesy. So far you've tried to insult me by saying that I'm overly entitled despite not knowing me at all, and then deflected when I calling you out on it and tried to paint me as some form of hypocrite. That kind of behaviour is not exactly conducive to a civil debate, yeah?

 

 

[hide=Reply to Kaida23]

To your second question:

Again, I can't tell if you're serious. I don't care about winning or losing, so that would suit me just fine. However, it would never happen since many players who participate in CW do so because they enjoy actually playing it. Even if it did somehow magically happen, Jagex would intervene and implement an activity bar, I'm sure.

It's not about winning or losing, it's about mindset; "As long as someone else does the work, I don't have to"

[/hide]

You're absolutely right; it isn't about winning or losing. Because of the way Castle Wars is played, I do not need to leech off of the work of anyone else. If everyone were to loaf in Castle Wars, that would serve me just as well (if not better). Unlike with the Fishing Trawler, inactivity in CW does not cause for everyone involved in the minigame to fail. Even if no one does anything, the CW games continue to go on. Remember, tickets mean nothing to me; I simply join each game and wait for the 20-minute timer to expire. What other people do during that time is in no way relevant to me, so no, I am not depending on others to "do the work for me".

 

 

[hide=Reply to Kaida23]

To the rest of your post:

You're assuming too much about my character, and you don't know me, so please stop it. I'm not some spoiled child who doesn't know how to work hard and accomplish his goals, and I resent the implication. By the way, the Castle Wars requirement for the trimmed Completionist Cape is to complete 5k games. It does not specify that you have to win, lose, or even actively play - only that you sit through 5k games. If Jagex truly wishes for players to participate meaningfully, they can very easily implement an activity bar. Several minigames already have them, after all.

I was making a observation about society in general. People see others all the time with things that they want, but no one wants to put in the effort to achieve them. If they did, no one would buy lottery tickets. People just want things for nothing, and in this case you are one of those people.

[/hide]

In the first sentence you say that you were just making a general observation, but in the last you once again assume that I'm someone who doesn't want to put in any effort to achieve my goals? You're not making much sense to me. The Completionist Cape (t) is the most difficult, non-discontinued item to obtain in the game. Earning one is a gruelling process requiring years of playing, and yet here you are saying that I'm the type of person who doesn't want to put any effort into achieving my goals? If that really were the case, then I wouldn't bother trying in the first case. As things stand, it will probably take me several years before I can obtain one, and it goes without saying that it won't be easy.

 

--------------------

 

I suppose if you do ever make the 5000 CW games achievement, it will be slightly diluted for everyone else because you didn't really "play", did you? Yes, we can get into semantics, but in the end you let other people do the work for you, and you offered nothing in return. If you're not helping, you are hindering IMO.

I disagree; the CW requirement doesn't specify that I must actively participate in the games, and there is no activity bar to force me to do so. And sorry to inform you, but if that's how you feel, then you shouldn't respect anyone in the future who obtains the trimmed cape, since it will be highly unlikely that they haven't afked in any of their 5k CW games. I get the feeling that you don't realise just how many 5k games (at 25 minutes apiece) really are. Of course, 5k is 5k, but you don't really appreciate it until you actually try to reach that number yourself. Do you mind telling me how many CW games you've played, assuming that you've never once afked there?

 

And no, I'm not arguing semantics, and I'm not letting other people "do the work for me". See:

[hide]

You're absolutely right; it isn't about winning or losing. Because of the way Castle Wars is played, I do not need to leech off of the work of anyone else. If everyone were to loaf in Castle Wars, that would serve me just as well (if not better). Unlike with the Fishing Trawler, inactivity in CW does not cause for everyone involved in the minigame to fail. Even if no one does anything, the CW games continue to go on. Remember, tickets mean nothing to me; I simply join each game and wait for the 20-minute timer to expire. What other people do during that time is in no way relevant to me, so no, I am not depending on others to "do the work for me".

[/hide]

 

 

-snip-

I applaud you; I wish I could enjoy Castle Wars as well. However, I can only manage to play seriously for ~3 games in a sitting, and at that pace, I would never be able to earn the Completionist Cape (t). I don't want to give up on my goal of someday (preferably within 3 years) attaining it, so I hope you can understand why I'm more or less forced into loafing at CW. If anything, I blame Jagex for making months of straight playtime at a single minigame one of the requirements, and the fact that they haven't implemented an activity bar there (something they could easily do) is rather telling. Concerning the "legitimacy" of it all, we obviously think differently. I consider what I'm doing to be legitimate, as I'm not macroing or breaking any rules. Hell, I'm not even toeing the line.

 

I respect your opinion, but I must disagree. I'm not capable of taking it slow and easy while having fun (at least at CW), so I have to resort to other methods.

[Robert_R]

I don't understand why I can't be mad at someone who goes into castle wars and just stands there. They join the match knowing that if they don't help we're already a man down. If you don't win the match you get 0 tickets and played for 25 minutes. I enjoy castle wars but I also enjoy winning. And don't say join a castle wars clan because they're hard to come by and if you find one they're small. And I'm talking about a clan that does solely castle wars. I don't care if you join something like sacred clay and just stand there because you don't need to win as a team to get points. If you want to play something that requires you to play as a team to win then don't stand around and do nothing. And don't use the excuse of someone going for the trimmed completionist cape. There are so few of them they're hard to come by, I'm talking about the random players with no reason to play a certain amount of matches and not need to win.

[Dietrich]

I don't understand why I can't be mad at someone who goes into castle wars and just stands there. They join the match knowing that if they don't help we're already a man down. If you don't win the match you get 0 tickets and played for 25 minutes. I enjoy castle wars but I also enjoy winning. And don't say join a castle wars clan because they're hard to come by and if you find one they're small. And I'm talking about a clan that does solely castle wars. I don't care if you join something like sacred clay and just stand there because you don't need to win as a team to get points. If you want to play something that requires you to play as a team to win then don't stand around and do nothing. And don't use the excuse of someone going for the trimmed completionist cape. There are so few of them they're hard to come by, I'm talking about the random players with no reason to play a certain amount of matches and not need to win.

I can't speak for the people who loaf at Castle Wars for some reason other than meeting the Completionist Cape (t) requirement, but I can tell you that people loafing at CW because of the requirement are not at all hard to come by. It's a highly-coveted item, and yet only 1 person currently has it out of all the elite/maxed players in Runescape. For most of them, the CW requirement is the major hurdle that prevents them from obtaining it. At least the other minigame/miniquest requirements are somewhat manageable, but 5k Castle Wars games? There's no other way around it; they must sink a ridiculous amount of time into it, and trying to actively participate the entire time is extraordinarily tiring, believe me.

[xpx]

I don't understand why I can't be mad at someone who goes into castle wars and just stands there. They join the match knowing that if they don't help we're already a man down. If you don't win the match you get 0 tickets and played for 25 minutes. I enjoy castle wars but I also enjoy winning. And don't say join a castle wars clan because they're hard to come by and if you find one they're small. And I'm talking about a clan that does solely castle wars. I don't care if you join something like sacred clay and just stand there because you don't need to win as a team to get points. If you want to play something that requires you to play as a team to win then don't stand around and do nothing. And don't use the excuse of someone going for the trimmed completionist cape. There are so few of them they're hard to come by, I'm talking about the random players with no reason to play a certain amount of matches and not need to win.

I can't speak for the people who loaf at Castle Wars for some reason other than meeting the Completionist Cape (t) requirement, but I can tell you that people loafing at CW because of the requirement are not at all hard to come by. It's a highly-coveted item, and yet only 1 person currently has it out of all the elite/maxed players in Runescape. For most of them, the CW requirement is the major hurdle that prevents them from obtaining it. At least the other minigame/miniquest requirements are somewhat manageable, but 5k Castle Wars games? There's no other way around it; they must sink a ridiculous amount of time into it, and trying to actively participate the entire time is extraordinarily tiring, believe me.

If this does become a major issue for cw it will only prove that the requirement was unreasonable in the first place. I don't really see it as a major issue as some level 50 will basically do as much as some afker and a large portion of the people in a game don't significantly affect the outcome of the game, so a person endlessly killing random people does just as much as someone afking at base, and this is also true for sw. For me, it's very much like afking ivy or rocktails, as they both show dislike for the activity and desire for the result(be it 5k cw games or 99 fishing).

[Kaida23]

I suppose if you do ever make the 5000 CW games achievement, it will be slightly diluted for everyone else because you didn't really "play", did you? Yes, we can get into semantics, but in the end you let other people do the work for you, and you offered nothing in return. If you're not helping, you are hindering IMO.

I disagree; the CW requirement doesn't specify that I must actively participate in the games, and there is no activity bar to force me to do so. And sorry to inform you, but if that's how you feel, then you shouldn't respect anyone in the future who obtains the trimmed cape, since it will be highly unlikely that they haven't afked in any of their 5k CW games. I get the feeling that you don't realise just how many 5k games (at 25 minutes apiece) really are. Of course, 5k is 5k, but you don't really appreciate it until you actually try to reach that number yourself. Do you mind telling me how many CW games you've played, assuming that you've never once afked there?

 

And no, I'm not arguing semantics, and I'm not letting other people "do the work for me". See:

[hide]

You're absolutely right; it isn't about winning or losing. Because of the way Castle Wars is played, I do not need to leech off of the work of anyone else. If everyone were to loaf in Castle Wars, that would serve me just as well (if not better). Unlike with the Fishing Trawler, inactivity in CW does not cause for everyone involved in the minigame to fail. Even if no one does anything, the CW games continue to go on. Remember, tickets mean nothing to me; I simply join each game and wait for the 20-minute timer to expire. What other people do during that time is in no way relevant to me, so no, I am not depending on others to "do the work for me".

[/hide]

It comes down to one simple question: Can Castle Wars be soloed, or do you need other people to play?

 

If you could run a solo game, then no one would get upset if you just stood there watching the clock tick down as you're only wasting your own time. Since you need others to play, by simply standing there and doing nothing you are, by definition, "depending on others to do the work".

[Dietrich]

I suppose if you do ever make the 5000 CW games achievement, it will be slightly diluted for everyone else because you didn't really "play", did you? Yes, we can get into semantics, but in the end you let other people do the work for you, and you offered nothing in return. If you're not helping, you are hindering IMO.

I disagree; the CW requirement doesn't specify that I must actively participate in the games, and there is no activity bar to force me to do so. And sorry to inform you, but if that's how you feel, then you shouldn't respect anyone in the future who obtains the trimmed cape, since it will be highly unlikely that they haven't afked in any of their 5k CW games. I get the feeling that you don't realise just how many 5k games (at 25 minutes apiece) really are. Of course, 5k is 5k, but you don't really appreciate it until you actually try to reach that number yourself. Do you mind telling me how many CW games you've played, assuming that you've never once afked there?

 

And no, I'm not arguing semantics, and I'm not letting other people "do the work for me". See:

[hide]

You're absolutely right; it isn't about winning or losing. Because of the way Castle Wars is played, I do not need to leech off of the work of anyone else. If everyone were to loaf in Castle Wars, that would serve me just as well (if not better). Unlike with the Fishing Trawler, inactivity in CW does not cause for everyone involved in the minigame to fail. Even if no one does anything, the CW games continue to go on. Remember, tickets mean nothing to me; I simply join each game and wait for the 20-minute timer to expire. What other people do during that time is in no way relevant to me, so no, I am not depending on others to "do the work for me".

[/hide]

It comes down to one simple question: Can Castle Wars be soloed, or do you need other people to play?

 

If you could run a solo game, then no one would get upset if you just stood there watching the clock tick down as you're only wasting your own time. Since you need others to play, by simply standing there and doing nothing you are, by definition, "depending on others to do the work".

I disagree. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Castle Wars needs at least one person on each team in order for the game to begin. As I said in my last post, there are many maxed players trying to complete all of the minigame/miniquest requirements for the cape, and every time I've joined a game in world 24 since the Capes update, there have been at least a few of these players loafing on both teams. In other words, there are enough people willing to loaf for the requirement that the participation of regular players is not necessary for the game to begin. We can rely on each other if need be.

[Jeff Delu]

Read: The Little Red Hen

The moral of the story is that those who show no will to contribute to an end product do not deserve to enjoy the end product, or "if a man does not work, let him not eat."

 

I don't think that applies to runescape.

 

Sorry, but it does, entirely. That post and Kaida23's post are perfect analogies of what's going on here. It's taking something on RS and applying the same mindset as if it were real life, which is exactly the debate. There's no point in shooting it down just because it's a game. That person playing Castle Wars to win is investing their 20 minutes (Or is it 25?) of hard work to try and earn the win to secure tickets to reap the rewards. You, and many like you choose not to earn it but expect the finished product anyway and laugh at people who oppose you. The smug attitude you've given off is enough to portray that perfectly when you say how others around you speak of your activities in these games.

 

Not only is it visible in Castle Wars, but in Pest Control it's much the same case that a large group of people will take a loss due to the ignorance and laziness of others who secure the 50 points necessary and laze about watching T.V. for the rest of it. Why the [bleep] are you playing a game if you don't actually enjoy it? How [bleep]ing stupid is that? Stop trying to benefit of others...It's just like people who choose not to seek work but claim benefits from the government; granted, on a much, much lesser scale, barely comparable but the same idea still applies.

 

Some of the attitudes of people playing (Are they even "playing" it anymore?) nowadays I just despise.

 

To start things off I have not "loafed" in castle wars or any other minigame so please don't attack me personally. I was merely defending those that do. I think that for those going for the trimmed cape it is perfectly reasonable to "loaf" around in games because of how unreasonable the requirement is. I also don't think we should say things like "Why do it if it isn't fun?" because I'm sure that we all have at one point or another done something that wasn't fun to achieve something in game or even in real life. Not to mention that "loafing" probably makes it more enjoyable for some people because they can talk to their friends. I personally wouldn't do this in Castlewars but I can't say I would be 100% playing the objective either. I would do whatever I felt like doing in the games which would probably be running around a bit killing some people which really wouldn't help much more than loafing. I guess the bottom line is that loafing will continue (for better or for worse) unless there is an update made to stop it and people that are really bothered by it should just play with a Castlewars clan rather than using one of the themed worlds.

[ilovecuttingyews]

Really now, you see absolutely no difference between choosing not to participate in a game of capture-the-flag on the internet and skipping out on real-life obligations? Those two are completely equal in your mind? I don't know what to say if that's what you actually think, rather than what you're saying just to prove some kind of point. It's absurd. :unsure:

It's not that there is no difference between being online and real life. It's that the difference is not as drastic as people believe. The truth is that you are still a person playing a multiplayer minigame with other people. To think that you are right to sit there as others do the work for you so that you can have the rewards is nothing more than selfish narrow mindedness. It does not matter whether you are playing Runescape, playing sports, or working on a team project, you are interacting with real people and just because you can't see thier flesh and bones doesn't make it right to use them toward your own selfish gains.

[Kaida23]

I disagree. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Castle Wars needs at least one person on each team in order for the game to begin. As I said in my last post, there are many maxed players trying to complete all of the minigame/miniquest requirements for the cape, and every time I've joined a game in world 24 since the Capes update, there have been at least a few of these players loafing on both teams. In other words, there are enough people willing to loaf for the requirement that the participation of regular players is not necessary for the game to begin. We can rely on each other if need be.

So it's okay because others do it? :-s That's not a very good argument.

 

As to there being enough people wanting to do this to run entire games, why don't you (and the others) simply do that? Running games with people who understand from the start that everyone is just going to sit there removes the frustration from the games where people are actually trying to play.

[Blutters]

I thought the people going for Comp(T) were joining games with 5 min left...

[Dietrich]

Really now, you see absolutely no difference between choosing not to participate in a game of capture-the-flag on the internet and skipping out on real-life obligations? Those two are completely equal in your mind? I don't know what to say if that's what you actually think, rather than what you're saying just to prove some kind of point. It's absurd. :unsure:

It's not that there is no difference between being online and real life. It's that the difference is not as drastic as people believe. The truth is that you are still a person playing a multiplayer minigame with other people. To think that you are right to sit there as others do the work for you so that you can have the rewards is nothing more than selfish narrow mindedness. It does not matter whether you are playing Runescape, playing sports, or working on a team project, you are interacting with real people.

I've addressed this countless times; I do not rely on others to "do the work for me". The participation of regular players is completely irrelevant, as I'm not trying to join winning teams and contribute nothing for free tickets. There are enough players loafing that the games would start and conclude just as normal even if there were no regular players.

 

I'm not doing this out of selfishness, and I'm certainly not narrow-minded. I used to be opposed to leeching/loafing as I mentioned in the OP, but then I realised that sometimes you just have to be realistic. Standing on principle is great and all, but it won't change anything here, and it certainly won't help anyone in meeting the 5k games requirement any faster.

 

 

I disagree. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Castle Wars needs at least one person on each team in order for the game to begin. As I said in my last post, there are many maxed players trying to complete all of the minigame/miniquest requirements for the cape, and every time I've joined a game in world 24 since the Capes update, there have been at least a few of these players loafing on both teams. In other words, there are enough people willing to loaf for the requirement that the participation of regular players is not necessary for the game to begin. We can rely on each other if need be.

So it's okay because others do it? :-s That's not a very good argument.

 

As to there being enough people wanting to do this to run entire games, why don't you (and the others) simply do that? Running games with people who understand from the start that everyone is just going to sit there removes the frustration from the games where people are actually trying to play.

You are correct; it is not a good argument. It's a good thing then that that was precisely NOT what I was arguing. You seem to have missed the point, so I'll explain it again.

 

I believe that it is "ok" to loaf in Castle Wars because (1) it's not remotely close to breaking any rules, (2) there is no activity bar to force me to do otherwise, and (3) because the 5k CW game requirement is completely unreasonable, IMO. I brought up the point that there are other loafers since you tried to argue that I'm somehow relying on regular players to "do work for me" simply by being present in the game. I pointed out that there are enough loafers that the participation of regular players is 100% irrelevant. And yes, if loafers were somehow banned from Castle Wars without an activity bar being implemented, then I would turn to the RSOF and some of my friends to form "loafing teams" not completely dissimilar to the 50/50 Great Orb Project teams. However, that has not happened, and so I will continue using the simplest method - namely, using the designated worlds. Remember, I'm loafing at CW because that is the easiest way to keep my sanity while undertaking this challenge, so why would I go out of my way to form an unnecessary team when I don't have to? Building/maintaining a steady minigame team requires a fair amount of effort - something I'm trying to cut down on.

[The Observer]

Loafing in Minigames often isn't very helpful. All it does is decrease the chance of winning the mini-game.

 

eg. If you're a level 138 with full bandos and a pair of claws with extremes your effort could go more towards trying to get the flag or helping to get the flag rather than loafing around.

 

Jagex doesn't condone it, that's why they put minimum activity requirements for Soul Wars and Pest Control.

[Robert_R]

Here's what I think. If someone going for the comp (t) cape didn't do anything I wouldn't hold it against them. The requirement is insane so I wouldn't expect them to play every single match. It's the regular players that for some reason decide they want to just stand around and do nothing. Some games there are enough on both sides for this not to be an issue but when the "loafers" are unbalanced it can blow a whole match. That's who I have a problem with, not people going for comp (t). There's no reason to play castle wars and not do anything if you're not going for the 5k requirement. You get nothing out of losing a castle wars match. I've played games that we had the same amount of players on each side but because more than half of my team didn't want to go help capture the flag or defend we just got destroyed. That's the type of thing that bothers me. At least help win if you're going to play.

 

@Dietrich

I completely agree with your 3rd point. Although I do not like lazy people I can understand that if you're basically forced to play 5k games you won't be playing a lot of the time.

 

I do wish they put some sort of activity meter in castle wars though. It wouldn't really solve the problem of people playing but not putting any effort into winning though so it wouldn't be too effective.

[Zaaps1]

Ask anyone in the Dungeoneering crowd.

 

If a team member is loafing around, is that a problem? You bet your ass it is.

 

It's the same concept. I don't care that CW has many times more people on the teams. I don't care that Trawler doesn't have the exact same mechanics.

 

Are you working with other players? Yes. Do they rely on each other for support? Yes. Is doing nothing contributing to the team? No.

 

Well then damnit if you are not helping you might as well not exist on the team.

 

Also, none of this "oh lol you're comparing a game to real life nerd it's not the same" crap. Do you fail to see that it is the exact same thing? I've seen this argument literally everywhere in all shapes. "X and Y are so different! If you compare them, you are an idiot". No, why don't you actually look on the inside of the issue as opposed to the outside? I know I'm drawing a dangerous generalization here, and I'm sorry if I offend, but anyone who uses this argument is evaluating the situation or example way too shallowly and has no business replying until the posts are reread with a little more thought.

 

"Not contributing to a minigame is the same thing as not contributing to a job". "No lolol this is a game, but that is a job where you get paid and stuff. It's like real life, why are you comparing a game that doesn't matter to real life, which does?" Again, sorry to offend, but why don't you open your eyes and actually understand what's trying to be said here, instead of just reading the surface and pretending you understand? But I suppose different people just look at things differently. I'm not calling anyone stupid here, but something like this doesn't deserve to just be skimmed. It deserves to be processed.

 

Because in essence, both focus on the same thing. Human interaction through cooperation. That's like saying working in an office and working at home are different because of your setting.

 

Inb4"lol comparing argument on internet or employment irl"

 

EDIT: I know I'm jumping into the middle of something but this is just a post on the general topic.

 

Also, I know I'm overexaggerating in the quotes, I'm not trying to draw fire on any specific person.

[Jeff Delu]

Ask anyone in the Dungeoneering crowd.

 

If a team member is loafing around, is that a problem? You bet your ass it is.

 

It's the same concept. I don't care that CW has many times more people on the teams. I don't care that Trawler doesn't have the exact same mechanics.

 

Are you working with other players? Yes. Do they rely on each other for support? Yes. Is doing nothing contributing to the team? No.

 

Well then damnit if you are not helping you might as well not exist on the team.

 

Also, none of this "oh lol you're comparing a game to real life nerd it's not the same" crap. Do you fail to see that it is the exact same thing? I've seen this argument literally everywhere in all shapes. "X and Y are so different! If you compare them, you are an idiot". No, why don't you actually look on the inside of the issue as opposed to the outside? I know I'm drawing a dangerous generalization here, and I'm sorry if I offend, but anyone who uses this argument is evaluating the situation or example way too shallowly and has no business replying until the posts are reread with a little more thought.

 

"Not contributing to a minigame is the same thing as not contributing to a job". "No lolol this is a game, but that is a job where you get paid and stuff. It's like real life, why are you comparing a game that doesn't matter to real life, which does?" Again, sorry to offend, but why don't you open your eyes and actually understand what's trying to be said here, instead of just reading the surface and pretending you understand? But I suppose different people just look at things differently. I'm not calling anyone stupid here, but something like this doesn't deserve to just be skimmed. It deserves to be processed.

 

Because in essence, both focus on the same thing. Human interaction through cooperation. That's like saying working in an office and working at home are different because of your setting.

 

Inb4"lol comparing argument on internet or employment irl"

 

EDIT: I know I'm jumping into the middle of something but this is just a post on the general topic.

 

Also, I know I'm overexaggerating in the quotes, I'm not trying to draw fire on any specific person.

 

I'd argue that loafing in Castlewars is very different from dungeoneering and a job. What happens if you don't participate in a floor? You get kicked from the party. What if you don't do your job? You get fired. What if you loaf in a castle wars game? Nothing. You get the same reward. IMO it's taking advantage of the system not the players. They players that actually play the objective do so because they choose to not because they have to. I'd imagine if these players didn't want to play they would loaf as well. And if players don't feel like participating in a game with people who aren't participating then they can just use a clan. It's as simple as that.

[Dietrich]

Ask anyone in the Dungeoneering crowd.

 

If a team member is loafing around, is that a problem? You bet your ass it is.

 

It's the same concept. I don't care that CW has many times more people on the teams. I don't care that Trawler doesn't have the exact same mechanics.

It is not the same concept. Castle Wars =/= Dungeoneering

 

There can only be up to 5 team members in a DG raid, so yes, having a single person loafing makes a significant impact, especially considering that the team has to defeat the boss of the dungeon in order to receive any rewards. If 1 out of 5 people are loafing, then that's 20% of the entire team. You'll find that only a very small fraction of Castle Wars players are loafing for the Completionist (t), and they are not looking to win the game in the first place. Participation is far, far more important (even vital) in DG than it is in CW. Do you disagree?

 

Well then damnit if you are not helping you might as well not exist on the team.

"If you aren't part of the solution, then you're part of the problem"? Please, we all know that that isn't true in all cases. Again I say that the Completionist (t) loafers aren't looking to win, and so they do not participate. Loafers do not agree beforehand which team they'll all join; they randomly join the game and both teams end up with a roughly equal number of loafers. It is debatable at best whether or not this lends one team or another an advantage, and whatever the case, it certainly isn't a significant one. I contend that loafers are a fairly neutral force.

 

Also, none of this "oh lol you're comparing a game to real life nerd it's not the same" crap. Do you fail to see that it is the exact same thing? I've seen this argument literally everywhere in all shapes. "X and Y are so different! If you compare them, you are an idiot". No, why don't you actually look on the inside of the issue as opposed to the outside? I know I'm drawing a dangerous generalization here, and I'm sorry if I offend, but anyone who uses this argument is evaluating the situation or example way too shallowly and has no business replying until the posts are reread with a little more thought.

 

"Not contributing to a minigame is the same thing as not contributing to a job". "No lolol this is a game, but that is a job where you get paid and stuff. It's like real life, why are you comparing a game that doesn't matter to real life, which does?" Again, sorry to offend, but why don't you open your eyes and actually understand what's trying to be said here, instead of just reading the surface and pretending you understand? But I suppose different people just look at things differently. I'm not calling anyone stupid here, but something like this doesn't deserve to just be skimmed. It deserves to be processed.

If you're going to quote or paraphrase something I've said, please do so in the proper tone. I don't appreciate you twisting my words like that to make it seem like I've not been respectful. And no, again, it is not the same thing. Kaida23 compared loafing in a CW game to slacking off on a real-life work project, and I countered that if I were to slack off at work, I'd likely be fired and would have received no benefit for having done so. The same is not true if I stand around in an online capture-the-flag game. My eyes are open, thank you.

--------------------

 

I must say that I'm very disappointed in your response. You may not care what I think, but as a member of staff, you should already know that speaking the way you have is unacceptable. Your hostility and condescending tone (despite not even being provoked) does not lend itself well to your credibility. It's possible to disagree with someone and yet remain civil all the same, you know.

[Zaaps1]

I'd argue that loafing in Castlewars is very different from dungeoneering and a job. What happens if you don't participate in a floor? You get kicked from the party. What if you don't do your job? You get fired. What if you loaf in a castle wars game? Nothing. You get the same reward. IMO it's taking advantage of the system not the players. They players that actually play the objective do so because they choose to not because they have to. I'd imagine if these players didn't want to play they would loaf as well. And if players don't feel like participating in a game with people who aren't participating then they can just use a clan. It's as simple as that.

 

I'm a bit of an idealist. While it's true you can freeload in CW without direct consequences on the team, that's not really what I think the focus should be on. It really shouldn't be a question of "is it possible to freeload so that I can get away with it" but rather a question of "is it the right thing to do given the parameters around the activity?" Idk, it just seems to me that freeloading just because it's an available option and that no immediate consequences can be seen is a really low thing to do.

 

Next quote, a whole bunch of points were made so I'll post comments in bold, if that's ok.

 

Castle Wars =/= Dungeoneering

 

There can only be up to 5 team members in a DG raid, so yes, having a single person loafing makes a significant impact, especially considering that the team has to defeat the boss of the dungeon in order to receive any rewards. If 1 out of 5 people are loafing, then that's 20% of the entire team. You'll find that only a very small fraction of Castle Wars players are loafing for the Completionist (t), and they are not looking to win the game in the first place. Participation is far, far more important (even vital) in DG than it is in CW. Do you disagree?

 

Of course I do not disagree. But pointing again to the above response, this shouldn't even be brought up if you're trying to argue that it is acceptable. If you are justifying freeloading because you think it won't make a big impact, then in my eyes you've traded away morals already.

 

Yes if you freeload in CW, it's not likely you'll actually hurt the team (besides unbalancing the game's level balance if you're high level), but that's an exterior issue.

 

"If you aren't part of the solution, then you're part of the problem"? Please, we all know that that isn't true in all cases. Again I say that the Completionist (t) loafers aren't looking to win, and so they do not participate. Loafers do not agree beforehand which team they'll all join; they randomly join the game and both teams end up with a roughly equal number loafers. It is debatable at best whether or not this lends one team or another an advantage, and whatever the case, it certainly isn't a significant one. I contend that loafers are a fairly neutral force.

 

I said that if you were not helping the team, you practical don't exist on the team. You're not necessarily a problem (CW is the rare case you aren't, again ignoring the level balance), but you aren't contributing to a game that is built around contribution. Does that seem right to you? Remember this isn't an argument about "I can, and I see no immediate consequences, so I'll do it", it should be "this isn't the right thing to do, so I won't". To me, the former seems way too much like a weak justification of a path that's simply the easy way out.

 

If you're going to quote or paraphrase something I've said, please do so in the proper tone. I don't appreciate you twisting my words like that to make it seem like I've not been respectful. And no, again, it is not the same thing. Kaida23 compared loafing in a CW game to slacking off on a real-life work project, and I countered that if I were to slack off at work, I'd likely be fired and would have received no benefit for having done so. The same is not true if I stand around in an online capture-the-flag game. My eyes are open, thank you.

 

I'll be frank and say that I am frustrated. Not with you, let me make myself clear, no. But at that argument of "X and Y are different on the outside, so they can't be compared". If you are offended, sorry. To be honest I did not mean to make an incendiary quote, but I popped the first example of its use that I read. It's a habit, I hope you'll overlook it but that's probably wishful thinking. If you're offended, sorry, but as I've said I never meant it to offend. Just the way it came out.

 

Anyway, again, the physical punishment should not be part of the equation here. To me it seems like you are saying forsaking morals in an online game has no physical consequences, and therefore it is ok. Whereas betraying your teammates in real life, where you could get fired from your job and suffer said consequences, immediately makes it not ok. But as I've said, it's not a question on whether or not you can get away with it. Look into the actual essence of what you are doing. Either way, you are promising a contribution to teammates, and then betraying that contribution out of personal laziness. Certainly one case is much harsher in the punishment than the other, but if you're doing something because you can get away with it, something is wrong here.

 

I must say that I'm very disappointed in your response. You may not care what I think, but as a member of staff, you should already know that speaking the way you have is unacceptable. Your hostility and condescending tone (despite not even being provoked) does not lend itself well to your credibility. It's possible to disagree with someone and yet remain civil all the same, you know.

 

Well this is not something I will overlook. Clearly I should not have let my frustration (again, at the argument employed, not the employer) be so obvious. I'm sorry I called you out specifically, doubly so since you are offended by an unjust exaggeration of your posts. I was not referencing a specific person, although it may seem that way. I do care what you think, btw. I can hardly say I'm pleased when I unnecessarily offend a poster, especially one who does not deserve it, and I'm sorry you got caught in the line of fire of my venting.

 

But to be frank, it's a very shaky argument every time I've seen it, by any poster. I just got tired of seeing it popping up.

[xpx]

Zaap, one thing to consider is that people who go for the trim cape only need to be in the game, so their goal is different. While other players need to work their asses off to win and get tickets, the trim just requires a set number of games- you don't need the team and you can/will achieve your goal regardless of the outcome of the game. Jagex is basically encouraging them to loaf around...

[Mirror]

I disagree with loafing in minigames, activities, etc. completely. I see the reward as earning it, and personally I don't believe waiting in the wait room for 5 minutes and then waiting in the game for 25 minutes is earning it.

[Zaaps1]

Zaap, one thing to consider is that people who go for the trim cape only need to be in the game, so their goal is different. While other players need to work their asses off to win and get tickets, the trim just requires a set number of games- you don't need the team and you can/will achieve your goal regardless of the outcome of the game. Jagex is basically encouraging them to loaf around...

 

Perhaps their goal is different, but their goal is the same.

 

Let me explain.

 

Yeah it's true those going for C Cape are not trying to win. Their goal is likely different from a teammate (assuming s/he is not also going for the cape). But that's on a personal level. That's looking at the person as a player.

 

Looking at the person as a team member, though, I believe each team member has a duty to other team members. By signing up for a team game, you should be expected to support the team. It's like joining a varsity sport just to say you were on the team, and not actually train with meaning or participate in competitions with much spirit.

 

I agree that Jagex's planning on this aspect of the cape was very short-sighted, but now that it is here, it has to be analyzed on a more moral level. Regardless of whether a person has any actual intention of participating, by joining a game that is centered around participation, it should be expected regardless of personal motives.

[Jax_Wyman]

Loafing in a multi-player mini-game is definitely not cool. By doing so you're taking up space on the team which could be used by someone who would actually benefit it thus dragging your whole team down. Basically you're making yourself useless baggage that all your team mates have to cover for for the length of the game.

 

Now, you say you're only playing the games to get the Completetionist cape and that you're forced to loaf because of Jagex's unreasonable requirement of 5000 castlewars games to obtain it. Oh really? That's not how it works. You seem to have gotten it the wrong way around. It's unreasonable of you to expect to receive the cape without playing 5000 castlewars games. The requirements are what they are. If you feel they are unreasonable you don't have to get the cape. You don't need the cape; you want the cape. It's unreasonable of you to expect the other people playing the mini-game to put up with your loafing because you feel you are being "Forced" to play games to get the requirement for a cape that is entirely optional.