"Loafing" in Minigames

[Dietrich]

While some players prefer to stand in a bank or at the GE while idling in Runescape, I occasionally choose to do the same in a minigame. However, it seems that many players don't appeciate this (to put it lightly), and so I often find myself being flamed ingame and even threatened with being reported for a number of dubious reasons. There are obviously quite a few people who have strong feelings on this, so I thought it would make for a good discussion topic.

 

From what I can tell, the complaints over "loafing" boil down to the following:

 

1. Some of the players "afking" in minigames are actually bots
   
2. Even if they aren't macroing, they're still not being of any help
   
3. By not helping, they don't deserve to share in the rewards afterward
   

Now, I can understand this sentiment, and until a few years ago, I felt the same way. I came to think differently after the themed/designated world update, though, when a friend of mine explained it to me. At the time, there were always 50+ people in the Fishing Trawler (because of the designated world), and I was angry that at least half of them would lounge up on the deck and "leech" off of the rest of the players keeping the boat afloat. My friend and I argued about it a great deal, and I eventually realised that we didn't need the "leeches" to help, considering that we were easily repairing the boat, and that if I was going to become angry over them being rewarded despite putting in no effort, then I should (1) join them myself, (2) get over it, or (3) stop playing the minigame entirely. I was told that if other players were ruining the game for me, then I should either learn to not care so much or move on to something more enjoyable.

 

I'm not aware of the present situation in minigames such as Soul Wars and Pest Control, but I know that there are now more loafers in Castle Wars than ever, thanks to the (rather ridiculous, IMO) requirement of 5k completed CW games for the trimmed Completionist Cape. While I'm years away from obtaining the cape myself, I figure that I should at least start working towards it, and idling in Castle Wars while reading/listening to music/watching videos/doing schoolwork seems to be the best method of meeting that requirement.

 

The problem is that my fellow loafers and I are almost constantly barraged with hate and suspicion; it happens virtually every game. Our teammates accuse us of macroing and dragging down the rest of the team, and while I typically try to respond, it doesn't seem to do much good. I've been wondering if I should simply ignore them, but I suppose that would just cause me to be reported more often. :lol:

 

 

So... what are your opinions on this topic? I'm interested in seeing how the TIF community feels about it.

[Oggymasta]

afk-ing or leaching is.. quite sad and iv put it nicely.

[Jeff Delu]

I don't think that loafers should be rewarded but as long as they are I see no reason not to do it.

[Ambler]

Hmm. if this becomes a real issue: inb4activitymeter.

Seriously though, i have no problem with it, unless it gets to the point that it becomes impossible to be legitly playing.

[Robert_R]

I don't care about other mini games but if you just stand around in castle wars it bugs the hell out of me. Get enough people that do that and you just wasted 25 minutes.

[Kaida23]

No. This is just wrong. All you're doing is taking advantage of the hard work of the people around you. Why should you be rewarded for that?

 

A pose a question to you: if you and a co-worker (assuming you're old enough to have a job) were given a project, and you did all the work while he played games on his computer, would you want him to receive the same rewards, or any rewards, from that project as you? How long do you think that kind of person would last with that, or any, company?

 

I pose another question: what will you do when everyone around you in Castle Wars has the same attitude as you, and they all just stand around and do nothing? Somebody has to put in the work, and it's obvious you simply want benefits for no work.

 

I hate the overreaching sense of entitlement people have today. "Oh, this is too hard to do properly, but I want to get a reward out of it that I don't deserve so I'm going to lie/cheat/steal my way to it an then I can show everyone how good I am at life."

 

Yes it's hard, it's bloody well supposed to be! That's what makes it an achievement!

[Slayer_Jesse]

No. This is just wrong. All you're doing is taking advantage of the hard work of the people around you. Why should you be rewarded for that?

 

A pose a question to you: if you and a co-worker (assuming you're old enough to have a job) were given a project, and you did all the work while he played games on his computer, would you want him to receive the same rewards, or any rewards, from that project as you? How long do you think that kind of person would last with that, or any, company?

 

I pose another question: what will you do when everyone around you in Castle Wars has the same attitude as you, and they all just stand around and do nothing? Somebody has to put in the work, and it's obvious you simply want benefits for no work.

 

I hate the overreaching sense of entitlement people have today. "Oh, this is too hard to do properly, but I want to get a reward out of it that I don't deserve so I'm going to lie/cheat/steal my way to it an then I can show everyone how good I am at life."

 

Yes it's hard, it's bloody well supposed to be! That's what makes it an achievement!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhTiJEYqqY8

[Dietrich]

afk-ing or leaching is.. quite sad and iv put it nicely.

Is there a particular reason why you think so?

 

I don't care about other mini games but if you just stand around in castle wars it bugs the hell out of me. Get enough people that do that and you just wasted 25 minutes.

Personally, I don't care whether I win or lose; I'm not interested in tickets. Unfortunately, if I want to have a chance of obtaining the Completionist Cape within the next few years, I'll need to complete over 4k more games. Actively participating in each and every one of those games would require considerably more effort and time than if I were to semi-afki most of them, since I lose focus/interest in CW after playing only a few games seriously. In this situation, I can either accommodate my teammates or look after my own interests; I must choose one or the other.

 

So what would you have me do, then? Believe it or not, I consider myself to be a charitable person, and I would normally be willing to make some sacrifices for the benefit of others. However, if I do so here, I will be forced to invest myself much more heavily for questionable returns. After all, I'm not an extraordinary skilled CW player who can make much of a difference in a game, even if I tried.

 

I think it's important to note that I don't loaf because I enjoy it or to intentionally piss off/screw over other people. I do it beacuse I don't enjoy Castle Wars enough to play 5k games normally, yet I don't wish to give up on one day earning the Completionist Cape.

 

No. This is just wrong. All you're doing is taking advantage of the hard work of the people around you. Why should you be rewarded for that?

 

A pose a question to you: if you and a co-worker (assuming you're old enough to have a job) were given a project, and you did all the work while he played games on his computer, would you want him to receive the same rewards, or any rewards, from that project as you? How long do you think that kind of person would last with that, or any, company?

 

I pose another question: what will you do when everyone around you in Castle Wars has the same attitude as you, and they all just stand around and do nothing? Somebody has to put in the work, and it's obvious you simply want benefits for no work.

 

I hate the overreaching sense of entitlement people have today. "Oh, this is too hard to do properly, but I want to get a reward out of it that I don't deserve so I'm going to lie/cheat/steal my way to it an then I can show everyone how good I am at life."

 

Yes it's hard, it's bloody well supposed to be! That's what makes it an achievement!

To your first question:

That's not at all a fair comparison, and I'm having trouble telling whether you're serious about it or just chose to use a very poor analogy. Not actively participating in an online game of capture-the-flag is nothing like slacking off on a real-life work project and letting your co-workers cover for you. There's no real comparison to be made here between recreation and work obligations IRL.

I play Runescape during my free time to enjoy myself and accomplish goals I've set. I sometimes have to grind through certain parts of this game which I don't particularly enjoy in order to attain something I do want or to reach one of my goals, and when this happens, I try to go about it efficiently so that I don't have to waste any more time on it than is necessary. You've probably done the same in the past, as well.

 

To your second question:

Again, I can't tell if you're serious. I don't care about winning or losing, so that would suit me just fine. However, it would never happen since many players who participate in CW do so because they enjoy actually playing it. Even if it did somehow magically happen, Jagex would intervene and implement an activity bar, I'm sure.

 

To the rest of your post:

You're assuming too much about my character, and you don't know me, so please stop it. I'm not some spoiled child who doesn't know how to work hard and accomplish his goals, and I resent the implication. By the way, the Castle Wars requirement for the trimmed Completionist Cape is to complete 5k games. It does not specify that you have to win, lose, or even actively play - only that you sit through 5k games. If Jagex truly wishes for players to participate meaningfully, they can very easily implement an activity bar. Several minigames already have them, after all.

[joke_slayer]

for people to win in a minigame or whatever, there have to be people who put the effort in:

 

if nobody did any work at trawler, trawler would sink

therefore people work to "win" at the trawler minigame,

they stop the trawler from sinking and deserve getting the rewards

if it everyone was a leecher, the trawler would sink and they wouldn't get the reward, so you didn't do anything to deserve the rewards that the other people worked for

if people get away with leeching, and get rewards for it, some people who do the work will be like "hey i can get same reward without doing anything" and they stop helping

if enough people do that, the win rate goes down, and people who worked their backsides off will have to spend more resources, and be rewarded less for their efforts, does that seem fair to you?

 

in games like castle wars its a bit different, but it still essentially boils down to you not doing anything is wasting space on your team, meaning that the people doing all the work will have to work harder to get less rewards

say there are 2 teams of 20 in a castle wars game, with one team containing 5 leechers

then the game effectively becomes 15 vs 20, and the legit people in the team with leechers will have to work a lot harder, and be a lot more organised than the other team to have a reasonable chance of winning

 

do you see why people get incredibly annoyed (and rightfully so) at leechers

 

 

EDIT: and trimmed completionist cape argument is so bs, it doesn't have any bonus stats compared to normal completionist cape therefore you have no reason to get it if don't enjoy doing all the content properly, so why should other people have to deal with you wanting such an item, just because you don't care about winning or losing doesn't mean that the people who do all the work don't either

[ilovecuttingyews]

Read: The Little Red Hen

The moral of the story is that those who show no will to contribute to an end product do not deserve to enjoy the end product, or "if a man does not work, let him not eat."

[Jeff Delu]

Read: The Little Red Hen

The moral of the story is that those who show no will to contribute to an end product do not deserve to enjoy the end product, or "if a man does not work, let him not eat."

 

I don't think that applies to runescape.

[highlanders]

I'd say you're doing the right thing, you're getting the reward for minimal effort. Jagex brought this upon the game by giving boring mini-games good rewards (eg. MA) and having the completionist's cape require months' worth of CW games.

[Dietrich]

for people to win in a minigame or whatever, there have to be people who put the effort in:

 

if nobody did any work at trawler, trawler would sink

therefore people work to "win" at the trawler minigame,

they stop the trawler from sinking and deserve getting the rewards

if it everyone was a leecher, the trawler would sink and they wouldn't get the reward, so you didn't do anything to deserve the rewards that the other people worked for

if people get away with leeching, and get rewards for it, some people who do the work will be like "hey i can get same reward without doing anything" and they stop helping

if enough people do that, the win rate goes down, and people who worked their backsides off will have to spend more resources, and be rewarded less for their efforts, does that seem fair to you?

 

in games like castle wars its a bit different, but it still essentially boils down to you not doing anything is wasting space on your team, meaning that the people doing all the work will have to work harder to get less rewards

say there are 2 teams of 20 in a castle wars game, with one team containing 5 leechers

then the game effectively becomes 15 vs 20, and the legit people in the team with leechers will have to work a lot harder, and be a lot more organised than the other team to have a reasonable chance of winning

 

do you see why people get incredibly annoyed (and rightfully so) at leechers

 

 

EDIT: and trimmed completionist cape argument is so bs, it doesn't have any bonus stats compared to normal completionist cape therefore you have no reason to get it if don't enjoy doing all the content properly, so why should other people have to deal with you wanting such an item

As mentioned in the OP, I know quite a bit about the Fishing Trawler and understand the conflict between the leeches and regular players there. For a long time I sympathised with the active players and was unnecessarily and overly concerned about the leeches. What I found during normal games (typically with 4-10 players), was that leeching didn't work very well, as with fewer players, there was a greater chance of failure. If the team failed, no one received any rewards, and if they continued to fail, the leeches would either start helping or leave. As I said before (I think), the vast majority of leeches/loafers don't do it to piss other players off; they attempt to receive the greatest amount of rewards with the least effort possible. If they don't receive any rewards, they tend to start helping or simply leave. It's nothing personal.

 

Anyway, leeching on the Trawler was never a real issue until the designated worlds were made, which caused Trawler to become very popular for awhile. Leeching drastically increased as a result because with 50-200 players in a boat, not everyone could bail or repair the ship - even if they wanted to, there were far too many people already on hand. Thus, some people decided to just stand around instead, and the word spread that since there were so many players participating, it was possible to do nothing and yet still earn rewards. Nowadays, this doesn't work since (1) there are almost no players at Trawler in the designated world, and (2) because there is now an activity bar.

 

As you said, Castle Wars is a very different minigame. If everyone did absolutely nothing, the game would conclude with a score of 0-0, and every player would receive 1 Ticket. Depending on who you ask, this is actually near-ideal for a large number of people, since many consider it extremely frustrating to lose and receive nothing for their efforts. But that's not the point, I realise. You have to consider that not everyone wants to win, especially now that the Completionist Cape has been released. Should they be forced to change the way they wish to play the game simply because others don't approve? Perhaps, and so we'll see what Jagex decides to do about it. By the way, it's not as if loafers decide before each game to all join one particular team. From what I've seen, the number of loafers on each team are roughly equal in the designated worlds, so wouldn't that mean that they don't seriously disadvantage either team?

 

And yes, you don't need to explain to me why people find loafers annoying; I'm already well-aware. I learned that you can do nothing to change their behavouir yourself, so your choices are to (1) join them, (2) ignore them, or (3) leave the game. I understand that you don't consider this to be fair, but you have to be realistic about these things. [cliché]The world isn't fair.[/cliché]

 

About the Completionist Cape, it is what it is. I'm not sure what else to say. Requiring 5k CW games was a mistake, IMO, as it practically forces players into afking the majority of those games. Do you think "Castle Wars" (I'm refering to the player), the only player currently with the trimmed Completionist Cape, actively plays every game? I can tell you that he doesn't; I regularly see him in world 24, and he typically climbs the ladder in the spawn room and afks the entire game. I can confidently guarantee that no one who attains the Completionist Cape in the next few years will have played every CW game actively. It simply requires too much time and effort to max out every skill, play 5k CW games "legitimately", and meet every other requirement that the trimmed Completionist Cape has.

 

 

 

EDIT: These long posts are really tiring. My apologies. :mellow:

[Dietrich]

I'd say you're doing the right thing, you're getting the reward for minimal effort. Jagex brought this upon the game by giving boring mini-games good rewards (eg. MA) and having the completionist's cape require months' worth of CW games.

Thank you, I appreciate it. I was a little worried that no one seemed to understand why I do it. This is Tip.It, after all, and so I was expecting a more balanced response, I suppose you could say. I feel that any significantly high-level player who plans to someday earn the Completionist Cape (t) would realise how crazy completing 5k games actually is, and how it's totally unrealistic to expect anyone to play that many games "legitimately" while trying to meet all of the other requirements at the same time - without burning out and quiting. Whew. :blink:

[pakalolo_mon]

Honestly, you might as well just bot CW. You'd essentially be doing the same thing.

[Dietrich]

Honestly, you might as well just bot CW. You'd essentially be doing the same thing.

I don't follow your reasoning. :unsure:

 

I would never macro, and I honestly don't understand why other high-level players willingly risk their accounts in doing so. Even if they don't share my sense of "honour/fairness" (you could call it) and are willing to cheat, it doesn't seem worthwhile to me to gamble with something you've worked so hard on.

 

Also, there are probably bots for just about everything in Runescape... does that mean none of us should bother playing anymore since we could just have bots do it for us? Is that what you mean? I really can't tell.

----------

 

 

Real life calls! I'll be back later tonight to respond to any replies I receive (if there are any).

[xpx]

If it's a minigame where you being there makes no difference(cw and sw mostly) then i'd say it's fair game, however, in some minigames it actually hurts others(like pc) it should strongly be discouraged. The reason it's ok for cw/sw is mostly because they are time based and a single individual makes basically no difference, particularly with the new 90 day requirement for trim cape.

[Evil_Sabre]

Loafing is not an issue. People who have issues with it are either not intelligent enough or lack the initiative to do something about it. For almost every mini game there is a group or clan to go along with it. If you get genuinely upset with loafing then you obviously either find the game to be fun or are in it for a final reward, in which case you shouldn't be using a themed world and should be in a specialized group. People who get upset at w144 pest control, w117 dung or castle wars don't deserve any sympathy, they're all masochists. There are too many better options to use inferior methods like themed worlds. Therefore loafing is completely acceptable as long as you can get away with it and it benefits you.

[Askthedude]

Honestly, you might as well just bot CW. You'd essentially be doing the same thing.

Is that what you mean? I really can't tell.

 

I think he means you AFKing a game of CW does just about as much to help the team to win as a bot would do. Even though when you think about it a bot would actually help more as it may make people lose a few HPs here and there.

 

In the end if you're playing minigames like CW for the reasons they were first implemented i.e getting the rewards and winning, then you are only hurting your own team because due to the fact that the teams are generally equal in numbers your team has atleast 1 less person helping out than the other.

[Kaida23]

No. This is just wrong. All you're doing is taking advantage of the hard work of the people around you. Why should you be rewarded for that?

 

A pose a question to you: if you and a co-worker (assuming you're old enough to have a job) were given a project, and you did all the work while he played games on his computer, would you want him to receive the same rewards, or any rewards, from that project as you? How long do you think that kind of person would last with that, or any, company?

 

I pose another question: what will you do when everyone around you in Castle Wars has the same attitude as you, and they all just stand around and do nothing? Somebody has to put in the work, and it's obvious you simply want benefits for no work.

 

I hate the overreaching sense of entitlement people have today. "Oh, this is too hard to do properly, but I want to get a reward out of it that I don't deserve so I'm going to lie/cheat/steal my way to it an then I can show everyone how good I am at life."

 

Yes it's hard, it's bloody well supposed to be! That's what makes it an achievement!

To your first question:

That's not at all a fair comparison, and I'm having trouble telling whether you're serious about it or just chose to use a very poor analogy. Not actively participating in an online game of capture-the-flag is nothing like slacking off on a real-life work project and letting your co-workers cover for you. There's no real comparison to be made here between recreation and work obligations IRL.

Of course it's a fair comparison, there's no difference between you sitting there in a game and getting benefits and a co-working sitting there and getting benefits. It's the mindset that that a goal is long and tedious and you shouldn't have to put in the work to get it.

 

I play Runescape during my free time to enjoy myself and accomplish goals I've set. I sometimes have to grind through certain parts of this game which I don't particularly enjoy in order to attain something I do want or to reach one of my goals, and when this happens, I try to go about it efficiently so that I don't have to waste any more time on it than is necessary. You've probably done the same in the past, as well.

Now you're casting aspersions on my character (the very thing you complain about below, I might add). Yes, I do as much as I can in RS efficiently. That doesn't mean that I sit there and leech of the hard work of other people.

 

To your second question:

Again, I can't tell if you're serious. I don't care about winning or losing, so that would suit me just fine. However, it would never happen since many players who participate in CW do so because they enjoy actually playing it. Even if it did somehow magically happen, Jagex would intervene and implement an activity bar, I'm sure.

It's not about winning or losing, it's about mindset; "As long as someone else does the work, I don't have to"

 

To the rest of your post:

You're assuming too much about my character, and you don't know me, so please stop it. I'm not some spoiled child who doesn't know how to work hard and accomplish his goals, and I resent the implication. By the way, the Castle Wars requirement for the trimmed Completionist Cape is to complete 5k games. It does not specify that you have to win, lose, or even actively play - only that you sit through 5k games. If Jagex truly wishes for players to participate meaningfully, they can very easily implement an activity bar. Several minigames already have them, after all.

I was making a observation about society in general. People see others all the time with things that they want, but no one wants to put in the effort to achieve them. If they did, no one would buy lottery tickets. People just want things for nothing, and in this case you are one of those people.

[TheGuthixSword]

Loafing is not an issue. People who have issues with it are either not intelligent enough or lack the initiative to do something about it. For almost every mini game there is a group or clan to go along with it. If you get genuinely upset with loafing then you obviously either find the game to be fun or are in it for a final reward, in which case you shouldn't be using a themed world and should be in a specialized group. People who get upset at w144 pest control, w117 dung or castle wars don't deserve any sympathy, they're all masochists. There are too many better options to use inferior methods like themed worlds. Therefore loafing is completely acceptable as long as you can get away with it and it benefits you.

Exactly. People need to understand that themed worlds are just worlds for loafers. You should join a designated clan for the minigames, especially ones like Stealing Creation. And if, for some reason you want to play on themed worlds you have to understand that if there are loafers on your team there are probably loafers on the other team. While I don't like it when people loaf, its a multiplayer game, lazy people will play so you have to deal with it. This happens on all games, Halo, COD, WoW all of them. And if people cant take it, then they shouldn't play multiplayer games.

[Kaida23]

if people cant take it, then they shouldn't play multiplayer games.

Or the people who do it could stop being lazy and actually play the game. If you just want to watch animated characters move back and forth without interacting with them, there's plenty of cartoons on TV.

[ilovecuttingyews]

Read: The Little Red Hen

The moral of the story is that those who show no will to contribute to an end product do not deserve to enjoy the end product, or "if a man does not work, let him not eat."

I don't think that applies to runescape.

Why not? And please don't use the "RS is just a game therefore no real life morals and values should apply" because so long and you as a real person are playing the game with other real people, real life values such as working for your rewards and not taking advantage of others for your own gain should still apply regardless of the medium.

[Kaida23]

Why not? And please son't use the "RS is just a game therefore no real life morals and values should apply" because so long and you as a real person are playing the game with other real people, real life values such as working for your rewards and not taking advantage of others for your own gain should still apply regardless of the medium.

Thank you! At least somebody else gets it. :thumbsup:

[KingDodongo]

I suppose if you do ever make the 5000 CW games achievement, it will be slightly diluted for everyone else because you didn't really "play", did you? Yes, we can get into semantics, but in the end you let other people do the work for you, and you offered nothing in return. If you're not helping, you are hindering IMO. I feel it necessary to end with a nice quote from a book I read a long time ago.

 

"It stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there's someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." - Ayn Rand.