Israel vs Palestine

[Giordano]

What people don't realize is that there are many Christian Palestinians as well. The Zionists have murdered many Christians as well as Muslims. They aren't welcoming to anyone else in their state. They can't be, the way birthrates are if Israel allowed Christians and Muslims to be citizens then the Jews would be outnumbered within a century. Democratic? Bah, they are only democratic as long as they do not accept other religions in their country. That kind of defeats the purpose of a democracy.

Exactly. That is the biggest problem I have with Israel. If I was a teenaged Palestinian who doesn't care for politics or revenge, I can't even enter Jewish Israel to live in peace and prosperity. Not to mention when Israel cut off the Gaza strip I couldn't even get out.

 

That's the greatest injustice in my opinion. Ruining the land for your profit; its bad but I can't do nothing about it. Not letting me leave to pursue my happiness (which is security and prosperity)? Absolutely terrible.

[ISREAL63]

First, I would like to give some background about me personally. I've lived in Jordan for the past three years. Most of the people living in Jordan currently are Palestinian. I used to support the state of Israel, but after living here I do not anymore. I have no hatred towards Jews or the Jewish faith, just the concept of Zionism disgusts me.

 

Thanks for the background i wish everybody who stated their argument would so.

 

Here is why. I've met many, many Palestinians. They are a peaceful people, they are the kindest I have ever met and extremely welcoming to me, an American. What is important to keep in mind is that Palestinians are also extremely emotional. It upsets them very much to have been abused by the Israelis like they have. Or to know that their families who did not leave do not have basic human freedoms.

 

What abuse would you be referring to? I don't know if you but there are 21 Arab countries with 300 million Arabs in them in the world. In israel the only Jewish state their is 1 million Arabs, That is 0.0033 percent of that Arab population that percentage of Arabs have more human rights then any Arab country, And Israel is not a Arab country. So i am not sure what you mean by they don't have basic human rights would you be willing to explain.

 

I've visited the refugee camps where people have the keys to their former homes on necklaces. Homes that their grandparents were evicted from by gunpoint. The stories I heard of persecution troubled me. It's not a Jewish versus Muslim thing either. What people don't realize is that there are many Christian Palestinians as well. The Zionists have murdered many Christians as well as Muslims. They aren't welcoming to anyone else in their state. They can't be, the way birthrates are if Israel allowed Christians and Muslims to be citizens then the Jews would be outnumbered within a century. Democratic? Bah, they are only democratic as long as they do not accept other religions in their country. That kind of defeats the purpose of a democracy.

 

To start off. In 1948 there were over one million Jews living in various Arab Muslim countries. Many of their communities dated back 2,500 years. Throughout 1947 and 1948 these Jews were persecuted and their property and belongings were confiscated. 1,002,270 Jews were forced out of their homes for simply being Jewish. Most of them fled to Israel and Israel accepted them. They were resettled in Israel at great expense, and without any offer of compensation from the Arab governments who confiscated their possessions. ON the other hand you had 826,000 Arab refugees from Israel. Since the Palestinians refused to accept an independent state of their own in 1948 the Arab states never gave them citizenship.

 

Meanwhile, a leader of the Arab National Committee in Haifa, Hajj Nimer el-Khatib, said Arab soldiers in Jaffa were mistreating the residents. "They robbed individuals and homes. Life was of little value, and the honor of women was defiled. This state of affairs led many Arabs to leave the city under the protection of British tanks. This was under the encouragement of their leaders, they were expelled. This is just one example of many times that they were told by their leaders to flee and they would return of conquerors after they would push the Jews into the sea. I am not denying that some were forced out of their homes but most were encouraged by their leaders to leave.

 

As for the terrorist methods of the Palestinians, it is important to note that the original Zionists used extremely similar methods. In order to persuade the British to support the formation of Israel the Zionists killed many British civilians. The most notable time this happened was the Kind David Hotel bombing. Desperate people resort to desperate methods.

 

You are right there was extremist in the day of the British but they only target them. They didn't send their 12 year old child into a cafe to blow himself up. That is a big deference between the Jewish extremist and the Arab extremist.

 

I can't predict what a solution to the situation would entail. However I can say that I feel what has happened to the Palestinians is very unjust and even reminiscent of the persecution that Jews have faced in the past. Just as the child who is beaten at home becomes a sadistic bully when he enters the schoolyard, so have the Israelis reenacted their own abuse on the Palestinians.

 

How have they reenacted their own abuse on the Palestinians? Please give a example i am not saying it didn't happen i just want something to work with

 

Exactly. That is the biggest problem I have with Israel. If I was a teenaged Palestinian who doesn't care for politics or revenge, I can't even enter Jewish Israel to live in peace and prosperity. Not to mention when Israel cut off the Gaza strip I couldn't even get out.

 

That's the greatest injustice in my opinion. Ruining the land for your profit; its bad but I can't do nothing about it. Not letting me leave to pursue my happiness (which is security and prosperity)? Absolutely terrible.

 

You are forgetting why Israel closed its borders to Gaza because they were smuggling weapons and terrorists between the border. It is not Israel's fault that Egypt has closed its border to Gaza Israel is not to blame here.

[Nifflin]

What abuse would you be referring to? I don't know if you but there are 21 Arab countries with 300 million Arabs in them in the world. In israel the only Jewish state their is 1 million Arabs, That is 0.0033 percent of that Arab population that percentage of Arabs have more human rights then any Arab country, And Israel is not a Arab country. So i am not sure what you mean by they don't have basic human rights would you be willing to explain.

 

I was talking about Palestinians, not Arabs. Though only a small proportion of Arabs were effected, a massive proportion of Palestinians have been.

 

What abuse would you be referring to? I don't know if you but there are 21 Arab countries with 300 million Arabs in them in the world. In israel the only Jewish state their is 1 million Arabs, That is 0.0033 percent of that Arab population that percentage of Arabs have more human rights then any Arab country, And Israel is not a Arab country. So i am not sure what you mean by they don't have basic human rights would you be willing to explain.

 

Mainly being forced off of their lands and away from their livelyhoods, families being seperated for generations, persecution of Palestinians who remained (not giving them work permits), no right of return, the Gaza blockade, numerous massacres of civilians. Shall I go on? Shall I give you specific events?

 

To start off. In 1948 there were over one million Jews living in various Arab Muslim countries. Many of their communities dated back 2,500 years. Throughout 1947 and 1948 these Jews were persecuted and their property and belongings were confiscated. 1,002,270 Jews were forced out of their homes for simply being Jewish. Most of them fled to Israel and Israel accepted them. They were resettled in Israel at great expense, and without any offer of compensation from the Arab governments who confiscated their possessions. ON the other hand you had 826,000 Arab refugees from Israel. Since the Palestinians refused to accept an independent state of their own in 1948 the Arab states never gave them citizenship.

 

Meanwhile, a leader of the Arab National Committee in Haifa, Hajj Nimer el-Khatib, said Arab soldiers in Jaffa were mistreating the residents. "They robbed individuals and homes. Life was of little value, and the honor of women was defiled. This state of affairs led many Arabs to leave the city under the protection of British tanks. This was under the encouragement of their leaders, they were expelled. This is just one example of many times that they were told by their leaders to flee and they would return of conquerors after they would push the Jews into the sea. I am not denying that some were forced out of their homes but most were encouraged by their leaders to leave.

 

That doesn't really address my argument. Unless you are saying that abuses committed by Arabs in other countries are to be avenged on the Palestinians. I know Jews who currently live peacefully in Egypt, Yemen and Jordan. There are others in other Arab countries but I have never met them personally. It doesn't matter if some Arabs persecuted Jews, that shouldn't give Zionists the right to persecute Palestinians, especially not for seventy years. It doesn't work that way morally.

 

I'm glad you agree that they were forced from their homes. The reason their leaders encouraged them to leave was because they did not want them to become casualties. It remains a fact though that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, were forced out of their homes and nothing makes that right.

 

You are right there was extremist in the day of the British but they only target them. They didn't send their 12 year old child into a cafe to blow himself up. That is a big deference between the Jewish extremist and the Arab extremist.

 

Citation for the 12 year old and the cafe please. Moreover in the bombing I referenced people from 40 nationalities were killed by Zionist terrorists. That's not only targeting the British.

 

How have they reenacted their own abuse on the Palestinians? Please give a example i am not saying it didn't happen i just want something to work with

 

I think forcing people out of their homes at gunpoint and into refugee camps behind barbed, guarded with machine guns and dogs wire is somewhat reminiscent of the holocaust, woudn't you say? That's what Zionists have done to Palestinians.

[ISREAL63]

I was talking about Palestinians, not Arabs. Though only a small proportion of Arabs were effected, a massive proportion of Palestinians have been.

 

Why can't he Arab country where they fled accept them Israel did why can't they it isn't a one way street.

 

Mainly being forced off of their lands and away from their livelyhoods, families being seperated for generations, persecution of Palestinians who remained , no right of return, the Gaza blockade, numerous massacres of civilians. Shall I go on? Shall I give you specific events?

 

First off there are 50,000 Palestinians work in Israel. As i stated before most weren't forced they were encourage by their leaders to leave. The Arab states that chased away most of its Jewish inhabitants, 1,002,270 people are not allowed to return to their homes instead israel accepted them and let them be apart of Israel. Why should Israel allow them to return when most left by their own free will. Why can't the Arab states grant them citizenship instead of letting them live in refugee camps.

 

That doesn't really address my argument. Unless you are saying that abuses committed by Arabs in other countries are to be avenged on the Palestinians. I know Jews who currently live peacefully in Egypt, Yemen and Jordan. There are others in other Arab countries but I have never met them personally. It doesn't matter if some Arabs persecuted Jews, that shouldn't give Zionists the right to persecute Palestinians, especially not for seventy years. It doesn't work that way morally.

 

I'm glad you agree that they were forced from their homes. The reason their leaders encouraged them to leave was because they did not want them to become casualties. It remains a fact though that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, were forced out of their homes and nothing makes that right.

 

As i said before most were encouraging by their leaders. 11 Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948 they had 3000 Arab soldier in Jaffa they could have held off the Jewish underground till the Arab armies arrived. Instead the Arab leaders told them to flee and they did as told. Only some were forced out most were encourage by their leaders.

 

Citation for the 12 year old and the cafe please. Moreover in the bombing I referenced people from 40 nationalities were killed by Zionist terrorists. That's not only targeting the British.

 

You are right they also killed non British soldiers but they only targeted the British. Unlike the Palestinian Terrorist organization which target civilians the Jewish extremist did go into a home of a Arab and slaughter the whole family like what happen a few months ago in Itmar to the fogel family

 

I think forcing people out of their homes at gunpoint and into refugee camps behind barbed, guarded with machine guns and dogs wire is somewhat reminiscent of the holocaust, woudn't you say? That's what Zionists have done to Palestinians.

 

I am sorry when did Israel round up Palestinians at gun point and put them behind barbed wire?

[Nifflin]

Why can't he Arab country where they fled accept them Israel did why can't they it isn't a one way street.

 

Some countries did and some didn't. Kuwait for example took in many refugees but granted none of them citizenship. Jordan on the other hand granted millions of refugees citizenship. In fact now one of the biggest problems in Jordan is that Palestinians outnumber native Jordanians. Either way, it's not fair to just assume that it's okay to uproot people just because they had a place to go. Either way, this whole quote chain on this particular subject doesn't address my original claims anymore. As such they still stand.

 

First off there are 50,000 Palestinians work in Israel.

 

Only a small proportion of the total Palestinians still in Israel. Most are unable to obtain work permits, this perpetuates their poverty. Trust me, I've been to Ramala, I've been the Bethlehem, it's very sad to hear the stories these people have.

 

Why can't the Arab states grant them citizenship instead of letting them live in refugee camps.

 

Most Palestinians in camps have chosen to live in camps until they are able to return to the lands that are rightfully theirs. It's just taken them longer then they've expected. It is not the Arab leaders responsibility to accept the refugees. Ultimately the blame falls on the Israelis for making them refugees.

 

You are right they also killed non British soldiers but they only targeted the British. Unlike the Palestinian Terrorist organization which target civilians the Jewish extremist did go into a home of a Arab and slaughter the whole family like what happen a few months ago in Itmar to the fogel family

 

I'll quote from that article; "The murder of the Fogel family has devastated Israel, and shocked many Palestinians. The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, described the killings as 'inhuman and immoral'." This shows how the crime you mentioned was not backed by the mainstream Palestinian establishment. It reflects a small radical sentiment.

 

Meanwhile, here is a link showing hundreds of cases of Israeli government agression towards civilians. I warn you, some of the stuff on that link is pretty graphic. Laser guided missiles and "smart bombs" are very precise. They rarely miss their target. When residential buildings, schools or hospitals are targetted, this means civilians will be killed. These actions, ordered by Israel's IDF are quite deliberate. They are carried out with meticulous accuracy. This is the Israeli government which allows and condones these types of actions. This is the mentality of the mainstream Zionist. I this you, Isreal63, demonstrate this quite well.

 

I think this shows a trend of Zionist aggression. First towards British and other westerners. Then towards Palestinians. More recently towards both Palestinians and neighboring nations. You cannot claim that Israel wants peace when they have NEVER in their existence been a peaceful state.

 

I am sorry when did Israel round up Palestinians at gun point and put them behind barbed wire?

 

Well I've heard multiple stories of people being "relocated" by the Israeli army. My Christian Palestinian friend for example, his grandfather was a judge in Ramala. This made the family very upper class. One day, they were forced out of their home at gunpoint and told they could return in a few weeks. When they tried to return they could not get through the Israeli blockades into the town. They were forced by the Israelis into a refugee camp. Luckily they were able to escape into Jordan by bribing the Israeli guards. They have resettled and due to being educated they were able to rebuild their lives. Years later they are fine, but it still doesn't make what happened to them right.

 

This type of story is commonplace amongst refugees. Many did not choose to leave their homes, they were forced.

 

As for your argument about one town where Arab militarizes advised people to leave, this happens in all wars. What you have though is something called the right of return. It lets peoples displaced by war return to their homes. This way they can leave to protect their children during the time of conflict and then return to their lives. Israel does not recognize this right. When you are told you need to leave your home because it is about to become a warzone, that isn't leaving from your free will.

 

It becomes Israels fault for putting the Palestinians in danger and making them leave.

 

I didn't address some of the things you said because they didn't address my original arguments. For example no citation on the accusation of 12 year old suicide bombers. Sorry.

[Flodder450]

Nifflin,thee website you linked to shocked me quite a bit,it just gruesome to see that we,mankind,can rewind to such barbaric acts of violence

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEjUQ15lyzk

I find these song fit for this thread

[Nifflin]

I know, it disgusts me too. I've become really passionate about this after living here knowing so many Palestinians, Zionists and Jews and seeing what people are capable of doing. Thanks for the songs, they cheer me up a bit. If only things were that simple.

[Range_This11]

Utopian coexistence is impossible. We need a pragmatic sort of coexistence...maybe something offered up by Robin Peckold of Fleet Foxes:

 

"And now after some thinking, I'd say I'd rather be

A functioning cog in some great machinery serving something beyond me"

[The_Gabe]

Some countries did and some didn't. Kuwait for example took in many refugees but granted none of them citizenship. Jordan on the other hand granted millions of refugees citizenship. In fact now one of the biggest problems in Jordan is that Palestinians outnumber native Jordanians. Either way, it's not fair to just assume that it's okay to uproot people just because they had a place to go. Either way, this whole quote chain on this particular subject doesn't address my original claims anymore. As such they still stand.

 

Yet, even though as it was encouraged by the Arab countries to leave Israel until they beat them, it was Palestine Arab Higher Committee who asked the countries not to permit visas and such in those countries. It is not Israel's fault that some countries did not grant them citizenship.

 

Israel's Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, also invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:

 

The fact that there are refuges now is not the problem of Israel. It was Palestinian mistakes that lead them up to this point.

 

You say that Palestinians were forced out of their homes by gunpoint. No, really? After you win a battle (not a war, mind you), you usually want to evacuate the people related to the aggressors even if they weren't involved. The U.S put Japanese in camps also during WWII when Pearl Harbor occurred; this is just a strategy to secure an area.

 

 

Only a small proportion of the total Palestinians still in Israel. Most are unable to obtain work permits, this perpetuates their poverty. Trust me, I've been to Ramala, I've been the Bethlehem, it's very sad to hear the stories these people have.

 

Jobs are not plentiful. There are many Israelis living in the country. What to know something that's called the real world? Most Jewish people would probably hire other Jews over Arabs. That's simply how the world works; and I can assure you, it's not just people in Israel.

 

Most Palestinians in camps have chosen to live in camps until they are able to return to the lands that are rightfully theirs. It's just taken them longer then they've expected. It is not the Arab leaders responsibility to accept the refugees. Ultimately the blame falls on the Israelis for making them refugees.

 

So you're saying because of a false decision by the Palestinians, Israel has to permit them back? It is the Arab leaders responsibility if they encouraged them to leave.

 

I think this shows a trend of Zionist aggression. First towards British and other westerners. Then towards Palestinians. More recently towards both Palestinians and neighboring nations. You cannot claim that Israel wants peace when they have NEVER in their existence been a peaceful state.

 

Now you make me laugh. Show aggression towards other neighboring countries? Is it Israel's fault also that they were attacked on every side when they declared independence? They made and kept a peace treaty with Jordan and others so try and avoid violence.

 

Well I've heard multiple stories of people being "relocated" by the Israeli army. My Christian Palestinian friend for example, his grandfather was a judge in Ramala. This made the family very upper class. One day, they were forced out of their home at gunpoint and told they could return in a few weeks. When they tried to return they could not get through the Israeli blockades into the town. They were forced by the Israelis into a refugee camp. Luckily they were able to escape into Jordan by bribing the Israeli guards. They have resettled and due to being educated they were able to rebuild their lives. Years later they are fine, but it still doesn't make what happened to them right.

 

This type of story is commonplace amongst refugees. Many did not choose to leave their homes, they were forced.

 

Above reply stands on this issue, but also if you want a list of victims from Israeli side because of Palestinians "inhumanities" then there's a site for you. http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm

 

I know, it disgusts me too. I've become really passionate about this after living here knowing so many Palestinians, Zionists and Jews and seeing what people are capable of doing. Thanks for the songs, they cheer me up a bit. If only things were that simple.

 

Go ahead and blame it on the Jews again. I get it; we've always been the ones to be blamed in history.

[Nifflin]

Go ahead and blame it on the Jews again. I get it; we've always been the ones to be blamed in history.

 

I never blamed the Jews. I blame Zionists. I'm not anti-semitic at all, you won't be playing that card on me. IF you read my previous posts I made it clear that I'm friends with many Jews who do not support Israel. These are Jews who live in Arab majority countries. Please don't try and pin that on me, that's why I said Jews and Zionists. All Zionists are Jews but not all Jews are Zionists, the non Zionists I respect immensely.

 

Also, injustices committed to towards the Jews have been horrible, however it gives them no right to mistreat the Palestinians.

 

I'll edit this with the rest of my reply to you Gabe in a bit, just wanted to clear that up first.

[ISREAL63]

Why can't he Arab country where they fled accept them Israel did why can't they it isn't a one way street.

 

Some countries did and some didn't. Kuwait for example took in many refugees but granted none of them citizenship. Jordan on the other hand granted millions of refugees citizenship. In fact now one of the biggest problems in Jordan is that Palestinians outnumber native Jordanians. Either way, it's not fair to just assume that it's okay to uproot people just because they had a place to go. Either way, this whole quote chain on this particular subject doesn't address my original claims anymore. As such they still stand.

 

Israel also had a problem half of it was Jewish refugees forced out of their homes but Israel gave them citizenship.

 

First off there are 50,000 Palestinians work in Israel.

 

Only a small proportion of the total Palestinians still in Israel. Most are unable to obtain work permits, this perpetuates their poverty. Trust me, I've been to Ramala, I've been the Bethlehem, it's very sad to hear the stories these people have.

 

I didn't know that Israel is responsible for providing them with work. The work permit that they can't obtain are to work in pre 67 Israel. Why should they be given those permits, before the intifada israel gave them work permits no problem after it Israel realized that terrorist were using it as a accesses point, and yes they are suffering from that but there is nothing Israel can do it has a right to defend itself. This means that Israel tried to help the Palestinian economy and it was working but terrorist took advantage of it so Israel had the right to deny work permits.

 

Why can't the Arab states grant them citizenship instead of letting them live in refugee camps.

 

Most Palestinians in camps have chosen to live in camps until they are able to return to the lands that are rightfully theirs. It's just taken them longer then they've expected. It is not the Arab leaders responsibility to accept the refugees. Ultimately the blame falls on the Israelis for making them refugees.

 

Actually it is their leaders faults they should have told them to flee. They outnumbered the Jews and they were well armed as oppose to the Jewish underground that was a underground meaning it got what it could. Israel is not to blame for what the Arab leaders said and done

.

 

I'll quote from that article; "The murder of the Fogel family has devastated Israel, and shocked many Palestinians. The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, described the killings as 'inhuman and immoral'." This shows how the crime you mentioned was not backed by the mainstream Palestinian establishment. It reflects a small radical sentiment.

 

Meanwhile, here is a link showing hundreds of cases of Israeli government agression towards civilians[/url]. I warn you, some of the stuff on that link is pretty graphic. Laser guided missiles and "smart bombs" are very precise. They rarely miss their target. When residential buildings, schools or hospitals are targetted, this means civilians will be killed. These actions, ordered by Israel's IDF are quite deliberate. They are carried out with meticulous accuracy. This is the Israeli government which allows and condones these types of actions. This is the mentality of the mainstream Zionist. I this you, Isreal63, demonstrate this quite well.

 

I think this shows a trend of Zionist aggression. First towards British and other westerners. Then towards Palestinians. More recently towards both Palestinians and neighboring nations. You cannot claim that Israel wants peace when they have NEVER in their existence been a peaceful state.

 

Abbas condemnation of Fogel massacre is true but one third of his people support it. So who is right

 

I will quote you "They rarely miss their target" you are correct and Israel only targets terrorist

 

Israel doesn't killed civilian on purpose but when a terrorist hides behind civilian it doesn't leaves Israel much of a chose. So yes their are civilian causalities but only because because of the terrorism.

 

I am sorry you are saying Israel has never been a peaceful state what about the peace treaty with Jordan and Egypt. Or that it gave up the Gaza strip for the sake of peace instead it was bombarded with 12,000 rockets and has had a solider kidnapped it is a long list of terror attacks.

[Nifflin]

I can't debate this any more with you Isreal63, you don't seem to understand half my posts. You also make claims that you are unable to substantiate when I ask for evidence and figures you states are inconsistent. 10k rockets then 12k rockets? I pretty much think they are made up. I'm sorry but it is people like you who fuel this conflict. Ignorance and blind belief are the two plagues of the Middle East.

 

Fortunately, I think this thread has provided a decent demonstration to people who might not have made up their minds. TIFers, I present to you the Zionist, Isreal 63, is this the type of person who it is morally justified to support? No.

[ISREAL63]

I can't debate this any more with you Isreal63, you don't seem to understand half my posts. You also make claims that you are unable to substantiate when I ask for evidence and figures you states are inconsistent. 10k rockets then 12k rockets? I pretty much think they are made up. I'm sorry but it is people like you who fuel this conflict. Ignorance and blind belief are the two plagues of the Middle East.

 

Fortunately, I think this thread has provided a decent demonstration to people who might not have made up their minds. TIFers, I present to you the Zionist, Isreal 63, is this the type of person who it is morally justified to support? No.

 

i understand all your post i don't agree with them i guess you are mixing the 2 of them up. I remember it as 10k i later checked and it is 12k so now you are saying that a terrorist organization has not fired rocket at Israel? I am not the one who is blind and ignorant. You say that you live with Palestinians how about you check out what they are telling you and not believe everything you are told and check it out by yourself.

 

Thank you for name calling when you realized that you are wrong that's how you back out?

[The_Gabe]

I can't debate this any more with you Isreal63, you don't seem to understand half my posts. You also make claims that you are unable to substantiate when I ask for evidence and figures you states are inconsistent. 10k rockets then 12k rockets? I pretty much think they are made up. I'm sorry but it is people like you who fuel this conflict. Ignorance and blind belief are the two plagues of the Middle East.

 

Fortunately, I think this thread has provided a decent demonstration to people who might not have made up their minds. TIFers, I present to you the Zionist, Isreal 63, is this the type of person who it is morally justified to support? No.

 

It looks like Isreal63 perfectly understood your posts. You're asking about inconsistent evidence? You're providing narratives about your own personal lives. Those aren't facts.

 

Ignorance and blind belief are the two plagues of the Middle East. That I can agree with. No party is innocent; however, trying to blame it all on Israel is quite freckly, ignorant of you.

 

Lastly, this thread has not shown a "decent demonstration to people who might not have made up their minds". I can clearly see minds being made up, and facts coming along with them. TIFers, I present to you the anti-Zionist, Niffin, who is the type of the person overlooking facts and being influenced by complains of a few unjust actions while attempting to support peace and security.

[Nifflin]

I've traveled all over the Middle East, lived here for years, met all types of people. Palestinians in Palestine, Jordan and refugee camps. Jewish Palestinians native to the region, Jews who are Jordanian, Yemeni Jews, Zionists. I'm no expert on the issue, I can't quote you speeches or numbers. What I can tell you however is what I've heard from many people, the sentiments I've felt, the people I've seen behind barbed wire, the violent scars of shells in the land. So much emotion, so much evil and so much strength.

 

I'm an outsider looking in on what is going on here, I just want to tell people in this thread what I've seen and heard. That is all, you have tried to challenge me and failed. Please let me type up my reply to Gabe, he is reasonable.

[ISREAL63]

I've traveled all over the Middle East, lived here for years, met all types of people. Palestinians in Palestine, Jordan and refugee camps. Jewish Palestinians native to the region, Jews who are Jordanian, Yemeni Jews, Zionists. I'm no expert on the issue, I can't quote you speeches or numbers. What I can tell you however is what I've heard from many people, the sentiments I've felt, the people I've seen behind barbed wire, the violent scars of shells in the land. So much emotion, so much evil and so much strength.

 

I'm an outsider looking in on what is going on here, I just want to tell people in this thread what I've seen and heard. That is all, you have tried to challenge me and failed. Please let me type up my reply to Gabe, he is reasonable.

You say i failed not me

[Nifflin]

Here Gabe, I'll respond to you here, then type my final words on the issue and I'm done with this thread for the night.

 

Yet, even though as it was encouraged by the Arab countries to leave Israel until they beat them, it was Palestine Arab Higher Committee who asked the countries not to permit visas and such in those countries. It is not Israel's fault that some countries did not grant them citizenship.

 

But why did they seek visas in the first place? Because Zionists decided to form their state in land that already had a people living in it. Moreover Zionists decided they needed to leave that land. Regardless of what Arab leaders did, the root blame for the displacement of the Palestinians that led to so many of them being behind barbed wire lies at the feet of the Zionists.

 

The fact that there are refuges now is not the problem of Israel. It was Palestinian mistakes that lead them up to this point.

 

You say that Palestinians were forced out of their homes by gunpoint. No, really? After you win a battle (not a war, mind you), you usually want to evacuate the people related to the aggressors even if they weren't involved. The U.S put Japanese in camps also during WWII when Pearl Harbor occurred; this is just a strategy to secure an area.

 

Did the Palestinians have a choice as to whether or not the Zionists would choose Palestine to form the Israeli state? No. So how could their mistakes have led them to that point? They didn't. They only did what any people would do when faced with invaders. The right of return that I mentioned earlier allows people to return to their homes after conflict. Japanese in internment camps weren't kept there for seventy years, they were allowed to go back to their homes after the way. Palestinians on the other hand had no homes to go back to after the Israelis bulldozed them and constructed settlements over them. The example you gave just goes to show what a reasonable country like America does concerning the right of return versus what Israel does.

 

Jobs are not plentiful. There are many Israelis living in the country. What to know something that's called the real world? Most Jewish people would probably hire other Jews over Arabs. That's simply how the world works; and I can assure you, it's not just people in Israel.

 

Without work permits many Palestinians can't even attempt to join the workforce. They can't even legally take jobs that most Israelis wouldn't touch such as those in manual labor. The work permit situation perpetuates Palestinian poverty. Just like how the Nazis made it difficult for Jews to "take" German jobs in the years leading up to the holocaust, so do the Israelis deny the Palestinians the ability to seek jobs. So you're right in that regard, it's not just people in Israel.

 

So you're saying because of a false decision by the Palestinians, Israel has to permit them back? It is the Arab leaders responsibility if they encouraged them to leave.

 

I really suggest you read up on some international law. It's called the right of return. The term right of return refers to a principle of international law, codified in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, giving any person the right to return to, and re-enter, his country of origin.

 

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 13 states that "[e]veryone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country."

 

So by denying Palestinians the right to go back to their homes, Israelis are violating their basic human rights.

 

Now you make me laugh. Show aggression towards other neighboring countries? Is it Israel's fault also that they were attacked on every side when they declared independence? They made and kept a peace treaty with Jordan and others so try and avoid violence.

 

Excuse me, I meant more that there is a disproportionate amount of aggression from Israelis. At least if we compare this to how they are provoked. I think the 2006 Israel/Lebanon conflict is an example of this.

 

Lebanon killed three soldiers and captured two. During the resulting conflict 1,200 Lebanese were killed and 160 Israelis were killed. Most Lebanese were civilians. Here is a link showing hundreds of cases of Israeli government agression towards civilians. I warn you, some of the stuff on that link is pretty graphic. Laser guided missiles and "smart bombs" are very precise. They rarely miss their target. When residential buildings, schools or hospitals are targetted, this means civilians will be killed. These actions, ordered by Israel's IDF are quite deliberate. They are carried out with meticulous accuracy. This is the Israeli government which allows and condones these types of actions.

 

I understand that some of the stuff I've brought up has been what I've heard from people. What I pointed out though is that the stories I've cited are not isolated incidents and are representivie of many Palestinian refugee stories.

 

Visiting the camps is really eye opening. Hundereds of people with the keys to their original homes around their necks, their most prized posetions, the deeds to the land they were evicted from.

 

I'm not anti-Zionist. I hope the Israelies someday find a state of their own. I would prefer if they displaced no people at all when they decide to do so. I think Siberia would make a good spot, some place where there are no people whatsoever for them to displace. Truely, I'm pro-human. I belive in human rights. I belive in the rights of the Palestinians. I have loved Jews, I have loved Palestinians. People like you two just seem so blind. I can understand how years of conflict can have muddled your vision, I understand that it's difficult to accept that ones people have made mistakes. I just hope that some day the Israelies will be able to take a good look at themselves before it's too late. The world will only tolerate genocide for so long.

[Nomrombom]

That link... Christ. I've seen the Dnepropetrovsk murders, but that was gruesome...

[fakeitormakeit2]

Nifflin, God bless your works and your house, you speak the truth that the Zionists try to evade. I thank you particularly as I am an "evil" Arab who obviously supports the antisemitic idea of human rights for Palestinians.

[TrueBeaver]

Here I present to you the awesome TrueBeaver, the type of person who is awesome and does awesome things.

 

I've really enjoyed reading the back and forth, but wasn't the reason Israel targeted schools and hospitals because Hezbollah was storing their weapons there?

 

I saw Maen Rashid Areikat on Special Report with Bret Baier the other day and he seems pretty moderate and peace-seeking, despite how the PLO is generally portrayed.

[The_Gabe]

Did the Palestinians have a choice as to whether or not the Zionists would choose Palestine to form the Israeli state? No. So how could their mistakes have led them to that point? They didn't. They only did what any people would do when faced with invaders. The right of return that I mentioned earlier allows people to return to their homes after conflict. Japanese in internment camps weren't kept there for seventy years, they were allowed to go back to their homes after the way. Palestinians on the other hand had no homes to go back to after the Israelis bulldozed them and constructed settlements over them. The example you gave just goes to show what a reasonable country like America does concerning the right of return versus what Israel does.

 

Actually, it was not the Palestinians choice. They were lucky to be asked if they would, but the British did not have to ask them. Here's a reminder: the British controlled Palestine during that time.

 

Palestinians had a right to return for a few years at least. However, there wasn't much of a point leaving unoccupied areas vacant. The Israeli population was growing.

 

Excuse me, I meant more that there is a disproportionate amount of aggression from Israelis. At least if we compare this to how they are provoked. I think the 2006 Israel/Lebanon conflict is an example of this.

 

Lebanon killed three soldiers and captured two. During the resulting conflict 1,200 Lebanese were killed and 160 Israelis were killed. Most Lebanese were civilians. Here is a link showing hundreds of cases of Israeli government agression towards civilians. I warn you, some of the stuff on that link is pretty graphic. Laser guided missiles and "smart bombs" are very precise. They rarely miss their target. When residential buildings, schools or hospitals are targetted, this means civilians will be killed. These actions, ordered by Israel's IDF are quite deliberate. They are carried out with meticulous accuracy. This is the Israeli government which allows and condones these types of actions.

 

I understand that some of the stuff I've brought up has been what I've heard from people. What I pointed out though is that the stories I've cited are not isolated incidents and are representivie of many Palestinian refugee stories.

 

You seem to be thinking that Israel is the only party that supposedly has war crimes. Palestinians committed numerous war crimes as well. http://www.omdurman.org/warcrime.html

 

Once again, no party is innocent.

 

I'm not anti-Zionist. I hope the Israelies someday find a state of their own. I would prefer if they displaced no people at all when they decide to do so. I think Siberia would make a good spot, some place where there are no people whatsoever for them to displace. Truely, I'm pro-human. I belive in human rights. I belive in the rights of the Palestinians. I have loved Jews, I have loved Palestinians. P. I just hope that some day the Israelies will be able to take a good look at themselves before it's too late. The world will only tolerate genocide for so long.

 

Okay, at this part I laughed. SIBERIA? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME? WHY NOT JUST MOVE THE PALESTINIANS TO THE NORTH POLE WHILE WE'RE AT IT! I mean seriously, Siberia? What the [bleep].

 

People like you two just seem so blind. , I understand that it's difficult to accept that ones people have made mistakes.

 

I seem to be blind? Is that what you think? Coming from a person who is neglecting all the acts of the Arabs and Palestinians and calling them innocent. Hypocrisy, thy name is you. On top of that, I started in my last post that no side was innocent.

 

I can understand how years of conflict can have muddled your vision.

Yeah, but someone who is 2 years older than me can sure judge me like that. Once more, hypocrisy.

 

I just hope that some day the Israelies will be able to take a good look at themselves before it's too late. The world will only tolerate genocide for so long.

 

Ha, genocide. That's hilarious. I hope some day Palestinians can take a good look at themselves and see how all the mistakes and condescension they've made turned a compromiseable situation into an ongoing conflict such as this.

 

And lastly

That link... Christ. I've seen the Dnepropetrovsk murders, but that was gruesome...

 

This is your topic. You created it after you saw that the San Fransisco topic was getting beat. Even though you created this topic for the wrong reasons, at least post something constructive in it.

 

 

EDIT: Might be off topic, but TrueBeaver, I was disappointied ya'll canceled on us today :[

[Ginger_Warrior]

I don't think anyone is denying that horrible have been committed in the name of Palestinian sovereignty, we're just refuting the perpetual and self-righteous innocence Israel portrays to the rest of the world.

[Nomrombom]

That link... Christ. I've seen the Dnepropetrovsk murders, but that was gruesome...

 

This is your topic. You created it after you saw that the San Fransisco topic was getting beat. Even though you created this topic for the wrong reasons, at least post something constructive in it.

 

What the [bleep]? I created this topic because we're studying it in school and I wanted other views. Point one = utterly false.

 

Second, I was simply offering my view on the link. I'm attempting to stay out of this discussion until I know more about it. Would you rather I made stupid posts based on incomplete information? No? Then shut up.

[The_Gabe]

That link... Christ. I've seen the Dnepropetrovsk murders, but that was gruesome...

 

This is your topic. You created it after you saw that the San Fransisco topic was getting beat. Even though you created this topic for the wrong reasons, at least post something constructive in it.

 

What the [bleep]? I created this topic because we're studying it in school and I wanted other views. Point one = utterly false.

 

Second, I was simply offering my view on the link. I'm attempting to stay out of this discussion until I know more about it. Would you rather I made stupid posts based on incomplete information? No? Then shut up.

 

I would have rather a person who knows about a subject create a topic on it for a legitimate purpose.

[Napalm]

I would have rather a person who knows about a subject create a topic on it for a legitimate purpose.

 

The purpose is to debate, I don't see how the fact that he is not familiar with the situation prevents the rest from doing so.