China Using Prisoners To Farm MMOs

[Thai_tong]

We kept playing until we could barely see things,"

This scared me.

[sees_all1]

No where in the article is the term "sleep deprivation" mentioned.

 

No where in the article is it determined that he was made to do this "work", constantly, for more than 12 hours a day.

 

No where in the article is there any indication that he was never given breaks.

 

STOP. MAKING. [cabbage]. UP. ALREADY.

 

Seriously!

Then what the hell does

"We kept playing until we could barely see things."

mean?

 

It means he has poor eyesight? It means the computers had poor graphic cards? It means that his graphics settings were too low for him to handle the gaming environment?

 

No - wait! It means you're making something up! :rolleyes:

It wasn't in the article? Why would you quote it multiple times?

[Blyaunte]

Please show me a quote from the article where he says he worked 24 hours a day.

Please show me a quote that says he doesn't.

 

Just because it doesn't specify that he does, doesn't mean it's not true. It's not hard to extrapolate that with 12 hours WoW per night and a minimum of 8 hours manual work in the day, there's no, or little, time to sleep. I think we could all have a bit of a chuckle if this work was instead of the manual work, and the people weren't being physically abused by the prison guards for not being efficient enough, but they are and we aren't.

 

"We worked 12-hour shifts in the camp ..."

 

Which part of above sentence is foreign to you? Seriously? Oh wait -- it's the word "work".

 

You know, you can tell the people who don't actually work for a living.

 

:rolleyes:

[Blyaunte]

[hide]

No where in the article is the term "sleep deprivation" mentioned.

 

No where in the article is it determined that he was made to do this "work", constantly, for more than 12 hours a day.

 

No where in the article is there any indication that he was never given breaks.

 

STOP. MAKING. [cabbage]. UP. ALREADY.

 

Seriously!

Then what the hell does

"We kept playing until we could barely see things."

mean?

 

It means he has poor eyesight? It means the computers had poor graphic cards? It means that his graphics settings were too low for him to handle the gaming environment?

 

No - wait! It means you're making something up! :rolleyes:

It wasn't in the article? Why would you quote it multiple times?

[/hide]

 

You ever work a night shift?

Edited June 1, 2011 by ForsakenMage
Wall of quotes now in hide tags.

[Blyaunte]

I think it's now obvious you have no argument. You are left to responding with unsupported and ignorant statements to opposing arguments.

 

Yes, it's a nicely worded article, isn't it? Too bad you "interpeted" it instead of "reading" it.

 

Go back and read it again. "We worked 12-hour shifts in the camp." If they worked 24/7 he would have said, "We worked 24 hours a day." But he doesn't say that. You INTERPRETED that THAT is what is being said. But he doesn't say that.

 

Therein lies a HUGE difference.

 

That difference is between fact and the fiction that you're making up.

 

It's obvious (or at least I thought it was) that he was refering to playing online games in 12 hour shifts considering the entire paragraph was about playing online games. Also, there are more statements supporting our argument since the article states they work day and night multiple times.

 

I don't have to read it again; I quoted it, the entire paragraph in wich the 12 hour shift statement was made. This was to emphasize the content. My english teacher would call that quote without the context, a floater. No one likes floaters, they're hard to flush.

 

I don't think anyone is saying they worked 24 hours a day. You assumed that from our posts. They obviously have to have some time to sleep otherwise they'd die. Getting less than 7-8 hours of sleep a night for an extented period of time still counts as sleep deprived.

 

If you've ever worked a day in your life -- if you've ever worked "shift" work -- you'd understand the fact that "shifts" work in intervals that cover "night and day" -- that is, DAY shift and NIGHT shift.

 

Shift work is an employment practice designed to make use of the 24 hours of the clock. The term "shift work" includes both long-term night shifts and work schedules in which employees change or rotate shifts. A related yet different concept, the work shift, is the time period during which a person is at work.

 

They worked in 12-hour shifts. Some day shift, some night shift.

 

Nowhere in the article is it implied or confirmed that they worked 24/7.

[Micromal]

Time to do this thoroughly.

 

I must say, Blyaunte, that my perception of you was established early in this thread:

 

"I just find it kind of hilarious TBH -- this image of chubby bloated couch potato-esque prisoners being "forced" to play computer games -- as opposed to the physical demand of hard labour ...

 

:lol:"

 

The way you type "forced" implies (to me, but this would be the general consesus) that you do not believe them to have anything against this. You also seem to be of the impression that the forced goldfarming is "opposed to the physical demand of hard labour". Let me quote the article:

 

 

"As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells."

 

Seeing as this is the very first paragraph in the article, I find it hard to believe that you missed it, seeing as you have read it. He "would slog through tough days breaking rocks... By night, he would slay demons..." This appears to me as an addition, not a replacement. Combined physical labor and mental work is more tiring than physical work alone. 1 + 1 > 1

 

 

"Once upon a time in a land far far away, there was this place where bad people went and they banged rocks, fletched chopsticks, read books and played video games. It was all such hard work.

 

The end.

 

:rolleyes:"

 

This is one of many examples where you generalise to make the matter seem more acceptable. Overly simplifying their forced labor, adding "cosy" cosy activities (I don't recall seeing 'reading books' anywhere in the article, which must be regarded as the source material in this matter), and the rolling eyes at the end indicates to me that you underestimate the gravity of this.

 

 

"You've got murderers, rapists and goodness-knows what other types of known criminals who, instead of being punished through hard-labour, are now all huddled in front of computer screens playing video games -- and complaining about it ...

 

:rolleyes:"

 

Here, you assume what crimes the inmates have committed (you also imply that the goldfarming is instead of physical labor, but I've already mentioned that). Liu Dali wsa imprisoned for

 

""illegally petitioning" the central government about corruption in his hometown."

 

I assume you are aware of the strict reign of the Chinese government, and their general disregard for human rights? If not, do some research (if you can't be bothered, here's a little taste of it). Many prisoners in Chinese prisons are there because they questioned their authorities, or tried to gain insight into the government workings. Many are imprisoned without trial, but disappear without anyone knowing where they are. You know about last year's Nobel's Peace Prize winner, Liu Xiaobo? He called for political reforms, and got thrown in jail. All celebrations by the Chinese people on his accomplishment were stopped or curtailed. His wife was put in house arrest. This is a brief image of the prison systems in China, don't assume that they are all rapists and murderers.

As for your further attempts to ridicule the prisons by statements like "all criminals are innocent, right?", try again.

 

 

"Are you so dense as to think that this really has ANYTHING to do with "world affairs"? Really?"

 

The immoral treatment of wrongfully (in the international society's standards) imprisoned people, and the effect this has on foreign economies etc., yes it does.

 

 

"On a scale of world-wide issues ranging from world peace, the Arab Spring, the death of bin Laden, the world economic crisis, flooding, tornadoes, earthquakes, the Sudan, Israel/Arab relations and everything else not to mention that the rapture is coming on May 21, 2011 October 21, 2011 a news story that, some FOUR YEARS AGO, the Chinese were "forcing" prisoners to play video games for money, isn't even a distant BLIP on the radar of what is newsworthy or of any concern, at all.

 

Jesus Christ, people, get some PERSPECTIVE already ..."

 

Because something is not the worst that is happening, that does not mean that it deserves no attention or seeing-to.

 

 

For your next series of arguments, I quote myself:

 

"Waterboarding is torture. Being beaten with a rubber hose is torture. There's a long list of things that are torture.

 

Playing a video-game is not on that list. Nor will it ever be."

 

Where on that list of yours is sleep deprivation?

Hard physical labor > hard physical labor + sleep-depriving forced goldfarming + risk of further torture

 

 

"... and four year old news is four year old news the world continues to spin on its axis unabated ..."

 

Letting time pass doesn't make things go away. A torturist who get to keep on after a report has been filed is not "innocent" because the reported incident was one of the past.

 

As for you later response, claiming the sleep deprivation to be invented, here's a quote for you:

 

"We kept playing until we could barely see things."

 

This is not, as you have suggested, a result of poor eyesight or lousy graphic cards. Notice "kept playing until". This means that originally, they saw things. As they became tired, they lost focus, and eventually their eyesight deteriorated as a result of fatigue.

 

 

 

This would be a nice time to take a break from reading and get some air.

 

 

 

"Because trading virtual currency for real cash is somewhat shady, the Chinese government introduced a directive in 2009 making it illegal for businesses to trade virtual currency unless they had a license. Dali was released from prison before this directive, but he believes that prisoners are still being exploited.

 

"Many prisons across the northeast of China also forced inmates to play games. It must still be happening," Dali told The Guardian."

 

Translation: I claim it happened -- so it must still be happening -- even though the authorities have taken action against it.

 

Am I the only person who's read the above quote? Really? I must be. The rest of you are running around with your arms flailing and mouths dangling open -- and you're all up about how terrible this whole thing is -- and all I can see is drama queens being drama queens making drama queens make drama."

 

If you read a bit more of the article, it states that

 

"According to figures from the China Internet Centre, nearly £1.2bn of make- believe currencies were traded in China in 2008 and the number of gamers who play to earn and trade credits are on the rise."

 

The business is growing. China has a tradition for using inmates for whatever is more profitable. You need half a brain-stem to figure this one out.

 

 

 

"1. China is a sovereign nation -- what they do within the confines of their own borders to their own people is their own business. If you don't agree with that, then let's open EVERYONE to scrutiny and take a look at how EVERYONE treats their prison population. You'd likely find this less appealing though -- some countries actually murder their own people in prisons and call it punishment."

 

Yes, China is a sovereign nation. That doesn't mean that the international society cannot and should not impose pressure on them.

 

 

"2. The value of an individual's life, the rights that are determined to pertain thereto, varies from country to country. Don't expect any country with over a billion people in it -- to house, maintain and adjudicate -- to have the same concepts of "human rights" and values as your own Western democracy purports to have. "

 

This is part of the problem here, China's general lack of human rights. Fix that, and the problems will be so too.

 

 

"3. If the idea of "forcing" someone to play a video game is your idea of mistreatment -- then, you've a LOT to learn about the cruelty of the world ..."

 

Again, poor use of signs in "forcing". Beating someone if they don't do as you say is generally considered 'forcing'. Again, just because there are worse things in the world, that doesn't make the less-ill treatments ok.

 

 

"Honestly -- the value of human life varies from person to person, really."

 

People's impression of a human life's value varies. Not the value itself.

 

 

"If you want to open China's treatment of prisoners to scrutiny, and condemn them for the things they do, then you'd better be damn well prepared to condemn the treatment of prisoners in some other countries -- particularly those barbaric countries where prisoners are executed, and others held in secret off-site locations where they are routinely tortured."

 

Isn't this exactly what China is doing? Daily torture is routine enough for me!

 

 

"You're all acting as though this is the worst thing ever, and it's this response that is entirely laughable."

 

This is not the worst thing ever, but it is still a bad thing.

 

 

"If, say, the Americans made an al-Qaeda "terrorist" play Runescape, non-stop, without ever letting him sleep, would that be considered torture too? Would you condemn that too?"

 

Yes.

 

 

"1. So far, I have shown this thread to my children, my husband and a half dozen other people IRL -- and they've all agreed with me. Okay, maybe we're all screwed up, but the point is that there's something that some of you are clearly missing, and that appears to be a sense of perspective. Hell, my own son, who plays WoW, read the article and the thread, and half-way through this thread turned to me and said, "They do realize that there's are huge number of people who play WoW for 3-4 days straight, right?" No. Apparently not. "

 

3-4 hours without punishment hanging over you > 12 hours after dayshifts with punishment hanging over you

 

 

"2. Secondly, for the purposes of double-checking my own response to this subject matter, I have also dropped the original post and the link to the article in question into two political message forums in which I participate. The main response to it is -- why aren't [we] using this same system in [our country] to make money off [our] prison system? So far, everyone I know is complete agreement that the entire idea of playing WoW for 12 hour shifts as some form of torture is not only laughable, but the responses aimed at me are, likewise, just plain silly. As compared to the long list of atrocities employed by humanity upon humanity, over the course of human history, making someone play a video game under threat of personal injury is, as I said, not even up for consideration as anything more than laughable. Hell -- I am old enough to remember how, in school, the teachers would "improve" our handwriting skills by breaking rulers across our knuckles -- and that was the least of punishments received in those days. Heaven forbid that you complained about it to your parents either, because you'd likely receive a punishment of equal value."

 

It is the combination of factors here that make the system despicable. Also, comparing past punishment of yours to this makes no sense.

 

 

"3. Thirdly, I'd like to point out something set down in the original article that was clearly missed: it's not even the editor's/writer's opinion that the prisoners playing WoW are sleep-deprived. Read the article again. There is nowhere in that article where it indicates that prisoners were forced to operate under conditions of extreme sleep deprivation. It's implied by some readers, sure enough, and that is clear in their postings here, but that notions is not provided by the source himself or anywhere within the article itself. You all jumped to conclusions that simply weren't there. Threw yourselves into a veritable tizzy about it, in fact. Personally, I find it amusing that I was repeatedly challenged that I hadn't "read the article" when it was abundantly clear that I had, comprehended it, and didn't bastardize the contents of it. :shame: "

 

Read the first paragraph of the article again.

 

 

"4. Finally, for those armchair International Politics experts trying to exert certain concepts related to the operations of United Nations with respect to the employment of "Universal Human Rights", you may want to better educate yourselves before you engage in these types of discussions. For one thing, the United Nations does not and cannot enforce any Universal Human Rights. As for the other, "Universal Human Rights" are neither "Universal" nor are they "Rights". Sure, there's a lovely idea that every human life should exist under some form of guidance under which all people should be governed -- but that's merely wishful thinking. There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ..."

 

Yes, UN does not and can not force sovereign countries to do anything. What they can do and should do is to impose international pressure on Chinese authorities. This is why the UN was made. To impose international pressure through agreements.

As for your tips concerning how to build an argument, look at some of your earlier posts. Reconsider whether you are fit or not to give such advice.

 

That's about it so far.

 

TL;DR: Read it, ffs.

 

Yes, the quoting here is wonky, that is because of a maximum number of quotes on this forum. I apologize for this.

[Master_Smither]

As I said before, the 12 hour shift was in regards to being online. Also, no where did it say they alternated between manual labor and online labor. In fact, the article clearly stated they went from performing manual labor to performing online labor. No where in the article did it say they alternated shifts. However, it did state that during the day they were to perform grueling manual labor and at night gold farm. I never once said they worked 24 hours. In fact, in a previous post I stated the exact same thing and specifically said if they worked 24 hours a day for many days on in, they'd die.

 

In most all sleep-deprivation cases' date=' the brain shuts down without REM sleep. Five sleepless nights would bring on insanity with ten usually causing death. The most anyone's gone without sleep is eleven days, I believe. I doubt anyone would really be able to voluntarily stay up for 11 straight days, though... it's mostly because of insomnia.[/quote']

[sees_all1]

Time to do this thoroughly.

High five.

[Blyaunte]

[hide]

Time to do this thoroughly.

 

I must say, Blyaunte, that my perception of you was established early in this thread:

 

"I just find it kind of hilarious TBH -- this image of chubby bloated couch potato-esque prisoners being "forced" to play computer games -- as opposed to the physical demand of hard labour ...

 

:lol:"

 

The way you type "forced" implies (to me, but this would be the general consesus) that you do not believe them to have anything against this. You also seem to be of the impression that the forced goldfarming is "opposed to the physical demand of hard labour". Let me quote the article:

 

 

"As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells."

 

Seeing as this is the very first paragraph in the article, I find it hard to believe that you missed it, seeing as you have read it. He "would slog through tough days breaking rocks... By night, he would slay demons..." This appears to me as an addition, not a replacement. Combined physical labor and mental work is more tiring than physical work alone. 1 + 1 > 1

 

 

"Once upon a time in a land far far away, there was this place where bad people went and they banged rocks, fletched chopsticks, read books and played video games. It was all such hard work.

 

The end.

 

:rolleyes:"

 

This is one of many examples where you generalise to make the matter seem more acceptable. Overly simplifying their forced labor, adding "cosy" cosy activities (I don't recall seeing 'reading books' anywhere in the article, which must be regarded as the source material in this matter), and the rolling eyes at the end indicates to me that you underestimate the gravity of this.

 

 

"You've got murderers, rapists and goodness-knows what other types of known criminals who, instead of being punished through hard-labour, are now all huddled in front of computer screens playing video games -- and complaining about it ...

 

:rolleyes:"

 

Here, you assume what crimes the inmates have committed (you also imply that the goldfarming is instead of physical labor, but I've already mentioned that). Liu Dali wsa imprisoned for

 

""illegally petitioning" the central government about corruption in his hometown."

 

I assume you are aware of the strict reign of the Chinese government, and their general disregard for human rights? If not, do some research (if you can't be bothered, here's a little taste of it). Many prisoners in Chinese prisons are there because they questioned their authorities, or tried to gain insight into the government workings. Many are imprisoned without trial, but disappear without anyone knowing where they are. You know about last year's Nobel's Peace Prize winner, Liu Xiaobo? He called for political reforms, and got thrown in jail. All celebrations by the Chinese people on his accomplishment were stopped or curtailed. His wife was put in house arrest. This is a brief image of the prison systems in China, don't assume that they are all rapists and murderers.

As for your further attempts to ridicule the prisons by statements like "all criminals are innocent, right?", try again.

 

 

"Are you so dense as to think that this really has ANYTHING to do with "world affairs"? Really?"

 

The immoral treatment of wrongfully (in the international society's standards) imprisoned people, and the effect this has on foreign economies etc., yes it does.

 

 

"On a scale of world-wide issues – ranging from world peace, the Arab Spring, the death of bin Laden, the world economic crisis, flooding, tornadoes, earthquakes, the Sudan, Israel/Arab relations and everything else – not to mention that the rapture is coming on May 21, 2011 October 21, 2011 – a news story that, some FOUR YEARS AGO, the Chinese were "forcing" prisoners to play video games for money, isn't even a distant BLIP on the radar of what is newsworthy or of any concern, at all.

 

Jesus Christ, people, get some PERSPECTIVE already ..."

 

Because something is not the worst that is happening, that does not mean that it deserves no attention or seeing-to.

 

 

For your next series of arguments, I quote myself:

 

"Waterboarding is torture. Being beaten with a rubber hose is torture. There's a long list of things that are torture.

 

Playing a video-game is not on that list. Nor will it ever be."

 

Where on that list of yours is sleep deprivation?

Hard physical labor > hard physical labor + sleep-depriving forced goldfarming + risk of further torture

 

 

"... and four year old news is four year old news – the world continues to spin on its axis unabated ..."

 

Letting time pass doesn't make things go away. A torturist who get to keep on after a report has been filed is not "innocent" because the reported incident was one of the past.

 

As for you later response, claiming the sleep deprivation to be invented, here's a quote for you:

 

"We kept playing until we could barely see things."

 

This is not, as you have suggested, a result of poor eyesight or lousy graphic cards. Notice "kept playing until". This means that originally, they saw things. As they became tired, they lost focus, and eventually their eyesight deteriorated as a result of fatigue.

 

 

 

This would be a nice time to take a break from reading and get some air.

 

 

 

"Because trading virtual currency for real cash is somewhat shady, the Chinese government introduced a directive in 2009 making it illegal for businesses to trade virtual currency unless they had a license. Dali was released from prison before this directive, but he believes that prisoners are still being exploited.

 

"Many prisons across the northeast of China also forced inmates to play games. It must still be happening," Dali told The Guardian."

 

Translation: I claim it happened -- so it must still be happening -- even though the authorities have taken action against it.

 

Am I the only person who's read the above quote? Really? I must be. The rest of you are running around with your arms flailing and mouths dangling open -- and you're all up about how terrible this whole thing is -- and all I can see is drama queens being drama queens making drama queens make drama."

 

If you read a bit more of the article, it states that

 

"According to figures from the China Internet Centre, nearly £1.2bn of make- believe currencies were traded in China in 2008 and the number of gamers who play to earn and trade credits are on the rise."

 

The business is growing. China has a tradition for using inmates for whatever is more profitable. You need half a brain-stem to figure this one out.

 

 

 

"1. China is a sovereign nation -- what they do within the confines of their own borders to their own people is their own business. If you don't agree with that, then let's open EVERYONE to scrutiny and take a look at how EVERYONE treats their prison population. You'd likely find this less appealing though -- some countries actually murder their own people in prisons and call it punishment."

 

Yes, China is a sovereign nation. That doesn't mean that the international society cannot and should not impose pressure on them.

 

 

"2. The value of an individual's life, the rights that are determined to pertain thereto, varies from country to country. Don't expect any country with over a billion people in it -- to house, maintain and adjudicate -- to have the same concepts of "human rights" and values as your own Western democracy purports to have. "

 

This is part of the problem here, China's general lack of human rights. Fix that, and the problems will be so too.

 

 

"3. If the idea of "forcing" someone to play a video game is your idea of mistreatment -- then, you've a LOT to learn about the cruelty of the world ..."

 

Again, poor use of signs in "forcing". Beating someone if they don't do as you say is generally considered 'forcing'. Again, just because there are worse things in the world, that doesn't make the less-ill treatments ok.

 

 

"Honestly -- the value of human life varies from person to person, really."

 

People's impression of a human life's value varies. Not the value itself.

 

 

"If you want to open China's treatment of prisoners to scrutiny, and condemn them for the things they do, then you'd better be damn well prepared to condemn the treatment of prisoners in some other countries -- particularly those barbaric countries where prisoners are executed, and others held in secret off-site locations where they are routinely tortured."

 

Isn't this exactly what China is doing? Daily torture is routine enough for me!

 

 

"You're all acting as though this is the worst thing ever, and it's this response that is entirely laughable."

 

This is not the worst thing ever, but it is still a bad thing.

 

 

"If, say, the Americans made an al-Qaeda "terrorist" play Runescape, non-stop, without ever letting him sleep, would that be considered torture too? Would you condemn that too?"

 

Yes.

 

 

"1. So far, I have shown this thread to my children, my husband and a half dozen other people IRL -- and they've all agreed with me. Okay, maybe we're all screwed up, but the point is that there's something that some of you are clearly missing, and that appears to be a sense of perspective. Hell, my own son, who plays WoW, read the article and the thread, and half-way through this thread turned to me and said, "They do realize that there's are huge number of people who play WoW for 3-4 days straight, right?" No. Apparently not. "

 

3-4 hours without punishment hanging over you > 12 hours after dayshifts with punishment hanging over you

 

 

"2. Secondly, for the purposes of double-checking my own response to this subject matter, I have also dropped the original post and the link to the article in question into two political message forums in which I participate. The main response to it is -- why aren't [we] using this same system in [our country] to make money off [our] prison system? So far, everyone I know is complete agreement that the entire idea of playing WoW for 12 hour shifts as some form of torture is not only laughable, but the responses aimed at me are, likewise, just plain silly. As compared to the long list of atrocities employed by humanity upon humanity, over the course of human history, making someone play a video game under threat of personal injury is, as I said, not even up for consideration as anything more than laughable. Hell -- I am old enough to remember how, in school, the teachers would "improve" our handwriting skills by breaking rulers across our knuckles -- and that was the least of punishments received in those days. Heaven forbid that you complained about it to your parents either, because you'd likely receive a punishment of equal value."

 

It is the combination of factors here that make the system despicable. Also, comparing past punishment of yours to this makes no sense.

 

 

"3. Thirdly, I'd like to point out something set down in the original article that was clearly missed: it's not even the editor's/writer's opinion that the prisoners playing WoW are sleep-deprived. Read the article again. There is nowhere in that article where it indicates that prisoners were forced to operate under conditions of extreme sleep deprivation. It's implied by some readers, sure enough, and that is clear in their postings here, but that notions is not provided by the source himself or anywhere within the article itself. You all jumped to conclusions that simply weren't there. Threw yourselves into a veritable tizzy about it, in fact. Personally, I find it amusing that I was repeatedly challenged that I hadn't "read the article" when it was abundantly clear that I had, comprehended it, and didn't bastardize the contents of it. :shame: "

 

Read the first paragraph of the article again.

 

 

"4. Finally, for those armchair International Politics experts trying to exert certain concepts related to the operations of United Nations with respect to the employment of "Universal Human Rights", you may want to better educate yourselves before you engage in these types of discussions. For one thing, the United Nations does not and cannot enforce any Universal Human Rights. As for the other, "Universal Human Rights" are neither "Universal" nor are they "Rights". Sure, there's a lovely idea that every human life should exist under some form of guidance under which all people should be governed -- but that's merely wishful thinking. There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ..."

 

Yes, UN does not and can not force sovereign countries to do anything. What they can do and should do is to impose international pressure on Chinese authorities. This is why the UN was made. To impose international pressure through agreements.

As for your tips concerning how to build an argument, look at some of your earlier posts. Reconsider whether you are fit or not to give such advice.

 

That's about it so far.

 

TL;DR: Read it, ffs.

 

Yes, the quoting here is wonky, that is because of a maximum number of quotes on this forum. I apologize for this.

[/hide]

 

Okay -- which part of "Day shift" and "night shift", don't you get?

 

"We worked 12-hour days in the camp." So, he worked 12-hours a day. Not 24/7. The first paragraph demonstrates that he worked "day shifts" and "night shifts". Obviously this concept of "shift work" is foreign to you. Look it up.

 

On the days he worked day shift, he mined rocks or carved chopsticks -- or apparently made autoparts for motor vehicles. On those OTHER days, when he was on night shift, he played WoW.

 

Somewhere in between all that he also read Communist documentation for his re-education ... when did he do THAT? While on the toilet perhaps? Yeah! That had to be it!!!

 

How hard is this for you to understand? Really?

[sees_all1]

Okay -- which part of "Day shift" and "night shift", don't you get?

 

"We worked 12-hour days in the camp." So, he worked 12-hours a day. Not 24/7. The first paragraph demonstrates that he worked "day shifts" and "night shifts". Obviously this concept of "shift work" is foreign to you. Look it up.

 

On the days he worked day shift, he mined rocks or carved chopsticks -- or apparently made autoparts for motor vehicles. On those OTHER days, when he was on night shift, he played WoW.

 

Somewhere in between all that he also read Communist documentation for his re-education ... when did he do THAT? While on the toilet perhaps? Yeah! That had to be it!!!

 

How hard is this for you to understand? Really?

As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells.

I'm not sure how you can interpret this any other way than they were sleep deprived.

[Blyaunte]

As I said before, the 12 hour shift was in regards to being online. Also, no where did it say they alternated between manual labor and online labor. In fact, the article clearly stated they went from performing manual labor to performing online labor. No where in the article did it say they alternated shifts. However, it did state that during the day they were to perform grueling manual labor and at night gold farm. I never once said they worked 24 hours. In fact, in a previous post I stated the exact same thing and specifically said if they worked 24 hours a day for many days on in, they'd die.

 

In most all sleep-deprivation cases' date=' the brain shuts down without REM sleep. Five sleepless nights would bring on insanity with ten usually causing death. The most anyone's gone without sleep is eleven days, I believe. I doubt anyone would really be able to voluntarily stay up for 11 straight days, though... it's mostly because of insomnia.[/quote']

 

Holy Jesus [bleep]ing Christ you people are drama queens -- I mean really.

 

"We worked 12-hour shifts in the camp."

 

SHIFT WORK -- look it up!!!!

[Kaida23]

If you've ever worked a day in your life -- if you've ever worked "shift" work -- you'd understand the fact that "shifts" work in intervals that cover "night and day" -- that is, DAY shift and NIGHT shift.

 

Shift work is an employment practice designed to make use of the 24 hours of the clock. The term "shift work" includes both long-term night shifts and work schedules in which employees change or rotate shifts. A related yet different concept, the work shift, is the time period during which a person is at work.

 

They worked in 12-hour shifts. Some day shift, some night shift.

 

Nowhere in the article is it implied or confirmed that they worked 24/7.

Do you honestly believe that prisoners in such an oppressive society as China would be held to a North American style of shift work? Before you start hurling insults at me as well, yes I have worked shift work and in my current job have worked as much as 26 hours straight when needed. I'm quite certain I have a good idea of what a hard day's work is.

 

As others pointed out earlier, and I will try again, it is stated that they would work both day and night at both manual labor and then farming gold

As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells.

It's the very first paragraph in the article.

 

For the sake of argument, let's say they did keep them to a 12-hour shift only. Have you ever been forced to do anything for 12 hours straight? I don't mean forced in the sense of "I need to get this term paper done" or "my boss will yell at me if I don't finish this proposal", but forced as in "if I don't farm enough gold I'll get beaten with a pipe". Neither have I (thank Saradomin). As much fun as playing a video game for 12 hours might sound, if you were being made to do the same activity over and over again with the threat of being beaten if you didn't perform you would be stressed and worried the entire time and after a while that would start to wear on you both physically and mentally.

 

Not all torture is physical in nature.

[Master_Smither]

[hide=Page length saver]

Time to do this thoroughly.

 

I must say, Blyaunte, that my perception of you was established early in this thread:

 

"I just find it kind of hilarious TBH -- this image of chubby bloated couch potato-esque prisoners being "forced" to play computer games -- as opposed to the physical demand of hard labour ...

 

:lol:"

 

The way you type "forced" implies (to me, but this would be the general consesus) that you do not believe them to have anything against this. You also seem to be of the impression that the forced goldfarming is "opposed to the physical demand of hard labour". Let me quote the article:

 

 

"As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells."

 

Seeing as this is the very first paragraph in the article, I find it hard to believe that you missed it, seeing as you have read it. He "would slog through tough days breaking rocks... By night, he would slay demons..." This appears to me as an addition, not a replacement. Combined physical labor and mental work is more tiring than physical work alone. 1 + 1 > 1

 

 

"Once upon a time in a land far far away, there was this place where bad people went and they banged rocks, fletched chopsticks, read books and played video games. It was all such hard work.

 

The end.

 

:rolleyes:"

 

This is one of many examples where you generalise to make the matter seem more acceptable. Overly simplifying their forced labor, adding "cosy" cosy activities (I don't recall seeing 'reading books' anywhere in the article, which must be regarded as the source material in this matter), and the rolling eyes at the end indicates to me that you underestimate the gravity of this.

 

 

"You've got murderers, rapists and goodness-knows what other types of known criminals who, instead of being punished through hard-labour, are now all huddled in front of computer screens playing video games -- and complaining about it ...

 

:rolleyes:"

 

Here, you assume what crimes the inmates have committed (you also imply that the goldfarming is instead of physical labor, but I've already mentioned that). Liu Dali wsa imprisoned for

 

""illegally petitioning" the central government about corruption in his hometown."

 

I assume you are aware of the strict reign of the Chinese government, and their general disregard for human rights? If not, do some research (if you can't be bothered, here's a little taste of it). Many prisoners in Chinese prisons are there because they questioned their authorities, or tried to gain insight into the government workings. Many are imprisoned without trial, but disappear without anyone knowing where they are. You know about last year's Nobel's Peace Prize winner, Liu Xiaobo? He called for political reforms, and got thrown in jail. All celebrations by the Chinese people on his accomplishment were stopped or curtailed. His wife was put in house arrest. This is a brief image of the prison systems in China, don't assume that they are all rapists and murderers.

As for your further attempts to ridicule the prisons by statements like "all criminals are innocent, right?", try again.

 

 

"Are you so dense as to think that this really has ANYTHING to do with "world affairs"? Really?"

 

The immoral treatment of wrongfully (in the international society's standards) imprisoned people, and the effect this has on foreign economies etc., yes it does.

 

 

"On a scale of world-wide issues – ranging from world peace, the Arab Spring, the death of bin Laden, the world economic crisis, flooding, tornadoes, earthquakes, the Sudan, Israel/Arab relations and everything else – not to mention that the rapture is coming on May 21, 2011 October 21, 2011 – a news story that, some FOUR YEARS AGO, the Chinese were "forcing" prisoners to play video games for money, isn't even a distant BLIP on the radar of what is newsworthy or of any concern, at all.

 

Jesus Christ, people, get some PERSPECTIVE already ..."

 

Because something is not the worst that is happening, that does not mean that it deserves no attention or seeing-to.

 

 

For your next series of arguments, I quote myself:

 

"Waterboarding is torture. Being beaten with a rubber hose is torture. There's a long list of things that are torture.

 

Playing a video-game is not on that list. Nor will it ever be."

 

Where on that list of yours is sleep deprivation?

Hard physical labor > hard physical labor + sleep-depriving forced goldfarming + risk of further torture

 

 

"... and four year old news is four year old news – the world continues to spin on its axis unabated ..."

 

Letting time pass doesn't make things go away. A torturist who get to keep on after a report has been filed is not "innocent" because the reported incident was one of the past.

 

As for you later response, claiming the sleep deprivation to be invented, here's a quote for you:

 

"We kept playing until we could barely see things."

 

This is not, as you have suggested, a result of poor eyesight or lousy graphic cards. Notice "kept playing until". This means that originally, they saw things. As they became tired, they lost focus, and eventually their eyesight deteriorated as a result of fatigue.

 

 

 

This would be a nice time to take a break from reading and get some air.

 

 

 

"Because trading virtual currency for real cash is somewhat shady, the Chinese government introduced a directive in 2009 making it illegal for businesses to trade virtual currency unless they had a license. Dali was released from prison before this directive, but he believes that prisoners are still being exploited.

 

"Many prisons across the northeast of China also forced inmates to play games. It must still be happening," Dali told The Guardian."

 

Translation: I claim it happened -- so it must still be happening -- even though the authorities have taken action against it.

 

Am I the only person who's read the above quote? Really? I must be. The rest of you are running around with your arms flailing and mouths dangling open -- and you're all up about how terrible this whole thing is -- and all I can see is drama queens being drama queens making drama queens make drama."

 

If you read a bit more of the article, it states that

 

"According to figures from the China Internet Centre, nearly £1.2bn of make- believe currencies were traded in China in 2008 and the number of gamers who play to earn and trade credits are on the rise."

 

The business is growing. China has a tradition for using inmates for whatever is more profitable. You need half a brain-stem to figure this one out.

 

 

 

"1. China is a sovereign nation -- what they do within the confines of their own borders to their own people is their own business. If you don't agree with that, then let's open EVERYONE to scrutiny and take a look at how EVERYONE treats their prison population. You'd likely find this less appealing though -- some countries actually murder their own people in prisons and call it punishment."

 

Yes, China is a sovereign nation. That doesn't mean that the international society cannot and should not impose pressure on them.

 

 

"2. The value of an individual's life, the rights that are determined to pertain thereto, varies from country to country. Don't expect any country with over a billion people in it -- to house, maintain and adjudicate -- to have the same concepts of "human rights" and values as your own Western democracy purports to have. "

 

This is part of the problem here, China's general lack of human rights. Fix that, and the problems will be so too.

 

 

"3. If the idea of "forcing" someone to play a video game is your idea of mistreatment -- then, you've a LOT to learn about the cruelty of the world ..."

 

Again, poor use of signs in "forcing". Beating someone if they don't do as you say is generally considered 'forcing'. Again, just because there are worse things in the world, that doesn't make the less-ill treatments ok.

 

 

"Honestly -- the value of human life varies from person to person, really."

 

People's impression of a human life's value varies. Not the value itself.

 

 

"If you want to open China's treatment of prisoners to scrutiny, and condemn them for the things they do, then you'd better be damn well prepared to condemn the treatment of prisoners in some other countries -- particularly those barbaric countries where prisoners are executed, and others held in secret off-site locations where they are routinely tortured."

 

Isn't this exactly what China is doing? Daily torture is routine enough for me!

 

 

"You're all acting as though this is the worst thing ever, and it's this response that is entirely laughable."

 

This is not the worst thing ever, but it is still a bad thing.

 

 

"If, say, the Americans made an al-Qaeda "terrorist" play Runescape, non-stop, without ever letting him sleep, would that be considered torture too? Would you condemn that too?"

 

Yes.

 

 

"1. So far, I have shown this thread to my children, my husband and a half dozen other people IRL -- and they've all agreed with me. Okay, maybe we're all screwed up, but the point is that there's something that some of you are clearly missing, and that appears to be a sense of perspective. Hell, my own son, who plays WoW, read the article and the thread, and half-way through this thread turned to me and said, "They do realize that there's are huge number of people who play WoW for 3-4 days straight, right?" No. Apparently not. "

 

3-4 hours without punishment hanging over you > 12 hours after dayshifts with punishment hanging over you

 

 

"2. Secondly, for the purposes of double-checking my own response to this subject matter, I have also dropped the original post and the link to the article in question into two political message forums in which I participate. The main response to it is -- why aren't [we] using this same system in [our country] to make money off [our] prison system? So far, everyone I know is complete agreement that the entire idea of playing WoW for 12 hour shifts as some form of torture is not only laughable, but the responses aimed at me are, likewise, just plain silly. As compared to the long list of atrocities employed by humanity upon humanity, over the course of human history, making someone play a video game under threat of personal injury is, as I said, not even up for consideration as anything more than laughable. Hell -- I am old enough to remember how, in school, the teachers would "improve" our handwriting skills by breaking rulers across our knuckles -- and that was the least of punishments received in those days. Heaven forbid that you complained about it to your parents either, because you'd likely receive a punishment of equal value."

 

It is the combination of factors here that make the system despicable. Also, comparing past punishment of yours to this makes no sense.

 

 

"3. Thirdly, I'd like to point out something set down in the original article that was clearly missed: it's not even the editor's/writer's opinion that the prisoners playing WoW are sleep-deprived. Read the article again. There is nowhere in that article where it indicates that prisoners were forced to operate under conditions of extreme sleep deprivation. It's implied by some readers, sure enough, and that is clear in their postings here, but that notions is not provided by the source himself or anywhere within the article itself. You all jumped to conclusions that simply weren't there. Threw yourselves into a veritable tizzy about it, in fact. Personally, I find it amusing that I was repeatedly challenged that I hadn't "read the article" when it was abundantly clear that I had, comprehended it, and didn't bastardize the contents of it. :shame: "

 

Read the first paragraph of the article again.

 

 

"4. Finally, for those armchair International Politics experts trying to exert certain concepts related to the operations of United Nations with respect to the employment of "Universal Human Rights", you may want to better educate yourselves before you engage in these types of discussions. For one thing, the United Nations does not and cannot enforce any Universal Human Rights. As for the other, "Universal Human Rights" are neither "Universal" nor are they "Rights". Sure, there's a lovely idea that every human life should exist under some form of guidance under which all people should be governed -- but that's merely wishful thinking. There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ..."

 

Yes, UN does not and can not force sovereign countries to do anything. What they can do and should do is to impose international pressure on Chinese authorities. This is why the UN was made. To impose international pressure through agreements.

As for your tips concerning how to build an argument, look at some of your earlier posts. Reconsider whether you are fit or not to give such advice.

 

That's about it so far.

 

TL;DR: Read it, ffs.

 

Yes, the quoting here is wonky, that is because of a maximum number of quotes on this forum. I apologize for this.

[/hide]

 

Okay -- which part of "Day shift" and "night shift", don't you get?

 

"We worked 12-hour days in the camp." So, he worked 12-hours a day. Not 24/7. The first paragraph demonstrates that he worked "day shifts" and "night shifts". Obviously this concept of "shift work" is foreign to you. Look it up.

 

On the days he worked day shift, he mined rocks or carved chopsticks -- or apparently made autoparts for motor vehicles. On those OTHER days, when he was on night shift, he played WoW.

 

Somewhere in between all that he also read Communist documentation for his re-education ... when did he do THAT? While on the toilet perhaps? Yeah! That had to be it!!!

 

How hard is this for you to understand? Really?

 

When did this notation of shift work come about? You've changed your arguments so many times this thread it's hard to keep track. No where is shift work mentioned or implied in the article. Take the quotes in context instead of quote pouching certain sections and making them fit into your argument. Get the fact straight and then you can manipulate them how you like.

 

"As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells."

 

This clearly states he did both in the same day.

 

I am well aware what shift work is.

[Blyaunte]

If you've ever worked a day in your life -- if you've ever worked "shift" work -- you'd understand the fact that "shifts" work in intervals that cover "night and day" -- that is, DAY shift and NIGHT shift.

 

Shift work is an employment practice designed to make use of the 24 hours of the clock. The term "shift work" includes both long-term night shifts and work schedules in which employees change or rotate shifts. A related yet different concept, the work shift, is the time period during which a person is at work.

 

They worked in 12-hour shifts. Some day shift, some night shift.

 

Nowhere in the article is it implied or confirmed that they worked 24/7.

Do you honestly believe that prisoners in such an oppressive society as China would be held to a North American style of shift work? Before you start hurling insults at me as well, yes I have worked shift work and in my current job have worked as much as 26 hours straight when needed. I'm quite certain I have a good idea of what a hard day's work is.

 

As others pointed out earlier, and I will try again, it is stated that they would work both day and night at both manual labor and then farming gold

As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells.

It's the very first paragraph in the article.

 

For the sake of argument, let's say they did keep them to a 12-hour shift only. Have you ever been forced to do anything for 12 hours straight? I don't mean forced in the sense of "I need to get this term paper done" or "my boss will yell at me if I don't finish this proposal", but forced as in "if I don't farm enough gold I'll get beaten with a pipe". Neither have I (thank Saradomin). As much fun as playing a video game for 12 hours might sound, if you were being made to do the same activity over and over again with the threat of being beaten if you didn't perform you would be stressed and worried the entire time and after a while that would start to wear on you both physically and mentally.

 

Not all torture is physical in nature.

 

"We worked 12-hour shifts at camp."

[Micromal]

Now you assume that "the camp" is the the prison facility as a whole, and not just the goldfarming section of it. My point of view is based on the first paragraph in the article. Where is your point originated?

[Blyaunte]

When did this notation of shift work come about? You've changed your arguments so many times this thread it's hard to keep track. No where is shift work mentioned or implied in the article. Take the quotes in context instead of quote pouching certain sections and making them fit into your argument. Get the fact straight and then you can manipulate them how you like.

 

"As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells."

 

This clearly states he did both in the same day.

 

I am well aware what shift work is.

 

I am merely replying, in kind, to the various bizarre arguments that have been flung in my direction.

 

You people tried to prove that China's inhumanity was just terrible and China should be punished and I refuted that. You've dropped THAT argument because you know you've lost that one.

 

You've tried to relate 12 hour shifts of playing video games into some bizarre notion of "torture" -- ignored the obvious facts of the matter, and then, for the most part, tried to drop THAT part of the argument because somewhere along the lines, you've realized that it's just plain silly.

 

Now you're still trying to beat the notion that a "12-hour shift = 24 hours constant work" concept into a dead horse.

 

Seriously -- go back to the drawing board. Come up with a better concept and let's debate that instead. You've lost this one already and it's getting really really old.

[All_Is_Great]

To everyone not familiar with Blyaunte's "comments"...

 

(S)he's a-trollin' :-w

And she never stops.

[Blyaunte]

Now you assume that "the camp" is the the prison facility as a whole, and not just the goldfarming section of it. My point of view is based on the first paragraph in the article. Where is your point originated?

 

Oh yay! A new "angle". :rolleyes:

 

Shall we argue about your definition of "camp" now? Or shall we merely agree to disagree that this is something "lost in translation" as related from the original source?

[Micromal]

You avoided to answer my question with great elegance. I salute you!

[sees_all1]

Now you assume that "the camp" is the the prison facility as a whole, and not just the goldfarming section of it. My point of view is based on the first paragraph in the article. Where is your point originated?

 

Oh yay! A new "angle". :rolleyes:

 

Shall we argue about your definition of "camp" now? Or shall we merely agree to disagree that this is something "lost in translation" as related from the original source?

As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells.

 

I'm not sure how many ways there are to interpret that.

[Master_Smither]

When did this notation of shift work come about? You've changed your arguments so many times this thread it's hard to keep track. No where is shift work mentioned or implied in the article. Take the quotes in context instead of quote pouching certain sections and making them fit into your argument. Get the fact straight and then you can manipulate them how you like.

 

"As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells."

 

This clearly states he did both in the same day.

 

I am well aware what shift work is.

 

I am merely replying, in kind, to the various bizarre arguments that have been flung in my direction.

 

You people tried to prove that China's inhumanity was just terrible and China should be punished and I refuted that. You've dropped THAT argument because you know you've lost that one.

 

You've tried to relate 12 hour shifts of playing video games into some bizarre notion of "torture" -- ignored the obvious facts of the matter, and then, for the most part, tried to drop THAT part of the argument because somewhere along the lines, you've realized that it's just plain silly.

 

Now you're still trying to beat the notion that a "12-hour shift = 24 hours constant work" concept into a dead horse.

 

Seriously -- go back to the drawing board. Come up with a better concept and let's debate that instead. You've lost this one already and it's getting really really old.

 

The other was not dropped, in fact, it was addressed on the last page.

 

You continue to take that quote out of context. Look at the entire paragraph and it's obvious the 12 hour shifts are in regards to the time spent gold farming and not as work as a whole. You seem to like to distort what people are saying and facts in your favor. This only indicates a weak and dying argument.

 

The last statement applies to you. I can't lose any argument when the opposing side distorts facts and still cannot debunk opposing arguments :mellow:

[Blyaunte]

To everyone not familiar with Blyaunte's "comments"...

 

(S)he's a-trollin' :-w

And she never stops.

 

What does one call a troll who accuses others of trolling, I wonder? :rolleyes:

[Micromal]

Now you assume that "the camp" is the the prison facility as a whole, and not just the goldfarming section of it. My point of view is based on the first paragraph in the article. Where is your point originated?

 

Oh yay! A new "angle". :rolleyes:

 

Shall we argue about your definition of "camp" now? Or shall we merely agree to disagree that this is something "lost in translation" as related from the original source?

You never answered my question. I am curious.

[Blyaunte]

Now you assume that "the camp" is the the prison facility as a whole, and not just the goldfarming section of it. My point of view is based on the first paragraph in the article. Where is your point originated?

 

Oh yay! A new "angle". :rolleyes:

 

Shall we argue about your definition of "camp" now? Or shall we merely agree to disagree that this is something "lost in translation" as related from the original source?

As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells.

 

I'm not sure how many ways there are to interpret that.

 

Apparently two -- there's the foolish notion that they worked people 24/7, which is not supported elsewhere in the article -- and there's the correct idea that they split work into 12-hour shifts, some working day shift, and others night shift, at varying tasks ...

 

Now -- which part of this don't you comprehend? Or are you just going to spam the same insipid nonsense repeatedly?

[Micromal]

As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells.

 

I'm not sure how many ways there are to interpret that.

 

Apparently two -- there's the foolish notion that they worked people 24/7, which is not supported elsewhere in the article -- and there's the correct idea that they split work into 12-hour shifts, some working day shift, and others night shift, at varying tasks ...

 

The "foolish notion" is supported already in the very first paragraph, but what you refer to as the "correct notion", I have yet to find supported. Please, tell me; what supports your opinion other than your unaccounted for interpretation of "camp"?