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There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure – go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen – neither is it within its power. That said – if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

 

I'm not commenting on the rest of your post because I don't like interfering with posts directed at other too much, but:

 

"Sure – go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first. "

What the [bleep] is that even supposed to mean?

Yes a pile of crap in someone's hand would draw attention faster than demands (assumably written, if they're being held, as demands alone are incorporeal), but that has nothing to do with anything.

Are you trying to imply that the demands are worth less than fecal matter? If so your comparison is awkwardly phrased and badly executed.

 

And if not, I repeat: What the [bleep] is it supposed to mean, then?

 

 

Anyways, if you're saying demands is worthless, then I'd like to ask you what would have happened if you had never applied for a college.

[/hide]

 

I paraphrased and old expression ...

Edited by ForsakenMage
Wall of quotes now in hide tags.

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There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen neither is it within its power. That said if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

 

I'm not commenting on the rest of your post because I don't like interfering with posts directed at other too much, but:

 

"Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first. "

What the [bleep] is that even supposed to mean?

Yes a pile of crap in someone's hand would draw attention faster than demands (assumably written, if they're being held, as demands alone are incorporeal), but that has nothing to do with anything.

Are you trying to imply that the demands are worth less than fecal matter? If so your comparison is awkwardly phrased and badly executed.

 

And if not, I repeat: What the [bleep] is it supposed to mean, then?

 

 

Anyways, if you're saying demands is worthless, then I'd like to ask you what would have happened if you had never applied for a college.

 

I paraphrased and old expression ...

[/hide]

 

So what you're basically saying is that it's pointless to acknowledge an atrocity as an atrocity if you as a single person cannot stop it alone?

Because the only way to gain support and actually gain the support to end this is through knowledge. Which is spread through stories like the one linked by this article.

The only difference between Hitler and the man next door who comes home and beats his kids every day is circumstance. The intent is the same-- to harm others.

[hide=Tifers say the darndest things]

I told her there was a secret method to doing it - and there is - but my once nimble and agile fingers were unable to perform because I was under the influence.

I would laugh, not hate. I'm a male. :(

Since when was Ireland an island...? :wall:

I actually have a hobby of licking public toilet seats.

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And actually -- no it boils down as to whether one considers 12-hour shifts of playing WoW as "torture" -- but you digress ...

In this case it does. Why do you continue to deflect from the fact that playing WoW is not the same as forced goldmining for hours on end, day in and day out, under threat of physical punishment?

 

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For one thing, the United Nations does not and cannot enforce any Universal Human Rights.

 

I'd concede this to an extent in that they have little military power to stop offenders (See: Darfur); but saying that they are completely unable to support human rights is hyperbolic (For an example see here.)

 

"Support" and "enforce" are two entirely different things.

"Because I could use the intergovernmental clout of the U.N. to win asylum permission, disembarkation permission to get the various ministries concerned to get ships into the port to allow refugees on board to allow them temporary shelter in hospitals and in camps in Singapore." --From my source about a UN official using it's power and connections in order to "enforce" Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of HR. Sorry the words I chose were not completely interchangeable with yours, but they do bear enough resemblance to carry my argument. Now moving on from the Topicality...

 

As for the other, "Universal Human Rights" are neither "Universal" nor are they "Rights". Sure, there's a lovely idea that every human life should exist under some form of guidance under which all people should be governed -- but that's merely wishful thinking.

"There is a difference between having rights and enjoying those rights. In most countries there is still a big gap between human rights in theory and in practice." Source

Simply because they are not being practiced doesn't make them go away. I still have a right to privacy, no matter how much the government spies on me. If the idea of rights can disappear when they are violated, then no one but rich old white heterosexual men would ever have any rights, ever. And considering your track record, I doubt that's the kind of world you believe in or want to create.

 

There is a difference between enjoying those rights and/or wanting and needing those rights. In a Western democracy, where we've got food on store shelves, income to provide pretty houses and lots of interesting fashions to cover our backsides, it's very easy to think that our "rights" are "Universal".

 

In a place where one struggles to find food, has little or no shelter, barely enough clothing to stay warm, it is entirely another matter. These people are often more concerned about where their next meal is coming from, or if they will ever have fresh drinking water, than having concerns about their "right to privacy", or any other "right" deemed "universal". These notions of "Universal Human Rights" are merely luxuries, afforded to those who have the free time to employ and otherwise enjoy them.

 

Ask a starving man if he'd rather eat (and do what you tell him) or vote and exercise his Universal Human Right – which do you think he will choose? If you think he will choose the latter, then you're even more out of touch with the greater realities of what goes on this world than I originally suspected.

 

China is many things, but a third world country it is not. And no, I'm not so "out of touch with the greater realities of what goes on this world" to think that lack of food or shelter aren't problems in China. A person you described living in China, however, would be far in the minority, especially in urban areas. So to expect basic human decencies to be upheld in one of the largest economies in the world isn't exactly a stretch.

 

There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure – go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen – neither is it within its power. That said – if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

And what is this article for if not a rallying point to try and change Chinese policies? This was written, posted, and then re-posted here in an effort to make the lives of Chinese citizens better, and since you agree that internet activism can achieve great things why are you so cynical about this whole thing? Like TTanT said above, you're acknowledging that we must band together in new ways through social networks to fight modern tyranny. Except that's exactly what you're interfering with, demeaning, laughing at, and being cynical about.

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There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen neither is it within its power. That said if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

 

I'm not commenting on the rest of your post because I don't like interfering with posts directed at other too much, but:

 

"Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first. "

What the [bleep] is that even supposed to mean?

Yes a pile of crap in someone's hand would draw attention faster than demands (assumably written, if they're being held, as demands alone are incorporeal), but that has nothing to do with anything.

Are you trying to imply that the demands are worth less than fecal matter? If so your comparison is awkwardly phrased and badly executed.

 

And if not, I repeat: What the [bleep] is it supposed to mean, then?

 

 

Anyways, if you're saying demands is worthless, then I'd like to ask you what would have happened if you had never applied for a college.

 

I paraphrased and old expression ...

[/hide]

 

So what you're basically saying is that it's pointless to acknowledge an atrocity as an atrocity if you as a single person cannot stop it alone?

Because the only way to gain support and actually gain the support to end this is through knowledge. Which is spread through stories like the one linked by this article.

 

No. What I am saying is that you can scream all you want about certain "atrocities", but the likelihood that you're going to affect change screaming about them is so close to zero, that it's really not worth the time or effort to get all excited about them. Mainly because, in this case, the act itself isn't all that atrocious, despite the tender mercies of certain individuals herein to claim otherwise.

 

There's a time to pick your battles. There's a time to get morally outraged. This isn't one of them.

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Also to the chinese citizens you knew what was coming for breaking petty crimes

What about petitioning the government because your local government is corrupt?

 

I didnt know they had state and local governments I thought everything had to go through the central national government in china.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_China

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Also to the chinese citizens you knew what was coming for breaking petty crimes

What about petitioning the government because your local government is corrupt?

 

I didnt know they had state and local governments I thought everything had to go through the central national government in china.

Ninja'd

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There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen neither is it within its power. That said if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

 

I'm not commenting on the rest of your post because I don't like interfering with posts directed at other too much, but:

 

"Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first. "

What the [bleep] is that even supposed to mean?

Yes a pile of crap in someone's hand would draw attention faster than demands (assumably written, if they're being held, as demands alone are incorporeal), but that has nothing to do with anything.

Are you trying to imply that the demands are worth less than fecal matter? If so your comparison is awkwardly phrased and badly executed.

 

And if not, I repeat: What the [bleep] is it supposed to mean, then?

 

 

Anyways, if you're saying demands is worthless, then I'd like to ask you what would have happened if you had never applied for a college.

 

I paraphrased and old expression ...

[/hide]

 

So what you're basically saying is that it's pointless to acknowledge an atrocity as an atrocity if you as a single person cannot stop it alone?

Because the only way to gain support and actually gain the support to end this is through knowledge. Which is spread through stories like the one linked by this article.

 

No. What I am saying is that you can scream all you want about certain "atrocities", but the likelihood that you're going to affect change screaming about them is so close to zero, that it's really not worth the time or effort to get all excited about them. Mainly because, in this case, the act itself isn't all that atrocious, despite the tender mercies of certain individuals herein to claim otherwise.

 

There's a time to pick your battles. There's a time to get morally outraged. This isn't one of them.

 

So you consider it not too bad to be locked up, and forced to do manual labor all day, and grind in video games all night (a good aprallel example to this would be being forced to re-write documents all night every night, and be beaten when you missed your quota for number of documents copied), the combination of which would cause extreme sleep deprivation over time in anyone who can't run on four or less hours of sleep a night for months at a time?

 

And if you say that it's contestable that they're sleep deprived, read Sees All's most recent post, especially the huge fonted bit.

The only difference between Hitler and the man next door who comes home and beats his kids every day is circumstance. The intent is the same-- to harm others.

[hide=Tifers say the darndest things]

I told her there was a secret method to doing it - and there is - but my once nimble and agile fingers were unable to perform because I was under the influence.

I would laugh, not hate. I'm a male. :(

Since when was Ireland an island...? :wall:

I actually have a hobby of licking public toilet seats.

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And actually -- no it boils down as to whether one considers 12-hour shifts of playing WoW as "torture" -- but you digress ...

In this case it does. Why do you continue to deflect from the fact that playing WoW is not the same as forced goldmining for hours on end, day in and day out, under threat of physical punishment?

The difference between physical and mental perhaps? Which would definitely downplay the psychological aspect of torture, stress, and so on. Could even be used to deny that psychological torture exists. I'm sure that certain governments would be thrilled by that.

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[hide]

There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen neither is it within its power. That said if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

 

I'm not commenting on the rest of your post because I don't like interfering with posts directed at other too much, but:

 

"Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first. "

What the [bleep] is that even supposed to mean?

Yes a pile of crap in someone's hand would draw attention faster than demands (assumably written, if they're being held, as demands alone are incorporeal), but that has nothing to do with anything.

Are you trying to imply that the demands are worth less than fecal matter? If so your comparison is awkwardly phrased and badly executed.

 

And if not, I repeat: What the [bleep] is it supposed to mean, then?

 

 

Anyways, if you're saying demands is worthless, then I'd like to ask you what would have happened if you had never applied for a college.

 

I paraphrased and old expression ...

[/hide]

 

So what you're basically saying is that it's pointless to acknowledge an atrocity as an atrocity if you as a single person cannot stop it alone?

Because the only way to gain support and actually gain the support to end this is through knowledge. Which is spread through stories like the one linked by this article.

 

No. What I am saying is that you can scream all you want about certain "atrocities", but the likelihood that you're going to affect change screaming about them is so close to zero, that it's really not worth the time or effort to get all excited about them. Mainly because, in this case, the act itself isn't all that atrocious, despite the tender mercies of certain individuals herein to claim otherwise.

 

There's a time to pick your battles. There's a time to get morally outraged. This isn't one of them.

Torture is torture, yes it may not be as physically extreme as other methods listed earlier but these things can add up (Not to mention, you know, psychological torture can be just as damaging). And yes, I agree we have to be smart about our battles, but more information is never bad and it's not like my empathy is an extremely finite resource. "Oh no, sorry Palestinian living in poverty in Gaza, I was sympathizing with Chinese torture victims today, no sympathy for you. I can pen you in sometime next week." I'd agree if you said that you need to consider where to devote our resources to have the greatest impact, but moral outrage isn't something that has to run out as long as stuff like this can continue to happen.

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Treasure Trails: Saradomin Full Helm, Ranger Boots, Rune Body (t), Saradomin Vambraces, Various God Pages
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For one thing, the United Nations does not and cannot enforce any Universal Human Rights.

 

I'd concede this to an extent in that they have little military power to stop offenders (See: Darfur); but saying that they are completely unable to support human rights is hyperbolic (For an example see here.)

 

"Support" and "enforce" are two entirely different things.

"Because I could use the intergovernmental clout of the U.N. to win asylum permission, disembarkation permission to get the various ministries concerned to get ships into the port to allow refugees on board to allow them temporary shelter in hospitals and in camps in Singapore." --From my source about a UN official using it's power and connections in order to "enforce" Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of HR. Sorry the words I chose were not completely interchangeable with yours, but they do bear enough resemblance to carry my argument. Now moving on from the Topicality...

[/hide]

 

You're trying to swathe an awfully WIDE GAP between "support" and "enforce" here, and you know it. Is providing relief to those seeking assistance/comfort/asylum "enforcement" by the U.N.?

 

No. No it isn't.

 

[hide]

As for the other, "Universal Human Rights" are neither "Universal" nor are they "Rights". Sure, there's a lovely idea that every human life should exist under some form of guidance under which all people should be governed -- but that's merely wishful thinking.

"There is a difference between having rights and enjoying those rights. In most countries there is still a big gap between human rights in theory and in practice." Source

Simply because they are not being practiced doesn't make them go away. I still have a right to privacy, no matter how much the government spies on me. If the idea of rights can disappear when they are violated, then no one but rich old white heterosexual men would ever have any rights, ever. And considering your track record, I doubt that's the kind of world you believe in or want to create.

 

There is a difference between enjoying those rights and/or wanting and needing those rights. In a Western democracy, where we've got food on store shelves, income to provide pretty houses and lots of interesting fashions to cover our backsides, it's very easy to think that our "rights" are "Universal".

 

In a place where one struggles to find food, has little or no shelter, barely enough clothing to stay warm, it is entirely another matter. These people are often more concerned about where their next meal is coming from, or if they will ever have fresh drinking water, than having concerns about their "right to privacy", or any other "right" deemed "universal". These notions of "Universal Human Rights" are merely luxuries, afforded to those who have the free time to employ and otherwise enjoy them.

 

Ask a starving man if he'd rather eat (and do what you tell him) or vote and exercise his Universal Human Right – which do you think he will choose? If you think he will choose the latter, then you're even more out of touch with the greater realities of what goes on this world than I originally suspected.

 

China is many things, but a third world country it is not. And no, I'm not so "out of touch with the greater realities of what goes on this world" to think that lack of food or shelter aren't problems in China. A person you described living in China would be far in the minority, especially in urban areas. So to expect basic human decencies to be upheld in one of the largest economies in the world isn't exactly a stretch.

[/hide]

 

My point was not merely limited to China. I was merely proving that "Universal Human Rights" is a luxury that not everyone wants or can afford.

 

If you'd like, we could discuss the concept of, say, "Unversal Human Rights" as opposed to China's concept of communism. You'd find, in many ways, that there is a certain dichotomy that, interestingly enough, doesn't make the whole "Universal Human Rights" option out to be a whole lot better.

 

But that'd be taking the thread off-topic, and I'd end up being banned for trolling ... :unsure:

 

[hide]

There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure – go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen – neither is it within its power. That said – if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

And what is this article for if not a rallying point to try and change Chinese policies? This was written, posted, and then re-posted here in an effort to make the lives of Chinese citizens better, and since you agree that internet activism can achieve great things why are you so cynical about this whole thing?

[/hide]

 

As I pointed out. There's a whole list of atrocities that are uniquely China's own burden to bear – and there's issues that one should get wild about and make a huge fuss over.

 

This isn't one them. Sorry.

Edited by ForsakenMage
Wall of quotes now in hide tags.

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As I pointed out. There's a whole list of atrocities that are uniquely China's own burden to bear and there's issues that one should get wild about and make a huge fuss over.

This isn't one them. Sorry.

 

 

Why do you get to dictate what is and isn't an important issue? why should something you find important be considered important when others may find it pointless?

 

If you find it pointless to get concerned about these actions, ignore them. Part of this freedom which is being denied for these people is the choice to to express opinions and concerns about whatever we choose. This is something we have. I find it quite arrogant that you think just because you find it un-important and funny, other people should too.

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I can see where it may sound amusing that someone is being forced to play a game. However, the underlying circumstances don't make it funny. I honestly believe that's where some people are missing the point.

 

What the prisoners are doing is forced, regulated monotonous game play. Not running around questing and calling people morons for having a different opinion than you. And most likely not having fun. It may not seem to be in line with what some of you believe to be torture, but if this were happening in the United States you can be sure there would be people filing claims with Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA).

 

Varicose veins anyone? You might know them as spider veins, although spider veins are much smaller. Varicose veins appear on the surface of your skin when blood begins to pool in along areas in the vein. Your veins control blood volume in your body, and as blood begins to pool in your veins, it stretches and the vein is literally screaming for help (i.e. the thing you might know as pain). These vessels are NOT meant to stretch at all. This occurs quite commonly in those who stand or sit for long periods of time. (Source)

 

Another health hazard? Let's consider the eyes. Several studies state that the amount of time spent doing near-work can influence the progression of myopia (nearsightedness). One study in particular specified that the distance and amount of continuous work done were important factors for this issue. (Source) As you become more nearsighted, you have a higher chance of having retinal detachment. For those who don't know, the retina is a light-sensitive layer of tissue in the eye that sends visual messages through the optic nerve to the brain. When the retina begins to tear or break away from its normal position in the eye, vision begins to deteriorate, and if not treated soon can lead to permanent blindness. (Source)

 

I'm sorry, but if forcing bodily harm, or risk of, onto someone does not constitute a single qualification for torture, then I don't know what torture is. Yes they are prisoners, and we can say that they're getting what they deserved and that if they didn't commit crimes to begin with they would not be in that situation. Does it make it right though? I really don't think so. Plus I really don't think that playing games in the fashion they are constitutes "re-education."

 

Perhaps the prisoners are not sleep deprived, but I honestly would feel exhausted if I were to go through hard physical labor during the day and then playing video games for twelve hours monotonously. You can laugh and say, "Oh hey, you're sitting down playing games. Not that hard." Maybe if you were doing the same task over and over again for twelve hours without any sort of interaction with the rest of the game mechanic other than the one you're using to "gold farm" you'd think twice.

 

Like I said, I can see the hilarity in this, but the underlying circumstances don't make me laugh.

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For one thing, the United Nations does not and cannot enforce any Universal Human Rights.

 

I'd concede this to an extent in that they have little military power to stop offenders (See: Darfur); but saying that they are completely unable to support human rights is hyperbolic (For an example see here.)

 

"Support" and "enforce" are two entirely different things.

"Because I could use the intergovernmental clout of the U.N. to win asylum permission, disembarkation permission to get the various ministries concerned to get ships into the port to allow refugees on board to allow them temporary shelter in hospitals and in camps in Singapore." --From my source about a UN official using it's power and connections in order to "enforce" Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of HR. Sorry the words I chose were not completely interchangeable with yours, but they do bear enough resemblance to carry my argument. Now moving on from the Topicality...

 

 

You're trying to swathe an awfully WIDE GAP between "support" and "enforce" here, and you know it. Is providing relief to those seeking assistance/comfort/asylum "enforcement" by the U.N.?

 

No. No it isn't.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/enforce, yes they can have varied meaning and connotations but they can't be THAT dissimilar if they're synonyms. Further, it wasn't just the UN providing the refugees with services. He used connections to force the government to provide basic health care to the refugees; I don't know what more you want than a show of force to consider an action to be enforcing.

 

 

As for the other, "Universal Human Rights" are neither "Universal" nor are they "Rights". Sure, there's a lovely idea that every human life should exist under some form of guidance under which all people should be governed -- but that's merely wishful thinking.

"There is a difference between having rights and enjoying those rights. In most countries there is still a big gap between human rights in theory and in practice." Source

Simply because they are not being practiced doesn't make them go away. I still have a right to privacy, no matter how much the government spies on me. If the idea of rights can disappear when they are violated, then no one but rich old white heterosexual men would ever have any rights, ever. And considering your track record, I doubt that's the kind of world you believe in or want to create.

 

There is a difference between enjoying those rights and/or wanting and needing those rights. In a Western democracy, where we've got food on store shelves, income to provide pretty houses and lots of interesting fashions to cover our backsides, it's very easy to think that our "rights" are "Universal".

 

In a place where one struggles to find food, has little or no shelter, barely enough clothing to stay warm, it is entirely another matter. These people are often more concerned about where their next meal is coming from, or if they will ever have fresh drinking water, than having concerns about their "right to privacy", or any other "right" deemed "universal". These notions of "Universal Human Rights" are merely luxuries, afforded to those who have the free time to employ and otherwise enjoy them.

 

Ask a starving man if he'd rather eat (and do what you tell him) or vote and exercise his Universal Human Right – which do you think he will choose? If you think he will choose the latter, then you're even more out of touch with the greater realities of what goes on this world than I originally suspected.

 

China is many things, but a third world country it is not. And no, I'm not so "out of touch with the greater realities of what goes on this world" to think that lack of food or shelter aren't problems in China. A person you described living in China would be far in the minority, especially in urban areas. So to expect basic human decencies to be upheld in one of the largest economies in the world isn't exactly a stretch.

 

 

My point was not merely limited to China. I was merely proving that "Universal Human Rights" is a luxury that not everyone wants or can afford.

 

If you'd like, we could discuss the concept of, say, "Unversal Human Rights" as opposed to China's concept of communism. You'd find, in many ways, that there is a certain dichotomy that, interestingly enough, doesn't make the whole "Universal Human Rights" option out to be a whole lot better.

 

But that'd be taking the thread off-topic, and I'd end up being banned for trolling ... :unsure:

 

I get that you were criticizing it on a broader scale, and yes these things are much harder to implement without a decent infrastructure. But the fact remains that China is capable of providing these rights, but remains unwilling to. I am interested in this dichotomy you're talking about, if you'd feel more open you could just pm me.

 

 

There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure – go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen – neither is it within its power. That said – if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

And what is this article for if not a rallying point to try and change Chinese policies? This was written, posted, and then re-posted here in an effort to make the lives of Chinese citizens better, and since you agree that internet activism can achieve great things why are you so cynical about this whole thing?

 

 

As I pointed out. There's a whole list of atrocities that are uniquely China's own burden to bear – and there's issues that one should get wild about and make a huge fuss over.

 

This isn't one them. Sorry.

I'd hardly consider this "getting wild" over, everything has just become embroiled since you openly mocked torture victims. And as Dan pointed out, why do you get to dictate what is important and what isn't. And further, why shouldn't we add this to the list of China's atrocities? It's one more claim to lay against them.

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I can see where it may sound amusing that someone is being forced to play a game. However, the underlying circumstances don't make it funny. I honestly believe that's where some people are missing the point.

 

What the prisoners are doing is forced, regulated monotonous game play. Not running around questing and calling people morons for having a different opinion than you. And most likely not having fun. It may not seem to be in line with what some of you believe to be torture, but if this were happening in the United States you can be sure there would be people filing claims with Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA).

 

Varicose veins anyone? You might know them as spider veins, although spider veins are much smaller. Varicose veins appear on the surface of your skin when blood begins to pool in along areas in the vein. Your veins control blood volume in your body, and as blood begins to pool in your veins, it stretches and the vein is literally screaming for help (i.e. the thing you might know as pain). These vessels are NOT meant to stretch at all. This occurs quite commonly in those who stand or sit for long periods of time. (Source)

 

Another health hazard? Let's consider the eyes. Several studies state that the amount of time spent doing near-work can influence the progression of myopia (nearsightedness). One study in particular specified that the distance and amount of continuous work done were important factors for this issue. (Source) As you become more nearsighted, you have a higher chance of having retinal detachment. For those who don't know, the retina is a light-sensitive layer of tissue in the eye that sends visual messages through the optic nerve to the brain. When the retina begins to tear or break away from its normal position in the eye, vision begins to deteriorate, and if not treated soon can lead to permanent blindness. (Source)

 

I'm sorry, but if forcing bodily harm, or risk of, onto someone does not constitute a single qualification for torture, then I don't know what torture is. Yes they are prisoners, and we can say that they're getting what they deserved and that if they didn't commit crimes to begin with they would not be in that situation. Does it make it right though? I really don't think so. Plus I really don't think that playing games in the fashion they are constitutes "re-education."

 

Perhaps the prisoners are not sleep deprived, but I honestly would feel exhausted if I were to go through hard physical labor during the day and then playing video games for twelve hours monotonously. You can laugh and say, "Oh hey, you're sitting down playing games. Not that hard." Maybe if you were doing the same task over and over again for twelve hours without any sort of interaction with the rest of the game mechanic other than the one you're using to "gold farm" you'd think twice.

 

Like I said, I can see the hilarity in this, but the underlying circumstances don't make me laugh.

 

 

I agree 100%

 

I can't imagine the torture of it all. When I first read this, I didn't laugh at all. I immediately felt sorry for those prisoners.

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For one thing, the United Nations does not and cannot enforce any Universal Human Rights.

I'd concede this to an extent in that they have little military power to stop offenders (See: Darfur); but saying that they are completely unable to support human rights is hyperbolic (For an example see here.)

"Support" and "enforce" are two entirely different things.

"Because I could use the intergovernmental clout of the U.N. to win asylum permission, disembarkation permission to get the various ministries concerned to get ships into the port to allow refugees on board to allow them temporary shelter in hospitals and in camps in Singapore." --From my source about a UN official using it's power and connections in order to "enforce" Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of HR. Sorry the words I chose were not completely interchangeable with yours, but they do bear enough resemblance to carry my argument. Now moving on from the Topicality...

 

 

You're trying to swathe an awfully WIDE GAP between "support" and "enforce" here, and you know it. Is providing relief to those seeking assistance/comfort/asylum "enforcement" by the U.N.?

 

No. No it isn't.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/enforce, yes they can have varied meaning and connotations but they can't be THAT dissimilar if they're synonyms. Further, it wasn't just the UN providing the refugees with services. He used connections to force the government to provide basic health care to the refugees; I don't know what more you want than a show of force to consider an action to be enforcing.

 

That's still not enforcement but rather a temporary relief. Theoretically, you could argue that, say, peacekeeping is likewise an enforcement of the U.N. mandate but it isn't. All they can do is keep parties at arm's-length from each other and hope they learn to get along.

 

You're still not enforcing "Universal Human Rights" though you're merely offering a reprieve from the current conditions.

 

 

As for the other, "Universal Human Rights" are neither "Universal" nor are they "Rights". Sure, there's a lovely idea that every human life should exist under some form of guidance under which all people should be governed -- but that's merely wishful thinking.

"There is a difference between having rights and enjoying those rights. In most countries there is still a big gap between human rights in theory and in practice." Source

Simply because they are not being practiced doesn't make them go away. I still have a right to privacy, no matter how much the government spies on me. If the idea of rights can disappear when they are violated, then no one but rich old white heterosexual men would ever have any rights, ever. And considering your track record, I doubt that's the kind of world you believe in or want to create.

 

There is a difference between enjoying those rights and/or wanting and needing those rights. In a Western democracy, where we've got food on store shelves, income to provide pretty houses and lots of interesting fashions to cover our backsides, it's very easy to think that our "rights" are "Universal".

 

In a place where one struggles to find food, has little or no shelter, barely enough clothing to stay warm, it is entirely another matter. These people are often more concerned about where their next meal is coming from, or if they will ever have fresh drinking water, than having concerns about their "right to privacy", or any other "right" deemed "universal". These notions of "Universal Human Rights" are merely luxuries, afforded to those who have the free time to employ and otherwise enjoy them.

 

Ask a starving man if he'd rather eat (and do what you tell him) or vote and exercise his Universal Human Right which do you think he will choose? If you think he will choose the latter, then you're even more out of touch with the greater realities of what goes on this world than I originally suspected.

 

China is many things, but a third world country it is not. And no, I'm not so "out of touch with the greater realities of what goes on this world" to think that lack of food or shelter aren't problems in China. A person you described living in China would be far in the minority, especially in urban areas. So to expect basic human decencies to be upheld in one of the largest economies in the world isn't exactly a stretch.

 

 

My point was not merely limited to China. I was merely proving that "Universal Human Rights" is a luxury that not everyone wants or can afford.

 

If you'd like, we could discuss the concept of, say, "Unversal Human Rights" as opposed to China's concept of communism. You'd find, in many ways, that there is a certain dichotomy that, interestingly enough, doesn't make the whole "Universal Human Rights" option out to be a whole lot better.

 

But that'd be taking the thread off-topic, and I'd end up being banned for trolling ... :unsure:

 

I get that you were criticizing it on a broader scale, and yes these things are much harder to implement without a decent infrastructure. But the fact remains that China is capable of providing these rights, but remains unwilling to. I am interested in this dichotomy you're talking about, if you'd feel more open you could just pm me.

 

I'll add it here under a spoiler:

 

 

 

Under Western theory, the beneficiary of "human rights" is the individual, who's rights are to be asserted and protected against authority.

 

In Communist China, the beneficiary is the society as a whole. As such, emphasis is placed on "economic" rights such as access to health care, adequate nutrition, education at all levels, and guaranteed employment, which the Chinese consider to be the more important "rights" without which, political and civil rights are meaningless.

 

As such, trying to judge China in terms of these so-called Universal Human Rights doesn't necessarily work the way one would want it. To them, the benefit of the whole of society is of primary importance to that the individual.

 

 

 

There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen neither is it within its power. That said if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

And what is this article for if not a rallying point to try and change Chinese policies? This was written, posted, and then re-posted here in an effort to make the lives of Chinese citizens better, and since you agree that internet activism can achieve great things why are you so cynical about this whole thing?

 

 

As I pointed out. There's a whole list of atrocities that are uniquely China's own burden to bear and there's issues that one should get wild about and make a huge fuss over.

 

This isn't one them. Sorry.

I'd hardly consider this "getting wild" over, everything has just become embroiled since you openly mocked torture victims. And as Dan pointed out, why do you get to dictate what is important and what isn't. And further, why shouldn't we add this to the list of China's atrocities? It's one more claim to lay against them.

 

"One more claim ..."

 

Is it? On the grand scale of claims, is it one more?

 

All through this debate, you and others have been trying to assert that this punishment is some form of torture, based largely off, what I can plainly see, as a diversion from the actual facts. Sure, the writer tried to make the article seem meatier somewhat exciting but the actual plugged in information from the original source doesn't back up the half-baked claims that the story purports to relate.

 

In the end, you're still left asking the same question: is playing video games torture?

 

The answer to which is an unequivocal "no" ...

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In the end, you're still left asking the same question: is playing video games torture?

 

The answer to which is an unequivocal "no" ...

 

 

Again, what seems like the hundredth time you have ignored so much.

 

I will simply repeat what I said last time which you conveniently ignored:

 

 

And actually -- no it boils down as to whether one considers 12-hour shifts of playing WoW as "torture" -- but you digress ...

 

So now you are actively ignoring everything everybody is saying and which is contained within the original article?

 

They are NOT playing WoW in a 12 hour shift.

 

They ARE being forced to grind the game for 12 hours with punishments including beating if they do not do it to a certain standard, which could lead to physical and mental harm.

 

I'm disappointed that you cannot see the difference. Until you see that, I can't see any reason for anybody to continue discussing it with you.

 

 

I also point you to Forsakenmage's post which covered the same things but in much more detail.

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[spoiler=Oh god the quote train]

 

I'd concede this to an extent in that they have little military power to stop offenders (See: Darfur); but saying that they are completely unable to support human rights is hyperbolic (For an example see here.)

"Support" and "enforce" are two entirely different things.

"Because I could use the intergovernmental clout of the U.N. to win asylum permission, disembarkation permission to get the various ministries concerned to get ships into the port to allow refugees on board to allow them temporary shelter in hospitals and in camps in Singapore." --From my source about a UN official using it's power and connections in order to "enforce" Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of HR. Sorry the words I chose were not completely interchangeable with yours, but they do bear enough resemblance to carry my argument. Now moving on from the Topicality...

 

 

You're trying to swathe an awfully WIDE GAP between "support" and "enforce" here, and you know it. Is providing relief to those seeking assistance/comfort/asylum "enforcement" by the U.N.?

 

No. No it isn't.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/enforce, yes they can have varied meaning and connotations but they can't be THAT dissimilar if they're synonyms. Further, it wasn't just the UN providing the refugees with services. He used connections to force the government to provide basic health care to the refugees; I don't know what more you want than a show of force to consider an action to be enforcing.

 

 

That's still not enforcement but rather a temporary relief. Theoretically, you could argue that, say, peacekeeping is likewise an enforcement of the U.N. mandate but it isn't. All they can do is keep parties at arm's-length from each other and hope they learn to get along.

 

You're still not enforcing "Universal Human Rights" though you're merely offering a reprieve from the current conditions.

 

If those conditions are extraordinarily worse in terms of Human Rights, I would consider them enforcing those rights even in the worst circumstances. And from what I can tell your idea of international enforcement basically boils down to military interventionism, and under that definition I wouldn't want any international organization to have broad enforcing powers. But enforcement through diplomacy or sanctions can also be effective; political power doesn't have to grow from the barrel of a gun.

 

[spoiler=Oh god the quote train]

 

"There is a difference between having rights and enjoying those rights. In most countries there is still a big gap between human rights in theory and in practice." Source

Simply because they are not being practiced doesn't make them go away. I still have a right to privacy, no matter how much the government spies on me. If the idea of rights can disappear when they are violated, then no one but rich old white heterosexual men would ever have any rights, ever. And considering your track record, I doubt that's the kind of world you believe in or want to create.

 

There is a difference between enjoying those rights and/or wanting and needing those rights. In a Western democracy, where we've got food on store shelves, income to provide pretty houses and lots of interesting fashions to cover our backsides, it's very easy to think that our "rights" are "Universal".

 

In a place where one struggles to find food, has little or no shelter, barely enough clothing to stay warm, it is entirely another matter. These people are often more concerned about where their next meal is coming from, or if they will ever have fresh drinking water, than having concerns about their "right to privacy", or any other "right" deemed "universal". These notions of "Universal Human Rights" are merely luxuries, afforded to those who have the free time to employ and otherwise enjoy them.

 

Ask a starving man if he'd rather eat (and do what you tell him) or vote and exercise his Universal Human Right which do you think he will choose? If you think he will choose the latter, then you're even more out of touch with the greater realities of what goes on this world than I originally suspected.

 

China is many things, but a third world country it is not. And no, I'm not so "out of touch with the greater realities of what goes on this world" to think that lack of food or shelter aren't problems in China. A person you described living in China would be far in the minority, especially in urban areas. So to expect basic human decencies to be upheld in one of the largest economies in the world isn't exactly a stretch.

 

 

My point was not merely limited to China. I was merely proving that "Universal Human Rights" is a luxury that not everyone wants or can afford.

 

If you'd like, we could discuss the concept of, say, "Unversal Human Rights" as opposed to China's concept of communism. You'd find, in many ways, that there is a certain dichotomy that, interestingly enough, doesn't make the whole "Universal Human Rights" option out to be a whole lot better.

 

But that'd be taking the thread off-topic, and I'd end up being banned for trolling ... :unsure:

 

I get that you were criticizing it on a broader scale, and yes these things are much harder to implement without a decent infrastructure. But the fact remains that China is capable of providing these rights, but remains unwilling to. I am interested in this dichotomy you're talking about, if you'd feel more open you could just pm me.

 

 

I'll add it here under a spoiler:

 

 

 

Under Western theory, the beneficiary of "human rights" is the individual, who's rights are to be asserted and protected against authority.

 

In Communist China, the beneficiary is the society as a whole. As such, emphasis is placed on "economic" rights such as access to health care, adequate nutrition, education at all levels, and guaranteed employment, which the Chinese consider to be the more important "rights" without which, political and civil rights are meaningless.

 

As such, trying to judge China in terms of these so-called Universal Human Rights doesn't necessarily work the way one would want it. To them, the benefit of the whole of society is of primary importance to that the individual.

 

Considering that the man in question was trying to root out corruption, something that is a net negative to any society, it's hard to argue that the man's Universal Rights wouldn't also affect society in a positive manner. Rights for the individual may be a detriment to the government, but the government is not the same thing as society.

 

[spoiler=Oh god the quote train]

 

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen neither is it within its power. That said if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

And what is this article for if not a rallying point to try and change Chinese policies? This was written, posted, and then re-posted here in an effort to make the lives of Chinese citizens better, and since you agree that internet activism can achieve great things why are you so cynical about this whole thing?

 

 

As I pointed out. There's a whole list of atrocities that are uniquely China's own burden to bear and there's issues that one should get wild about and make a huge fuss over.

 

This isn't one them. Sorry.

I'd hardly consider this "getting wild" over, everything has just become embroiled since you openly mocked torture victims. And as Dan pointed out, why do you get to dictate what is important and what isn't. And further, why shouldn't we add this to the list of China's atrocities? It's one more claim to lay against them.

 

 

"One more claim ..."

 

Is it? On the grand scale of claims, is it one more?

 

All through this debate, you and others have been trying to assert that this punishment is some form of torture, based largely off, what I can plainly see, as a diversion from the actual facts. Sure, the writer tried to make the article seem meatier somewhat exciting but the actual plugged in information from the original source doesn't back up the half-baked claims that the story purports to relate.

 

In the end, you're still left asking the same question: is playing video games torture?

 

The answer to which is an unequivocal "no" ...

 

Yes it is one more, it'd be better to make a marginal claim than not too. And you've still been ignoring something: they aren't playing video games. Playing by definition means: to engage in activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose. They are interacting with world of warcraft to make real world money, that's a practical purpose. And on the individual level he's complying so he won't be beaten, and I'd call that a rather serious purpose. Perhaps this is a problem of language, where the only thing we can conceivably do with a video "game" is to play with it when that is clearly not the case.

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corrupt prison officials, corrupt local officials, corrupt party members.... this is china, EVERYBODY is corrupt.

In communist China, the government corrupts you!

In China, the Triads corrupt all of them. :lol:

 

It's sad, but what can you do about it...

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I believe that is pointless debating with Blyaunte, I have argued with people like her in the past and I can tell you there is no point trying to continue a discussion with her. This discussion will continue to go around in circles because Blyaunte is delusional enough to believe that her OPINION is the only one worth considering. This is why I believe it is pointless to get into any sort of discussion with narrow minded people like her.

I do not think she is a troll, she is just too stubborn to admit that she maybe wrong and is clinging to a losing argument to save face.

 

Seriously, good luck to anyone trying to convince Blyaunte that her opinion is flawed. If she has not shown any sort of open mindedness in 11 pages of this discussion, she isn't likely to show it at all.

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Look, I'm not going to lie, there is nothing you can say to me that will make me believe that goldfarming in Chinese prisons is even on the top 100 list of things that needs to be fixed in this world right now. Anyone who thinks so should watch CNN for a few days. Plus, we should be proud of China, in all their long history of human rights abuse, this is a far cry from the "great leap forward" which caused the deaths of over twenty million Chinese people, or the "great proletarian revolution" which decapitated any form of educated leadership outside the communist party.

 

Seriously, if this is the worst story you've heard all week, you live in an extreme bubble.

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Look, I'm not going to lie, there is nothing you can say to me that will make me believe that goldfarming in Chinese prisons is even on the top 100 list of things that needs to be fixed in this world right now. Anyone who thinks so should watch CNN for a few days. Plus, we should be proud of China, in all their long history of human rights abuse, this is a far cry from the "great leap forward" which caused the deaths of over twenty million Chinese people, or the "great proletarian revolution" which decapitated any form of educated leadership outside the communist party.

 

Seriously, if this is the worst story you've heard all week, you live in an extreme bubble.

Well, at least you're not laughing at them.

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I might've missed it, but I personally didn't say it was on the top 100 things to worry about. But it doesn't make it something that we can't discuss and have emotions toward.

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I might've missed it, but I personally didn't say it was on the top 100 things to worry about. But it doesn't make it something that we can't discuss and have emotions toward.

Disproving something you just made up is easier than disproving a real remark. :razz:

 

Imo Blyaunte is either trolling or suffering from severe tunnel vision. #-o

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Look, I'm not going to lie, there is nothing you can say to me that will make me believe that goldfarming in Chinese prisons is even on the top 100 list of things that needs to be fixed in this world right now. Anyone who thinks so should watch CNN for a few days. Plus, we should be proud of China, in all their long history of human rights abuse, this is a far cry from the "great leap forward" which caused the deaths of over twenty million Chinese people, or the "great proletarian revolution" which decapitated any form of educated leadership outside the communist party.

 

Seriously, if this is the worst story you've heard all week, you live in an extreme bubble.

 

A goal for our governments should be the end of human rights abuses that go on in China, the gold farming is just another subsection of those abuses.

 

But the point in this news article, as I've said before, is that when you're buying gold from these Chinese gold farmers, you're not doing it from some guy trying to get through college. You're actively funding some guy getting his ass beaten with a PVC pipe because he didn't make quota the previous week.

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