China Using Prisoners To Farm MMOs

[sees_all1]

Apparently two -- there's the foolish notion that they worked people 24/7, which is not supported elsewhere in the article

"We kept playing until we could barely see things"

 

-- and there's the correct idea that they split work into 12-hour shifts, some working day shift, and others night shift, at varying tasks ...

which is not supported elsewhere in the article.

[Master_Smither]

Now you assume that "the camp" is the the prison facility as a whole, and not just the goldfarming section of it. My point of view is based on the first paragraph in the article. Where is your point originated?

 

Oh yay! A new "angle". :rolleyes:

 

Shall we argue about your definition of "camp" now? Or shall we merely agree to disagree that this is something "lost in translation" as related from the original source?

You never answered my question. I am curious.

 

(S)he doesn't respond to a lot of arguments because there is no valid response besides his or her usual "read the article", which was used against him or her at the beginning because of the shear ignorance of his or her posts.

 

I still don't comprehend where you got the notion people work 24/7. They'd die within the week if they did. I'm going to eat lunch now and I'd love to see where this argument goes. I get the feeling you're either a really bad troll or someone with a dying point that cannot be supported by the proper facts in the article. I'm hoping the former, however.

[Micromal]

[hide]

Now you assume that "the camp" is the the prison facility as a whole, and not just the goldfarming section of it. My point of view is based on the first paragraph in the article. Where is your point originated?

 

Oh yay! A new "angle". :rolleyes:

 

Shall we argue about your definition of "camp" now? Or shall we merely agree to disagree that this is something "lost in translation" as related from the original source?

You never answered my question. I am curious.

 

(S)he doesn't respond to a lot of arguments because there is no valid response besides his or her usual "read the article", which was used against him or her at the beginning because of the shear ignorance of his or her posts.

 

I still don't comprehend where you got the notion people work 24/7. They'd die within the week if they did. I'm going to eat lunch now and I'd love to see where this argument goes. I get the feeling you're either a really bad troll or someone with a dying point that cannot be supported by the proper facts in the article. I'm hoping the former, however.

[/hide]

Yes, I'm curious to see how this goes. Also, if the 24/7 comment was pointed at me (which I don't really think, I just want to cover it), I haven't once said nor will say that they definately worked 24/7, my point is that goldfarming was an addition to physical labor, and that they no doubt had little sleep.

Edited June 2, 2011 by ForsakenMage
Wall of quotes now in hide tags.

[Kaida23]

For the sake of argument, let's say they did keep them to a 12-hour shift only. Have you ever been forced to do anything for 12 hours straight? I don't mean forced in the sense of "I need to get this term paper done" or "my boss will yell at me if I don't finish this proposal", but forced as in "if I don't farm enough gold I'll get beaten with a pipe". Neither have I (thank Saradomin). As much fun as playing a video game for 12 hours might sound, if you were being made to do the same activity over and over again with the threat of being beaten if you didn't perform you would be stressed and worried the entire time and after a while that would start to wear on you both physically and mentally.

 

Not all torture is physical in nature.

 

"We worked 12-hour shifts at camp."

:-s

 

I'm sorry, you seem to have missed the point of what I was saying. I wasn't arguing the 12-hour shifts, merely how others might interpret it. I was, however, pointing out how even if that 12 hours was spent playing a video game, something you have repeatedly laughed at, could be considered torture.

 

Or are you just going to spam the same insipid nonsense repeatedly?

Have you been reading your own posts?

[Stev]

Fricken drama-queens – every one of you ...

Welcome to TIF, may I take your order?

 

Siding with Blyaunte here, it's [bleep]ing hilarious. Don't like it, shouldn't have [bleep]ed up to get put in jail. For what ever the reasons, although they may seem ridiculous here, they know they law and what could happen had they been pushed / broken. IDC if they got 5 years for stealing a God damned penny candy, or for petitioning blah blah blah; They knew the risks.

 

*Grabs the fire extinguisher and a fire blanket.* Go ahead TIF, give it your best. :).

[timmmmm83]

Siding with Blyaunte here, it's [bleep]ing hilarious. Don't like it, shouldn't have [bleep]ed up to get put in jail. For what ever the reasons, although they may seem ridiculous here, they know they law and what could happen had they been pushed / broken. IDC if they got 5 years for stealing a God damned penny candy, or for petitioning blah blah blah; They knew the risks.

Taking a stand against a corrupt/totalitarian government deserves forced labour as punishment. Really? <_<

 

(You do know nazi campleaders used the exact same argument in their defense, we followed the law/rules)

[Blyaunte]

Now you assume that "the camp" is the the prison facility as a whole, and not just the goldfarming section of it. My point of view is based on the first paragraph in the article. Where is your point originated?

 

Oh yay! A new "angle". :rolleyes:

 

Shall we argue about your definition of "camp" now? Or shall we merely agree to disagree that this is something "lost in translation" as related from the original source?

You never answered my question. I am curious.

 

Have you tried, oh I don't know, READING THE ARTICLE?

 

"Memories from his detention at Jixi re-education-through-labour camp ..."

[Stev]

Siding with Blyaunte here, it's [bleep]ing hilarious. Don't like it, shouldn't have [bleep]ed up to get put in jail. For what ever the reasons, although they may seem ridiculous here, they know they law and what could happen had they been pushed / broken. IDC if they got 5 years for stealing a God damned penny candy, or for petitioning blah blah blah; They knew the risks.

Taking a stand against a corrupt/totalitarian government deserves forced labour as punishment. Really? <_<

 

(You do know nazi campleaders used the exact same argument in their defense, we followed the law/rules)

Did he not know the dangers and the risks of taking such a stance? It doesn't matter what the law, or what the location; me, you, or him, are not above it and should obey it.

 

I can assure you that you won't change my mind on this. I am just as much, if not more, stubborn then Ms.Blyaunte here. Not only am I stubborn, but I really don't give a [cabbage]. :).

 

Work during the day followed by 12 hours of gaming? No sleep? Where do I sign up?

[Kaida23]

"Memories from his detention at Jixi re-education-through-labour camp ..."

"...in Heilongjiang province from 2004 still haunt Liu." Haunt. Sounds like a wonderful place to pass the time. What's your point, exactly? That because they don't call it a "prison" that it's some kind of country club?

[timmmmm83]

Did he not know the dangers and the risks of taking such a stance? It doesn't matter what the law, or what the location; me, you, or him, are not above it and should obey it.

 

I can assure you that you won't change my mind on this. I am just as much, if not more, stubborn then Ms.Blyaunte here. Not only am I stubborn, but I really don't give a [cabbage]. :).

 

Work during the day followed by 12 hours of gaming? No sleep? Where do I sign up?

China, I guess. :wink:

 

Obstacles:

1) getting there

2) sign a petition

 

-> free WOW-membership! :razz:

 

(if it runs out, you can skip 1)

[Danqazmlp]

Fricken drama-queens – every one of you ...

Welcome to TIF, may I take your order?

 

Siding with Blyaunte here, it's [bleep]ing hilarious. Don't like it, shouldn't have [bleep]ed up to get put in jail. For what ever the reasons, although they may seem ridiculous here, they know they law and what could happen had they been pushed / broken. IDC if they got 5 years for stealing a God damned penny candy, or for petitioning blah blah blah; They knew the risks.

 

*Grabs the fire extinguisher and a fire blanket.* Go ahead TIF, give it your best. :).

 

I'm glad people who think that way are in a vast minority here as it is a disgusting viewpoint. Spending years in jail for petitioning against a corrupt (as seen by this and countless other instances) regime should not result in forced labour and harsh punishment.

 

Freedom of speech can sometime bring some very negative views to light in the Western world such as very concentrated religious intolerance and hate, but without it, the peoples of China and countries under their rule like Tibet have no chance at a 'free' life, or the ability to attain it.

 

By this stage I just think blyaunte should admit when she is wrong and step down, when shown multiple times in this thread that being forced to play a game for 12 hours, on top of manual labour, which has the possibility to lead to psychological trauma from sleep deprivation, as well as physical harm from punishment and game-related issues is torture. It boils down to being forced, against your will to do something which can have a severe negative effect on your person.

[aspeeder]

You people tried to prove that China's inhumanity was just terrible and China should be punished and I refuted that. You've dropped THAT argument because you know you've lost that one.

Hi again, getting back from a regular-ish sleep schedule and a morning class, so...back to business.

 

4. Finally, for those armchair International Politics experts trying to exert certain concepts related to the operations of United Nations with respect to the employment of "Universal Human Rights", you may want to better educate yourselves before you engage in these types of discussions.

Starting classy with an ad hominem attack, but fair enough I'll continue finding sources.

 

For one thing, the United Nations does not and cannot enforce any Universal Human Rights.

 

I'd concede this to an extent in that they have little military power to stop offenders (See: Darfur); but saying that they are completely unable to support human rights is hyperbolic (For an example see here.)

 

As for the other, "Universal Human Rights" are neither "Universal" nor are they "Rights". Sure, there's a lovely idea that every human life should exist under some form of guidance under which all people should be governed -- but that's merely wishful thinking.

"There is a difference between having rights and enjoying those rights. In most countries there is still a big gap between human rights in theory and in practice." Source

Simply because they are not being practiced doesn't make them go away. I still have a right to privacy, no matter how much the government spies on me. If the idea of rights can disappear when they are violated, then no one but rich old white heterosexual men would ever have any rights, ever. And considering your track record, I doubt that's the kind of world you believe in or want to create.

 

 

There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

EDIT: While I'm waiting I'll give a crack at this

Did he not know the dangers and the risks of taking such a stance? It doesn't matter what the law, or what the location; me, you, or him, are not above it and should obey it.

I'm not sure if you understand how totalitarian governments work but they're not very transparent. Laws are subject to the whims of rulers, can be changed without the willful consent or representation of the governed, and can be bypassed by the government at any moment. There is no logical way for him to necessarily know that this would get him thrown in jail (Though he had to have known there were risks involved, I agree). Stalin kept arrests semi-random to keep the public fearful, paranoid, and untrusting; it would seem China does as well.

 

I can assure you that you won't change my mind on this. I am just as much, if not more, stubborn then Ms.Blyaunte here. Not only am I stubborn, but I really don't give a [cabbage]. :).

Ok...then you're clearly a troll. If you didn't care at all you wouldn't post, unless you gained enjoyment from pissing me off; hence a troll.

 

Work during the day followed by 12 hours of gaming? No sleep? Where do I sign up?

I hear you can get in if you petition.

[Kaida23]

Well said. =D>

[Blyaunte]

"Memories from his detention at Jixi re-education-through-labour camp ..."

"...in Heilongjiang province from 2004 still haunt Liu." Haunt. Sounds like a wonderful place to pass the time. What's your point, exactly? That because they don't call it a "prison" that it's some kind of country club?

 

Ever try reading the original post and my response to it? You may find it enlightening. Go on. Give it a try ... :rolleyes:

[Blyaunte]

By this stage I just think blyaunte lacks the maturity to admit when she is wrong and step down, when shown multiple times in this thread that being forced to play a game for 12 hours, on top of manual labour, which has the possibility to lead to psychological trauma from sleep deprivation, as well as physical harm from punishment and game-related issues is torture. It boils down to being forced, against your will to do something which can have a severe negative effect on your person.

Did you just play the "maturity troll card"?

 

 

Tsk. Tsk. And a forum mod too ...

 

And actually -- no it boils down as to whether one considers 12-hour shifts of playing WoW as "torture" -- but you digress ...

[999134]

Tipit really where bloating a load of hot air when they set up that trolling rule weren't they

[Danqazmlp]

And actually -- no it boils down as to whether one considers 12-hour shifts of playing WoW as "torture" -- but you digress ...

 

So now you are actively ignoring everything everybody is saying and which is contained within the original article?

 

They are NOT playing WoW in a 12 hour shift.

 

They ARE being forced to grind the game for 12 hours with punishments including beating if they do not do it to a certain standard, which could lead to physical and mental harm.

 

I'm disappointed that you cannot see the difference. Until you see that, I can't see any reason for anybody to continue discussing it with you.

[TTanT]

[hide]

Now you assume that "the camp" is the the prison facility as a whole, and not just the goldfarming section of it. My point of view is based on the first paragraph in the article. Where is your point originated?

 

Oh yay! A new "angle". :rolleyes:

 

Shall we argue about your definition of "camp" now? Or shall we merely agree to disagree that this is something "lost in translation" as related from the original source?

As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells.

 

I'm not sure how many ways there are to interpret that.

 

Apparently two -- there's the foolish notion that they worked people 24/7, which is not supported elsewhere in the article -- and there's the correct idea that they split work into 12-hour shifts, some working day shift, and others night shift, at varying tasks ...

 

Now -- which part of this don't you comprehend? Or are you just going to spam the same insipid nonsense repeatedly?

[/hide]

 

Apparently you didn't even read what he posted.

 

As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells.

 

As many have asked already, where is this mystical aprt of the day between day and night where you can get a full night's sleep in while working through the other two?

 

And your ending snippet really was an instance of the kettle calling the pot black. Spamming the same trolling argument? Wait, what has been your argument against everything posted on the alst three pages, again?

 

It seemed to amount to : "You can't read and you're all idiots and even though everyone else has interpretted this article differently I must be samrter than all of these worthless fools, and when a massive post is made shooting me down I'll simply argue a single paragraph or sentence from it and ignore the other bits that are impossible to go against yet prove me wrong."

Edited June 2, 2011 by ForsakenMage
Wall of quotes now in hide tags.

[Alg]

Work during the day followed by 12 hours of gaming? No sleep? Where do I sign up?

It's all fun and games until you start to hallucinate and/or die of sleep deprivation. Then it's [bleep]ing hilarious. Am I right?

 

Perhaps if you're already spending unhealthy amounts of time on Runescape, as many of you probably are. It's a bit jarring how frequently I hear people ingame talking about how it's 4AM and they'll go to sleep after they finish x level. Or more telling, when I go to sleep and 10 hours later come back to find the same people ingame. And that's voluntary.

 

Imagine ending your day of backbreaking labor by being forced to grind for another 12 hours. Rinse and repeat for as long as possible. That's when it gets to be torture. That's also the part people seem to miss, whether they're trolls or genuinely too stupid to know the difference.

[obfuscator]

Here's an interesting article about the medical effects of sleep deprivation: http://www.end-your-sleep-deprivation.com/effects-of-sleep-deprivation.html

 

And that doesn't even consider forced sleep deprivation.

[Blyaunte]

For one thing, the United Nations does not and cannot enforce any Universal Human Rights.

 

I'd concede this to an extent in that they have little military power to stop offenders (See: Darfur); but saying that they are completely unable to support human rights is hyperbolic (For an example see here.)

 

"Support" and "enforce" are two entirely different things.

 

As for the other, "Universal Human Rights" are neither "Universal" nor are they "Rights". Sure, there's a lovely idea that every human life should exist under some form of guidance under which all people should be governed -- but that's merely wishful thinking.

"There is a difference between having rights and enjoying those rights. In most countries there is still a big gap between human rights in theory and in practice." Source

Simply because they are not being practiced doesn't make them go away. I still have a right to privacy, no matter how much the government spies on me. If the idea of rights can disappear when they are violated, then no one but rich old white heterosexual men would ever have any rights, ever. And considering your track record, I doubt that's the kind of world you believe in or want to create.

 

There is a difference between enjoying those rights and/or wanting and needing those rights. In a Western democracy, where we've got food on store shelves, income to provide pretty houses and lots of interesting fashions to cover our backsides, it's very easy to think that our "rights" are "Universal".

 

In a place where one struggles to find food, has little or no shelter, barely enough clothing to stay warm, it is entirely another matter. These people are often more concerned about where their next meal is coming from, or if they will ever have fresh drinking water, than having concerns about their "right to privacy", or any other "right" deemed "universal". These notions of "Universal Human Rights" are merely luxuries, afforded to those who have the free time to employ and otherwise enjoy them.

 

Ask a starving man if he'd rather eat (and do what you tell him) or vote and exercise his Universal Human Right – which do you think he will choose? If you think he will choose the latter, then you're even more out of touch with the greater realities of what goes on this world than I originally suspected.

 

 

There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure – go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen – neither is it within its power. That said – if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

[sees_all1]

Also to the chinese citizens you knew what was coming for breaking petty crimes

What about petitioning the government because your local government is corrupt?

[Blyaunte]

Here's an interesting article about the medical effects of sleep deprivation: http://www.end-your-sleep-deprivation.com/effects-of-sleep-deprivation.html

 

And that doesn't even consider forced sleep deprivation.

 

No one is arguing that this isnt wrong all were saying is china is a totalitarian form of government who is too powerful to be pushed around by the UN so they can do what they want.

 

Also to the chinese citizens you knew what was coming for breaking petty crimes

 

... and I am arguing that they're misreading the original article and that 12-hour shifts doesn't mean they're working 24/7 and/or sleep deprived ...

 

As such, the entire conversation is laughable.

[TTanT]

There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ...

This is a curious step in logic: just because these countries (Including our own) do not hold to those conditions, doesn't mean they should be expected or demanded to change. So just because some entity is doing something, something which can usually be seen as obviously morally wrong or at least dubious, that doesn't mean others should expect or demand a change. Just because our country right now continues to be homophobic, racist, sexist, islamaphobic etc. we shouldn't do anything and should just be expected to carry on. Wasn't there that whole Civil Rights Movement that hinged on the idea that people can demand equal treatment from their government and actually make gains in the quality of life? Yeah, the world still sucks, and politics often delays these processes, but to say that we cannot demand change from our society is to give up.

 

Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first.

 

It's not within the U.N.'s mandate to make these changes happen neither is it within its power. That said if you WANT to make change happen in China, find a way to get Facebook and Twitter to have a wider audience therein. If the Arab Spring is any example, and I think it is, these social networks are having more affect making change, than anything the U.N.'s managed to do in the past 70 years.

 

I'm not commenting on the rest of your post because I don't like interfering with posts directed at other too much, but:

 

"Sure go ahead -- make all the demands you want. While you're at it, put a pile of poo in one hand and pile of those demands in another, and guess which one will draw China's attention first. "

What the [bleep] is that even supposed to mean?

Yes a pile of crap in someone's hand would draw attention faster than demands (assumably written, if they're being held, as demands alone are incorporeal), but that has nothing to do with anything.

Are you trying to imply that the demands are worth less than fecal matter? If so your comparison is awkwardly phrased and badly executed.

 

And if not, I repeat: What the [bleep] is it supposed to mean, then?

 

 

Anyways, if you're saying demands is worthless, then I'd like to ask you what would have happened if you had never applied for a college.

[sees_all1]

... and I am arguing that they're misreading the original article and that 12-hour shifts doesn't mean they're working 24/7 and/or sleep deprived ...

 

As such, the entire conversation is laughable.

As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells.

and

We kept playing until we could barely see things.

 

Somehow, just somehow connotes to me the idea of sleep deprivation (it appears I'm not alone in this). But I don't care about the semantics of this - I take issue with you laughing at the mistreatment of others.