England Riots

[Zerker_Jane]

Nobody seems to want to acknowledge that if it was truly just about looting it would've been done long before now.

[Giordano]

Why don't rioters EVER burn down government buildings? Bunch of [kitties] I say; the government's the perfect one to blame for their situation.

[Riku3220]

Why don't rioters EVER burn down government buildings? Bunch of [kitties] I say; the government's the perfect one to blame for their situation.

Because government buildings don't have anything worth stealing.

[Zierro]

If they were angry at unemployment, they'd stop burning down and looting small businesses. If they were angry at their socio-economic position, they wouldn't be engaging in criminality - I've not heard of many people able to support their family and improve their lot from prison. These animals are the worst of society, not because of their societal status, but because of how they conduct themselves.

 

This. They're only contributing to a bad stigma around rebellion. If they truly wanted what they claim they are fighting for (less strict government?), they wouldn't pick the most counter-productive means possible.

[Racheya]

My boyfriend's bins got set on fire last night in Salford. I'm going over today and hoping to help with the cleanup in Manchester & Salford if I can. I'm disgusted and alarmed at how much damage has been done to the cities where I intend to build my future.

[Zierro]

If they were angry at unemployment, they'd stop burning down and looting small businesses. If they were angry at their socio-economic position, they wouldn't be engaging in criminality - I've not heard of many people able to support their family and improve their lot from prison. These animals are the worst of society, not because of their societal status, but because of how they conduct themselves.

 

This. They're only contributing to a bad stigma around rebellion. If they truly wanted what they claim they are fighting for (less strict government?), they wouldn't pick the most counter-productive means possible.

On the other hand, these folk are notoriously unintelligent...

 

Yes, there's also that. Sometimes I underestimate how little brain power is required to sleep, eat, and [bleep].

[homer205]

I think most people can agree that the rioters are simply there to loot and feel powerful. I disagree with arguments that the rioters are rebelling against the government for any reason other than because the rioters are stupid, and are using the government as a standard entity to blame. When an opportunity presents itself, as has happened with the first, (slightly more legitimate) protest, and the subsequent media coverage, people will indulge their greedy natures and use the opportunity to loot. This is can be seen with the looting after natural disasters.

 

While I think that the vigilante groups looking to protect their communities are well intentioned, in the long run, they'll cause more problems for the police (assuming that the police choose to pursue it), though considering how stretched the police seem to be at the moment, I hope they don't.

[magekillr]

The protest that occurred after Mark Duggan died WAS a legitimate protest and deserves our support because his family have a right to answers and the police need to be held to account. People using his death as an excuse to loot, vandalize and terrorize has bugger all to do with politics.

 

HOWEVER...I don't see it as a black and white issue. We need to ask ourselves what's in these kids' (and it is mostly young teenagers - mid twenties) heads that they're willing to risk prison for the sake of a new pair of trainers. There's really deeply ingrained societal issues with people coming out of school with no education and no employment prospects. They're just perceiving their lives as school ---> prison and their loyalty is to a gang rather than to wider society or family. We can't excuse their behaviour for one second. Law and order NEEDS to be restored and law abiding people need to feel safe, but we need to understand the deeper reasons of why this is happening because tougher policing on its own won't solve anything; and if it doesn't go hand in hand with reform of the prison system, more investment in schools, job creation etc it will be counter-productive as it will create an 'us against them' mentality. We need to avoid tarring all these kids with the same brush. A 25 year old that commits a pre-meditated violent crime isn't the same as a 12 year old copying his older brothers. A lot of these kids can be reached if the government and society is willing to put the effort in.

 

I think it's got a lot more to do with lack of prospects and inequality rather than real poverty. There's a good welfare system in the UK so these kids aren't really poor by international standards. But, the reason they have these nice trainers and nice phones etc is usually because they're living at home and don't save money. They don't have the mentality of 'I want to move to a nicer area, get a mortgage etc'; they don't set themselves up with long term goals. Any money they get goes on material stuff to show status. Especially in London you have very rich areas cheek to jowl with very poor areas. If you're wearing cheap clothes you mark yourself out as being poor. and there's a massive stigma attached to that. Mix that in with the peer pressure of having your main source of affirmation being other people with the same outlook and it's a poisonous situation. There's a lot of sociological studies showing that perceived inequality is one of the main causes of crime. The behaviour of these kids is disgraceful and needs to be punished of course - but we can't just ignore their anger because it's manifesting itself as incompetent unfocused rage. We do need to admit that a society where one community survives on benefits whilst another has wages many multiples of the national average is a recipe for this kind of disorder.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Some rumours that trouble kicked off in Preston, but they were completely false. I was at the PNE vs Crewe match providing first aid cover and the paramedics were on standby in case anything kicked off in the town centre. They stayed at their posts the whole match, weren't needed.

 

It is politically embarrassing for Cameron, especially given this was happening for days before enough manpower was sent down to London to maintain a relatively quiet night. But it does also give some credence to his 'broken society'. I don't believe that the whole of the UK's (especially the impoverished bits of it) social problems can be so easily summed up in a catch phrase, but isn't Miliband talking on 5live this morning about the causes of the rioting--lack of ambition/opportunity, poor parenting standards--the same thing?

[Chippychap]

This government makes decisions DESPITE the people it affects.

It allows thousands of poor people to lose their jobs and refuses to help whilst giving BILLIONS to the bankers.

It is closing down facilities for the poorer in society.

It has removed EMA which DIRECTLY affects many who are protesting.

It has destroyed the value of the pensions and thus affecting those who have worked all their lives and are now unable to repair the damage.

It has stated that the disabled are all feckless wasters and have employed a company called Atos and is giving them a bonus for every disabled person

hounded back into some kind of employment; at least four have commited suicide because they were unable to withstand the pressure.

the bottom of the pile, me included, no longer feel included and I am not some chavvy kid I am a 55 year old ex officer in the fire service.

No money for nursing homes but BILLIONS for loss-making banks, Trident submarines and the EU money-pit.

How ironic that "Slippery-Dave" Cameron tells us that we are destroying peoples businesses when they themselves have sent thousands to the wall.

As for the police, what a bunch of bent nazis. I love watching the vermin' squirmin'. Most plod supporters have never had any dealing with 'em.

I just hope they don't burn the Olympic venues down. :thumbsup:

Cameron plays HIS games and so do we.

The only things he hasn't said are "It's not big and it's not clever" and "It's your own time you are wasting"

Burn the lot.......imho

[Racheya]

Burn Parliament then - what do communities and businesses have to do with strictly GOVERNMENT 'grievances' which is total bollocks, btw. The rioting chavs are the ones in the wrong here. I live on the same council estates as they do but since I'm not a [developmentally delayed]ed, chavvy [bleep] I don't riot.

[Giordano]

Burn Parliament then - what do communities and businesses have to do with strictly GOVERNMENT 'grievances' which is total bollocks, btw. The rioting chavs are the ones in the wrong here. I live on the same council estates as they do but since I'm not a [developmentally delayed]ed, chavvy [bleep] I don't riot.

For the same reason a kid might yell at his mom over dinner because he's mad about a kid pushing him down at recess. Sure it's not mom's fault, but it's definitely a very human thing to lash out at those around you when you're upset.

Yes, yes we know that. But if these rioters really want to hurt those who matter, they'd tear down every representative's (I dunno the British word for it) house down and Parliament.

 

But nope, it's a cause too great and they are scared. So they pick up on another unjustified cause: materialism.

[kamykazee]

Sale of baseball bats has gone up by 7000% on Amazon, hmmm :ohnoes: Could it be related ? :o

 

Oh noes

[homer205]

It has destroyed the value of the pensions and thus affecting those who have worked all their lives and are now unable to repair the damage.

 

It has stated that the disabled are all feckless wasters and have employed a company called Atos and is giving them a bonus for every disabled person

hounded back into some kind of employment; at least four have commited suicide because they were unable to withstand the pressure.

the bottom of the pile, me included, no longer feel included and I am not some chavvy kid I am a 55 year old ex officer in the fire service.

 

No money for nursing homes but BILLIONS for loss-making banks, Trident submarines and the EU money-pit.

 

How ironic that "Slippery-Dave" Cameron tells us that we are destroying peoples businesses when they themselves have sent thousands to the wall.

 

As for the police, what a bunch of bent nazis. I love watching the vermin' squirmin'. Most plod supporters have never had any dealing with 'em.

 

I just hope they don't burn the Olympic venues down. :thumbsup:

 

Somehow I don't think it's the pensioners who are rioting.

 

Source please.

 

Banks are important to society as a whole, if they go under, then it will be more than just the gangs/chavs/whatever else you want to call them rioting.

 

Cameron tells you that they're destroying people's businesses? There's plenty of evidence for that, not what your PM says.

 

Edit: As I understand it, the police have been rather non-violent during the protests. Obviously there are some bad cops, but all of them are getting abused right now.

 

This will have an affect on the Olympics next year regardless of whether or not the venues are burnt down, they won't be though, for the same reason government buildings haven't been targeted.

[Racheya]

I'm going to be in Salford tonight and I'm very concerned that violence will continue if there isn't more police on the streets up here. The problem is they're all down in London...

[Chippychap]

It has destroyed the value of the pensions and thus affecting those who have worked all their lives and are now unable to repair the damage.

 

It has stated that the disabled are all feckless wasters and have employed a company called Atos and is giving them a bonus for every disabled person

hounded back into some kind of employment; at least four have commited suicide because they were unable to withstand the pressure.

the bottom of the pile, me included, no longer feel included and I am not some chavvy kid I am a 55 year old ex officer in the fire service.

 

No money for nursing homes but BILLIONS for loss-making banks, Trident submarines and the EU money-pit.

 

How ironic that "Slippery-Dave" Cameron tells us that we are destroying peoples businesses when they themselves have sent thousands to the wall.

 

As for the police, what a bunch of bent nazis. I love watching the vermin' squirmin'. Most plod supporters have never had any dealing with 'em.

 

I just hope they don't burn the Olympic venues down. :thumbsup:

 

Somehow I don't think it's the pensioners who are rioting.

 

Source please.

 

Banks are important to society as a whole, if they go under, then it will be more than just the gangs/chavs/whatever else you want to call them rioting.

 

Cameron tells you that they're destroying people's businesses? There's plenty of evidence for that, not what your PM says.

 

Edit: As I understand it, the police have been rather non-violent during the protests. Obviously there are some bad cops, but all of them are getting abused right now.

 

This will have an affect on the Olympics next year regardless of whether or not the venues are burnt down, they won't be though, for the same reason government buildings haven't been targeted.

 

 

I did not say that pensioners are rioting, but they may not be so critical of the damage done.

 

As for the attacks on the disabled, it has been the subject of constant reporting in the news both written and on the radio/TV .

http://dwpexamination.myfreeforum.org/sutra7649.php

I am surprised that you feel the government is NOT overseeing the failure of thousands of family businesses.

 

As for the police, as an ex fire officer I worked very closely with them and found them of dubious honesty.

 

The fact that they tend to lie is well reported, look at Menezes, Duggan, phone hacking etc

 

As for government buildings not being targetted, we now have one police station fired, I keep my fingers crossed about Olympic venues.

 

As the IOC are in London it would be an optimum time for it to happen.

 

I was once on your side of the fence, so were many others, but I feel that more and more are joining me.

 

Cameron says that it is "totally unacceptable" that grievances should be pursued with acts of violence, is that like how we dealt with Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya et al?

 

Your reply was polite and non aggressive and that is how I would like to keep it that way.

[Zierro]

Schooling and employment are issues that need to be worked on, but I don't think it will fix the fact that idiots will worship a subculture of idiocy. Gangsters do this kind of stuff because it's deemed as cool and it lands them more respect points. Simply put, their interests are in the wrong places to begin with. No matter what type of intelligently devised political strategy you can concoct and how much free schooling you give out, it's most likely not going to change a teenager's opinion of a fun time. No, I believe that's the media.

[Chippychap]

Schooling and employment are issues that need to be worked on, but I don't think it will fix the fact that idiots will worship a subculture of idiocy. Gangsters do this kind of stuff because it's deemed as cool and it lands them more respect points. Simply put, their interests are in the wrong places to begin with. No matter what type of intelligently devised political strategy you can concoct and how much free schooling you give out, it's most likely not going to change a teenager's opinion of a fun time. No, I believe that's the media.

 

I doubt that youths who feel they have a viable future would risk it all for a pair of trainers.

Do you not wonder why so many feel that they have NO future in life worth preserving?

If you have never walked in their shoes then I feel it is lucky but only for you.

I am pleased that you can feel an affinity with a mayor, PM and a government front bench who all attended public school.

I feel sure that they ALL can empathise with the problems faced by "real people"

[Crocefisso]

This government makes decisions DESPITE the people it affects.

It allows thousands of poor people to lose their jobs and refuses to help whilst giving BILLIONS to the bankers.

It is closing down facilities for the poorer in society.

It has removed EMA which DIRECTLY affects many who are protesting.

It has destroyed the value of the pensions and thus affecting those who have worked all their lives and are now unable to repair the damage.

It has stated that the disabled are all feckless wasters and have employed a company called Atos and is giving them a bonus for every disabled person

hounded back into some kind of employment; at least four have commited suicide because they were unable to withstand the pressure.

the bottom of the pile, me included, no longer feel included and I am not some chavvy kid I am a 55 year old ex officer in the fire service.

No money for nursing homes but BILLIONS for loss-making banks, Trident submarines and the EU money-pit.

How ironic that "Slippery-Dave" Cameron tells us that we are destroying peoples businesses when they themselves have sent thousands to the wall.

As for the police, what a bunch of bent nazis. I love watching the vermin' squirmin'. Most plod supporters have never had any dealing with 'em.

I just hope they don't burn the Olympic venues down. :thumbsup:

Cameron plays HIS games and so do we.

The only things he hasn't said are "It's not big and it's not clever" and "It's your own time you are wasting"

Burn the lot.......imho

Useless conspiracy theories never get anyone anywhere. This is not the place for ranting against society. The Saudis would probably execute you for doing so - count yourself lucky.

[Surprise]

Schooling and employment are issues that need to be worked on, but I don't think it will fix the fact that idiots will worship a subculture of idiocy. Gangsters do this kind of stuff because it's deemed as cool and it lands them more respect points. Simply put, their interests are in the wrong places to begin with. No matter what type of intelligently devised political strategy you can concoct and how much free schooling you give out, it's most likely not going to change a teenager's opinion of a fun time. No, I believe that's the media.

 

I doubt that youths who feel they have a viable future would risk it all for a pair of trainers.

Do you not wonder why so many feel that they have NO future in life worth preserving?

If you have never walked in their shoes then I feel it is lucky but only for you.

I am pleased that you can feel an affinity with a mayor, PM and a government front bench who all attended public school.

I feel sure that they ALL can empathise with the problems faced by "real people"

 

They cannot blame others for short comings in their life. They had the chance like every one else to get qualifications yet they did not, mainly out of stupidity and reckleness or fathering/mothering children they stupidly had. If they wanted to get somewhere in their life they probably should have realised the best thing to do is not to set fire to their employment opportunities.

 

This is not a riot out of the failing of the government, they probably couldn't even tell you who the Prime minister is, this is merely rioting for the sake of causing damage. Throw them in the zoo, let them live with the animals and see whether they come out better.

 

[hide]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

 

The video above says it all abot the level of intelligence of the rioters.

[/hide]

[Zierro]

Schooling and employment are issues that need to be worked on, but I don't think it will fix the fact that idiots will worship a subculture of idiocy. Gangsters do this kind of stuff because it's deemed as cool and it lands them more respect points. Simply put, their interests are in the wrong places to begin with. No matter what type of intelligently devised political strategy you can concoct and how much free schooling you give out, it's most likely not going to change a teenager's opinion of a fun time. No, I believe that's the media.

 

I doubt that youths who feel they have a viable future would risk it all for a pair of trainers.

Do you not wonder why so many feel that they have NO future in life worth preserving?

If you have never walked in their shoes then I feel it is lucky but only for you.

I am pleased that you can feel an affinity with a mayor, PM and a government front bench who all attended public school.

I feel sure that they ALL can empathise with the problems faced by "real people"

 

You're right - anybody with a bright future ahead of them is immune to being stupid.

[Sy_Accursed]

Schooling and employment are issues that need to be worked on, but I don't think it will fix the fact that idiots will worship a subculture of idiocy. Gangsters do this kind of stuff because it's deemed as cool and it lands them more respect points. Simply put, their interests are in the wrong places to begin with. No matter what type of intelligently devised political strategy you can concoct and how much free schooling you give out, it's most likely not going to change a teenager's opinion of a fun time. No, I believe that's the media.

 

I doubt that youths who feel they have a viable future would risk it all for a pair of trainers.

 

 

Then you are completely out of touch with youth culture and should not comment.

Plenty of youths gladly will do this stuff INSPITE of a viable future being open to them.

 

And don;t try and write me off as somebody who has no idea.

I went to an under funded black hole of a school.

I by no means live in luxury of any kinda, my house is ex-council house bought from them like 50 years ago.

Lived on a relatively tight budget all my life.

Went to a college that wasn't exactly the best college in the world, bit dilapidated.

 

Sure I'm not from the absolutely roughest estates of a city, but that doesn't make a huuuuggge difference to the opportunities afforded me or future opportunities out there.

 

Plus half the youths who do have no future are there by choice due to getting pregnant or getting kicked out of school, it's not the government or anybody elses fault they mucked up their own life early on.

[Boris5000]

 

I'll just leave this here.

[joke_slayer]

went to the manchester cleanuo today, was glad to see loads of people there, and a lot of shops opening

very proud of manchester

 

on another note haven't heard about any trouble so far tonight *fingers crossed*

[mcneilp]

Schooling and employment are issues that need to be worked on, but I don't think it will fix the fact that idiots will worship a subculture of idiocy. Gangsters do this kind of stuff because it's deemed as cool and it lands them more respect points. Simply put, their interests are in the wrong places to begin with. No matter what type of intelligently devised political strategy you can concoct and how much free schooling you give out, it's most likely not going to change a teenager's opinion of a fun time. No, I believe that's the media.

 

I doubt that youths who feel they have a viable future would risk it all for a pair of trainers.

 

A primary school teacher was one of the first people to be actually charged for their part in the riot/looting a shop. It's not just chavs and gangsters doing the looting.