Tip.It Times - 23rd October 2011

[tripsis]

 

Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

 

I'd like to remind people of the rules pertaining to Times threads:

 

[hide=Read these rules before posting in this thread]

Rampant flame wars have taken control of virtually every week's times discussion topics. The following guidelines must be followed when posting on this topic. Posts that ignore these guidelines will be removed.

 

1. You are invited and welcome to express like or dislike on articles and a particular author's writing style. It is not acceptable, however, to flame or personally insult an author. Posts that aren't anything but an attack will be removed from the topic.

 

2. Spelling and grammar errors can be reported to tripsis by PMing her and they will be fixed promptly. It is not necessary to post them on the discussion topic.

 

3. Off topic posts that do not discuss the content of that week's articles will be removed. This is not the place to discuss the direction of the times, how much you love or hate the times, etc. Off topic posts will be removed.

 

By keeping within these guidelines, Times discussion topics will mean more for the Panel and Administration than just a place for flame wars. Flame wars do not provide any useful feedback to the Times, which is mainly what we're aiming for with these topics: feedback.

 

This policy is effective as of now, November 17, 2010. Any posts prior to the creation of this policy may or may not be removed according to the new guidelines.

[/hide]

 

When replying please make sure to clarify the article you are replying to! Thanks!

 

If you spot any typos or mistakes in the article then please PM them to me :)

 

Enjoy the articles!

 

Remember, if you are interested in writing for the Tip.It Times you may submit a guest article or apply to write full time. Visit this thread for more information.

[Hedgehog]

For the first time in a long time, I didn't know the dyk.

[Kimberly]

The quality of a community is not determined by how well people debate, but how well everyone meshes together in that community. So arguing well might help things mesh together, but it is not the end-all-be-all. Informative article, I suppose, but I would've rather seen a critique than a dry instructional list.

[Fallstar]

Very interesting, especially the one with Peter. The one about techniques employed by people arguing over the internet was also very well written.

[Dudecrush8]

And of course the age old question: boxers or briefs?

Tripsis: I can answer that one :D Boxers!

 

You would know Tripsis... :P

 

We all appreciate your work very much Peter!

 

Get a job a Jagex, then we'll always have the best info! :XD:

[Ellac]

Really, Tripsis? Boxers or briefs? :rolleyes:

[D. V. Devnull]

Just read the "Interview with Peter" a short time ago. Awesome read, especially the joke about Silverion's Closet. :lol:

 

As for Tripsis's answer about "Boxers or Briefs?", however, I must disagree. BRIEFS FTW! :P

 

~D. V. "Got me grinning... nice!" Devnull

 

 

 

(p.s.: Haven't read the other article yet. Don't know whether I'll post again if I do...)

[Kaida23]

A very big thanks to Peter (and the rest of the admin team, of course) for all his hard work getting us back up and running again, and for taking the time our of his busy sleep schedule to answer our questions. :P It's amazing how much is going on behinds the scenes to keep things running smoothly.

 

As "God" once said in an episode of Futurama: "When you do things right, people wont be sure youve done anything at all."

[Kirschen]

Boxer or briefs? Why not the best of both worlds?

 

Liked this week. Can't wait for next week. :)

[Crocefisso]

The quality of a community is not determined by how well people debate, but how well everyone meshes together in that community. So arguing well might help things mesh together, but it is not the end-all-be-all. Informative article, I suppose, but I would've rather seen a critique than a dry instructional list.

Thanks for the feedback, Kimberley. Clearly my attempt to structure the article, in order to achieve clarity, did not work. Out of interest, could you elaborate on how I could make it more of a critique?

[Kimberly]

I actually thought you were going for an informative piece, and I was stating what I'd enjoy reading more. I can tell you put effort into it though, and I really don't have any critique to give on how to make such a piece better. I never really took debate classes, and to be truthful I learned things reading article #1. Your conclusion was what made me think I'd love to see a critique on the community of the site specifically, nothing more. :P

[firebird308]

I felt like I was being lectured at in the first one and liked the second one.

[Extragorey]

"The Internet and Arguments" was a very interesting read. I agree with most of it...

 

Regarding "proof", though, say someone makes a general claim like "This game is really popular, heaps of people play it", referring to a very obscure title from 1995 or so...

Well, it seems only logical they provide proof if they want you to believe it. It's not that hard to find a positive review if you try - and the person on the receiving end isn't going to because they couldn't care less.

So yeah, I think asking for proof in some scenarios is perfectly reasonable.

 

Also... One has to wonder... If all of those points make you a bad debater, what exactly does it take to be a really good debater? I shudder to think...

[NukeMarine]

Not to be jerk (usually said by people about to be a jerk), but couldn't the first article have been summed up by linking to logical fallacies in wikipedia? Good article though. So, here are some other problems in "discussions" I see in RS forums:

 

-Something has ALWAYS been that way (impossible as the game itself is only 10 years old). Associated with arguing with tradition, but more like ignoring anything that happened prior to the person getting involved.

-X is against the law in real life, so it should not be allowed in RS. One, it ignores the very ideas of fantasy game, in addition it ignores that laws are not universal even in real life.

-I can get X in Y days. Annoying tactic that ignores actual time used during the day. In a way, it's presenting false evidence.

-No real Scotsman.... This is annoying in that they ignore your evidence by saying no real (pker, cw, pure, botter, etc) would actually do that. Kind of akin to moving the goal post.

-All or nothing. These zero sum arguments such as "Jagex can't get rid of all the bots, so they should allow all of them".

-Time is free. These guys don't associate effort and time put toward something as having an inherent cost involved. One example was saying guys were getting a dragon axe for free by doing all the beacons. Completely ignored the effort and time it would take just to have the levels for the chance to do that mini-game.

[stonewall337]

The quality of a community is not determined by how well people debate, but how well everyone meshes together in that community. So arguing well might help things mesh together, but it is not the end-all-be-all. Informative article, I suppose, but I would've rather seen a critique than a dry instructional list.

 

A Kritik of what? As a rule, TIF users are more logical, but also more prone to use logical fallacies then other RS users in game or on the RSOF. Ye, the first article was boring. But I'm curious what type of K you'd have been interested in, as I might write one lol.

 

A kritik is, to overgeneralize, a challenging of the mindset/viewpoint of a stance before the proposed action can/should be taken, among other things. Example: I ran the "F-ing K" at my last debate when the Neg dropped the F bomb a few times. It basically says that the F bomb is the linguistic equivilant of a nuclear bomb, it degrades women by exalting the cultures "male dominated" view of sex, and the impact was something bad (I forgot exactly what the MPX and terminal impact was-I'm tired lol) that's a very general view of one type of K.

 

Perhaps a better example would be the "whiteness" K we use in debate. The team argues that the debate community is "white" (generally rich/privilaged/socially higher up, etc) and as such the resolution can not be enacted before this problem is addressed. As such, until the debate community is so "non-white" that the resolution does not require X to be used (In this case using the USFG as the actor) that Y bad things will occur/are occurring etc. I never use this K, so I'm not as familiar with it, and it has many layers and things which can be changed.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Regarding "proof", though, say someone makes a general claim like "This game is really popular, heaps of people play it", referring to a very obscure title from 1995 or so...

Well, it seems only logical they provide proof if they want you to believe it. It's not that hard to find a positive review if you try - and the person on the receiving end isn't going to because they couldn't care less.

So yeah, I think asking for proof in some scenarios is perfectly reasonable.

 

Also... One has to wonder... If all of those points make you a bad debater, what exactly does it take to be a really good debater? I shudder to think...

 

I agree.

 

To be honest I found the "internet and Arguments" article a pretty heavy going read. Sorry Croc, It seems you're always trying to prove something with your writing skills. There's really no need to do this. It shouldn't really have got past the editorial panel.

[Crocefisso]

To be honest I found the "internet and Arguments" article a pretty heavy going read. Sorry Croc, It seems you're always trying to prove something with your writing skills. There's really no need to do this. It shouldn't really have got past the editorial panel.

 

I write articles on topics that interest me in a way I would want to read them. You are more than welcome to express an open dislike for them - you wouldn't be the first - but to combine it with silly assumptions is not a reasonable piece of feedback. The only thing I ever seek to 'prove' is whatever view I am trying to express.

 

Secondly, you are in no position to say what should/shouldn't have "got past" the editorial panel, especially seeing as you seem to object to it only on the basis of not liking it. Perhaps you'd care to apply if you'd like to have a say on EP policy?

[Guest jrhairychest]

I write articles on topics that interest me in a way I would want to read them. You are more than welcome to express an open dislike for them - you wouldn't be the first - but to combine it with silly assumptions is not a reasonable piece of feedback. The only thing I ever seek to 'prove' is whatever view I am trying to express.

It's not a silly assumption, I'm certainly not the first poster to have commented on your writing style. The way you want your articles to be written isn't necessarily what everyone else agrees with i.e. the audience.

 

Secondly, you are in no position to say what should/shouldn't have "got past" the editorial panel, especially seeing as you seem to object to it only on the basis of not liking it. Perhaps you'd care to apply if you'd like to have a say on EP policy?

Actually you're wrong - I like the subject and I think it could be quite interesting and the subjects you've picked before are also interesting. I object to the way it was written which I am allowed to do. And yes - it shouldn't have got past the editorial panel. I'm in a position to say so as I'm part of your intended audience, which you are ignoring.

 

If a position comes up on the EP panel I'll consider it but I won't hold my breath in being successful.

[tripsis]

If a position comes up on the EP panel I'll consider it but I won't hold my breath in being successful.

Positions don't "come up." You can apply to be a full time writer at any time or submit a guest article at any time: http://forum.tip.it/topic/209138-how-to-write-for-the-tipit-times/

[Crocefisso]

It's not a silly assumption, I'm certainly not the first poster to have commented on your writing style. The way you want your articles to be written isn't necessarily what everyone else agrees with i.e. the audience.

 

Actually you're wrong - I like the subject and I think it could be quite interesting and the subjects you've picked before are also interesting. I object to the way it was written which I am allowed to do. And yes - it shouldn't have got past the editorial panel. I'm in a position to say so as I'm part of your intended audience, which you are ignoring.

 

If a position comes up on the EP panel I'll consider it but I won't hold my breath in being successful.

 

The silliness is your assumption that I am trying to prove something by writing in a way that I enjoy. As for what the audience wants: I wouldn't be on the EP if I had to write what they want to see, because it's often not what I want to write about.

 

I retain that you, as a forum member with no other position, are in no position to evaluate what the EP should publish. The audience's tastes are too broad to be able to satisfy everybody, and I am afraid more seem to have enjoyed the article judging from feedback. The fact you didn't like the writing stye means nothing to what the EP will or will not publish.

[Guest jrhairychest]

The silliness is your assumption that I am trying to prove something by writing in a way that I enjoy. As for what the audience wants: I wouldn't be on the EP if I had to write what they want to see, because it's often not what I want to write about.

 

Yes, yes of course you're not *cough*. I can see what the issue is here. It's called me, myself and I. If you really want to stimulate debate and take your good ideas further then make it shorter and more suited to the audience you're trying to involve.

 

I retain that you, as a forum member with no other position, are in no position to evaluate what the EP should publish. The audience's tastes are too broad to be able to satisfy everybody, and I am afraid more seem to have enjoyed the article judging from feedback. The fact you didn't like the writing stye means nothing to what the EP will or will not publish.

 

I don't need a 'position' to voice my opinion on something, so please spare me the 'no position' crap. On the subject you are neither moderator nor administrator so you're in no position to tell me what I can and can't comment on.

 

If you choose to ignore a number of players giving feedback on this and your other articles then that's your problem not mine. Just like you're ignoring the pages and pages here of positive feedback and debate on your current article...........

[Hamtaro]

The silliness is your assumption that I am trying to prove something by writing in a way that I enjoy. As for what the audience wants: I wouldn't be on the EP if I had to write what they want to see, because it's often not what I want to write about.

 

Yes, yes of course you're not *cough*. I can see what the issue is here. It's called me, myself and I. If you really want to stimulate debate and take your good ideas further then make it shorter and more suited to the audience you're trying to involve.

I fail to see any merit in your criticism. In case you didn't notice, you're the only one who seems to have a problem with the way Croce writes. Yet, you make this assumption that all users share your own (lack of?) attention span for an article that happens to be relevant to every user on this forum. With respect to "more suited to the audience," I can't help but read that as, "Everyone on TIF is stupid but me." Yet here you stand alone in complaining about how it was written rather than what was written.

 

For your cute little comment about the EP, we make the judgment of what is published. Everyone on the EP knows how to write well, knows conceptual and practical English, and doesn't seem to have any difficulty in reading an article longer than the length of the chat box on RuneScape. Croce puts his all into his articles and is never going to change his style. The common denominator in all of his articles is trying to enlighten users of an often overlooked or downright unknown idea and he does a damn great job every single time.

 

If someone looks at one of his articles and thinks it's too long or whatever else you were suggesting, they're missing out on a great piece with some knowledge that will benefit them beyond RuneScape and Tip.It. If you alone think his articles are too long or educational, you're reading the wrong editorial, buddy. If it's short abominations of the English language you were hoping to see, try Reddit.

[The_Fray]

Frankly Croc, I find your articles boring and it was the same with the previous article (which I did not finish btw). This one I managed to finish but I was left with a sense that this was a reply to the people who commented on your article last time. In which case it would have been suited to post in that thread rather than in another Times article. Another thing I dislike is when a Times article fails to spark up a debate or any form of discussion which this failed to do, you had better success last time. There is very little discussion value in the article which is why you got the "well written" replies but those posts failed to address what was actually in the article. Only a couple of people actually talked about the content in your article which I would be concerned with I would be you. Maybe you should consider jrhairychest advice and cut down the long winding articles and keep them concise and to the point.

[stonewall337]

It's not a silly assumption, I'm certainly not the first poster to have commented on your writing style. The way you want your articles to be written isn't necessarily what everyone else agrees with i.e. the audience.

 

Actually you're wrong - I like the subject and I think it could be quite interesting and the subjects you've picked before are also interesting. I object to the way it was written which I am allowed to do. And yes - it shouldn't have got past the editorial panel. I'm in a position to say so as I'm part of your intended audience, which you are ignoring.

 

If a position comes up on the EP panel I'll consider it but I won't hold my breath in being successful.

 

The silliness is your assumption that I am trying to prove something by writing in a way that I enjoy. As for what the audience wants: I wouldn't be on the EP if I had to write what they want to see, because it's often not what I want to write about.

 

I retain that you, as a forum member with no other position, are in no position to evaluate what the EP should publish. The audience's tastes are too broad to be able to satisfy everybody, and I am afraid more seem to have enjoyed the article judging from feedback. The fact you didn't like the writing stye means nothing to what the EP will or will not publish.

 

This is the attitude I HATE about TIF staff. Anyone can evaluate your writing, and whether or not it should have been published. The article was boring, according to some, too deep for the topic it covered according to others, and simply useless or uninteresting to yet others. I don't think, personally, I would have published it. The article covered an interesting topic, but was presented poorly for the audience, according to taste, etc, as evidenced by the previous posts.

 

I am NOT saying it was poorly written as far as style/topic etc. Rather that for the audience, it wasn't written well for the audience.

[Father_Time]

"Furthermore, it is exceptionally lazy for people on the internet not to be able to fact-check for themselves"

 

The burden of proof is always on people making the claim.

Whenever they do it is THEIR responsibility to back it up. To not back up your claims and expect other people to do your work for you is lazy.