The Back Room

[archimage_a]

Balance of trade as in other countries wouldn't buy your goods because you aren't buying theirs...

 

Gandhi, Hunger Strike, your government falls after 20 prisoners starve themselves to death/your men kill one while trying to forcefeed them.

A century of Liberalism can't be undone in a matter of weeks.

 

There are logical reasons why we don't do that kind of thing...and alot of illogical reasons...Emanicipation proclaimation being one of them....

[Retech]

I am aware, but America is already at a negative balance of trade with most of the world. Quite simply, this would fix that.

 

 

I was under the impression that we were operating under the pretense of a perfect society, meaning there would be no anti-government revolts. Result: Dead prisoners. Similarly, we've been operating under the delusion that it would be easy or even possible to transfer from our current society to this new perfect society, especially with much of the wealth held by corporations. I'm sure they could've figured something out in Soviet Russia.

[archimage_a]

In a perfect society you wouldn't have any prisoners, and so your economy collapses.

 

 

Also, the City of London, in the 80s, brought in 4 Billion Pounds a year.(I am assuming New York and such generate similar amouns)

If you screwed up the balance of trade then that collapses...

 

Domino effect of 4 Billion pounds a year disappearing is gonna be a collapse of confidence, a run on the pound/dollar, price hikes and inflation...

 

Yoghurt, present day, world wide, has an output of some 3 Billion Pounds a year. Of which 17% is profit(if I remember correctly).

We can, therefore, assume that childrens toys and other unskilled labour tasks would not fetch more money than would be lost with the collapse of trading centers.

 

 

Its kind of like saying 'The boat is flooding! Quick, turn it over to let the water out.'

[Resistance]

I personally would go with the lax tagging approach.

 

For people who didn't read my above post I basically suggested an electronic tag that all criminals would wear for the remainder of there sentence. People would still serve prison time however it would be shorter and far worse, it would create the perception that you are constantly being watched, you are punished for the smallest things and food is minimal. The effect basically institutionalizes people in a very short time due to the culture shock.

They are released after a period of time (under twelve months usually, even for mass murder) however they are fitted with an electronic tag on there ankle (or if we are going for ease and humiliation on there forehead) which monitors there location and vital signs. If it detects a surge in adrenaline, blood pressure or anything else like that then it will monitor what the person is doing through camera's (both CCTV and the one over the leg) if the person is doing something like committing a murder or whatever then it electrocutes the person, it then injects chemicals that make the person feel sick for a couple of days so that they won't do it again (classical conditioning). It doesn't cost much to monitor the people, it just takes people to flit through people and electrocute them if they are doing bad things.

 

Also, sometimes it electrocutes you just to remind you its there.

[Retech]

I think you misunderstood. You're still trading with the majority of the world, except the third world countries that can no longer afford your products because you are no longer in need of theirs. We would only need to purchase resources.

 

The financial system worked fine without third world countries before.

 

 

From what I understand Mather was doing, we are creating societies that were built up over time. They're not perfect, but just assuming that they evolved that way.

 

----

 

Or you can exile the prisoners like I suggested earlier, and put tagging systems. They return to your countries, and it whacks em.

[archimage_a]

I think you misunderstood. You're still trading with the majority of the world, except the third world countries that can no longer afford your products because you are no longer in need of theirs. We would only need to purchase resources.

 

The financial system worked fine without third world countries before.

 

Sigh...

Third world countries like China, Korea and Japan?...Aka countries that make childrens toys and TV sets?

 

If you stopped trading with third world countries Bread, Chocolate and Coffee would shoot up in price and your economy would collapse because China, Japan and Korea got annoyed with you.

 

Hence your balance of trade dies a death, your country collapses and you come back from the next election with one seat.

[Resistance]

Or you can exile the prisoners like I suggested earlier, and put tagging systems. They return to your countries, and it whacks em.

But exile stops them from being productive members of society, people who are tagged stay as productive members of society however all there right to privacy is removed, they become people who can't act anything apart from the norm, effectively as far as your concerned they are robots, if they malfunction you 'fix them'. The device also talks to them and tells them what to do, this further humiliates them.

[archimage_a]

Also, how would you exile them? Them walking to the border is gonna annoy your neighbours...who wants a murderer?

[Retech]

Agriculture = US is net exporter of agricultural goods. No problems there

 

 

Prisoners would only take out China and Korea from the equation, because currently Japan is producing higher quality goods that would not be replaced by the prison factories. Chocolate and coffee are a small loss at most. Infact, they might actually decline in price, because now the people are poorer and the cost of living drops. (for the third world countries)

 

Mind explaining how all of this keeps leading to the economy collapsing?

 

---

 

I'm sure some poor country would take them in for a thousand bucks a person.

[Resistance]

Do any of you plan on starting hegemony again?

[archimage_a]

Sigh...

City of London =£4 Billion(100% profit)

Yoghurt =£3 Billion(17% profit)

Children's Toys = <£3 Billion(<10% Profit)

 

You are trading 4 Billion for something worth less than 510 Million.

 

Call my old fasioned, but that sounds like a bad deal.

 

 

 

As far as I know the USA doesn't have Coffee and Chocolate Plantations...or are you making your chocolate out of oats and rye?

 

 

 

 

Also, the world economy is interconnected, China, Japan and Korea invest in America, America invests in China, Japan and Korea...the cycle goes on and money is magicked out of the air.

 

Also, did you know that the market in Credit Default Swaps was over 67 Trillion Dollars.

You stop trading with China, you lose 67 Trillion Dollars. :angry:

[Retech]

Sigh...

 

I said that I believed that the first two would not be lost, and the third would be gained. I am not arguing that the deal that you suggested would be a bad one, but I am arguing that it is not the deal that is going to take place.

 

I don't think that either of us have knowledge of the economy at this moment, so please direct your argument on ethics or something else, because there's no way that you could prove me wrong using economic theory.

 

 

 

This is basically the reason that I don't do anything regarding the economy (except for tech increases of course) in your Hegemony's, and why hypothetically you probaly would not do anything regarding the economy in my hypothetical Hegemony.

[archimage_a]

Sigh...

Your plans never make any sense because they hinge on the rest of the world carrying on while you exploit them.

 

And yes, I can prove you wrong...it would just tie up about 5 hours of my time looking for facts and figures rather than relying on my memory...I have done it before with your Russia-Alaska economic plan.

 

However, I am running Space and really am not that bothered...so yeah.

[Retech]

That was a clear cut case of profit, which never materialized.

 

Now we're discussing economic theory that is probaly too complex for even people with degrees, so it is all relative. You have forgotten that I can argue almost endless, recycling the same points over and over again. < War by Attrition

[Resistance]

Do any of you plan on starting hegemony again?

[Retech]

I am not.

[The_Mather1]

Straight away there is excessive force. What you havent actually thought about here is that police quite often abuse their weapons; many brawlers become police just so they can have a big fight. I really dont understand why vandalism requires police to have a Taser.

While tasers are easily abusable they may be neccessary in order to prevent a criminal from escaping.

Police dont need guns to apprehend a criminal; I know that it is common to believe that equal force must be required however dont you think that a more efficient system would be to ban firearms like in Britain? This effectively removes the threat of armed assault. Police need Tasers on this occasion.

While that is true, it is still better with one injured criminal than several dead cops.

Bank robberys dont require the state to kill them, if there is a hostage situation then snipers may be necessary but the most powerful weapon is a voice.

Bank robbery was intended as an example for organised crime

This is basically a good excuse for the state to take libertys.

With terrorism I mean any crime that includes destroying a large building or killing large amounts of people.

A civilized society does not murder people. If a person is in prison they are just as deadly as a person dead; thus the death penalty can only be in revenge.

As you probably can make out from the explanation above, the only people that fall under tier six are too dangerous to be kept alive. While a prison may be seen as safe, it is not perfect, any tier six escapee is not only a potential, but an active threat against the nation.

-Weapons are publically available.

Why?

There is no need for them to be publically available, you will counter a lot of shootings if you simply ban guns like we have done in Britain.

Banning weapons from the public would only work to enrage the people, guns are used for multiple sporting events and several martial artforms use blunt and bladed weapons.

Marijuana should be banned, its addictive, creates psychological problems and just creates a general group of potheads. Agree on the alcohol thing.

While addictive it is less so than tobacco as well as dealing less harm to the body. It also has medicinal uses as both a painkiller and a blood thinner.

Personally I disagree, I see no reason for a sixteen year old to drink or smoke. By saying this you are encouraging young children to create a problem for general society.

No matter how the rules are there will be teenage drinkers, but by doing this it gives the parents more control.

I agree with the age of consent thing but drawn pornography is just as bad as standard pornography, what you are saying is ridiculous and it will encourage a boom in the hentai industry.

This one was more opinion than logic, it may have to do with Norway having one of the largest percentages of underage porn viewers. It just feels right in my head, that's all I can say. Also what's wrong with a bigger hentai industry?

By letting people draw young children in sexual acts you are encouraging it, almost saying it is ok to do. This could be interpreted the wrong way.

There's is no way to stop them from it anyways, but this way more effort can be put into getting rid of real CP.

 

Do not read if you like to think of me as innocent or anything in that area... actually I advice you not to read this, I wrote this just to be entirely honest:

[hide]Also I am tired of getting the "This site has been blocked due to containing sexual depictions of children." message when visiting hentai sites. :blink: [/hide]

[Seraphi]

You have forgotten that I can argue almost endless, recycling the same points over and over again. < War by Attrition

We all do that.

 

It's part of the reason why none of us will ever back down or give up on an argument/opinion.

[Nexaduro]

As I believe I have previously stated, Ross, that's what makes us Taverners.

[Alg]

You guys handle it better than OT.

[Retech]

We just have to accept the fact that any argument will essentially get to nowhere, and that the other side will probaly ignore your analysis if it is contradictory to their own.

 

Yet somehow we still manage to get along. If we were US senators on the same side, we could probaly fillibuster a bill easily. Talking endlessly and reading off Grandma's cooking recipes to delay passage of a bill. :)

[a_bert]

list of laws required for perfect society:

 

1) none

 

list of what else is required for perfect society:

 

1) perfect altruism in every individual

 

well gg i guess human race!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nexaduro]

Ah, I suppose the exception to my rule is Dungeonal. He either makes ridiculous statements followed by a slap upside the head of irrefutable logic, or hides said logic in seemingly ridiculous statements.

[Alg]

He does have a point here. You're talking about building a perfect society from inherently imperfect individuals.

[archimage_a]

'why don't you ban guns like in Britain?"

 

Because that doesn't work? Serious criminals will acquire guns anyway, all that does is keep the common man from defending himself from someone with an illegal gun.

 

Usually I agree with this kind of an arguement(To me known as the airplane metal detector arguement).

 

However, look at the tavern..How many times have we got really annoyed with each other...In the heat of the moment one of us could shoot someone else, and then where would we be?

 

In Britian we could hit each other, but the chances of that leading to something serious are somewhat lower.

 

 

 

Also, taking the argument one step further:

 

'Why don't you ban Surface to Air Missiles like in Britain?"

 

Because that doesn't work? Serious criminals will acquire the Surface to Air Missiles anyway, all that does is keep the common man from defending himself from someone with a hijacked Plane or Helicopter Gunship.