The Back Room

[The_Mather1]

Keep the game's age in mind. It's from 1998, making it just six years younger than Wolfenstein 3D.

[Earth]

Mmm, I don;t like Halflife all that much, but it's interesting to play and easy to see how i caught the adoration of so many people back when it came out. It's quite advanced for its time and the animations are decent. The storyline may be a little bit odd, but it does give you the freedom to explore.

[The_Mather1]

It just goes to show you how loose our interest is.

 

If you want us to be impressed then tell us when it is day 4...Elsewise get a Blog 'My Sleepless Nights' or something.

Yo, day four. I started on Saturday and it is now Tuesday.

 

My head is now quiet for a change. For once in my life I'm not being bothered by a constant flood of idle thoughts that fill my mind and distract me.

[Resistance]

Does anybody else here watch breaking bad?

[Alg]

Does anybody else here watch breaking bad?

I've been meaning to start this one but I'm following too many other shows.

[Earth]

Hey arch, I've watched some tekkit stuff and it seems pretty enjoyable, I think it's what you were trying to get me into when we were doing MC server stuff. Want to try a tekkit server together?

[archimage_a]

Sure, somewhen =P

<

 

Congrats Mather, you beat my record. The only thing I will say is that sleep deprevation is like hypothermia...when you can't feel the cold you are at the most dangerous point. =p

 

 

And I was playing the Black Mesa mod:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Mesa_(video_game)

I think I was most hacked off by the 'Only people who have played this before will play this now' design mantra, leading to design choices which were annoying.

[The_Mather1]

Yeah, the cold doesn't do much to me either. Just a few days ago I managed to get my arms so thoroughly cold that they seemed to resist any attempt to heat them up again, even over the course of hours in a well heated room. However by spending the night in bed, I finally managed to get the flesh and bones to thaw out,

[archimage_a]

Well obviously if you don't have Hypothermia then you don't need to apply the logic of Hyperthermia and you just operate under the usual rules of 'Cold Numbs You'

[The_Mather1]

I wasn't numb, my arms just held a constant temperature of 10°C. I know, that defies some of the requirements for human biology to function, but my arms really held that temperature all the way in to the bone (standing outside in a t-shirt in the middle of the night up here north of the polar circle for nearly six hours wasn't exactly the most thought out thing I've done).

They didn't feel cold themselves, but touching them felt like touching a cold metal object and they refused to get any warmer.

[archimage_a]

Constant 10 degrees C isn't particularly low, you can drop a human body down into sub-zero environments for sustained periods of time without injury, though there is risk, of course. In general it just depends on how the body responds to the change in temperature...For instance I know of someone who treked five miles, semi-naked (They undressed to flee from a bear, since bears are curious animals they investigated the clothes while she fled), in the Northern reaches of Canada and survived without injury.

 

If you were in a cold environment for several hours then your general body temperature would have dropped and, unsuprisingly, your entire body wouldn't heat up instantly on returning to a warm room, even if you sat in that room for several hours.

Likewise, a series of circumstances could have arisen which held your arm at a lower temperature than the rest of your body. (I don't know, its difficult to say what happened without all the facts)

 

If you have ever done any meat roasting you will know that something can sit in 200 degrees C for over two hours, get just 2

or 3 inches down it is still relatively cold.

[The_Mather1]

It was 10°c outside, I was wearing a t-shirt and I spent 6 hours talking to this friend of mine.

And yes, lowered body temperature isn't exactly a danger, however when the tissue retains such low temperatures for a prolonged duration, it speeds up the cellular decay sufficiently that there should be consequences - there were none.

Another thing to note is the fact that I didn't suffer from numbness, which means my body didn't regulate my bloodflow away from my arms, which again means my blood was cooled down and in turn cooled down my internal organs, slowing their functions, which is how hypothermia happens.

 

What this means is that I should have suffered decay in my arms and at least a minor case of hypothermia, but I didn't, which is something I owe to my body being a resilient little [bleep].

[Earth]

If we are doing a taking server thing you'll have to ask Mather how to set it up, as my computer is slightly unreliable. Hell, we could have other tavernites join in as well. (For some reason autocorrect turned tavernites into racecourses...)

[archimage_a]

And yes, lowered body temperature isn't exactly a danger, however when the tissue retains such low temperatures for a prolonged duration, it speeds up the cellular decay sufficiently that there should be consequences - there were none.

 

If empirical evidence contradicts theory then one of two things:

1) The theory is wrong

2) The empirical evidence has been improperly collected

 

In this case the only time tissue should, noticably, degrade is below 0 degrees C, causing ice crystals to form which damages the surrounding tissue, and/or, if the body overreacts and cuts off blood flow, resulting in necrosis/toxin build up/etc.

 

 

Another thing to note is the fact that I didn't suffer from numbness, which means my body didn't regulate my bloodflow away from my arms, which again means my blood was cooled down and in turn cooled down my internal organs, slowing their functions, which is how hypothermia happens.

Again, if the Empirical Evidence contradicts the theory then either:

1) The theory is wrong

2) The evidence has been incorrectly observed.

 

If you did not suffer numbness then you may, indeed, have a defective body. However Hypothermia just means you have a core body temperature below 35 degrees C. This THEN can cause slowed function, etc, etc, etc.

However if your body is capable of replenishing the heat lost, through one manner or another, then your core temperature does not drop below 35 degrees C, nor does your body suffer from the effects of Hypothermia.

Likewise 35 degrees C is just the generalised figure, it may be lower for some, it may be higher for others.

 

Added to which numbness only occurs, normally, after a period of pain/tingling, which is usually only present if you are suffering from the initial stages of frostbite, which requires a temperature lower than 0 degrees C. So the fact you were not 'numb' doesn't mean anything.

A more reliable method of grading your exposure would be whether or not you were shivering, if you were not shivering then your body had not dropped below a core temperature which your body considers dangerous. This does not preclude the possibility that your core temperature dropped below 35 degrees, it merely means your body did not consider that drop dangerous.

 

Several reports have investigated or reviewed the pathomechanism of freezing cold injuries (e.g. Dinep 1975, Waris & Kyösola 1982, Marzella et al. 1989, Endrich et al. 1990, Mills et al. 1993, Junila et al. 1999, Berg et al. 1999). Two separate types of mechanisms can be differentiated. The rapid freezing process is activated usually by conductive heat loss in the development of contact frostbite, e.g. when touching, intentionally or accidentally, a cold object (e.g. metal), liquid (e.g. gasoline) or gas (e.g. evaporating liquid nitrogen) with bare skin. There is often neither significant general cold exposure nor enough time even for the rapid autonomic response of the vasculature, and the body temperature is usually quite normal. The local skin cools abruptly to a freezing temperature, the intracellular fluid of skin cells crystallizes and the cells die immediately. This mechanism of causing tissue necrosis by local contact freezing is utilized in medical cryotherapy of certain skin problems, e.g. warts and various tumours.

 

In slow freezing mechanism, there is time for the rapid autonomic cold responses. The core temperature may be normal or decreased, but the skin and tissue temperatures on the site of the cold exposure and its surroundings are lowered. The vasculature shows usually maximal vasoconstriction. The cold causes extracellular crystallization of water that leads to increased concentration of salts in the remaining, non-crystallized fluid. The enhanced extracellular osmolarity leads to diffusion of intracellular liquid out of the cells into the extracellular compartment and to dehydration of cells. In addition, there are simultaneous endothelial changes, extravasation and hyperviscosity of blood and microvascular clotting leading to cessation of capillary flow, long-acting hypoxia and damage to the affected tissues. Cellular membranes become injured because of both local vascular damage and loss of liquid balance, and the situation leads to a slow death of cells.

So, in summery:

Injury results from formation of Ice Crystals (at Zero/Sub-Zero temperatures) OR build up of toxins which causes damage during the thawing process.

 

However, if you were not shivering then the chances are that your body did not constrict the bloodflow, which would mean there was no toxin build up, which would mean there was not damage.

 

If you were wearing trousers, if you were wearing socks, if you were wearing shoes, if you were not standing in the middle of a wind stream, if the sun was shining, if you had eaten that day, if your mouth was getting a large amount of exercise...All of which would generate/preserve heat, which would allow your bodies' natural capacity to heat itself keep your core temperature high.

Further, if this was the case then your body may not have responded to the change in temperature, which would allow your arm/s to drop in temperature to 10 degrees C, which, unless your blood vessels constricted, would not have been injured either.

 

It all kinda depends on whether or not you were shivering profusely...

If you were then your arm is defective, as your hypothalamus was telling it to constrict the blood vessels, and it wasn't.

If you were not then your body wasn't that bothered because it didn't consider you were in danger, most typically because it could easily maintain your core body temperature...Or your hypothalamus is defective, and your ability to speak was degraded, which I imagine would have made carrying on a conversation difficult.

 

 

 

Also Earth, if Mather wants to set up a server he can, as I cannot. I have no capacity to open ports as this connection is not mine and it freaks out if more than a handful are in use at any given time (And sometimes if there is only 1)

[The_Mather1]

So you're actually assuming our cells don't decay faster in the cold just because they're instantly killed by the formation of ice crystals during rapid freezing?

Our cells die faster at any temperature outside our comfort range. This is why killing them with heat doesn't necessarily mean lighting them on fire. When you put your hand in boiling water, the cells die because the temperature range is one suitable for a more volatile set of chemical reactions than those they are supposed to perform. Similarly your cells die at cold, but not freezing, temperatures because the temperature is suboptimal for the chemical reactions cells need to perform in order to live.

 

And hypothermia does not mean lowered body temperature, it means suffering from the symptoms caused by lowered efficiency of certain organs and similar cold-induced disfunctions.

 

 

And no, I wasn't shivering, because I was forcing my body not to by controlling my lower brain functions directly. (My hypothalamus is my [bleep], that's all there is to say on that matter.)

 

 

 

On a related note to that last one; hot damn does forcibly releasing glykogon feel good. That pleasant, warm feeling as my muscles' energy stores are filled to the brim with glykogen... which reminds me that I should hurry up and eat something, it would be a waste if I had to produce excess insulin just to counteract the glykogon to get my blood sugar back up...

[archimage_a]

Meh, I was willing to argue with you until you claimed you controlled your body temperature with your mind.

Either you can do it, in which case there is no point arguing with you, or you can't and are delusional, in which case there is no point arguing with you.

 

And Hypothermia, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford Medical Dictionary, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary and the NHS Medical Directory, means:

Main Entry: hy·po·ther·mia

Pronunciation: \-ˈthər-mē-ə\

Function: noun

: subnormal temperature of the body <hypothermia, defined as temperature under 36.6°C

 

But yeah, these people are probably wrong, after all, according to them flesh decays and is replaced as a natural part of human development, and is not seriously affected by changes in temperature...Where as your theory concerning the magical disintergration of tissue at temperatures below X degree and above Y degree is far more widely held, its only in the medically backwards parts of the world...such as Europe and America...That Medical Theory holds any credance at all...

[The_Mather1]

I said I controlled my shivering, not my body temperature.

 

And you simply don't use a dictionary to look up scientific terms, that's like checking the bible for material on ancient history.

 

And saying flesh is unaffected by temperature is like saying plant matter is, and why do you think bananas are stored at exactly 13°C? Biology is chemistry, and if there's something everyone ought to know about chemistry, it's the fact that a slight change of temperature can make a huge difference.

(Btw: Bananas are stored at exactlly 13°C because at that temperature, the ripening (aka. cellular decay) grinds to a near complete halt.)

[Alg]

I said I controlled my shivering, not my body temperature.

I'll admit that I'm not an expert when it comes to neuroscience, but I'm almost certain that this isn't possible.

[Earth]

Ey, Mather, CAN you set up a Tekkit server? It'd be pretty fun, I'd think.

[Earth]

If Mather isn't willing to make a Tekkit server, maybe I could learn how to set one up and use it.

[Nexaduro]

I said I controlled my shivering, not my body temperature.

 

And you simply don't use a dictionary to look up scientific terms, that's like checking the bible for material on ancient history.

 

And saying flesh is unaffected by temperature is like saying plant matter is, and why do you think bananas are stored at exactly 13°C? Biology is chemistry, and if there's something everyone ought to know about chemistry, it's the fact that a slight change of temperature can make a huge difference.

(Btw: Bananas are stored at exactlly 13°C because at that temperature, the ripening (aka. cellular decay) grinds to a near complete halt.)

Now I tend not to read what you write, because it encourages you to write shit like this, but didn't you just say that your skin should have been decaying at such low temperatures?

 

And then you provide an example of low temperatures preventing decay?

 

While humans are, indeed, damaged by overexposure to cold, and fruits generally keep longer at lower temperatures, don't you think pointing out both in quick succession rather undermines your point?

[The_Mather1]

Not cold, 13°C specifically. Any lower and they keep ripening.

 

Also I cannot set up a Tekkit server, as I barely have any internet speed here. I can however refer you to www.anembra.com / mc.anembra.com which is a server I'm playing on.

 

 

And yes, Alg, it is. By keeping a calm mind it is possible to override your lower brain functions.

[Alg]

And yes, Alg, it is. By keeping a calm mind it is possible to override your lower brain functions.

Citation?

[The_Mather1]

Personal experience.

Controlling your hormones can actually give quite a noticeable effect. Using natural painkillers you can achieve quite a high, and by stimulating the release of growth hormones and glucagon (and probably insulin) you'll notice a temperature change in your body as the increased activity increases the heat production.

[archimage_a]

Alg, citation:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001553.htm

 

 

Also, on the subject of Bananas=Humans:

Bananas are refrigerated to between 13.5 and 15 °C (56 and 59 °F) during transport. At lower temperatures, ripening permanently stalls, and turns the bananas gray as cell walls break down. The skin of ripe bananas quickly blackens in the 4 °C (39 °F) environment of a domestic refrigerator, although the fruit inside remains unaffected.

Basing Human Chemistry on one specific plant is foolish, but basing it on one specific plant's skin is even more foolish, and basing Human Chemistry on and incorrect understanding of one specific plant's skin is more foolish still.