Tip.It Times - 26th February 2012

[Tim]

The Neglected mid-level players article seems to forget the sheer amount of mid-level things to do compared to the low amount of high-level things to do.

You're also forgetting the amount of shit we have to deal with as a mid level player. We gain access to something to FINALLY make money to get higher level?

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer:

 

We get jumped by 130+ instead and get screwed over. you Have NO idea, how frustrating it is being stuck in the Mid tier. I cant afford decent gear, I cant afford decent levels, and I cant MAKE the money to do so, all to get shat over by higher leveled players who rob us of the ability to do so, despite them being wealthy and high leveled enough to do SOMETHING ELSE.

 

and as strilmus said, thats the EXACT thing, that [bleep]s us over. Sorry if im coming off abusive but this is the VERY thing that had made Runescape shit for me. If I even TRY to do something like Bandos GWD, I WILL get shat on by level 138's who could do something far better , but instead find it enjoyable to toy with us and [bleep] us over for their benefit, on that note, some of us might find Killing bosses to be both rewarding and FUN, grinding my fingers away on Iron is not. If I wanted to do that, I'd use a freaking bot.

 

There's patience, and there's getting shat on.

 

/rant.

 

Bring on the Rage/attacks/shenanigans etc. I've said what I wanted.

[Saradomin_Mage]

The Neglected mid-level players article seems to forget the sheer amount of mid-level things to do compared to the low amount of high-level things to do.

You're also forgetting the amount of shit we have to deal with as a mid level player. We gain access to something to FINALLY make money to get higher level?

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer:

 

We get jumped by 130+ instead and get screwed over. you Have NO idea, how frustrating it is being stuck in the Mid tier. I cant afford decent gear, I cant afford decent levels, and I cant MAKE the money to do so, all to get shat over by higher leveled players who rob us of the ability to do so, despite them being wealthy and high leveled enough to do SOMETHING ELSE.

 

and as strilmus said, thats the EXACT thing, that [bleep]s us over. Sorry if im coming off abusive but this is the VERY thing that had made Runescape shit for me. If I even TRY to do something like Bandos GWD, I WILL get shat on by level 138's who could do something far better , but instead find it enjoyable to toy with us and [bleep] us over for their benefit, on that note, some of us might find Killing bosses to be both rewarding and FUN, grinding my fingers away on Iron is not. If I wanted to do that, I'd use a freaking bot.

 

There's patience, and there's getting shat on.

 

/rant.

 

Bring on the Rage/attacks/shenanigans etc. I've said what I wanted.

Hop worlds.

You know, what those high levelled players did when they were mid levelled.

[Arceus]

Hopping worlds works fine...until the problem recurs ten minutes later.

[Kimberly]

We gain access to something to FINALLY make money to get higher level?

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer:

 

Flipping is available to all levels, and is a strong source of income for many of today's players. Dailies can net you almost 750k-2mil a day. Graahking nature runes can make you decent cash at the cost of 42 RCing and 57 summoning. Monster hunting, like killing Fiyr Shades for [item=3424], nets handy profit. Even converting sacred oils is a decent moneymaker. All mid-level and easily accessed content. And I didn't even scratch the surface.

 

I've seen you vilify higher level players repeatedly as some gigantic wall of China blocking your ability to make money and train skills when it's simply not true. Have you considered other moneymaking methods besides things like Bandos or Tormented Demons? It seems like that's the only thing that ever comes to mind for people anymore. It's saddening.

 

 

Hopping worlds works fine...until the problem recurs ten minutes later.

 

There are plenty of ways to make cash that don't involve direct competition. Even then, there are other money makers with low to moderate competition.

[Assume Nothing]

It seems that we have differing views of what the terminology refers to.

 

Could someone please objectively define terminology like 'mid-level', 'end-game', 'moderate competition', 'high competitiveness', etc. in non arbitrary/vague terms?

[Arceus]

...which one might loosely define as characters with combat levels around 50-70 and average skill levels about 25-40.

[DaveZZilla]

Could someone please objectively define terminology like 'mid-level', 'end-game', 'moderate competition', 'high competitiveness', etc. in non arbitrary/vague terms?

 

Sure, that's a good place for me to start. Generally, what I think of as mid-level content is in the 40-80 range, and 80+ is what I consider high level. I'm not suggesting that these should be the standard definitions, but at the very least you'll know what I'm thinking when I use the terms. Now let's get down to business.

 

In my opinion Jagex has been pretty so-so in the past about making any update worthwhile, and only in the last year or two have they begun to get their act together with high level content that is truly rewarding.

 

Tradeable potions at any level don't benefit players who gain the ability to mix them, as they can be bought and used for less money without bothering to get the required herblore level. The only reason you would train the skill was for bragging rights and maybe the odd quest requirement. Then extremes came out, and all of a sudden training herblore to those high levels was worth doing. Prayer and summoning are inherently rewarding for the same reason the new potions were a hit: you have to gain the required level to get the benefits of the skill. Smithing is an example to the contrary. Sure, you get to make new armor, but in reality rune armor is a reward for training defence, not smithing. All you're getting is another way to spend money.

 

Resource gathering is going to be trickier to balance out, because mid level resources benefit high level players far more than mid level players. But there are instances where it is done well because of artificial limits. Red sandstone is a good example of this. The mining and crafting exp you get there is not bad at all, nor is the finished product. If you could camp there all day, what would potion flasks be worth? Likewise, dailies like mtk are worthwhile because you can only do them once a day.

 

The same principles that made these high level updates successful can be applied to mid level content too. Mid level resources that are limited like red sandstone would prevent high levels from monopolizing them and so everyone could benefit. Mid level Untradeable items could be really great if they were done well. For instance, they could come out with a new slayer monster where the required weapon/item to defeat it was untradeable and had to be made with the smithing/fletching/crafting skill. If it had a nice drop (especially an untradeable drop) or the exp was pretty good at those levels, it would be worth the extra effort to gain levels in those other skills.

[Alg]

-list-

...Point taken :razz:

 

Short quest, not very satisfying, but very delicious exp rewards and the hunting minigame isn't that bad for exp.

True, but the thieving requirement in particular felt shoehorned in. Same kind of thing with ROTM (Though there is a slight quality difference); You need 76 mining... To mine one rock slide, and they even give you the pickaxe. And I still haven't figured out what the crafting requirement was for. Would the quest have been any different if you didn't need to mine that rock? It probably just wouldn't have taken as long, since you need to mine the rock every time you go back and forth through that area of Kethsi.

 

I think you've got it a bit wrong, unless you want Jagex to constantly be playing catch-up. It sort of needs to happen simultaneously, development for both average and high-level users. But that's extremely hard to do. In the past few years though they've been doing a decent job of balancing it though, and they don't really get credit for it.

 

I just can't agree that RuneScape has neglected mid-level players. Most of the game's foundation circled around producing mid-level content. In addition to that, the past couple of skills released included content from the bottom to the top (slayer, hunter, construction, farming, summoning, dungeoneering, ) and most of these recently released skills are beloved and highly utilized skills of the Runescape community. I realize there's a difference of opinions as to whether this content was successful and that's to be understood, but to say that they're neglecting them is presumptuous.

It seems like the problem is that, if they're neglecting mid-level players, it's with new content. Slayer, for example, hasn't really changed for low/mid (up to ~60) levels, but the skill has had numerous updates for levels 80+ recently. Dungeoneering, though, is a step in the right direction. If you're 70-80+, you can expect new content every few months. If you're 40-70, you're using the same gear that people have been using for the past 5 years, to do the same thing, but with more pressure to grind for longer because of the previously mentioned high level stuff.

[Assume Nothing]

...which one might loosely define as characters with combat levels around 50-70 and average skill levels about 25-40.

 

I'd say that's upper-tier low-level. Mid-level is closer to having average levels of approx 60-70, with combat levels of approx 90-110. Low level content aren't designed to be good, or efficient.

[Fallstar]

Mid level players have access to the bulk of the quests, all the minigames and a variety of money making methods. Green Dragons are still 500k/hr + even around level 70. Obviously the rewards for mid level activities are going to be less than those for 'high level' ones, as high level players have spent orders of magnitude longer working to reach those stats.

[Kimberly]

If you're 40-70, you're using the same gear that people have been using for the past 5 years, to do the same thing, but with more pressure to grind for longer because of the previously mentioned high level stuff.

 

I also can't really agree with that.

 

[set=head:11864,body:11866,legs:11865]

Grifolic armor, level 55 def and magic to wear, better than mystic (which is pretty mid-tier) with defence stats. Released November 2011

 

[set=head:11756,body:11760,legs:11758]

Akrisae armor, level 70 def to wear, great combination of pray and magic boost for longer trips. Released September 2011.

 

[set=weapon:11158]

Brackish Blade, 60 attack to wield and completion of A Clockwork Syringe. Cheap stab weapon below Zam spear. Released March 2011.

 

And this is with a very casual glance, I'm sure anyone who looks more detailed would find greater examples, too.

[Alg]

I also can't really agree with that.

Grifolic armor, level 55 def and magic to wear, better than mystic (which is pretty mid-tier) with defence stats. Released November 2011

 

Akrisae armor, level 70 def to wear, great combination of pray and magic boost for longer trips. Released September 2011.

 

Brackish Blade, 60 attack to wield and completion of A Clockwork Syringe. Cheap stab weapon below Zam spear. Released March 2011.

 

And this is with a very casual glance, I'm sure anyone who looks more detailed would find greater examples, too.

Grifolic/Brackish - True, forgot about those. Not sure if Akrisae would count though, you need ROTM finished to wear the set. Also inb4 dragon defender :razz:

[Kimberly]

Not sure if Akrisae would count though, you need ROTM finished to wear the set.

 

Oh god major derp on my part, you're absolutely right. Really embarassed.

 

I guess I'm trying to get at is two things: first, armor releases are pretty consistent, even if it's just one piece, every 3-4 months or so for all ranges; second, just because more armors and weapons are being released doesn't necessarily mean you'll see a change in the average player's play style. If we're talking about that sort of 'game changer' - off the top of my head being things like barrows, bandos, culi gloves, neit helms, drag defenders, chaotics - they don't come very often at all. We can go anywhere from 3 months to a year without seeing significant updates that change the average player's style. Like, off the top of my head, we had the release of the defenders (at the time only up to rune) and it took half a year until we saw barbarian assault released with the fighter's torso offering one of the best strength-boosting tops at the time.

 

It's not really that they neglect to do so for any individual group, it's just that they do try to consider balance and feasibility. Not to mention, they usually come with significant content releases. Things like big quests, minigames, and so on. We've seen a pretty big trend in high level content though over the past year. I think it's creating the illusion that there are groups being excluded, since these updates are practically torn apart in a frenzy of either love or hate by the almost exclusive mature and high leveled players that frequent fansites...or are simply the loudest.

[stonewall337]

Mid level players have access to everything that was once high level, just as in every/most MMO. /thread.

[Doctor Who]

For the mid-level debate it really comes down to what you consider mid-level if you think of it as 80-110, which id consider mid-level then there is small room to debate the idea that your Stuck in a rut between lower content and higher content but even then your going to have a hard time justifying your argument. If your talking about mid-level being 50-79ish as i think the author was. There is a simple reason as to why you may think there is a lack of content(there isnt) its because if your playing more than a few minutes a day your not going to be in that level range very long because your gaining levels so fast.

 

 

As for the article having to do with bots. I think it was an interesting way to look at the situation. And a well written article. I think the main idea was to just show a few parrallels between the WWII and RS, though correct me if im mistaken.

 

Both well written articles. Kudos

[Ts_Stormrage]

Not just that... I was actually trying to make people think about how destructive bots have been for runescape compared to how destructive ww2 was for europe...

[Doctor Who]

I see what you're getting at. Here is a topic. What was more destructive, bots or the removal of bots?

 

Personally, I believe it depends on when you started the game. Older players, I would guess, would say the influx of bots hurt the game more in terms of deflowering the game so to speak. While I would bet people who started playing while botting was prevalent might think that the removal of bots had a much bigger impact in terms of affecting them.

 

I dunno, maybe a stupid idea. Just some food for though

[Arceus]

It may be that haters are going to hate.

 

First, the older players trained skills essentially for free thanks to botted resources, and then anyone with sufficient capital stood to profit substantially when the suppliers of those resources died out, by buying them up.

[Vezon Dash]

I see what you're getting at. Here is a topic. What was more destructive, bots or the removal of bots?

 

If I were an author, I would write an article on this. It could be an interesting read if done right.

[Ts_Stormrage]

I see what you're getting at. Here is a topic. What was more destructive, bots or the removal of bots?

 

If I were an author, I would write an article on this. It could be an interesting read if done right.

Not really, cuz the conclusion is a given already... Anything leading to the contrary will pretty much automatically brand the author as a bot-apologist who now whines that his Dragon Bones cost too much, while they now reflect much more accurately the actual price...

[Assume Nothing]

Not by necessity. It's not really about what the author concludes - rather, it's about how to get there. The objective is to bring to light what should have been obvious in retrospect, but was not at the time.

 

I believe bot-destruction is more destructive than the bots themselves, to a certain extent. It does depend on context though.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Not by necessity. It's not really about what the author concludes - rather, it's about how to get there. The objective is to bring to light what should have been obvious in retrospect, but was not at the time.

 

I believe bot-destruction is more destructive than the bots themselves, to a certain extent. It does depend on context though.

 

I explored that avenue when writing the article you see published today...

 

The only reasons why the endlösung of bots is not destructive to the game as a whole are:

 

-Lack of news headlines - as there's no major victories for Jagex to achieve against these bots anymore, means that any "news" about RuneScape is not going to be as interesting, which means less exposure, which means less new players...

-Cheap skilling - already discussed in this and other threads, for obvious reasons (re-creation of the middle class)...

-Lack of a common enemy for fair players to rail against - leading to a fractioning RS community

 

When you see the benefits we got in return (provided they find a solution to kill the newly arisen epicbot program), you quickly realise that it is a small price to pay:

 

+Stable and fairer game overall

+More resources can be devoted to content development

+Less lag (current fps issue is not related to this)

[Kimberly]

+More resources can be devoted to content development

 

That's not true. They never stopped working on anti-bot measures and are preparing the next batches of small bot-breaking things as well as projects like Bot-Nuke and Optimus. Bot memberships are still being 'recycled' back into their bottom-lines and they're still there. No one ever spun their chair from one desk to another to say, "Well I'm done breaking bots, let's go make a quest." They're two different things entirely and until we have information to the contrary, that's a faulty assumption.

 

+Less lag (current fps issue is not related to this)

 

Also untrue, partially anyway.

 

Those misconceptions that you see there are the exact reason why an article like that might be interesting, but the author would have to be willing to actually research it instead of drawing upon his own knowledge, which already demonstrated by yourself might be flawed.

[Ts_Stormrage]

It's not an assumption, several Jagex people said at RuneFest that getting rid of the bots would eventually free up some hands... It may not have happened yet, but it will eventually...

 

And by less lag I meant that your screen will look like its frozen for a bit when one yew tree is cut down and all bots move to the next... This being one of many examples, of course...

[Jonanananas]

Well es epicbot has proven(and tbh was obvious from the start) they'll never be "rid" of bots. They have to keep developing to keep ahead of bots. I mean, look at it now. Not even half a year after the bot nuke, we can expect the anti-bot dev group has been working as had as before, yet bots are already prevalent again, making up maybe not the majority but already a sizable portion of players online again.