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Tip.It Times - 26th February 2012


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#1
tripsis
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Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

EDITORIAL PANEL DISCUSSION THREAD:
This thread is for discussing and debating the week's articles. If you would like to comment on the overall structure or direction of the Editorial Panel, please use the discussion topic in the Website Discussion forum.

I'd like to remind people of the rules pertaining to Times threads:

Read these rules before posting in this thread


When replying please make sure to clarify the article you are replying to! Thanks!

If you spot any typos or mistakes in the article then please PM them to tripsis :)

Enjoy the articles!
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#2
Zerker_Jane
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The Neglected mid-level players article seems to forget the sheer amount of mid-level things to do compared to the low amount of high-level things to do.
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#3
The_Fray
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The Neglected mid-level players article seems to forget the sheer amount of mid-level things to do compared to the low amount of high-level things to do.

I agree with this, Jagex have just in the past few years started adding high level content to the game. There already is a lot of content that mid levels have access to. I also disagree that Deadliest Catch had high requirements, 70 fishing is not a high level requirement.

#4
Alg
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The Neglected mid-level players article seems to forget the sheer amount of mid-level things to do compared to the low amount of high-level things to do.

Now look at how many mid-level things are actually worth doing... It isn't about quantity, it's about quality :razz:
Numbers don't really mean much when most of the mid level content has been abandoned since its release because of how useless it is. It's hard to get excited about training slayer when your new unlock is molanisks. After that point you'd think "Okay, how long before this skill becomes worth training?" and see monsters in the mid-80s... At which point you cancel your RS subscription and start playing [FPS of the week] because you don't want to spend hundreds of hours waiting for the game to start being fun.

#5
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The Neglected mid-level players article seems to forget the sheer amount of mid-level things to do compared to the low amount of high-level things to do.

Now look at how many mid-level things are actually worth doing... It isn't about quantity, it's about quality :razz:
Numbers don't really mean much when most of the mid level content has been abandoned since its release because of how useless it is. It's hard to get excited about training slayer when your new unlock is molanisks. After that point you'd think "Okay, how long before this skill becomes worth training?" and see monsters in the mid-80s... At which point you cancel your RS subscription and start playing [FPS of the week] because you don't want to spend hundreds of hours waiting for the game to start being fun.


Mid-level players have both quality and quantity. They have the bulk of the game.
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#6
deskjethp
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Interesting parallels article... Not much to disagree with there.. plus it has the word plutocracy! :D
Except: What is this boss hunting = all / skilling = nothing bit?


I'm not even done with the mid level article yet but have to start commenting. It seems to make a lot of assumptions...

However! The more important part:

It not only irks me because of boredom, but also raises the question of what the low-levels are going to do in the transitional phase of becoming a mid-level player.


shortly followed by

Remember yourself before you had the dilemma of which skill cape to wear, or before your purchase of a POH with a dungeon and a demon butler. Remember the mid-levels, everyone, because you were once there as well.


What are mid level players going to do? What did mid level players do before? Hmm... Back when the map was half the size it is now, there was plenty to do and people somehow managed to become "high levels" ... and now there's more to do than there was then... so .. if people managed to get through and not be bored then, it must certainly be possible now...

#7
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Interesting parallels article... Not much to disagree with there.. plus it has the word plutocracy! :D
Except: What is this boss hunting = all / skilling = nothing bit?


I'm not even done with the mid level article yet but have to start commenting. It seems to make a lot of assumptions...

However! The more important part:

It not only irks me because of boredom, but also raises the question of what the low-levels are going to do in the transitional phase of becoming a mid-level player.


shortly followed by

Remember yourself before you had the dilemma of which skill cape to wear, or before your purchase of a POH with a dungeon and a demon butler. Remember the mid-levels, everyone, because you were once there as well.


What are mid level players going to do? What did mid level players do before? Hmm... Back when the map was half the size it is now, there was plenty to do and people somehow managed to become "high levels" ... and now there's more to do than there was then... so .. if people managed to get through and not be bored then, it must certainly be possible now...



He seems to be mostly complaining about Jagex actually making updates for high-level players.
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#8
Alg
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Mid-level players have both quality and quantity. They have the bulk of the game.

Instead of repeating yourself, would you mind actually listing some quality mid-level content? I'll be waiting over here. :mrgreen:

#9
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The end-game is far superior to the mid-level game. In RuneScape, it really isn't about the journey there - it's about the destination. In terms of bosshunting, I can list next to no 'exciting' monsters.

I guess you can argue that mid-level dungeoneering at approx level 90+ is quality content. It is a bit limited in scope though, I must admit.

#10
Ts_Stormrage
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Interesting parallels article... Not much to disagree with there.. plus it has the word plutocracy! :D
Except: What is this boss hunting = all / skilling = nothing bit?


Glad you liked it :) I attempted to point out that Bots have been as destructive to RS as WW2 has been to the world... Some parts were unaffected, but everyone has been confronted with it one way or another...

As for your question, I was referring to the methods of moneymaking where seemingly only 1 sort of occupation is a good method of gathering wealth... I wouldn't say that it is comparable to the 1% vs the 99% movement, but you get the idea...

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#11
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Perhaps it is my lack of expertise or knowledge regarding the mid-level content; but to me with very few exceptions I don't have anything that I consider really fun, the best monsters I can hunt are terrible money makers or experience (Aviasies are the exception; but even then they aren't exactly good), I continue to grind because I want to become a high level player, I want to be able to say "I want to kill some bosses" and be able to do that, to actually be able to do a Quest as soon as it is released, etc.

I don't ask for all new content to be centred to mid-level players as I believe that we are the minority (I almost always see people with CBL in the low hundreds) and it would be unfair to the backbone of the current RS community; but a bone thrown in our direction sometimes would be really nice, perhaps a boss monsters that would be extremely easy for high level players; but to us with less and worse gear, with less skills, it would prove a challenge and would reward us accodingly.

I really don't know what else to say; but these are my views on the issue.

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#12
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Problem with making rewarding content for midrange players is that high level players like to barge into those areas and declare themselves ruler by force, while the bots nip at your feet to make the area as unprofitable as possible.

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#13
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I know, that kind of stuff is mostly wishful thinking on my part, I guess there could be some measures to avoid high level players entry (like the proverbial sign "No player of higher combat level than X allowed to enter" or something like that) though I am pretty sure many people would complain and that still doesn't do anything against bots.

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#14
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Mid-level players have both quality and quantity. They have the bulk of the game.

Instead of repeating yourself, would you mind actually listing some quality mid-level content? I'll be waiting over here. :mrgreen:

Temple Trekking
Great Orb project
Artisan's Workshop
Barbarian Assault
Conquest
Gnome Delivery
Mage Training Arena
Pest Control
Pyramid Plunder
Soul Wars
Stealing Creation

All of these are quality mid level content, and I just went through all minigames to get these. If you are finding a lack of mid level content then you obviously have not looked very hard. Just because Gnome Delivery may not be as good of a money earner as glacors doesn't mean its bad. If you expect to earn 4mil/hr at mid levels then I am sorry but no one can help you. There is an abundance of mid level/low level content but people's standards are a lot higher than 800k/hr. I personally spent hundreds of hours at Great Orb Project while earning mediocre cash but I did it because I enjoyed it and I still play the minigame.

If I look outside of minigames, there are quite a lot of quests that are geared towards mid levels. You decide what is worth doing and what is not. Just because a minigame has been abandoned by some does not mean you should not try it.

#15
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-list-

All of these are quality mid level content, and I just went through all minigames to get these. If you are finding a lack of mid level content then you obviously have not looked very hard. Just because Gnome Delivery may not be as good of a money earner as glacors doesn't mean its bad. If you expect to earn 4mil/hr at mid levels then I am sorry but no one can help you. There is an abundance of mid level/low level content but people's standards are a lot higher than 800k/hr. I personally spent hundreds of hours at Great Orb Project while earning mediocre cash but I did it because I enjoyed it and I still play the minigame.

If I look outside of minigames, there are quite a lot of quests that are geared towards mid levels. You decide what is worth doing and what is not. Just because a minigame has been abandoned by some does not mean you should not try it.

None of which addresses the points brought up by the article. :-|
Nobody's asking for something as good for moneymaking as Glacors, they're asking for skill rewards and training methods that aren't garbage. Look at herblore: Yes, you can make many of the potions that you'd need, but it's almost always cheaper to just sell the herb and buy potions, and training is ridiculously expensive because high/elite levels are doing the same thing with the same methods. It doesn't help that mid-level players have to compete with either high levels or bots for most of the good moneymaking methods available to them, making the process even more tedious (You could kill dragons, but the botting issue there is fairly well-documented, or you could kill DKs [Which I was able to do at around level 90], but good luck doing so when you have to compete with a player that has 40-50 combat levels on you and the best gear money can buy).

Clearly, Jagex noticed that there aren't any high level rewards, that's why they're shoehorning high requirements into everything (Say what you want about the requirements of Deadliest Catch, that horrible excuse for a quest is/was the worst offender. ROTM's 76 mining requirement wasn't much better and what did that quest even require crafting for?). I'd just like to know when they'll realize that the part of the game that leads up to being high level needs to be tweaked as well.

#16
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One could artificially put high level players onto the same playing field as med level players by placing a handicap on them in the form of restricting their damage, gear, and stats within a specific area. For example, a new area could cut all combat stats to level 50, disallow any armor with higher requirements, and reduce maximum lifepoints and prayer points to 500. Another deterrent could involve sharply reducing or eliminating XP gain from normal combat inside these areas, with the idea that high level players would be unable to quench their thirst for XP and hence choose voluntarily not to dominate the spot.

Similarly, one could elevate med level players to higher level players, although requirements for armor and weapons may prove more difficult to deal with.

However, player sentiment and the amount of coding required seems to render such changes infeasible for the time being.

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#17
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I think the main problem with the Mid-Level article is that it brings up little-to-no points that can possibly be discussed directly, meaning we'll simply argue about whether content is "fun" or not. I have to agree with the aforementioned fact that all us "high levels" have been there, done that... a point used in the article to try to suggest we must empathise with these people. However, the game still has precisely the same things it did when we were "younger" plus more; surely a profit can be seen here, to have fallen upon these newer players. The largest problem has to be, as far as I can tell, that they are indeed seeing the high level content as something they should be able to acquire, or something that should seem within reach. Why should a player with only <76 mining be able to do ROTM? One has to grind a little before they can step into perhaps the most fun quest the game has to offer; it's a grandmaster quest, not a Grandmedium-leveled-player quest.

As for the idea of mid-leveled bosses, why not introduce untradable drops? That way the higher levels, unless lured by new aesthetically pleasing items, would have very little reason to go there.

I personally fail to see the difference between playing Runescape as a high level player and playing at a lower one. I'd still enjoy it due to liking the game. Yes, i accept that nostalgia perhaps makes my mid-leveled years seem more thrilling than they actually were, but atleast there were things to explore that were completely new to me; "without all of your knowledge of the game's intricacies" Surely this is a source of great excitement which urges one to play the game more? The same reason goes for not using guides for quests, or running along on the day of a new dungeon's opening to have a gander, rather than waiting for a wiki or a fellow tifer to write a guide. Had we always known everything about the game - including how many things there were that were out of our grasp - would we all be here now? I doubt it.

The only sound advice I could give is that if you're feeling you're left out, forgotten or simply "used" for your subscription money, and that it's due to being lower leveled than others, I can assure you the feeling doesn't go away. Being level 130 is hardly different to being level 70, you're still looking at people with red names and cursing them under your breath. I'm 137 atm, I often look at a 138 and think "Damn you and your different digit" But then I realise that I'm lagging behind because I had lots of fun as a level ~90 killing kurasks for no apparent reason, or running around Musa Point trying out different weapons on scorpions.

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#18
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Awesome article TS_Stormrage. I always look forward to what you write, as I am always assured of a well written piece, even if I don't always agree with the premise. I would like to point out that I don't think the compassion between WWII and an online MMO holds any real validity, as one could simply say then that anytime one takes longer to give up then another it links to WWII, the point is at least gotten across. I am simply pointing out I don't believe the link is valid.

This week's article on the bot nuke was interesting. Although, as a pre-law major, I don't believe Jagex had any legal grounds to sue iBot (Or at least none under the access portion of the DMCA) I can agree that making a strong stance against bots and botters was needed.

On the the "added value to farming" bit. UGG just no. There is still an inextricable link between material prices and farming. As mats go up in value, adding to their value to farm, so does the cost to train skills. There is no real benefit. Its roughly a zero sum gain. Look at a comparison in WoW. When ore was 40g/stack I could sell gems for 150g/ea and profit. Now that ore is 100g+ a stack, I have to sell gems for 320g+ to make less of a profit. Levering costs more even whilst farming provides more income.

Now onto the manipulation part, RS really needs to decide how to handle this. An excellent IRL friend of mine is a anti-trust lawyer, and its always interesting listening to stories about what qualifies as a monopoly, and the like. Clear guidelines need to be set, or else Jagex needs to decide to take NO interference in the market. Either way would have interesting outcomes. When the "middle class" players decide to hold onto their goods until the price is right, its ultmatly irrelevant. The rich can afford to wait. The middle class/ poor can not. The middle class, IMHO, will never control the market.


On to the 2nd article.

REALLY? Most of the content in the game is accessible to the mid level player. Maybe they can't solo GWD, but they can do it. Maybe they can't solo DKS, but they can duo. Maybe they can't slay abbey demons, but they can camp for black masks or snap seeds like I used too.

All in the all, the articles premise was simply demonstrably false. There is a well known dearth of true, end game content. Such is not the case with low and mid level players. If nothing else, in most games and almost all MMOs, the true gameplay is at max level.

The problem is not what the author states it as. The author is simply wrong when he says "This problem does not involve merely a lack of content for these mid-level players, but specifically a failure to create new content for them. " No. The problem is most of the mid level content is out of date. Temple trecking, temple repair, shade slaying, low level slayer (sub 80) crafting professions, monster hunting (KBD, KQ, Chaos ele, etc) and the list goes on and on.

This is even more true, however, for higher levels. You see, mid levels have end game content to look forward too. Once a high level players get past a point, however, it is no longer feasible to continue to engage in certain activities unless they find it "fun". Its simply not efficient, and I know many people enjoy doing efficient things to progress themselves faster.

TO summerize, Jagex needs to fix mid level rewards to make them more useful and profitable, not add more that will quickly fall by the wayside. I am with ALG in this.

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#19
The_Fray
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-list-

All of these are quality mid level content, and I just went through all minigames to get these. If you are finding a lack of mid level content then you obviously have not looked very hard. Just because Gnome Delivery may not be as good of a money earner as glacors doesn't mean its bad. If you expect to earn 4mil/hr at mid levels then I am sorry but no one can help you. There is an abundance of mid level/low level content but people's standards are a lot higher than 800k/hr. I personally spent hundreds of hours at Great Orb Project while earning mediocre cash but I did it because I enjoyed it and I still play the minigame.

If I look outside of minigames, there are quite a lot of quests that are geared towards mid levels. You decide what is worth doing and what is not. Just because a minigame has been abandoned by some does not mean you should not try it.

None of which addresses the points brought up by the article. :-|
Nobody's asking for something as good for moneymaking as Glacors, they're asking for skill rewards and training methods that aren't garbage. Look at herblore: Yes, you can make many of the potions that you'd need, but it's almost always cheaper to just sell the herb and buy potions, and training is ridiculously expensive because high/elite levels are doing the same thing with the same methods. It doesn't help that mid-level players have to compete with either high levels or bots for most of the good moneymaking methods available to them, making the process even more tedious (You could kill dragons, but the botting issue there is fairly well-documented, or you could kill DKs [Which I was able to do at around level 90], but good luck doing so when you have to compete with a player that has 40-50 combat levels on you and the best gear money can buy).

I wasn't discussing the article, I was simply mentioning that there is enough "quality" mid level content. There are many other ways to make money beside dragons and DKs. If you find the best methods of money making methods far too crowded, there are alternatives. They may not be as good but they are still good enough. For example I did Runecrafting for most of my money, it wasn't the best money maker but it did fund 95 prayer and 98 herblore for me.

#20
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Just btw to everyone, Epicbot is back up and running, so do expect to see people botting around runescape :S





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