Anonymous Threaten Canadian GP

[sees_all1]

Just because you're okay with being ripped off doesn't mean everyone else should just bend over.

 

Also, while it's normal for Americans to spend 35k/year (I hope that's neither an undergrad degree nor lib arts), that's obnoxious everywhere else. Blame your government for preferring to spend your tax money on wars and armies than education or health care.

How do you justify forcing other people to pay for your education? Why do you deserve their money more than them?

 

Except that I'm not forcing other people to pay for my education. Do you go to a private university?

Are people volunteering to pay? Do they choose to send a check in to the government? Where does tax payer money come from anyway?

 

Can you make an argument instead of inane questions?

The argument is, people are forced to pay taxes. Taxes aren't voluntary. Forcing people to pay taxes and then using tax money for education is forcing people to pay for other people's education, also known as redistribution of wealth, or legalized theft.

 

The selfish, and entitled argument that I shouldn't have to pay for my rising education costs (and instead taxpayers) is basically saying I deserve other people's money more than they do.

[Omar]

I would tend to say that in order for two people of different social extraction to make the same amount of money (barring governmental intervention), one of them has to work more... even on a meritocratic basis redistribution makes sense. That being said as far as I can tell the tuition hike issue is BS, but I can't tell very far.

[obfuscator]

I don't mind the government subsidizing private education - I think it's beneficial for society. But the fact is that quebec has already been subsidizing it far too much and simply can't afford to continue doing it.

[Faux]

The argument is, people are forced to pay taxes. Taxes aren't voluntary. Forcing people to pay taxes and then using tax money for education is forcing people to pay for other people's education, also known as redistribution of wealth, or legalized theft.

 

The selfish, and entitled argument that I shouldn't have to pay for my rising education costs (and instead taxpayers) is basically saying I deserve other people's money more than they do.

 

Except it's not. It's an argument where "I want my government to stop being corrupt".

[sees_all1]

The argument is, people are forced to pay taxes. Taxes aren't voluntary. Forcing people to pay taxes and then using tax money for education is forcing people to pay for other people's education, also known as redistribution of wealth, or legalized theft.

 

The selfish, and entitled argument that I shouldn't have to pay for my rising education costs (and instead taxpayers) is basically saying I deserve other people's money more than they do.

 

Except it's not. It's an argument where "I want my government to stop being corrupt".

You mean like stop caving to special interests? :rolleyes:

[Sinkhan]

I think the whole issue here is that while Quebec students actually pay lower tuition fees for secondary education than just about anywhere else in Canada (by a fair amount actually), long ago there was a promise that tuition would eventually be free. People hung on to that very tightly, but obviously the provincial government can't sustain it. Students are seeing it as a betrayal of trust, a costly one at that while things aren't exactly 100% recovered from the recession.

 

But due to the first point, I can't really sympathize with their cause.

[highlanders]

All told, I spend about $35,000 a year on education. Can anyone tell me why people act like entitled jerks? Why do people think they shouldn't have to pay for their own costs?

Shouldn't you be outraged that you're paying 35k/year rather than hating on people who pay less?

 

The Quebec students are fighting hard for every inch, they've been going at it for months and not giving in. If the gov had their way the prices would be higher but they know they can't [bleep] with the students - they'd never let them get away with it.

 

While students in other countries have bent over to paying ridiculous prices and are being trapped in an endless wheel of debt. You're the ones that should be up in arms doing something but you're not. If anything there's a lesson about spirit to be taken away from this. Maybe if you got angry a little more often you would actually change something.

 

I guess you missed my post about the government being 250 billion in debt?

 

Really, it's a choice for the students. Pay more now and continue to get some subsidy, or continue to be over-subsidized until the government goes bankrupt and stops subsidizing completely.

 

Not missed, I wasn't going to reply to you to begin with. But if you want to know, I pretty much ignored your comment because you're clueless.

 

The gov has been trying to erase the debt for 20 years. They never actually managed to erase any, but they broke even on many years. In recent years the debt has been slowly growing, but nothing significant, they've changed the way they tally the debt so it appears worse than it actually is. In 1970 the debt was zero. The debt comes from the 1970s and 1980s when the gov was spending wildly on various services and programs. Basically the generation from the 1970s led a nice comfortable life and now the current generation is paying for the follies of the previous generation. Due to the interest alone it's unlikely the gov will ever erase the debt, best they can do is keep it under control like they've been doing by breaking even.

 

The debt has 0 relevance to university subsidy. In Quebec a middle-class citizen will see roughly 50% of their income taken away by various taxes. That's the money that's being used to run universities. Education doesn't actually use up a lot of the money. Most of the money is used up by health care, the population is aging and sick, the hospitals are full.

 

The gov doesn't need more money from students. The main problem, unsurprisingly for a society where the gov takes away and controls nearly half of your money, is that the money is not being managed properly.

[Gradeskip]

The argument is, people are forced to pay taxes. Taxes aren't voluntary. Forcing people to pay taxes and then using tax money for education is forcing people to pay for other people's education, also known as redistribution of wealth, or legalized theft.

 

The selfish, and entitled argument that I shouldn't have to pay for my rising education costs (and instead taxpayers) is basically saying I deserve other people's money more than they do.

 

Except it's not. It's an argument where "I want my government to stop being corrupt".

You mean like stop caving to special interests? :rolleyes:

If you lived here, you'd know how corrupted the government is. You aren't the best because you pay more, stop being jealous of others who try to live in a better society.

 

When the United Nations, Amnesty International and "Le barreau du Québec" (group of 20k+ judges/lawyers/) all agree the Bill 78 is against Human's most Fundamental Rights, there's a problem somewhere.

 

Ive been in the subject for months, informing myself for hours daily because its so important here, and HATE most posts I see on this topic, this is reallyyyy sad.

 

Anonymous' vids explaining why they act like such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhhO_RLIWPg&

For all of you who can't speak french, be glad youtube has put english subtitles lol.

[obfuscator]

 

The gov has been trying to erase the debt for 20 years. They never actually managed to erase any, but they broke even on many years. In recent years the debt has been slowly growing, but nothing significant, they've changed the way they tally the debt so it appears worse than it actually is. In 1970 the debt was zero. The debt comes from the 1970s and 1980s when the gov was spending wildly on various services and programs. Basically the generation from the 1970s led a nice comfortable life and now the current generation is paying for the follies of the previous generation. Due to the interest alone it's unlikely the gov will ever erase the debt, best they can do is keep it under control like they've been doing by breaking even.

 

Break even when the debt increases by 10 billion a year? Good plan. That definitely sounds like a sustainable long-term solution.

 

The debt has 0 relevance to university subsidy. In Quebec a middle-class citizen will see roughly 50% of their income taken away by various taxes. That's the money that's being used to run universities. Education doesn't actually use up a lot of the money. Most of the money is used up by health care, the population is aging and sick, the hospitals are full.

 

The gov doesn't need more money from students. The main problem, unsurprisingly for a society where the gov takes away and controls nearly half of your money, is that the money is not being managed properly.

 

The debt has enormous relevance to university subsidy. The government doesn't need money specifically from students, they need money, period. And when there's an area in which your spending has been far too high, it's fiscally prudent to try to curb that...hence the tuition increase.

 

Don't get me wrong - the tuition increase will not fix Quebec's debt problem. But it's one of many things that need be done.

[Randox]

All told, I spend about $35,000 a year on education. Can anyone tell me why people act like entitled jerks? Why do people think they shouldn't have to pay for their own costs?

Shouldn't you be outraged that you're paying 35k/year rather than hating on people who pay less?

 

The Quebec students are fighting hard for every inch, they've been going at it for months and not giving in. If the gov had their way the prices would be higher but they know they can't [bleep] with the students - they'd never let them get away with it.

 

While students in other countries have bent over to paying ridiculous prices and are being trapped in an endless wheel of debt. You're the ones that should be up in arms doing something but you're not. If anything there's a lesson about spirit to be taken away from this. Maybe if you got angry a little more often you would actually change something.

I guess the question becomes what gives the students who are upset the right to be violent in their protests, and to bar other students from being able to get an education, causing them to lose the term (and about 6 grand, and possibly their scholarships as well). And democracy doesn't mean you get what you want. It means the majority gets what they want (ideally, though not always in practice). When the majority says no, you've had your say, and its time to accept it and move on.

 

I have no issue with the protests in an of themselves, aside from the part where they didn't stop when it became clear that the only people who cared were a portion (lets say half) of the student body and literally no one else. At least, the rest of the students didn't care enough to stop (trying) to go to school, and the rest of the province told them to shut up. At this point, its become a matter of democratic principle. If the government caves, then they proved they will yeild before what is essentially a group of bullies. They. Can't. Yeild. The protests have now backed the government into a corner where their only choice is to arrest everyone to prevent civil unrest.

 

And the violence was never justified. My support for any cause is void when people resort to violence like that. And as I already said, the part where they barred other students from their exams is beyond despicable.

 

 

And speaking of anonymous, all they are is a bunch of bullies. To me, it doesn't matter if they are supporting the students, or protesting an actual worthy cause. I don't like bullies, and I will never support them or their methods.

[Sbrideau]

Also, another thing I think is idiot about the students protesting, is the fact that they not only lost a term, but pretty much a year of study (and the money that gets spent with it). There's a reason so many Quebeckers come study in N-B, even if the tuition fees for university are minimum $ 7000, while it's $2500 in Québec.

[Gradeskip]

Also, another thing I think is idiot about the students protesting, is the fact that they not only lost a term, but pretty much a year of study (and the money that gets spent with it). There's a reason so many Quebeckers come study in N-B, even if the tuition fees for university are minimum $ 7000, while it's $2500 in Québec.

Not a single student lost their semester/year, stop talking since you aren't informed.

 

And it's normal that some students from Quebec that live close to N-B go study there, since many people prefere to go to university while still living with their parents, which comes much cheaper for food, housing, etc. In the end, the price is about the same if you consider everything. That's the reason why many of my friends decide to go study at the Ottawa University, since it's really close from where I live.

[Kaida23]

Sorry Gradeskip, I've got to agree with Randox on this one. The protesters lost a lot of support from people both in and out of Quebec the second the protest became violent and they stopped other students from going to school. Corrupt government and mismanagement of taxes or not (how long have they been trying to complete highway 50 between Gatineau and Montreal?), this is not the way to bring about positive change.

 

I agree that the students should be allowed to protest, it's in Section 2 of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms - the freedom of peaceful assembly. "PEACEFUL" assembly. That's not what's happening. Also, ironically, they're denying other students the very education they say they are protesting to protect.

 

Finally, I don't understand why anyone is surprised that Bill 78 is bordering on unconstitutional. Quebec's language laws have been nothing short of draconian for over 30 years so this kind of thing is nothing new.

[Faux]

Finally, I don't understand why anyone is surprised that Bill 78 is bordering on unconstitutional. Quebec's language laws have been nothing short of draconian for over 30 years so this kind of thing is nothing new.

 

So that makes it okay?

[Jonanananas]

While I don't share the sentiment that students shouldn't protest tuiton fees just because they're better off than others, I don't like the actions of Anonymus either. When you're protesting, you have to make sure you don't hurt anyone, and especiall not those who aren't even involved in the conflict. Attacking F1 in bahrain at least made a bit of sense. Attacking them here does not, at all.

[Kaida23]

Finally, I don't understand why anyone is surprised that Bill 78 is bordering on unconstitutional. Quebec's language laws have been nothing short of draconian for over 30 years so this kind of thing is nothing new.

So that makes it okay?

Of course it doesn't make it okay. I was merely commenting on how this kind of things seems to be the rule rather than the exception.

[obfuscator]

@Gradeskip: Bit of a strong statement to say that no student lost their semester. I'm sure a lot of students have suffered in terms of marks by not being able to attend all their classes...

 

As for bill 78: I agree in that it's unconstitutional, but if the protests hadn't become violent in the first place it never would have been necessary.

[Omar]

I don't mind the government subsidizing private education - I think it's beneficial for society. But the fact is that quebec has already been subsidizing it far too much and simply can't afford to continue doing it.

I agree that if Quebec has been spending too much on education and can't get the money from anywhere else (like the US government could from military expenses for example), they should reduce their subsidies. I'm just making a general argument for redistribution. In an ideal state, there would be no need, but being a self-made man in the US is significantly harder than it should be.

[Cowman_133]

Personally violent protests/riots drive me nuts. I can get behind peaceful protests and I have been a part of many myself for a variety of different things. But as soon as things start to get violent, no matter what the cause, I cannot put myself behind it. Two wrongs cannot make a right. While I do not agree with the need to protest a tuition hike, I respect the right to protest it, but violence is so unnecessary and gives the government reason to take action against the protesting because they're causing harm. I'm the kind of person that cannot watch footage of riots and good stuff being destroyed for no valid reason - it actually physically pains me to see those actions.

 

That being said, I will admit I have not read a whole lot on bill 78 but regardless I think violent protest against anything is unnecessary and a waste of everybody's time, especially the citizens (students particularly here) who are being affected even though they don't want anything to do with the protests.

[The_Gabe]

Two wrongs cannot make a right.

 

 

3 wrongs make a right

 

[Sbrideau]

Also, another thing I think is idiot about the students protesting, is the fact that they not only lost a term, but pretty much a year of study (and the money that gets spent with it). There's a reason so many Quebeckers come study in N-B, even if the tuition fees for university are minimum $ 7000, while it's $2500 in Québec.

Not a single student lost their semester/year, stop talking since you aren't informed.

 

And it's normal that some students from Quebec that live close to N-B go study there, since many people prefere to go to university while still living with their parents, which comes much cheaper for food, housing, etc. In the end, the price is about the same if you consider everything. That's the reason why many of my friends decide to go study at the Ottawa University, since it's really close from where I live.

Just repeating what I see in the news.

 

Also, I fail to see how people close to N-B go to university in N-B to stay with their parents since the closest university (or the one I went to my friend's graduation) is 3 hours away from the Québec border. There is a college in a small city close to the border (20 mins) though and that's probably the guys you're talking about.

 

If you want to explain more to me, you can do it in private, and you can write it in french if it works better for you, when in the PM.

[The Dark Lord]

All told, I spend about $35,000 a year on education.

 

 

 

Why shouldn't society invest in education (for smart people at least)? Based on your rants about self-entitlement, it seems that you are also completely against student loans because you believe that everyone must pay out of pocket. How do you expect there to be enough doctors, lawyers, etc. if everyone must work full-time while at the same time being a full-time student (in addition to other obligations, such as a family)? For many people, especially those with lower income, it's hard enough to pay for tuition in addition to living expenses (even with financial aid). If society expects to benefit from future doctors, lawyers, etc., I do not think it is unreasonable to help finance higher education (at least for the hard-working, intelligent students).

[Sbrideau]

Wow, now even the UN is talking against the bill 78. (source in french though http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/actualites/politique/201205/31/01-4530464-que-lonu-se-mele-des-vraies-crises-replique-quebec.php)

 

The province of Québec is putting themselves at shame, especially with that law, which 700+ people have already been arrested for.

[Giordano]

Any law that forces protests to be consented by both sides is just laughable. Protests are meant to be annoying, disruptive, and financially/politically dangerous to the intended target.

[Kaida23]

To a certain extent, yes. However, they are not supposed to be physically dangerous/destructive to everyone else. At that point it's no longer a protest, it's a riot.