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Weapons, Speed, Damage and Abilities


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19 replies to this topic

#1
chenw
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Since the dawn of EoC, I have always pondered if every melee weapon from the same tier does the same damage. After doing much digging, I have decided that the information is best found by myself. I got several pairs of Dragon and Rune Weapons and smacked them a few times on the dummy. How did I test the dps?

I didn't, all I did was test the max hit. If a weapon's max hit is higher than another, then its dps is, naturally, higher, if everything else (Rotation, accuracy, no auto attacks, etc) would also be higher.

How do I test Max hit? By hitting a critical strike with an ability. Hitting a critical strike with an Ability will always inflict the maximum possible damage from that weapon, the image proofs lie in the hide tags.

Note: all following critical strike were performed without any prayer or potions, and with 99 strength



Result: Ability crits are always the same, given the exact same weapons, stats, prayers


After some testing, I have decided to test weapon damage from Crits achieved by using Punish (as conveniently it hits for exactly 100% weapon damage at crit)

The following weapons were used:

Rune Claw, Rune Long Sword, Rune Battleaxe, Rune 2h Sword
Dragon Scimitar, Dragon Long Sword, Dragon Battleaxe, Dragon 2h

Perculiarly enough, the results doesn't show what we always assumed... the weapons do not all do the same damage on the same tier...



For one handed weapons, slower weapons are actually better, though the margin is quite small (of the order of around 1% between best and worst)

I will post my findings with regards, to DW, and 2h tomorrow, but it follows largely the same pattern.

Also, Dual wield weapons do NOT depend on Tier, it depends on Normalised weapon damage, which, under nearly every circumstance, would have been the same as tier, but EE is the only, and one major exception. In short, EE's damage is 'real' (as in equipping it does improve your damage by what it says on the description).

Lastly, Mixing different weapon speeds of the same tier has a very small effect on damage.

tim_chenw2.png
6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)


#2
Sinkhan
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I think it's worthwhile to investigate normal AA crits to confirm the claims that AAs crit differently from abilities.

See if your data corroborates or conflicts with cookmeplox's information

They don't actually go over their method and just make some claims, but some of the mechanics mentioned (such as the 1% difference between faster and slower weapons) seems to agree with your own findings.

#3
Het_Volk
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Does weapon damage (example: chaotic maul: 1728) only work on auto-attacks?
Also thank you very much for making this

Posted ImagePosted Image


#4
Leon S
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Weapon damage is balanced around their required level. So, tier 60 weapons will deal the exact same DPS at level 60.

Does weapon damage (example: chaotic maul: 1728) only work on auto-attacks?
Also thank you very much for making this


No, it applies to abilities too.

#5
chenw
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EE is a major exception to the tiering rule (The tiering rule is applicable pretty much for every other weapon, barring that one) because its base damage is higher than what it should have been. It has the damage of a Fast T70, but speed of fastest, making the damage of EE inflated by a good 25%, recalculating that based on tiers, its around T87 ~ T89, or, if you will, if it is not Drygore, it's not better than EE, if it is, it's only marginally better.

tim_chenw2.png
6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)


#6
Tui
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rounding errors.

abils:
100% fastest 80% fast 66% average 50% slowest 40% magic in dg

diff abils will have diff rounding errors

pray is 1.2x iirc, though usually closer to 1.185 approx for some reason

dot (damage over time) abils are not affected by anything

potion boosts are additive 10x the levels boosted but then it all gets multiplied by prays and things at the end

certain abils have uneven distribution like slaughter, 0-99% dam gets boosted to 100% (it says it hits 100%-250%)

P0lPXdo.png


#7
Leon S
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Overloads boost by 17 visible levels, and 17 invisible levels. Each invisible level boosts your damage by eight. The invisible damage boost is affected by the speed modifier.

Turmoil and Anguish add 20 invisible levels. Torment, and all other mage prayers, are currently broken.

#8
J35u5_M4
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Hello, this is copied from my other topic at H&A.

Click me


So, obviously those numbers are wrong because you've proven that the slower the weapon, the higher the damage. But we can still use the data I got from equipment interfaces and such, to try to figure out how is weapon damage is exactly taken in count for abilities?

Posted Image


#9
chenw
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Your calculation is sound, that is exactly what I had assumed before I actually went out and tested them, that is when it all fell apart.



So far this is what I have determined why fast and average speed weapons deal the damage they do. Let's look at Dragon longsword:

1. If strength was taken into account AFTER they normalise, then it's doing too low: (735 * 2.4/3) + 99 = 687

2. If strength was taken int account BEFORE they normalise, then it's doing too high: (735 + 99) * 2.4/3 = 667.2

It is, bizzarely, doing the exactly the average of both calculations


With Dragon Battleaxe:

1. Strength after normalise: (894 * 2.4/3.6) + 99 = 695

2. Strength before normalise: (894 + 99) * 2.4/3.6 = 662

The middle value of these is 678.5, rounded gives 679, which is 1 away from the 680 damage shown.

So if my conclusions are correct, the ability damage is the average of the damage calculated from both ways. It seems a bit coincidental, to me, that the real damage is pretty much right in the middle of the two calculations.

However, the above does not remotely explain why fast speed weapons benefit from + damage more than Fastest (explainable) AND average (not explainable)

Perhaps someone could shed some light on the exact mechanism?

The reason why this mechanism exists I can only speculate, but probably an attempt by Jagex to balance the fast weapons VS slow ones. Because, if you put the strength inside the brackets, Fast weapons win at 99 strength, because their strength isn't normalised. If you put strength outside of the brackets, Slow weapons win at 99 strength, because of their inherently higher damage.

Why not just make all weapons with the same dps pre-strength? Because slow weapons then becomes worse than fast weapons for auto attacks (they get 99 damage per attack, so faster weapons benefit more)

Again, only my theory

PS. My apologies for the lack of updates, RL has somewhat entangled with my testing.

Also, from my recent testing:

1. Dark bow does not remotely do enough ability damage compared to its tier. It is vastly outdamaged by Seercull with Broad arrows (something like 2:3).

2. The damage from EE is "real", as in it does indeed deal damage based on its description, hence the "Just compare its tier" is only a generalisation, it does not apply to EE, Brackish Blade or skilling tool weapons such as pickaxes and hatchets.

tim_chenw2.png
6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)


#10
vmser
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Either this is because it's monday morning - but you lost me here. We are comparing the crit hits of same tier weaponry. They are close, but not exact. Does this not imply that the faster weapon is the better choice? Given a same crit hit, the dps should be higher on the faster weapon?
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#11
chenw
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No, the exact opposite, it seems slower weapons are better, at least from abilities point of view, the difference is marginal (not more than 1% between best and worst), but the difference is big enough that Fast weapons are better than Fastest, especially if you have + damage gear. The difference is small enough to be ignored, but efficiencists will probably take note.

Auto attacks remain the same, faster weapons are better.

tim_chenw2.png
6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)


#12
Quyneax
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Is seercull also a shieldbow? Dark bow is iirc.

Anyway, interesting it's closer to averaged, which indicates that weapon damage as listed in the equipment interface isn't actually used in calculating ability max hits.

Bronze dagger crits (147 damage):
Slice: 182
Punish: 146
Sever: 276
Dismember: 30

Bronze sword (160 damage):
Slice: 182
Punish: 146
Sever: 276
Dismember: 30

Iron dagger (195 damage):
Slice: 242
Punish: 194
Sever: 365
Dismember: 40

Iron sword (221):
Slice: 242
Punish: 194
Sever: 365
Dismember: 40

Steel dagger (291):
Slice: 362
Punish: 290
Sever: 546
Dismember: 60

Steel sword (344):
Slice: 364
Punish: 292
Sever: 548
Dismember: 60

Black dagger (339):
Slice: 422
Punish: 338
Sever: 636
Dismember: 70

Black sword (405):
Slice: 424
Punish: 340
Sever: 638
Dismember: 70

Mithril dagger (387):
Slice: 482
Punish: 386
Sever: 726
Dismember: 80

Mithril sword (466):
Slice: 484
Punish: 388
Sever: 728
Dismember: 80
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#13
J35u5_M4
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Your calculations seem way more exact than mine do, but it's still odd that we're not getting the exact number, so I guess we're close to the formula, but not quite there yet. We'd need to get some critical hits on perhaps, chaotic weaponry? The numbers seem to have higher difference between them there, so it's a good ground to start I guess

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#14
chenw
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It would seem just a product of rounding off (as in jagex calculations is more complicated and ends up having decimal places that gets eliminated), but some figures do seem too off to be rounding error (such as the 3 damage difference between the damage boost from BCP on dragon long and its real damage boost).

Also, here is what I have found:

Drygore Mace / Drygore Mace: 1444
Drygore Mace / EE : 1440

Those match exactly to inv screen

But, add bcp to the mix:

Drygore Mace / Drygore Mace : 1482 (or 38 damage boost, 1 point off from 1.5 x 26 = 39)
Drygore Mace / EE : 1480 (or 40 damage boost, again, 1 off from 39, but the other way).

meaning... EE is even closet to Drygore off hand when wearing BCP. No idea whether it will be exaggerated with torva (I doubt EE will end up better than Drygore, it'd be silly).

tim_chenw2.png
6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)


#15
Quyneax
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Armour definitely has decimal places, maybe weapons do as well.
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Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring
Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace
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#16
chenw
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chenw

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Possibly, but it seems strange that it would occur on things that should not have decimal places to begin with (such as 1.5x 26 is exactly 39), but without looking at the exact numbers, I can only speculate the origin of the discrepancies.

But as long as these discrepancies exist, there will be some weapons that are better than others. People have been known to pay millions for a relatively small damage boost (Torva, etc), I am willing to bet they will want to pay practically nothing for that damage boost (EG choosing Drygore Rapiers/Long over maces.)

tim_chenw2.png
6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)


#17
aerendil
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I have a question which may or may not belong here: Does weapon speed, or indeed, anything effect the cooldown time on abilities?

heard somewhere that that is how fastest weapons compensate their lower damage; or is it that slower weapons have the damage reduction?
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#18
chenw
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chenw

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Not from what I have seen, 2h weapons and dual wield fastest weapons have the exact same cooldown for me.

tim_chenw2.png
6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)


#19
Quasar
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Slower weapons deal a lower percentage of their maximum damage.

best drops (reasonably accurate/up to date): 1x Elysian Sigil (LS), 1x Arcane Sigil (cs), 4x Armadyl Hilt (solo at 100m, 100m, 50m, and 5m), 2x Saradomin Hilt (solo at 25m), 5x Draconic Visage (34m,1.2m,1.2m) and various cs/ls/ffa Nex splits.
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Ascension Crossbows: 6  Spider Legs: 10

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#20
chenw
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That's very much expected, the main issue here is that the normalised damage is not exactly equal, which is what everyone used to assume, those who thought there was a discrepency, they thought faster weapons would be better because of + damage and strength contributions.

Apparently thta is not the case.

tim_chenw2.png
6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)





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