Do YOU believe in God?

[terley]

 

 

 

believe the whole healing people, was an exageration.. A man before his time, Jesus could well have used medicines

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If he did use medicean then why did they not say in the bible

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you're thinking too litterally, just because it doesn't say it happened in the bible doesn't mean you can rule it out.. The bible isn't a dated historical book, its filled with stories and Jesus magically healing people could have been written from the view of someone who couldn't explain what they were seeing.. So put it down as a miracle..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't mean medicines as in what you'd see today, as in using healing methods such as, washing wounds in salty water, eating healthly (they had no real sense of a balanced diet, too much or less of something can make you ill).. Even maybe bandaging broken limbs (as in a fracture) could seem like a miracle, once was broken and would have been amputated would somehow be fixed over less than a month.. Simple things that we see as the norm now, could be so alien to them.. Thats what I mean by Jesus being before his time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Although you raise a good point, I would assert that it doesn't necessarily fall in line with the text of the Bible. For instance, the stories say that Jesus walked on water, and healed cripples just by telling them to walk. We can't even heal cripples with all the technology we have now - so if you believe the stories are true, you can't exactly believe they were just being told from the perspective of an ignorant person watching someone a little ahead of their time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you didn't read what I wrote.. :roll: it looks like you've skipped through and thrown back a defensive biased comment.. I didn't say it was written by an ignorant person watching someone a little ahead of their time, your just assuming thats what I meant, judging on the general gist of what I said..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

read again..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Btw i no this has nithing to do with this topic but you no like there is religions about god and heven is there religions about satan and hell it been bugging me for ages

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dunno, :lol: you'd think so right? Satanism is it? But some religions are so twisted that it might as well be in the eyes of another religion

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

edit

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTW I do respect all your beliefs, we'd be just boring if we didn't believe in anything, God, Bhudda, Greek Gods, Egyptian Gods, Michael Jackson believing in magic.. etc.. Im just trying to say the bible doesn't seem 100% true, neither does the God theory.. But I suppose every belief has its flaws.. :roll:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

well Im gonna stop talking about the bible now, before somethin bad happens..

[Guest GhostRanger]

you didn't read what I wrote.. :roll: it looks like you've skipped through and thrown back a defensive biased comment.. I didn't say it was written by an ignorant person watching someone a little ahead of their time, your just assuming thats what I meant, judging on the general gist of what I said..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

read again..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear. First, I'm not throwing in a defensive comment because I don't really care if you believe or not. What you said was that Jesus using medical techniques that were ahead of his time could be interpreted as mircales to someone who is ignorant because they don't understand the more advanced healing techniques Jesus knew. I understand that. If I am reading what you say incorrectly, please inform me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My point was that yes this could be true in several cases - but for a crippled man to walk. We can't even do that in this day and age. I understand the point, and I agree that its possible in several cases - but in some cases you either have to believe it was a miracle or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not making a biased comment because I don't care which side you choose to believe.

[dragonst0rm]

I dunno, you'd think so right? Satanism is it? But some religions are so twisted that it might as well be in the eyes of another religion

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you sayin there is a relgion to do with satan and hell and all evil. I thought there was but people just called it witchcraft or darkmagic, black magic or sorcerey or something like that.

[terley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

[dragonst0rm]

so satanism is a religion then. Well what ya no you learn somthing new every day.

[Craven_Image]

 

I would say i'm an Athiest but I do believe in a creator but not in the sense of a god. I believe the universe came into existance due to quantum mechanics. It was known by the temperature of the cosmic background radiation that the universe was once about the size of a proton - a single particle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In quantum mechanics it's been proven many times that on a single particle scale nothing exists unless a concious being observes it, unusual but true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A Proton is a nucleon not a particle, thatÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s beside the point if all the mass of the universe was pushed into something the size of a proton it would be a stellar black hole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that second part; the object is always there whether someone observes it or not. I'll try and give a simplified explanation below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The difference being that if we don't observe it then we don't know its precise location (which is common sense) and is instead represented by a probability of being in a location. Every object in the universe is constantly interacting with other objects and these interactions affect the probability of the object being in a specific location; these interactions, might leave it a bit off centre to where it should be. When we decide to view something then it will most likely appear in the area of highest probability; we move from guessing where it is to making a precise measurement to where it is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just to let you know, under the Copenhagen interpretation there is no real wave function; it is just a tool to help calculate probability.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well a proton may well be a nucleon but it still is a particle; a sub-atomic particle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it's believed the universe was once the size of something around the size of a proton. It's thought that all 4 major forces (strong and weak nuclear forces, gravity and the electromagnetic force) were all combined into one super-force at this stage. Space and time were also thought to be combined together rather than working dependently off one another. In these situations you can't use the current laws of physics to predict that it would just be a blackhole. The Cosmic Background Radiation produced results on this it's called cosmic inflation - where the universe expanded from microscopic to cosmic size.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your explanation of the Copenhagen experiment forgets to mention the experiments done on the individual photon. You seem to be stating the results of the photon wave which I understand; it's probability as you said.

 

 

 

The experiment which i'm talking about is when they placed photon detectors on each of the holes on the walls. Only when they did this did the photon act as a particle instead of a wave; because it was being observed.

[Guest AshKaYu]

 

How could someone stay drunk long enough to write a 1000 page book?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So cute in your innocence...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think someone would notice them taking a freakin gallon of wine :x

[Astralinre]

It says in the bible, adam and eve had two children, Cain and Abel.. But these were brother and sister,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, they were brothers. Cain murdered Abel then fled.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Skin colour is not another thing that can be quickly pointed to 'God's doing', all human existance has said to have started in africa, nearer to the equator, hotter.. Its evolution that adapted our skin to be able to protect itself from the sun, and through curiousity we would have found the need to explore, move on to a better place to live, from Africa outwards.. Because at this point the islands have been proven to be one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Over the journey of then to now we have developed to our habitat, we have white skin because were we live doesn't have much sunlight, and has more rain. It's hard to believe that god just decided, ok your black and some guy just became something different, I believe we all started black and it just leads me to think God created racism. Not in a way that he created black people (thats just racist in itself) but in a way that with so many different humans, God allowed us to feel hate to something different than ourselves..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You assume I was saying that all men were white before the Tower of Babel (assuming that God changed the skin color then), but I never said that. I simply believe that they were all the same color. They could have been black, they could have been white, they could have been Oriental, or they could have been green. All I said is that I believe God made different skin colors at Babel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In response to your second paragraph, nothing can be self-created, as that creates a logical inconsistancy. To create itself, something would have to be before it is, which is impossible. However, there is no logical inconsistancy to say something is self-existent. After all, since there is something here now, and nothing can create itself, something must be self-existent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your basically just saying, when it doesn't make sense the only option is to pin it on self existance, maybe theres another answer my friend? And what I was getting on was if you believe in self existance, why rule out the theory that the universe wasn't always here? If you believe that God was, why stick this down to a higher intellegence? Its the need to know we're safe in the world, having a God is just a man-made creation drawn on the sole intention of letting us think we're not alone. (apart from aliens 8) )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I direct you to the paragraph after the one you quoted, which you conveniently ignored. Allow me to quote it for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would say that an eternal, infinite being must be immutable also. After all, if it is eternal, it is outside of time, and change only occurs within time. Also, if it is infinite, it cannot change, as any change in it would be towards finiteness. As you went on to explain in the rest of your post, we can observe the universe changing. Since it is changing, it is in time. Since it is in time, it is not eternal. If it is not eternal, it has a beginning. I'd say that beginning is the infinite-personal, triune God.

[terley]

Well I've stopped talking about God now Astralinre, you can argue with someone else, cus in my eyes I'll always have an answer to what you say and in your eyes you'll always have an answer back..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How did two brothers spawn off the whole race of humans? im not even gonna image that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I didn't conviniently ignore that quote, I just didn't want to spam the page, what I wrote was aimed towards both paragraphs.. Don't patronize me... :roll: What you wrote in the last paragraph just seems like blabble to me.. utter nonsense with no hint of proof.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

believe what you want, but it all sounds really ridiculous to me, I can't help but laugh at what you said in some parts..

[Astralinre]

Well I've stopped talking about God now Astralinre, you can argue with someone else, cus in my eyes I'll always have an answer to what you say and in your eyes you'll always have an answer back..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How did two brothers spawn off the whole race of humans? im not even gonna image that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The two brothers didn't spawn off the entire human race. Nobody ever said that they were the only two children Adam and Eve had.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I didn't conviniently ignore that quote, I just didn't want to spam the page, what I wrote was aimed towards both paragraphs.. Don't patronize me... :roll: What you wrote in the last paragraph just seems like blabble to me.. utter nonsense with no hint of proof.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

believe what you want, but it all sounds really ridiculous to me, I can't help but laugh at what you said in some parts..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What you wrote only responded to the first paragraph. The second paragraph explained my view of why the universe couldn't be self-existent, and you ignored that. If you disagree with what I said, then I challenge you to disprove my logic, not to simply say "it all sounds really ridiculous to me" and that it "sounds like blabble" to you. Why not act maturely and show the flaw you see in my post instead of insulting me?

[Guest GhostRanger]

 

Well I've stopped talking about God now Astralinre, you can argue with someone else, cus in my eyes I'll always have an answer to what you say and in your eyes you'll always have an answer back..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How did two brothers spawn off the whole race of humans? im not even gonna image that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The two brothers didn't spawn off the entire human race. Nobody ever said that they were the only two children Adam and Eve had.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up Astra :P But the funny thing is that terley already knew that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you're thinking too litterally, just because it doesn't say it happened in the bible doesn't mean you can rule it out..

[bearofthunder]

Pascal's Wager:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are two choices, belief of religion or disbelief of religion. Since disbelief results in eternal damnation, it is better to believe in religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Acceptance of one side means rejection of the other. Makes sense, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some parts of every major religion are mutually exclusive of one another.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example,

 

 

 

- Christians believe that Jesus is the savior of the world and the son of God; Jews and Muslims believe just as strongly that he is not.

 

 

 

- Muslims believe that the Qur'an was divinely authored, while Jews and Christians do not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Acceptance of one religion requires the rejection of all the others. In the absence of a personal revelation, it is not possible to be sure that the one you chose is correct.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, the probability of believing in the right religion is

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1/n

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

n = number of religions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Suppose there are four possible religions, that means your probability of being in heaven is 1/4, but your probability of eternal damnation in one of the other religions you didn't choose is 3/4.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

oh noes!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good luck picking the right one.

[gonpost]

Pascal's Wager:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are two choices, belief of religion or disbelief of religion. Since disbelief results in eternal damnation, it is better to believe in religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Acceptance of one side means rejection of the other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pascal's Wager is ridiculous because a person only truly believes in one or the other at a given time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because I say I believe in a certain religion doesn't mean that I actually do, or viceversa.

[icantcmyeye]

I'm sorry, but the belief that there is an omnipitent (probably spelled that wrong) being that watches over us is something i have lots of trouble believing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My theory on creation is as such

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- At the so called 'big bang' the massive amounts of atomic energy that filled the void began to slow down. the slowing particles formed into matter through einsteins theory of relativity (Energy = Accelerated Mass). Heat given off by the energy caused less stable elements like hydrogen and oxygen to combust, sparking chain reactions that lead to huge balls of plasma held together by their own sheer weight. particles piled upon eachother and formed balls of minerals (planets) held together in the same way. on earth, the right chemicals combined at the right moment and formed a single celled organism. the organisim split in two, and in two again. the resulting 'primordial soup' slowly grew, and thus life began.

[Death_By_Pod]

 

 

 

Your explanation of the Copenhagen experiment forgets to mention the experiments done on the individual photon. You seem to be stating the results of the photon wave which I understand; its probability as you said.

 

 

 

The experiment which IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m talking about is when they placed photon detectors on each of the holes on the walls. Only when they did this did the photon act as a particle instead of a wave; because it was being observed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I was saying had nothing to do with it either being a particle or wave; the wave i was referring to is the probability of an object being at a certain position not an EM wave. Anyway you can find some wiki articles that better explain this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavefunction_collapse which gives a brief overview of the ideas and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat which contains an application of the idea.

 

 

 

Ill quotes the relevant part of the document.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"More intuitively, some feel that the "observation" is taken when a particle from the nucleus hits the detector. Recent developments in quantum physics show that measurements of quantum phenomena taken by non-conscious "observers" (such as a wiretap) most definitely alter the quantum state of the phenomena from the point of view of conscious observers reading the wiretap, lending support to this idea. However (and this is a key point of the thought experiment), there isn't any rule within the Copenhagen interpretation that says one way or the other, and this interpretation of quantum mechanics is incomplete without such rules and explanations for how such rules come to exist."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which is basically what I was talking about; the object is always approximately there but is precisely there when a measurement is made. I donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t believe in this conscious observer idea at all.

[frogact]

I believe in God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually think it takes much more faith than what i have to reject God by saying that such an intelligent design as the universe we live in just blew itself up out of nothing.

[dragonst0rm]

to be honest with every one i think that it is unexplainable how the world was made and the race of mankind and jesus. The only way to prove would to be travell bk 2000 years and see for our slef but we can not do that

[bearofthunder]

The only way to prove would to be travell bk 2000 years and see for our slef but we can not do that

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.Tiberius, under order of Augustus, quelled revolts in Germany

 

 

 

2. Start of the Yuanshi era of the Chinese Han Dynasty.

 

 

 

3.Confucius is given his first royal title of Lord Baochengxun Ni.

 

 

 

4.Silk appears in Rome.

 

 

 

5.The poem Metamorphoses is written.

 

 

 

6.Buddhism is introduced into China.

 

 

 

7.Emperor Ping of Han China's reign begins.

 

 

 

8.Ethiopia is founded.

 

 

 

9.Moxos ceases to be a significant religious area in South America

[Guest GhostRanger]

 

The only way to prove would to be travell bk 2000 years and see for our slef but we can not do that

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.Tiberius, under order of Augustus, quelled revolts in Germany

 

 

 

2. Start of the Yuanshi era of the Chinese Han Dynasty.

 

 

 

3.Confucius is given his first royal title of Lord Baochengxun Ni.

 

 

 

4.Silk appears in Rome.

 

 

 

5.The poem Metamorphoses is written.

 

 

 

6.Buddhism is introduced into China.

 

 

 

7.Emperor Ping of Han China's reign begins.

 

 

 

8.Ethiopia is founded.

 

 

 

9.Moxos ceases to be a significant religious area in South America

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm confused. Could you explain your point?

[bearofthunder]

 

 

The only way to prove would to be travell bk 2000 years and see for our slef but we can not do that

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.Tiberius, under order of Augustus, quelled revolts in Germany

 

 

 

2. Start of the Yuanshi era of the Chinese Han Dynasty.

 

 

 

3.Confucius is given his first royal title of Lord Baochengxun Ni.

 

 

 

4.Silk appears in Rome.

 

 

 

5.The poem Metamorphoses is written.

 

 

 

6.Buddhism is introduced into China.

 

 

 

7.Emperor Ping of Han China's reign begins.

 

 

 

8.Ethiopia is founded.

 

 

 

9.Moxos ceases to be a significant religious area in South America

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm confused. Could you explain your point?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He is claiming that the world began when Jesus was born.

[thenext88]

 

 

I would say i'm an Athiest but I do believe in a creator but not in the sense of a god. I believe the universe came into existance due to quantum mechanics. It was known by the temperature of the cosmic background radiation that the universe was once about the size of a proton - a single particle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In quantum mechanics it's been proven many times that on a single particle scale nothing exists unless a concious being observes it, unusual but true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A Proton is a nucleon not a particle, thatÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s beside the point if all the mass of the universe was pushed into something the size of a proton it would be a stellar black hole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that second part; the object is always there whether someone observes it or not. I'll try and give a simplified explanation below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The difference being that if we don't observe it then we don't know its precise location (which is common sense) and is instead represented by a probability of being in a location. Every object in the universe is constantly interacting with other objects and these interactions affect the probability of the object being in a specific location; these interactions, might leave it a bit off centre to where it should be. When we decide to view something then it will most likely appear in the area of highest probability; we move from guessing where it is to making a precise measurement to where it is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just to let you know, under the Copenhagen interpretation there is no real wave function; it is just a tool to help calculate probability.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well a proton may well be a nucleon but it still is a particle; a sub-atomic particle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it's believed the universe was once the size of something around the size of a proton. It's thought that all 4 major forces (strong and weak nuclear forces, gravity and the electromagnetic force) were all combined into one super-force at this stage. Space and time were also thought to be combined together rather than working dependently off one another. In these situations you can't use the current laws of physics to predict that it would just be a blackhole. The Cosmic Background Radiation produced results on this it's called cosmic inflation - where the universe expanded from microscopic to cosmic size.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your explanation of the Copenhagen experiment forgets to mention the experiments done on the individual photon. You seem to be stating the results of the photon wave which I understand; it's probability as you said.

 

 

 

The experiment which i'm talking about is when they placed photon detectors on each of the holes on the walls. Only when they did this did the photon act as a particle instead of a wave; because it was being observed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So where did that single proton come from? :wink:

[Death_By_Pod]

 

 

 

So where did that single proton come from?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Undefined, whatÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s 1 divided by 0?

[dragonst0rm]

The only way to prove would to be travell bk 2000 years and see for our slef but we can not do that

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if you dont get me what i am saying is to found out weather Jesus did exsitrs we would have to travell back trougth time to when he was sopos to be alive and see for ourselvs

[lunapasa]

 

 

 

 

So where did that single proton come from?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Undefined, whatÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s 1 divided by 0?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no idea what you're talking about but I do know that you can't divide numbers by 0

[Guest GhostRanger]

 

 

 

The only way to prove would to be travell bk 2000 years and see for our slef but we can not do that

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.Tiberius, under order of Augustus, quelled revolts in Germany

 

 

 

2. Start of the Yuanshi era of the Chinese Han Dynasty.

 

 

 

3.Confucius is given his first royal title of Lord Baochengxun Ni.

 

 

 

4.Silk appears in Rome.

 

 

 

5.The poem Metamorphoses is written.

 

 

 

6.Buddhism is introduced into China.

 

 

 

7.Emperor Ping of Han China's reign begins.

 

 

 

8.Ethiopia is founded.

 

 

 

9.Moxos ceases to be a significant religious area in South America

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm confused. Could you explain your point?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He is claiming that the world began when Jesus was born.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No I don't think that was his point. I think the 2000 years referenced Jesus' life, and Jesus' life only. Christians believe in an entire era of human race before Jesus so it would be silly for even a Christian to suggest that.