katha610 Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 No. They might relate to each other, but they are very different, especially when talking about Christianity and other religions. We, as Christians, i wasnt talking about religion, anyway. im not a christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostRanger Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 No. They might relate to each other, but they are very different, especially when talking about Christianity and other religions. We, as Christians, i wasnt talking about religion, anyway. im not a christian. I have this book called "The Philosopher's Toolkit." It's basically a good introduction to all the tools of argumentation - and how they can be applied to philosophical dialgoues. One of the basic "tools" it talks about is consistency. Basically, the point about consistency is that no matter how beautiful your argument is; no matter how truthful it is and no matter how solid your reasoning is, if your argument is inconsistent, it fails entirely. Let me demonstrate. well, she should accept your point of view. esp, if shes a christian, unless shes quite a radical, dont worry, youll figure something out i wasnt talking about religion, anyway. im not a christian. Do you see the glaring inconsistency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barihawk Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 Actually, I was referring to microevolution. The sun example was just one in many factors, including diet, climate, etc. My heart is broken by the terrible loss I have sustained in my old friends and companions and my poor soldiers. Believe me, nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won. -Sir Arthur Wellesley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katha610 Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Do you see the glaring inconsistency? hm, youre right. anyway, i would still give him that advice no matter how inconsistent or wrong it might be not caring about some oddments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbball55 Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 You can believe whatever you want to believe..its when you give in and accept what others are giving you is when you dont truly believe in yourself anymore. :wink: Thanks for the sig poker! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianofrieak2 Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 You can believe whatever you want to believe..its when you give in and accept what others are giving you is when you dont truly believe in yourself anymore. :wink: What if your view doesn't have the most reasonings and support? Are you supposed to believe "in yourself" even when you're clearly wrong? I'm currently transitioning from a Wizard to a Mage and a Priest to an Archpriest. Lol both are nonexistant in the top 25. Hopefully I can change that. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigra00 Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Tower of Babel? Basically, the people came together, all speaking one language, started building cities and monuments, and became prideful because of their achievements. They thought they could rival God by building a tower that reached to the heavens. God then confused their languages, so that they could no longer work on the tower, thus curbing their pride. The people who spoke the same languages gathered together and moved off in their own little groups. Though the Bible doesn't say it, many scholars believe that God also created the different races at this point. Things like this make me believe even more that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally, and they're just stories to live life by. I find it hard to believe that God thought some rather primitive people could even begin to build a tower to "heaven". We've currently have a space probe that isn't even in our galaxy anymore (if I remember right) and still no sign of heaven, so yea...Pretty good distance there. Nevermind the fact that God knows it's impossible not only because they couldn't build something THAT tall, but because he knew they couldn't breathe up there even if they could get up there...Remember, these people believed heaven was up in the sky, so they obviously thought it was possible. It's almost unfathomable that people can read these stories and not go "Oh, I see wha this story means...It's telling you not to be a jackass!", and instead go "Ohhh, this story is literal! It means God will become angry if you build a tower trying to get to heaven!" More than likely, this tower was actually built and fell the [bleep] over because they didn't know what they were doing. Perhaps some people working on it made mathematical errors (thus the "language change") and it just...tipped over. I'm not saying all the stories in the Bible are lies, afterall...Some of them could very well have happened, but they also have very easy, explainable, natural reasons of how they could have happened. Like the whole walls of Jerico or whatever that one story is (hell if I know)...The walls could have been knocked over by an Earth quake. People seem to forget that these were early people...They were, by our means, incredibley gullible and not very bright. The popularity of any given religion today depends on the victories of the wars they fought in the past. - Me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
issy2 Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Tower of Babel? Basically, the people came together, all speaking one language, started building cities and monuments, and became prideful because of their achievements. They thought they could rival God by building a tower that reached to the heavens. God then confused their languages, so that they could no longer work on the tower, thus curbing their pride. The people who spoke the same languages gathered together and moved off in their own little groups. Though the Bible doesn't say it, many scholars believe that God also created the different races at this point. Things like this make me believe even more that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally, and they're just stories to live life by. I find it hard to believe that God thought some rather primitive people could even begin to build a tower to "heaven". We've currently have a space probe that isn't even in our galaxy anymore (if I remember right) and still no sign of heaven, so yea...Pretty good distance there. Nevermind the fact that God knows it's impossible not only because they couldn't build something THAT tall, but because he knew they couldn't breathe up there even if they could get up there...Remember, these people believed heaven was up in the sky, so they obviously thought it was possible. It's almost unfathomable that people can read these stories and not go "Oh, I see wha this story means...It's telling you not to be a *!", and instead go "Ohhh, this story is literal! It means God will become angry if you build a tower trying to get to heaven!" More than likely, this tower was actually built and fell the * over because they didn't know what they were doing. Perhaps some people working on it made mathematical errors (thus the "language change") and it just...tipped over. I'm not saying all the stories in the Bible are lies, afterall...Some of them could very well have happened, but they also have very easy, explainable, natural reasons of how they could have happened. Like the whole walls of Jerico or whatever that one story is (hell if I know)...The walls could have been knocked over by an Earth quake. People seem to forget that these were early people...They were, by our means, incredibley gullible and not very bright. 1. Are you saying that, by some religious, crazy 'miracle' everyone in the whole world originated speaking the same language? Sorry,, I just think that's crazy... 2. Our galaxy? In comparison to the size of the apparently 'limitless' universe, our galaxy is a tiny light on the eternal canvas of Space... And then if you take into account that there may be 'parralel' universes...well it's too much for my little mind to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbball55 Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 You can believe whatever you want to believe..its when you give in and accept what others are giving you is when you dont truly believe in yourself anymore. :wink: What if your view doesn't have the most reasonings and support? Are you supposed to believe "in yourself" even when you're clearly wrong? Not having the most reasonings and support and being clearly wrong are two different things..And just because they aren't the most popular, doesn't mean you should give them up. Thats why I dont like people who just refuse to be themselves and join crowds Thanks for the sig poker! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostRanger Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 You can believe whatever you want to believe..its when you give in and accept what others are giving you is when you dont truly believe in yourself anymore. :wink: What if your view doesn't have the most reasonings and support? Are you supposed to believe "in yourself" even when you're clearly wrong? Not having the most reasonings and support and being clearly wrong are two different things..And just because they aren't the most popular, doesn't mean you should give them up. Thats why I dont like people who just refuse to be themselves and join crowds What if joining the crowd is who they want to be? Some people find it harder to express themselves individually. It's not in their personality to do so. Why are you judging them because they aren't as individualistic as yourself? Why do you think everyone should "join the crowd" and be an individual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbball55 Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Ok..even if I had judged them, it's my opinion and it doesn't matter to me or anyone else, I really dont care whether somebody accepts it or not. And I do have some friends who do fit in as a jock, prep, or what have you ( I would classify as one seeing as I play sports but I dont hang out with just my group or whatever ). And people dont have to be able to openly express individuality but people who act like someones lackey to try to be "in" is just sad. Or people who talk behind peoples backs but can't admit it when a confrontation arises. Thanks for the sig poker! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inureface Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 I don't know why other people believe what they believe, but when there's no facts or proof, thats where faith comes in. I would rather believe God created the whole universe etc than some guy telling me that everything came from nothing. I can understand how some of you are mad at Christians for bugging you and all that crap, frankly pushing someone to do anything they don't want isn't going to help anyone, so you'll just have to ignore them. Just because they nag you doesn't give you the right to call what they believe crap. Its so easy to bash Christians because the real ones won't retaliate with "haha noob gonna burn in hell or u suk". I just tell people why I believe and thats good enough for me. You don't see many people insulting Muslims directly because they'll fight back, seriously. When you hear about relief effort, do you think of Christians or Muslims first, what about when you hear about car bombs? That says alot about our faith. So even if you don't believe in God, compare real Christians with normal people and you'll see a bit of something in each one of us that sets us apart. All PKers need to read this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megadedhed Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 I don't know why other people believe what they believe, but when there's no facts or proof, thats where faith comes in. I would rather believe God created the whole universe etc than some guy telling me that everything came from nothing. I can understand how some of you are mad at Christians for bugging you and all that crap, frankly pushing someone to do anything they don't want isn't going to help anyone, so you'll just have to ignore them. Just because they nag you doesn't give you the right to call what they believe crap. Its so easy to bash Christians because the real ones won't retaliate with "haha noob gonna burn in hell or u suk". I just tell people why I believe and thats good enough for me. You don't see many people insulting Muslims directly because they'll fight back, seriously. When you hear about relief effort, do you think of Christians or Muslims first, what about when you hear about car bombs? That says alot about our faith. So even if you don't believe in God, compare real Christians with normal people and you'll see a bit of something in each one of us that sets us apart. i understand what you are trying to say.. .but i dont liek the way that came out... so christians are better because they dont do car bombs? what about the crusades? ever herd of that? Sigs made by Runemetsa, Nuzza, Dark_Shadow, Kuroi and Me.liquid blobs attacking eachother American Anime... YAY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilperson Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 I don't know why other people believe what they believe, but when there's no facts or proof, thats where faith comes in. I would rather believe God created the whole universe etc than some guy telling me that everything came from nothing. I can understand how some of you are mad at Christians for bugging you and all that crap, frankly pushing someone to do anything they don't want isn't going to help anyone, so you'll just have to ignore them. Just because they nag you doesn't give you the right to call what they believe crap. Its so easy to bash Christians because the real ones won't retaliate with "haha noob gonna burn in hell or u suk". I just tell people why I believe and thats good enough for me. You don't see many people insulting Muslims directly because they'll fight back, seriously. When you hear about relief effort, do you think of Christians or Muslims first, what about when you hear about car bombs? That says alot about our faith. So even if you don't believe in God, compare real Christians with normal people and you'll see a bit of something in each one of us that sets us apart. Actually it is alright to call whichever religion is pushing me crap because basically what they are telling me, which i mean trying to convert me, that is their religion is better and mine is lesser and i NEED to join theirs if i want to be happy/successful/not going to hell. So it is the same thing... Everybody lovin' it, but ain't no body touchin' it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megadedhed Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Actually it is alright to call whichever religion is pushing me crap because basically what they are telling me, which i mean trying to convert me, that is their religion is better and mine is lesser and i NEED to join theirs if i want to be happy/successful/not going to hell. So it is the same thing... that makes sense... i love how some people i know say they "love me" and want to "save me", i just simply say no thank thank you.... since I am Bisexual, i enjoy being part of a religion that allows me to enjoy being who i am. Sigs made by Runemetsa, Nuzza, Dark_Shadow, Kuroi and Me.liquid blobs attacking eachother American Anime... YAY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logic-is-overrated Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 I don't know why other people believe what they believe, but when there's no facts or proof, thats where faith comes in.Don't you ever ask yourself why there's no proof or facts? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to examine the basis for your beliefs instead of applying the blind bandage of faith? So even if you don't believe in God, compare real Christians with normal people and you'll see a bit of something in each one of us that sets us apart.Actually you won't. I know it's convenient to simply discount all the christians who live terrible lifestyles by claiming their not "real christians" but you can't ignore the fact that there are millions upon millions of people who aren't christians who still live lives that are just as virtuous or moral as any christian. This is the way the world ends. Look at this [bleep]ing shit we're in man. Not with a bang, but with a whimper. And with a whimper, I'm splitting, Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inureface Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Look whoever said you can call my faith crap, its OK to not like the guys who bug you and try to convert you etc, but I don't go around calling Atheism crap just because some Atheists publically say theres no God. If you think its OK to do that, well, that just speaks for whatever you believe in. To logic: The Bible offers an explanation, God is giving us a choice. We can choose to believe or not. If he made proof that the universe came from something that's not him, it'd be pretty pointless because obvously everyone will believe what's fact and everyone'd go to hell. It may seem kinda blunt but yeah, thats my reason for believing, because if you just think logically, some guy telling you everything we know came from nothing and somehow it all makes sense and works perfectly......umm yeah what are the odds? I believed because I had a few Christian friends, and they had something I didn't and I seeked it. True to that verse that goes something like: You are the light of the world, a city on a hill cannot be hidden. Theres just this thing that makes them more complete, its hard to grasp but it makes you want it too, and I went for it. I didn't really argue over facts or any other stuff because no one has proven the Bible wrong, and the Bibe never contradicts itself, something thats hard for someone faking it to do. The thing is, the guys who live "moral" lives gotta get their morals from somewhere, and either they make it up on the way (lol) or they get it from someone else. Someone else like Oprah or some stupid Hollywood actor. But how does it coming from Oprah's mouth make it right? There are alot of nice people who don't believe, but (and now I'm going to sound like one of those guys who go hellfire preaching #-o ) they are just kidding themselves if they think that by doing good even if they don't believe in God that they're gonna make it to heaven or reincarnate or whatever. I mean if its what you believe then fine I guess, but I can't help but feel you're hiding from something, like the truth. Not accusing anyone of anything, but thats my experience with alot of guys on the fence, the Meh'rs All PKers need to read this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam007 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 I believed because I had a few Christian friends, and they had something I didn't and I seeked it. True to that verse that goes something like: You are the light of the world, a city on a hill cannot be hidden. Theres just this thing that makes them more complete, its hard to grasp but it makes you want it too, and I went for it. I didn't really argue over facts or any other stuff because no one has proven the Bible wrong, and the Bibe never contradicts itself, something thats hard for someone faking it to do. Maybe in your opinion they seemed more complete because they had religion in them. I call that having more, not being neccesarily complete though. And more isn't always a good thing. You say nobody ever proved the bible wrong - that's kind of hard to do. I mean I can say that 410 dimensions exist and you can't prove me wrong. It's harder to prove something is right - and I'm not seeing any proof. If you do accept a religion, you shouldn't accept it just because nobody proved it wrong yet. There are alot of nice people who don't believe, but (and now I'm going to sound like one of those guys who go hellfire preaching #-o ) they are just kidding themselves if they think that by doing good even if they don't believe in God that they're gonna make it to heaven or reincarnate or whatever. I mean if its what you believe then fine I guess, but I can't help but feel you're hiding from something, like the truth. Not accusing anyone of anything, but thats my experience with alot of guys on the fence, the Meh'rs So basically you're saying only Christians are going to go to a heaven if it exists? I mean there's tons of other religions, and tons of people without religions, all living completely moral and good lives, but since they don't believe in your perception of truth, they're not going to make it? People who don't believe aren't hiding from anything. They'd love to believe, they'd love for things to be that easy, they just can't for whatever reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianofrieak2 Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 I believed because I had a few Christian friends, and they had something I didn't and I seeked it. True to that verse that goes something like: You are the light of the world, a city on a hill cannot be hidden. Theres just this thing that makes them more complete, its hard to grasp but it makes you want it too, and I went for it. I didn't really argue over facts or any other stuff because no one has proven the Bible wrong, and the Bibe never contradicts itself, something thats hard for someone faking it to do. Maybe in your opinion they seemed more complete because they had religion in them. I call that having more, not being neccesarily complete though. And more isn't always a good thing. Now why would you say that? Let me just give you some Scripture to prove his point. Matthew 12:33 "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Here Jesus says that you shall know his followers by their fruit. If this guy's friends had something he didn't, you can naturally assume (even proven by Scripture) that they had something he wanted. Their fruit was good, their fruit was a result of a changed life (hopefully through Christ). You say nobody ever proved the bible wrong - that's kind of hard to do. I mean I can say that 410 dimensions exist and you can't prove me wrong. It's harder to prove something is right - and I'm not seeing any proof. If you do accept a religion, you shouldn't accept it just because nobody proved it wrong yet. I agree with you on that one. There are alot of nice people who don't believe, but (and now I'm going to sound like one of those guys who go hellfire preaching #-o ) they are just kidding themselves if they think that by doing good even if they don't believe in God that they're gonna make it to heaven or reincarnate or whatever. I mean if its what you believe then fine I guess, but I can't help but feel you're hiding from something, like the truth. Not accusing anyone of anything, but thats my experience with alot of guys on the fence, the Meh'rs So basically you're saying only Christians are going to go to a heaven if it exists? I mean there's tons of other religions, and tons of people without religions, all living completely moral and good lives, but since they don't believe in your perception of truth, they're not going to make it? People who don't believe aren't hiding from anything. They'd love to believe, they'd love for things to be that easy, they just can't for whatever reasons. Matthew 5: 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. This verse proves that you have to be perfect to get into heaven. The Pharisees were, as you are well aware, the most holy and "following-the-letter-of-the-law" people in the entire land, let alone the entire world. If you have to be better than them, it is natural to assume you have to be perfect. If you're not perfect, then you have to have someone take the punishment of sin. Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus." Matthew 19: 13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there. Why would Jesus say make the example of those inheriting the kingdom of heaven little children if they couldn't understand it? I'm currently transitioning from a Wizard to a Mage and a Priest to an Archpriest. Lol both are nonexistant in the top 25. Hopefully I can change that. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logic-is-overrated Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 Here Jesus says that you shall know his followers by their fruit. If this guy's friends had something he didn't, you can naturally assume (even proven by Scripture) that they had something he wanted. Their fruit was good, their fruit was a result of a changed life (hopefully through Christ).He said that if you look at christians and compare them to "normal people" there is something in christians that set them apart. Now, if this something that sets them apart is being more devoted to Jesus Christ then duh, that's a given. But taken in context with his whole post it seems like he's saying christians are more giving, caring, happy, fullfilled etc. And that is quite simply, false. There are christians who are living fullfilled, happy lives and are upstanding, moral people. And there are non-christians who are living fullfilled, happy lives and are upstanding, moral people. This is the way the world ends. Look at this [bleep]ing shit we're in man. Not with a bang, but with a whimper. And with a whimper, I'm splitting, Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pianofrieak2 Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 He said that if you look at christians and compare them to "normal people" there is something in christians that set them apart. Now, if this something that sets them apart is being more devoted to Jesus Christ then duh, that's a given. But taken in context with his whole post it seems like he's saying christians are more giving, caring, happy, fullfilled etc. And that is quite simply, false. There are christians who are living fullfilled, happy lives and are upstanding, moral people. And there are non-christians who are living fullfilled, happy lives and are upstanding, moral people. You can say that if you want. Just know that both of our views are aligned with Scripture. Jesus said that His followers will have changed lives because of their changed natures. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I'm currently transitioning from a Wizard to a Mage and a Priest to an Archpriest. Lol both are nonexistant in the top 25. Hopefully I can change that. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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