Jump to content

The bible


Notorious_Ice

Recommended Posts

 

 

You agree that your beliefs are contrdictory? Contraditions means that they don't work and that you need to rethink them.

 

 

 

I can't know whether we have free will or not only God would know. However my experiences points towards free will.

 

 

 

Your beliefs are contradictory. That means at least one part of your beliefs (God is omniscient or free will exists) is wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stop asserting that you don't know what God knows. No one does. That has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think your position is actually the wrong one. God IS omniscient and humans DO have free will. Just because God knows everything that ever is/was/will be doesn't mean that we didn't choose these things. Look at it this way. When you wake up in the morning you choose to either get out of bed or sleep for another five minutes. That is most definitely your choice. This proves human free will. However God knew weather you would get out of bed or sleep some more. Does this mean he decided for you? No! It merely means he had prior knowledge of which CHOICE you would make. I can't prove God's omniscience by any means other than things like Jesus' prior knowledge of his death, but this even more proves human free will. Seeing as Jesus was both 100% human and 100% divine he is the only example to prove both human free will and God's omniscience. He choose to be crucified for our sins. That was his humanness, but he also knew that Simon Peter would deny him 3 times which is proof enough of his omniscience and hence his divinity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 1.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

 

 

 

You agree that your beliefs are contrdictory? Contraditions means that they don't work and that you need to rethink them.

 

 

 

I can't know whether we have free will or not only God would know. However my experiences points towards free will.

 

 

 

Your beliefs are contradictory. That means at least one part of your beliefs (God is omniscient or free will exists) is wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stop asserting that you don't know what God knows. No one does. That has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think your position is actually the wrong one. God IS omniscient and humans DO have free will. Just because God knows everything that ever is/was/will be doesn't mean that we didn't choose these things. Look at it this way. When you wake up in the morning you choose to either get out of bed or sleep for another five minutes. That is most definitely your choice. This proves human free will. However God knew weather you would get out of bed or sleep some more. Does this mean he decided for you? No! It merely means he had prior knowledge of which CHOICE you would make. I can't prove God's omniscience by any means other than things like Jesus' prior knowledge of his death, but this even more proves human free will. Seeing as Jesus was both 100% human and 100% divine he is the only example to prove both human free will and God's omniscience. He choose to be crucified for our sins. That was his humanness, but he also knew that Simon Peter would deny him 3 times which is proof enough of his omniscience and hence his divinity.

 

 

 

I don't know what it is, but I both love and hate explaining this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me put it this way. Let's say that you have two choices, them being X and Y. If that God of yours is omniscient, does he not know what choice you make? Thus, you technically have the choice to make choice X or Y, but if God knows you're going to choose choice X, if he is omniscient you're going to choose choice X, and there's no way of getting around that. You are destined to make choice X no matter what you do if there really is an omniscient God. If you don't make choice X then you are denying the fact that that God is omniscient.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, it appears that we have a choice to make X or Y because we don't come in contact with God, but in reality we're guna make choice X whether we like it or not, unless of course there isn't an omniscient God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again, if you didn't get it, we make a choice, that doesn't mean we have free will.

[if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or

by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.]

 

Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Again, if you didn't get it, we make a choice, that doesn't mean we have free will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And your the one talking about contradictions...

 

 

 

The definition of free will is being able to make a choice of one's own accord. You say that the choice was predestined (which I don't believe it was) and even if it was that doesn't mean that you didn't choose it. By making a choice you are proving free will. I think the problem we have here is that you are saying something is predestined and therefore we don't have free will. I am saying that no choice is predestined, but rather it is known by God based upon our personality and circumstances what choice we will make. I have had this discussion with many people in the past and generally it just degenerates from a genuine intellectual conversation to "No it isn't!" "Yes it is!" so in this instance I will make the choice to believe that our best course of action is to agree to have our differing viewpoints.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

Again, if you didn't get it, we make a choice, that doesn't mean we have free will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And your the one talking about contradictions...

 

 

 

The definition of free will is being able to make a choice of one's own accord. You say that the choice was predestined (which I don't believe it was) and even if it was that doesn't mean that you didn't choose it. By making a choice you are proving free will. I think the problem we have here is that you are saying something is predestined and therefore we don't have free will. I am saying that no choice is predestined, but rather it is known by God based upon our personality and circumstances what choice we will make. I have had this discussion with many people in the past and generally it just degenerates from a genuine intellectual conversation to "No it isn't!" "Yes it is!" so in this instance I will make the choice to believe that our best course of action is to agree to have our differing viewpoints.

 

 

 

Nope, I'm too stubborn to stop one post in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bolded point #1: God knows what choice we're going to make (and theoretically, though a chain of cause and effect from the beginning of the universe, could possibly control it). Therefore, it appears that we have free will through our choices, but our choices are already predestined and controlled.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bolded point #2: If (if) God is omniscient, then He knows at any time what we are going to do at any time in our lives. It is already known what we will do, what choices we will make, before we make them. They are predestined.

[if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or

by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.]

 

Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I wanted to stop :( , but I guess that I will continue until this does degenerate into a screaming match (I hope this is the first time it doesn't). I don't have a huge wealth of knowledge on this subject as I am only a high school senior (the twelve years of Catholic school might help explain why I have this view), but I am going to borrow from this page that I found. I'll leave the link at the end so you can check it out yourself if you wish. I'll paraphrase here, your argument goes like this

 

 

 

1. A being with free will, given two options A and B, can freely choose between A and B.

 

 

 

2. God is omniscient (all-knowing).

 

 

 

3. God knows I will choose A.

 

 

 

4. God cannot be wrong, since an omniscient being cannot have false knowledge.

 

 

 

5. From 3 and 4, I will choose A and cannot choose B.

 

 

 

6. From 1 and 5, omniscience and free will cannot co-exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I won't dispute 1 (as we both agree on this), 2 (as this is the main sticking point in the argument), 3 is necessary is 2 is true, and 4 is necessary of an omniscient being. 5 is where I will dispute you. I can't state it very eloquently so I will use this article's exact wording.

 

 

 

"...point number 5 is where the logic falters. Those who argue in this manner make the mistake of thinking that because God possesses knowledge about a specific matter, then he has influenced it. That does not follow at all. Just because God can foresee which choice you will make, it does not mean you couldn't still freely choose the other option."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I liked his example very much so I will also post that.

 

 

 

"I have a five year old son. If I were to leave a chocolate chip cookie on the table about a hour before dinner time and my son was to walk by and see it, I know that he would pick up the cookie and eat it. I did not force him to make that decision. In fact, I don't even have to be in the room at all. I think I know my son well enough, though, to tell you that if I come back into the kitchen the cookie will be gone. His act was made completely free of my influence, but I knew what his actions would be."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the link to this page is http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi038.asp

 

 

 

I know that this is a Christian web page and this is likely to agree with the Christian viewpoint, but that does not mean that it is incorrect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I basically knew that, so the only reason I disagree with you is the fact that we can't escape the choice that God knows we're going to make. I personally don't define it as free will if we can't escape making that one choice. Good analogy though; it's nice to see someone logical arguing the other side of the case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, the main reason I make that point is to combat the idea of Heaven and Hell going to those who supposedly deserve it. If we can't escape what God knows we will do from the moment we're created, how does it make any sense to send someone to eternal Hell because they couldn't escape predestination?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm also wavering on the infinite cause-and-effect idea, that being if God created the universe, everything is cause and effect, and therefore whatever God did in creating the universe would control what choices everyone made in the future. I'm not sure about that one, but it's possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eh, our disagreement doesn't really occur from our opinions about omniscience, but our definitions of "free will". I don't consider myself free if me fate is already set out before I'm even created.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that technically my definition is wrong. Is there another definition/word for us having free will, but not being able to escape fate?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, I know this is an extreme shocker for anyone on this forum, but I believe I have been proven wrong *gasp*. I still stand that my point disproves the idea of Heaven and Hell though, which is what I was trying to argue in the first place :P .

[if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or

by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.]

 

Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I basically knew that, so the only reason I disagree with you is the fact that we can't escape the choice that God knows we're going to make. I personally don't define it as free will if we can't escape making that one choice. Good analogy though; it's nice to see someone logical arguing the other side of the case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, the main reason I make that point is to combat the idea of Heaven and Hell going to those who supposedly deserve it. If we can't escape what God knows we will do from the moment we're created, how does it make any sense to send someone to eternal Hell because they couldn't escape predestination?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm also wavering on the infinite cause-and-effect idea, that being if God created the universe, everything is cause and effect, and therefore whatever God did in creating the universe would control what choices everyone made in the future. I'm not sure about that one, but it's possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eh, our disagreement doesn't really occur from our opinions about omniscience, but our definitions of "free will". I don't consider myself free if me fate is already set out before I'm even created.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that technically my definition is wrong. Is there another definition/word for us having free will, but not being able to escape fate?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, I know this is an extreme shocker for anyone on this forum, but I believe I have been proven wrong *gasp*. I still stand that my point disproves the idea of Heaven and Hell though, which is what I was trying to argue in the first place :P .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like that's one admission of being in the wrong for 10000000 attempts. Here you go Reb, you've earned it. :P =D>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

275px-Choco_chip_cookie.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your beliefs are contradictory. That means at least one part of your beliefs (God is omniscient or free will exists) is wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stop asserting that you don't know what God knows. No one does. That has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Main Entry: omÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷niÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷scient

 

 

 

Pronunciation: -sh&nt

 

 

 

Function: adjective

 

 

 

Etymology: New Latin omniscient-, omnisciens, back-formation from Medieval Latin omniscientia

 

 

 

1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight

 

 

 

2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

 

 

 

- omÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷niÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷scientÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷ly adverb

 

 

 

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/omniscient

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Being omniscient has nothing to do with free will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Being omniscient is a state of awareness. Free will is a matter of control. They are two different topics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because God knows what we are going to do before we do it doesn't mean he is ordering us to do every action. It just means he is aware of those actions before they are acted upon.

Ambassadar.png
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Yeah, and I've never heard a human being say "Wow, science has brought me so much fulfillment in life! I'm so glad I've spent my life acquiring knowledge that neither affected my heart nor helped me love the people around me".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When you're on your deathbed, are you going to say "Gee, I just wish I had studied science more!"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You ever heard of the advice that many people give to new university students? You should study something which you love, and for many people science is that thing. I know for certain that I wouldn't be doing a science degree if I didn't find it fulfilling, I didn't think you would be one to disagree with this point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some people get fulfilment from stamp collecting and making model trains, does that affect the heart or the love of others? I wouldn't be surprised if they regretted not finishing their train models or stamp collections before they died either. I guess your ears just aren't open much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ah. an arguer willing to admit he may actually be wrong. My faith in humanity has been restored somewhat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now if only the other side would follow suit... :-w

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't say anything sooner because I went to bed, sorry. But I am glad that we realized that we have a difference in opinion on free will rather than omniscience. Anyway what I am trying to say is that I don't know for certain that God is omniscient because the only proof I have is a 2000 year old book that tells me so, which I have begun to lose faith in ever since I came out and then read 1 Corinthians 6:9. But any how what I really want to get across is that I also may be wrong. I guess we may never know until the final judgment, that is of course if there is one. I was great to have an intellectual discussion about this without it becoming a flame war. And furthermore I think you have some very deep and wonderful views on the God and faith and I hope you don't lose them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks like that's one admission of being in the wrong for 10000000 attempts. Here you go Reb, you've earned it. :P =D>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

275px-Choco_chip_cookie.jpg

 

 

 

I'd'a preferred a cookie cake, but a chocolate chip cookie will do I suppose :-w .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

10000 attempts is referring to the general Tip.it community, not me, right :lol: ? It'd be an insult I think if you were talking specifically to me :lol: .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your beliefs are contradictory. That means at least one part of your beliefs (God is omniscient or free will exists) is wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stop asserting that you don't know what God knows. No one does. That has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Main Entry: omÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷niÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷scient

 

 

 

Pronunciation: -sh&nt

 

 

 

Function: adjective

 

 

 

Etymology: New Latin omniscient-, omnisciens, back-formation from Medieval Latin omniscientia

 

 

 

1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight

 

 

 

2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

 

 

 

- omÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷niÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷scientÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷ly adverb

 

 

 

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/omniscient

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Being omniscient has nothing to do with free will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Being omniscient is a state of awareness. Free will is a matter of control. They are two different topics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because God knows what we are going to do before we do it doesn't mean he is ordering us to do every action. It just means he is aware of those actions before they are acted upon.

 

 

 

Kudos to you for pointless repeating what Nitra said after he elaborately explained his position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the topic of free will, what do you guys think about our environment "controlling"? Theoretically, our actions are nothing more than reactions to our environment, and therefore the creation of the universe and everything following "controls" us. I've heard some views of us having something "more" inside us, so what is your opinion on this argument? :-k

[if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or

by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.]

 

Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10000 attempts is referring to the general Tip.it community, not me, right :lol: ? It'd be an insult I think if you were talking specifically to me :lol: .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At the broader community, so no offense intended. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

just a quick btw. I'm not a she, I'm a he.

 

 

 

Uh... that was a typo!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alright :P . You've got a feminine username though :P . Maybe add a masculine signature or something, this kind of stuff gets confusing :-k . Rather, we should make everyone add something to their sig or whatever declaring their gender :-k .

[if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or

by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.]

 

Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kudos to you for pointless repeating what Nitra said after he elaborately explained his position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had typed up my response earlier and forgot to post it so when I was looking through my open tabs I noticed I had an unsubmitted message up. I submitted it and it turns out what I said had already been mentioned already.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*shrug*

Ambassadar.png
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...

 

According to the bible, the world is 6000 years old. Yet, it is PROVEN the world is approximately 4.5 billion years old. Fossils, examinations of the earths crust say that the world is billions of years old. Some people with a voice in their head is all the proof it is 6000 years old.

 

 

 

Here is another point in which shows the world cannot be 6000 years old:

 

 

Please, explain to me how the light from the distant stars is here. How can we see anything in the universe past our own solar system. We simply wouldn't be able to, for light wouldn't have had enough time to travel this far.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Every that is explained about the dinosaurs is pure theory. Yes theya re alive, but carbon dating is pure speculation. Second, there isn't any way to know the distance of the stars. We would have to make a timer on how long it would take for a newborn star's light to reach earth, then plug in the formula. If the closest star (guessing) is around 54 light years, then a 54 year record should be instituted, but this whole speculation on carbon dating is just bogus (there ARE outside forces that act upon the elements, the Earth is not a controlled experiement).

menea_reuter.pnglinkresponsewb2.th.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kudos to you for pointless repeating what Nitra said after he elaborately explained his position.

 

 

 

I had typed up my response earlier and forgot to post it so when I was looking through my open tabs I noticed I had an unsubmitted message up. I submitted it and it turns out what I said had already been mentioned already.

 

 

 

*shrug*

 

Well, with a bump comes something I should've said after this post:

 

 

 

Sorry dude :P . Musta had a bad day or something :-k .

[if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or

by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.]

 

Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know whats been discussed here but heres some stuff I know

 

 

 

The Bible has been proven true in many of its things time and time again.

 

 

 

Jesus - Ancient Roman Documents prove that a man named Jesus lived during the time the Bible says, Historians (not christians, friends of christians and some against christianity) have shown in their historical books that Jesus existed, he claimed to be the Son of the One and only God ect.

 

 

 

The Book of Luke - The book of Luke holds hundreds of peices of information concerning the roman empire and things like that and not one bit of it was incorrect it was completely true - many Historians (again not christians or friends of christianity) have desribed Luke as one of the Greatest Historians to ever live. The reason they have said this is because of his great detail and knowledge of the happenings of that time.

 

 

 

The Darkness after Jesus' Death - Countless historical books found from across the world have been found with the fact that a enormous darkness covered the entire world on this day and the day said is the same as described in the Bible - the day of Jesus' death. A great historian (sorry forgot his name) described it like as of Solar Eclipse and he referenced it to the same day as Jesus' death and this man was a enemy of christianity.

 

 

 

I know there's more facts I just got to find my notes and remember them - I'll get back to you guys on this

unorclanpixelsigzu1.png

Thanks to the amazing talent of Jopie211 for the sig!

Finest Fist of Guthix Strategy Guide

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please cite sources at least, since whatever you say is useless without them.

Signature3.gif

With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Every that is explained about the dinosaurs is pure theory. Yes theya re alive, but carbon dating is pure speculation. Second, there isn't any way to know the distance of the stars. We would have to make a timer on how long it would take for a newborn star's light to reach earth, then plug in the formula. If the closest star (guessing) is around 54 light years, then a 54 year record should be instituted, but this whole speculation on carbon dating is just bogus (there ARE outside forces that act upon the elements, the Earth is not a controlled experiement).

 

 

 

You are misguided to think that carbon dating is pure speculation. Have anything which isn't bias to back that up?

 

 

 

Also, that isn't how the distance of stars are measured. Ever heard of trig? It isn't hard to get the coords of a star, and then get it a few months later after the earth has rotated then use angles, and the distance that point on the earth has moved to work out how far away the star is.

 

 

 

About the 'outside forces acting on the elements' If so, there is still a constant, otherwise they wouldn't have been using carbon dating. Many people much smarter than you, people who have actually done experiments stand by carbon dating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

According to the bible, the world is 6000 years old. Yet, it is PROVEN the world is approximately 4.5 billion years old. Fossils, examinations of the earths crust say that the world is billions of years old. Some people with a voice in their head is all the proof it is 6000 years old.

 

 

 

Here is another point in which shows the world cannot be 6000 years old:

 

 

Please, explain to me how the light from the distant stars is here. How can we see anything in the universe past our own solar system. We simply wouldn't be able to, for light wouldn't have had enough time to travel this far.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Every that is explained about the dinosaurs is pure theory. Yes theya re alive, but carbon dating is pure speculation. Second, there isn't any way to know the distance of the stars. We would have to make a timer on how long it would take for a newborn star's light to reach earth, then plug in the formula. If the closest star (guessing) is around 54 light years, then a 54 year record should be instituted, but this whole speculation on carbon dating is just bogus (there ARE outside forces that act upon the elements, the Earth is not a controlled experiement).

 

 

 

(1) Theories aren't guesses, they are explanations based on fact, observations and tests.

 

 

 

(2) Based on the inaccuracy of the method over something like 60,000 years, carbon dating is not used to date dinosaur fossils.

 

 

 

(3) Carbon dating is not pure speculation. It's based on a mathematical equation, as are all radiometric dating methods. Carbon dating isn't the only one; from memory there are something like 40 or more other isotope decay paths used to date rock. Each give a corroborated view at how old a rock sample is.

 

 

 

For your interest, the oldest dated mineral on planet earth is zircon from my country of Australia, (specifically Jack Hills, Western Australia) dated at around 4.4 billion years old.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.