Tip.it Times 7 February 2010

[Mirror]

Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

 

When replying please make sure to clarify the article you are replying to! Thanks!

 

Enjoy the articles!

[Pinkbullet3]

Imagine what NPC's do when no one is around to watch them, now that's character!

 

:ph34r:

[atronic92]

Whoops, that link goes to last week's Tip.it Times. Here's this week's >>The Tip.it Times<<

[Sir_Squab]

Personally, I'm not too worried about bosses maxing out. Insead of making them stronger, make them harder to fight. Tormented Demons are a good example; if your good, you can kill lots if your good at it, but you have to be good at it. Insetad of strong bosses, just bosses that require more strategy to fight.

[SythenRs]

How about just updating the bosses, make them have more health, hit harder and increase the stats on the items they drop?

 

But I do agree that the HP cap will come into play sooner or later. A boss that hits 90 and food that heals 50-60??

[Sir_Squab]

I like more original bosses then high hits and HP. Called imagination....Food that heals 50-60 is also overpowered imo. But seriously just original bosses that require strategy to fight, not just stand and smack. What if you made a boss that you needed to prayer swtich and run away from? That would be difficult, but it's difficulty that requires more "skill" then levels/

 

Just random ideas. What about weapon switching? Theres lots of elements in different boss fights already that you could use for a hard boss, and probably more things yet to be imagined.

[DracomancerV]

Responding to the topic, I see what he means. As more and more updates are released, people get access to weapons and food that cause bosses to be utter pushovers. So Jagex is forced to implement tougher bosses. Then they add weapons, armor, food, etc. that cause the new bosses to suffer the KBD effect. Then they add in Corporeal Beasts and Nomads. This is where I hit a problem. I like how they dealt with the Corporeal Beast in Summer's End: evading it and using secondary methods to weaken it abd having it as a "Hunt" boss. Nomad, however, I have a gripe with. You're forced into a fight where it's less a boss battle than a "How fast can you click the brews?" fight.

As Jagex piles on more powerful equipment, items, and prayers, they have to make the bosses having 500+ hp with five different kinds on nuclear weapons for attacking.

So the question is, now that they have Nomad and the Corporeal Beast as bosses, what next? What else are they going to stack on top of the all-but-one HP bomb and the automatic 75 missile?

I really think that Jagex needs to strengthen the "left behind" bosses. Otherwise, there'll just be more of these WTFBOMB farting asspounder bosses.

And those do NOT make for a fun game...

[Big_Stingman]

Hey when I went to GWD it was plenty hard for me, but take into account I am no level 138...

 

Even so, I had a real fun time. Much more fun with groups. That's my two cents.

[jettrider]

Seeing as the Corporeal Beast can now be easily soloed (first made possible with the discovery of Statius' Warhammers, then made even easier by Overloads), I'd say RS is seriously lacking a tough boss monster.

 

In my opinion, the whole concept of grinding for cash needs to be done away with. Zilyana and Kril drop bones and ashes as 100% drops, while Kreearra's big bones and Graardor's ourg bones aren't much better. The average drop value from these bosses is about 20k if you don't count the large drops, and it will take you about 300 kills for every hilt.

 

In part this is due to updates, as mentioned, and just general time. When the KBD first came out, and hell even when RS2 started, there was a much smaller proportion of people at a high combat level. Today, with 110k combat exp per hour available at armored zombies, hundreds of thousands of people have maxed a melee stat. With all the armor updates, the value of dragon armor - once worth 2-6m+ in an economy where gold was worth a lot more - has crumbled to just above alch value in an economy where gold means almost nothing. With the bolts update and the antifire potion, the KBD can be soloed by a person with 40-50 range and nothing else. So now you have a monster that is both pathetically easy to kill and drops junk because of other updates.

 

What RS needs is a boss monster that cannot be defeated without a team, a monster that will NEVER be defeated by a team smaller than 4-5 people. It needs to be in either an instanced area or have a system where two teams can work together. It should have WAY more hitpoints than the corporeal beast or else have much higher defense so it takes a long time to kill, and every kill it should give a 100% drop worth about 50-100k+ to every player who contributed (or perhaps a proportional reward based on damage done). Only then should it IMPARTIALLY (not give it to people that spend hours and hours getting LSP) select a player to give a very good drop to - the best drop should only be perhaps 1 in 30-40. The idea here is that killing this thing even once should be an accomplishment, so when you kill it you know you are going to get something good. It just needs to become a matter of the challenge involved. I would even support a system in which getting a rare drop at all becomes more common as your group consists of less people.

 

I'm talking about a monster that is twice as hard to kill with a group of 5 level 130s than it was to kill Nomad alone. That's the kind of challenge that needs to be present in at least one place in RuneScape to end the SafeScape/GrindScape combo.

[strilmus]

Hey, you know how in some multiplayer games where they design bosses that require more than one person because it's literally impossible for one person to harm it all the time without the assistance of somebody else? Why don't they try something like that? Maybe make the thing so large that it takes up several floors of a structure and make it so that one person on each floor has to coordinate with the others to hit it at the right times?

 

Perhaps too ambitious?

[aspeeder]

Seeing as the Corporeal Beast can now be easily soloed (first made possible with the discovery of Statius' Warhammers, then made even easier by Overloads), I'd say RS is seriously lacking a tough boss monster.

 

In my opinion, the whole concept of grinding for cash needs to be done away with. Zilyana and Kril drop bones and ashes as 100% drops, while Kreearra's big bones and Graardor's ourg bones aren't much better. The average drop value from these bosses is about 20k if you don't count the large drops, and it will take you about 300 kills for every hilt.

 

In part this is due to updates, as mentioned, and just general time. When the KBD first came out, and hell even when RS2 started, there was a much smaller proportion of people at a high combat level. Today, with 110k combat exp per hour available at armored zombies, hundreds of thousands of people have maxed a melee stat. With all the armor updates, the value of dragon armor - once worth 2-6m+ in an economy where gold was worth a lot more - has crumbled to just above alch value in an economy where gold means almost nothing. With the bolts update and the antifire potion, the KBD can be soloed by a person with 40-50 range and nothing else. So now you have a monster that is both pathetically easy to kill and drops junk because of other updates.

 

What RS needs is a boss monster that cannot be defeated without a team, a monster that will NEVER be defeated by a team smaller than 4-5 people. It needs to be in either an instanced area or have a system where two teams can work together. It should have WAY more hitpoints than the corporeal beast or else have much higher defense so it takes a long time to kill, and every kill it should give a 100% drop worth about 50-100k+ to every player who contributed (or perhaps a proportional reward based on damage done). Only then should it IMPARTIALLY (not give it to people that spend hours and hours getting LSP) select a player to give a very good drop to - the best drop should only be perhaps 1 in 30-40. The idea here is that killing this thing even once should be an accomplishment, so when you kill it you know you are going to get something good. It just needs to become a matter of the challenge involved. I would even support a system in which getting a rare drop at all becomes more common as your group consists of less people.

 

I'm talking about a monster that is twice as hard to kill with a group of 5 level 130s than it was to kill Nomad alone. That's the kind of challenge that needs to be present in at least one place in RuneScape to end the SafeScape/GrindScape combo.

I agree for the most part, especially making instanced dungeons for small group raids, but I cannot imagine making a boss TWO TIMES HARDER THAN NOMAD! Maybe as hard as, or even a bit harder, but realize the limits of levels, equipment, weapons, and food in the status quo.

[BeNiceOk]

I'm talking about a monster that is twice as hard to kill with a group of 5 level 130s than it was to kill Nomad alone. That's the kind of challenge that needs to be present in at least one place in RuneScape to end the SafeScape/GrindScape combo.

 

It all depends on the term "harder". How far does Jagex have to go to make a boss "hard enough".

 

As it is, the CB can already 2-3 hit most players if they are unlucky. What makes a boss harder, but not at the point where it has to much of a KO factor?

 

If you introduce a boss that can hit 70's on a regular basis, you'll change the entire boss-hunting game-play. Most players will not risk gear in a place that is certain death. 3 Item'ers will take over and bypass anything that added risk to the monster. CB already has this somewhat.

 

If the boss doesn't hit high, people camp it with perfect gear for hours. If the boss hits high, people bring no risk gear and the boss loses the whole risk vs reward factor. The medium in-between is GWD bosses.

 

DK's is an excellent concept of what bosses should be, as they are easy to kill when killed correctly, but a small mistake can easily KO.

 

Is it really going to take a boss where you have a 50% chance to lose millions to be challenging? That sounds more like a bet of Russian Roulette than a challenge to me.

 

[hide=My Idea for an "ideal" boss]

 

Living Rock Boss

 

Defense: High Melee, Medium Range, Negative Magic

HP: 1000

Attack: Melee, with a special effect.

Max hit: 70

Melee attack: Hits everyone in a 1 square radius around the Boss

Special Effect: Each attack drains prayer on a 1:1 ratio of what it hits (or would have hit).

 

Tactic: Since the boss hits hard and drains prayer, the only way to defeat it is to use magic to "hold" the boss. The bosses 100% drops would be 10 separate drops of generous supply of runes to cover the cost of holding spells needed to be used.

 

This boss adds challenge in the fact that you need to be efficient in "holding" the boss away from you to stay alive. As long as that is achieved, there is 0 death factor. If you do not hold him however, there is little room for error.

[/hide]

[nerdboyxxx]

I believe the problem here has two sides to it; One where there are stronger bosses, and the other where there are harder bosses.

 

Stronger bosses aren't that flash. Sure, they have the drops, the max hits, and everything else, but in the end its just a little (or big) object moving around a screen which you have to whack with your sword/shoot at/firebomb until it dies. No strategy involved, unless you count spamming food and pots to be strategy (of course, there are probably many more things required in boss fights but I don't ven do combat. But don't shun my post just yet ;)).

 

Now, harder bosses are what we should see. As stated earlier, bosses such as Tormented Demons, which require practice and some skill to do well at, are the kinds of bosses we need. Sure, we're nowhere near that are just yet, but with a little imagination and development we could see some great bosses appear. We now have curses, some awesome combat gear and some more spells to use for the higher levels, which can come into play. For example, a boss that requires you to switch prayers frequently (or curses), requires the player to atack from all three sides of the combat triangle (or get a friend to help if they're magic is low, as a small example), force you to relocate every 10-20 seconds (possibly a surface area attack that can hit multiple tiles in the room?). All the content we have now I reckon is bieng wasted, making it just another grind for some hilt or tiny piece of a bigger sword, that really takes away from the whole experience.

 

To stop the grinding, we can ensure that every player that faces this uber-ownage boss gets a good reward (maybe 50K each battle) and make sure that the battles don't finish in two minutes or less. A high summoning level will be required, so you can take extra items or to give you a REQUIRED bonus to a certain stat (for example, some players may be tasked with maging whist carrying extra supplies for the meleers, and extra bolts/arrows for the rangers).

 

All these little or big things that you can use are bieng wasted in favour of bigger, stronger boss monsters that require no skill whatsoever, and amount to nothing but piling it with a flurry of melee or range attacks until its health hits rock bottom. If they actually got creative and developed a boss that was HARD to fight, than we might not need to worry about a HP buffer for some time :).

[jettrider]

Seeing as the Corporeal Beast can now be easily soloed (first made possible with the discovery of Statius' Warhammers, then made even easier by Overloads), I'd say RS is seriously lacking a tough boss monster.

 

In my opinion, the whole concept of grinding for cash needs to be done away with. Zilyana and Kril drop bones and ashes as 100% drops, while Kreearra's big bones and Graardor's ourg bones aren't much better. The average drop value from these bosses is about 20k if you don't count the large drops, and it will take you about 300 kills for every hilt.

 

In part this is due to updates, as mentioned, and just general time. When the KBD first came out, and hell even when RS2 started, there was a much smaller proportion of people at a high combat level. Today, with 110k combat exp per hour available at armored zombies, hundreds of thousands of people have maxed a melee stat. With all the armor updates, the value of dragon armor - once worth 2-6m+ in an economy where gold was worth a lot more - has crumbled to just above alch value in an economy where gold means almost nothing. With the bolts update and the antifire potion, the KBD can be soloed by a person with 40-50 range and nothing else. So now you have a monster that is both pathetically easy to kill and drops junk because of other updates.

 

What RS needs is a boss monster that cannot be defeated without a team, a monster that will NEVER be defeated by a team smaller than 4-5 people. It needs to be in either an instanced area or have a system where two teams can work together. It should have WAY more hitpoints than the corporeal beast or else have much higher defense so it takes a long time to kill, and every kill it should give a 100% drop worth about 50-100k+ to every player who contributed (or perhaps a proportional reward based on damage done). Only then should it IMPARTIALLY (not give it to people that spend hours and hours getting LSP) select a player to give a very good drop to - the best drop should only be perhaps 1 in 30-40. The idea here is that killing this thing even once should be an accomplishment, so when you kill it you know you are going to get something good. It just needs to become a matter of the challenge involved. I would even support a system in which getting a rare drop at all becomes more common as your group consists of less people.

 

I'm talking about a monster that is twice as hard to kill with a group of 5 level 130s than it was to kill Nomad alone. That's the kind of challenge that needs to be present in at least one place in RuneScape to end the SafeScape/GrindScape combo.

I agree for the most part, especially making instanced dungeons for small group raids, but I cannot imagine making a boss TWO TIMES HARDER THAN NOMAD! Maybe as hard as, or even a bit harder, but realize the limits of levels, equipment, weapons, and food in the status quo.

 

I killed Nomad with a full inventory of brews left (used 25 sharks in yak and a couple prayer pots) on my first try, so even if I was lucky it's not hard at all. And anyway, you can always bring more than 5 level 130s if taking the scenario I mentioned :D Should 5 people be able to take down something extremely epic so easily?

 

As for how to make bosses harder, the best solution is to slightly increase the maximum damage but to increase the rate of attack. In one attack turn, players can currently heal:

-14 from unicorn stallion special

-15 from saradomin brew

-23 from rocktail

 

For a total of 52 hitpoints per round. There goes that 50 hit. Anyway, 50-60 seems like a reasonable max hit, as it makes you pay attention to avoid getting 2-hit. I like the Corporeal Beast element where certain items are ineffective (defence is useless there) and the TDs/DKs ways of making monsterhunting unique. If you combine all those on a monster that attacks quickly, with attacks from all three combat styles, and has high hitpoints with multiple minions defending it, you can start to get the kind of tactically and brute strengthwise challenging monster.

[stonewall337]

Seeing as the Corporeal Beast can now be easily soloed (first made possible with the discovery of Statius' Warhammers, then made even easier by Overloads), I'd say RS is seriously lacking a tough boss monster.

 

In my opinion, the whole concept of grinding for cash needs to be done away with. Zilyana and Kril drop bones and ashes as 100% drops, while Kreearra's big bones and Graardor's ourg bones aren't much better. The average drop value from these bosses is about 20k if you don't count the large drops, and it will take you about 300 kills for every hilt.

 

In part this is due to updates, as mentioned, and just general time. When the KBD first came out, and hell even when RS2 started, there was a much smaller proportion of people at a high combat level. Today, with 110k combat exp per hour available at armored zombies, hundreds of thousands of people have maxed a melee stat. With all the armor updates, the value of dragon armor - once worth 2-6m+ in an economy where gold was worth a lot more - has crumbled to just above alch value in an economy where gold means almost nothing. With the bolts update and the antifire potion, the KBD can be soloed by a person with 40-50 range and nothing else. So now you have a monster that is both pathetically easy to kill and drops junk because of other updates.

 

What RS needs is a boss monster that cannot be defeated without a team, a monster that will NEVER be defeated by a team smaller than 4-5 people. It needs to be in either an instanced area or have a system where two teams can work together. It should have WAY more hitpoints than the corporeal beast or else have much higher defense so it takes a long time to kill, and every kill it should give a 100% drop worth about 50-100k+ to every player who contributed (or perhaps a proportional reward based on damage done). Only then should it IMPARTIALLY (not give it to people that spend hours and hours getting LSP) select a player to give a very good drop to - the best drop should only be perhaps 1 in 30-40. The idea here is that killing this thing even once should be an accomplishment, so when you kill it you know you are going to get something good. It just needs to become a matter of the challenge involved. I would even support a system in which getting a rare drop at all becomes more common as your group consists of less people.

 

I'm talking about a monster that is twice as hard to kill with a group of 5 level 130s than it was to kill Nomad alone. That's the kind of challenge that needs to be present in at least one place in RuneScape to end the SafeScape/GrindScape combo.

I agree for the most part, especially making instanced dungeons for small group raids, but I cannot imagine making a boss TWO TIMES HARDER THAN NOMAD! Maybe as hard as, or even a bit harder, but realize the limits of levels, equipment, weapons, and food in the status quo.

 

I killed Nomad with a full inventory of brews left (used 25 sharks in yak and a couple prayer pots) on my first try, so even if I was lucky it's not hard at all. And anyway, you can always bring more than 5 level 130s if taking the scenario I mentioned :D Should 5 people be able to take down something extremely epic so easily?

 

As for how to make bosses harder, the best solution is to slightly increase the maximum damage but to increase the rate of attack. In one attack turn, players can currently heal:

-14 from unicorn stallion special

-15 from saradomin brew

-23 from rocktail

 

For a total of 52 hitpoints per round. There goes that 50 hit. Anyway, 50-60 seems like a reasonable max hit, as it makes you pay attention to avoid getting 2-hit. I like the Corporeal Beast element where certain items are ineffective (defence is useless there) and the TDs/DKs ways of making monsterhunting unique. If you combine all those on a monster that attacks quickly, with attacks from all three combat styles, and has high hitpoints with multiple minions defending it, you can start to get the kind of tactically and brute strengthwise challenging monster.

 

Except you are wrong... Defense is VERY useful at the CB. Go there in prossy and karils, and with super defense and without, and tell me there is no difference. The super defense really helps corpies melee from being able to hit you as often, and karils dramatically reduces the chance of being comboed by the mage attack.

[Obtaurian]

As others have said, we really need a boss monster that has EVERYTHING. I'd like to see a monster with:

 

- High max hit (50-70).

 

- High HP (2,500-5,000).

 

- Uses protection prayers.

 

Becomes weak to various styles of attack at different stages in the fight (perhaps something along the lines of a boss having armor that is practically immune to everything but crush attacks. Once the armor is shattered it becomes a little bit more vulnerable, perhaps requiring rangers to hit weak spots, warriors to tank it and distract it, and mages to rain the bulk of the damage on it until it's weak enough to kill using melee [perhaps requiring stab or slash attacks during this stage]).

 

- Has AoE attacks and fires wave-like projectiles in random directions that must be avoided.

 

- Uses all forms of combat, of course.

 

- Needs to randomly go Super Saiyan.

 

(The last part is a joke.)

 

Basically, combine the Corporeal Beast, Jad, Tormented Demons, Kree, Zilyana, and the Dag Kings.

[Napalm]

The kind of bosses I'd really like to see added to runescape are Penance queen type of bosses, where everyone has a job in the team, and you rely on more than just walking in, attacking, and eating when necessary. I think, although more challenging, the team work can make it more fun.

[elucin8er]

It's simple really, create a boss that gets tougher over time, or perhaps has phases. Meaning it'd be impossible to solo, as your single dps would never be high enough to kill it before it starts hitting 99 +

 

I'd love to see a boss that required "healers." Far too much goes into eating / taking pots. Creating a boss that required you to continually hit if within melee range would make food useless here, as well as REQUIRE healers. This gives magic more involvement in boss fights, and adds a new dynamic to the game.

[elucin8er]

To add to difficulty, it's hard to make a game like Runescape difficult pve wise. The only thing we can really rely on here is going to be observation, for instance, if a boss were to perform some action, you would have to respond quickly. Chaining these reactions would incorporate skill, as clicking + prayer swapping doesn't seem to cut it.

[Sir_Squab]

Healers would only work in a mini game like setting (we have healers at barb assautl) or if you made lunar mages invulnerable at that boss. Of course they can't attack.

 

I also think that this ideal boss wouldn't hurt you that much if you do it right, but you have to do it right.

 

The problem is, people will always be complaining about how hard a boss is, because people will always figure out the perfect strategy to make him easy. Unless Jagex just makes something obscenely powerful...this has already been tried with corp though. I personally don't think an obscenely powerful boss is the answer.

[jettrider]

Except you are wrong... Defense is VERY useful at the CB. Go there in prossy and karils, and with super defense and without, and tell me there is no difference. The super defense really helps corpies melee from being able to hit you as often, and karils dramatically reduces the chance of being comboed by the mage attack.

 

Half right.

 

Karils does nothing. Super defence potion makes a difference for all of his attacks.

[HexiledRazz]

I actually just got done doing a few solos with the KBD. Then i decided to come here, and look what the Tip.it times was =P

 

It's basically what will always happen. Jagex comes out with new bosses, players come up with tactics to kill the bosses most efficiently. Plus, in time they also get new items to kill the bosses with. It's a never ending cycle.

 

 

...Or is it?

This really can't go on forever. Jagex will soon exploit every boss idea that is possible, without making them impossible. And more powerful items will come out for use in all forms of combat.

 

...And yet we're still stuck with 99 sad little hitpoints...

[Troacctid]

I actually just got done doing a few solos with the KBD. Then i decided to come here, and look what the Tip.it times was =P

 

It's basically what will always happen. Jagex comes out with new bosses, players come up with tactics to kill the bosses most efficiently. Plus, in time they also get new items to kill the bosses with. It's a never ending cycle.

 

 

...Or is it?

This really can't go on forever. Jagex will soon exploit every boss idea that is possible, without making them impossible. And more powerful items will come out for use in all forms of combat.

 

...And yet we're still stuck with 99 sad little hitpoints...

Or, you can introduce localized game mechanics/equipment that only work in the boss area, as they hinted at for their next high-level dungeon.

[Kalafai]

Let us not forget the Kalaphite Queen, a boss that is still rarely soloed, despite her age, that forces you to both melee and something else, has a particular weakness, has a particular weapon effective VS her, summons minions, and fights from all sides of the triangle.

[jettrider]

Let us not forget the Kalaphite Queen, a boss that is still rarely soloed, despite her age, that forces you to both melee and something else, has a particular weakness, has a particular weapon effective VS her, summons minions, and fights from all sides of the triangle.

 

KQ's two forms were a great idea, and while the best gear was still hybrid range/hally in a big team, or even veracs set duo, the increasing combat level of the average person and the gear updates have made it much too easy. You can solo 4 KQs per trip whereas you used to be able to only duo 1 per trip.