compfreak847

All I am saying that over the course of 1k cannonballs I got just over 25k experience, or simply 25k to round it off. So from that, it shows even when hitting 0's (because it wasn't 1k of actual hits but 1k cannonballs), it averaged at the mid. So how does including 0's, have ko hits throughout the test mean it is wrong? Would that not overall make it more accurate? Something important you are also forgetting, that no amount of maths you can do will show. Level seems to have an effect on the cannon. On the same monster with 0 compared to 89 Range I was averaging 30.8% of the experience. A higher level will make the cannon more accurate, therby even reducing the 0's and increasing overall average experience (although my test with range potion didn't reflect that to well). Cannon does not depend on level, from what I have heard. 25k XP = 12.5 average hit, 30/2 = 15. My 1/6th factor of hits nicely adjusts for 12.5; mutated bloodvelds are nearly 1.6x the HP of the average cannonable slayer task, making the ko adjustment closer to 12.2; making your XP per hour 24.4k XP instead of 25k; a difference of 2% easily allowable for a test range of 1k. The number Zarfot uses is 2.5 minutes to use 1k cannonballs. You have doubled that. Also, the time is important. How else can you calculate if the cannon is worth it? The cannon gets you faster experience at the cost of 2.5 minutes per 1k cannonballs and 190k. It doesn't have an affect on the cannons cost, I never said it did, but it does have an affect to show if the cannon is more efficient. My magical figures were from Qeltars Guide, I explained it all step by step. I'll re-do them just for you: [hide=Aberrant Spectres From Qeltar][/hide] I'm using the rates from the one on the left and the one on the right. But before I go into that i'd like you to look at the middle two. Same gear except Helm and Ammy Helm's 15% was getting slightly more kills than the Ammy. Although he doesn't have a Helm of Neitiznot in that outfit, which will speed it up slightly. So it just shows that they are about equal. As you can see, without a cannon he gets 182 Kills per hour. With a cannon he gets 390 kills per hour. (Don't say but he is on Slayer, he isn't, why else would he use the Salve?) Using a cannon takes up 2364 cannonballs per hour. With a cannon, it takes 28 minutes to kill the same amount as without. That means in that 28 minutes he used up about 1103.2 cannonballs. That costs about 209,608. You now have 32 minutes to make back that money. That means you need to make 393,014 per hour. That means I made a mistake the first time, I know what the mistake was also. I added an extra 2 minutes to the usage of a cannon. I shouldn't have, because that time was already in with the time taken. So that means at 400k per hour, a cannon is owrth using on this task. I've no doubt you'll mention range experience, and that comes down to how you value it. At about 5gp per experience, that means you got 137,875 worth of experience. Even at 3gp each it means you got 82,725. That makes a cannon even more worth it and definitely should be used. Perhaps I find it odd, but why did your number of cannonballs suddenly drop from 1.5k to 1.1k? I realize that you made a mistake in your math, and you were over adjusting for the cannon, but why did the cannonball number suddenly drop, adn why is the damage per cannonball so much higher then our other tests\mathematically proven ones? So now, please explain how that doesn't make sense? You spent X amount of money to save Y amount of time. If in Y time you can make back that X amount of money, a cannon is worth using. Also another thing I didn't add into the cost. Is that because the task went faster, you used less spplies (i.e. Zamorak Brews, Super Strength and Prayer Potions). Why are your numbers changing so much? There is no need for you to re-do unless you plan on doing them properly. Look above, I went through again with how I got my "magical numbers". By dropping the number of cannonballs? :wall: I guess I could try and make some magical numbers too.. but I'm wondering why the number of cannonballs went down 36% However, the numbers I was doing here was to prove how you were again wrong. You yourself had said that Aviansies at 40k per hour and chinchompas are 240k. 40/240 *60 = 10 minutes. You somehow got 8 minutes using that exact same calculation. Doy ou understand that now. So by spending the 80k worth of chinchompas, you saved yourself 50 minutes of time. However, because you didn't use the other method, you are missing out on 400k also. You have 50 minutes to make back that lost money. That is the equivalent of 576k per hour that needs to be made. How is that hard to understand? It is very clear. True that, I guess I had done chinchompas at my earning levels #-o Oh, and using your particular 30 minute aberrant spector test isn't a good idea - real world numbers on a 30 minute test can vary by as much as 10-15%; quite significant here. Try doing your numbers with the REAL ones that I calculated (AND you observed with testing; arguing over the 12.2 or 12.5 XP per cannonball is next to meaningless) Spend X amount to save Y time. In doing so you lose out on Z more money. You now have Y time to make back the Y+Z. Simple no? How didn't you understand this either? "Where did the 147,166 come from?" Umm idk.... might have been that is how you spent on the cannonballs. But no... you're right... that is too obvious and simple. I'll show you again how I got that number: 1,530 cannonballs used per hour which costs 290,700gp per hour. Using a cannon, you complete the Kalphites at almost twice the speed. In other words you saved 29.625 minutes by using up 774 cannonballs which cost 147,167gp (30.375/60 * 290,700). You now have 29.625 minutes to make back that money. That means you need to make the eqivalent of 298,059gp per hour for a cannon to be worth it. If you value Range experience at 3gp each, you also gained 58,050 worth of Range experience also. Making a cannon even more worth it for someone who makes 400k per hour. 'scuse me? First the 1.5k cannonballs was for the half hour, given the 2.7k you claim are used per hour, now they have suddenly jumped to per hour, making 775 cannonballs? Now, for your 30 minute specters test, we have 3 numbers: 1.5k, the first number you used for # of c balls. 1.1k, the new number you used for # of c balls. And last and least, 775 cannonballs you used for calculating the cost of cannon. What? For what its worth, your 775 cannonballs for 175 kills (slightly reduced melee kills due to cannon) @ 90 hp each = 20.3 damage per cannonball? Something's not right; I think we need a larger sample then 30 minuts of killing; both you and I agree that the damage is 12.1-12.5 per cannonball, far less then that. That's just highlighting the inaccuracy of a 30 minute test. I know where you got the 600k from, and that is wrong. If you can't understand that, how can we trust any calculation you do. you spend 290,700 on 1530 cannonballs per hour. However, you were only there for roughly 30 mins. So you spent half that amount. Which also means you have the same amount of time to make back the money which is 290,700. However, the numbers are slightly off halfway, so it is just slightly higher. Your metaphor about the fruit. I wasn't entirely sure about what you were trying to say, but I took a stab at it. But be honest, comparing aples to half apples and half oranges? I took a guess that the apple was range experience from one method and the orange was from another method. So I guessed that if you ranged and used a cannon you would get so much amount of apples and oranges. More fruit in total anyone? Trust me when I say this though, that metaphor which was supposedly to help me understand made less sense than your calculations. Don't try to patronize me either simply because it was a lousy metaphor. Try actually using calculations, those are understandable. I'm patronizing you because you completely failed to understand my metaphor, including thinking that it was about a cannon. You were comparing avansies to chinchompas + our best money maker. I'm saying that's impossible; our comparative range method IS our money maker. For 10 hours of avansies, to make the same profit (necessary for comparison), you have to spend 10 hours at avansies; there's no way you can work chins in. Therefore, if you can only have 10 different kinds of fruits that add to ten, and on 1 side you have 10 apples, you aren't going to squeeze any oranges in there. A rather weak metaphor, to be sure, but you should have grasped the beginning concept. So what... you are comparing getting 99 Slayer using only a cannon compared to chinchompas? Explain how it is the cost factor when you won't be there to gain that much Slayer experience via a cannon. I have already determined two task that at whner you make 400k per hour it is worth it for a cannon to be used. It is simple and clear to understand. It proves that the cannon is worth using. Another example perhaps, this time Skeletal Wyverns: Actally, you did a terrible job, and only proved that the more variables less time you use for a test, the more inaccurate your numbers. [hide=Skeletal Wyverns from Qeltar][/hide] As you can see the only that changed here was a cannon. His rate was increased by about 30% due to a cannon. 41 Wyverns without a cannon. 53 Wyverns with a cannon. You use up 665 cannonballs per hour at a cost of 126,350. 41 Wyverns would take 46.4 minutes with a cannon. In that time you will only use up 514 cannonballs at a cost of 97,660. You now have 13.6 minutes to make back that money. You need to make about 431,331 per hour for a cannon to be worth it. I'd calculate in how much worth of Ranger experience you would get, but the Wyverns have higher defence. If you still got it at the same rate as previous examples that is 38,550 worth of Range experience, which brings the rate under 400k per hour. At 514 cannonballs to kill 12 200 hp monsters, for a total of 2,400 damage and 4,800 XP, with range XP being valued at 3gp each, that's 15k - enough that cannon doesn't even break EVEN in terms of XP. Good example, though. Another one perhaps, Dagannoths, but you choose to kill the level 90's in Waterbirth Dungeon: [hide=Level 90 Dagannoths from Qeltar][/hide] We will use the middle two, as the only difference in a cannon. 177 kills per hour without a cannon. 280 kills per hour with a cannon. You use up 1,244 cannonball per hour at a cost of 236,360 per hour. 177 Dagannoths will take only 33.2 minutes with a cannon. In that time you will use up 688 cannonballs at a cost of 130,720. You now have 26.8 minutes to gain back that 130,720gp. You need to make 292,520gp per hour for a cannon to be worth it. Sevral numbers are off. First of all, your kill rate per hour is 280 with a cannon, so 280/60 = 4.67 kills per minute, right? At that rate, 177 dagannoths divided by 4.67 kills per minute is 38 minutes, not 33. Also, you forgot to include in all of your figures that you were getting 2.67x the XP from melee, but that is (very roughly) made up by the Avansies XP. At 22 minutes to earn 130,720gp, that's 357k per hour - fast approaching our 400k per hour rate. Now take the fact that cannonballs are 192, not 190 each, and that adds another 3k to our total (Nitpicking, I know :lol: ) for 360.2k as the break-even cost of a cannon at daggys. On the good side, his cannonballs are more in line, at 11.6 XP per; slightly lower then my calculated numbers, due to daggys 97 hits vs. my 120 baseline, resulting in more KO hits. So, in conclusion, it would appear that a cannon is worth using for dagganoth tasks - albiet with 40k cheaper then our avansies, it will be saving a couple of minutes out of an hour, with a very small effect on the dagganoth XP, and a virtually unnoticeable effect on our slayer averages overall. Still not convinced, ok another one. Bloodvelds (unfortunately you decide not to do mutated ones as those are too scary looking): [hide=Bloodvelds from Qeltar][/hide] When he did without a cannon, he did it in the Slayer tower. It would slow down your experience though. 107 kills per hour without a cannon. 312 kills per hour with a cannon. In that time you used up 1,704 cannonballs at a cost of 323,760. 107 Bloodvelds would take 20.6 minutes with a cannon. In that time you would use up 584 cannonballs which costs 110,960. You now have 39.4 minutes to make back that money. You have to be able to make 168,875gp per hour for a cannon to be worth it. I mean seriously. After all those examples, how do you still think a cannon isn't worth using? His XP rates for melee are suspect, as he gets 55 more kills per hour with Dharoks; his DH numbers should be fairly in line with normal melee for bloodvields, due to their very low defence, and no slayer mask. Which brings up a very interesting point - your COMPLETELY forgetting to factor the 15% bonus to melee XP due to the slayer mask and +10% superhuman strength prayer; increasing all our melee numbers makes for a very dramatic difference. Let's try bloodvelds again, using his DH numbers instad (I'm inclined to think his melee numbers are a fluke, given how much higher his DH is; whip + defender + slayer mask +10% strength should get at least what his DH numbers should have). 162 kills per hour without a cannon. 312 kills per hour with a cannon. In that time you used up 1,704 cannonballs at a cost of 327,168 162 bloodvelds would take 31.2 minutes with a cannon. In that time you would use up 886 cannonballs which costs 170,112. You now have 28.8 minutes to make back that money. You would have to be able to make 354,400gp per hour for a cannon to be worth it. Again, your cannon rates ARE slightly worth it - but it will take 25.5 minutes to make the cash back with avansies, leaving us with a 3.3 minute gain from cannon, for a 5% increase in bloodvields over normal melee. That makes for a total of around .25% increase in XP for our slayer tasks overall, or around 200 XP to our average slayer task. That isn't the value of experience -.- . Cost over time is simply the cost. I've tried to explain what I mean by value but you don't seem to comprehend what I was implying. Igorning time? When have I ignored time? I have time in every calculation. Refer to above for those calculations... they all have time in it do they not? Mh himm, and all of them but bloodvields illustrated that cannon is worse. Bloodvields grant a 200 XP boost to slayer, though, I'll grant you that... That wasn't the value of experience, that was the cost. There is a difference. I didn't even value you range experience above and I proved that even with no experience gain a cannon is worth using. But you do gain experience, which only makes it more worth using.Cost, when time is included, IS the value of XP. The thing is what you are saying does make sense, but you are still wrong. You can't calculate the cost of Slayer experience by comparing a cannon to a completely different method. I do understand what you are trying to do, but you can't work it out like that. Chinchompas cost less per experience right? The cheaper the Range experience gets the more expensive Slayer gets? I don't think so. Either way regardless of any other training method, you are still going to spend the same amount on cannonballs. You are still going to make tasks go upwards of 30% faster. With 400k as your money making method a cannon is worth using. It is, if your factoring in range XP - A cannon is far inefficienit for training range; by removing range from our equation we are left with a premium paid for slayer XP. And again, the only task that you mentioned where a cannon is worth using is Bloodvields, due to your forgetting to factor increased kill speed from black mask\superhuman strength in. At bloodvields, it speeds up kills by 5% - almost exactly balancing cost out with the extra XP. Why would you need to factor at 0's? In doing so your average hit becomes higher. With the test I did, the 0's were counted in, kos were counted in, and I got just over 25k Range experience, just over 12.5 as the average hit with 0s calculated in. Also, your method and mine both are incorrect to an extent. What about the Defence of said monster? You can't get an average hit of a weapon on one monster, and then expect it to be the same on all monsters. Runescape is a math game?!?!?! Why didn't anyone tell me!?!?!?! I did all those mathematical calculations and I didn't even know it was a math game! Oh my God what have I done!?!?!?! I don't' know, apparently you tried to discredit any sort of calculations, but at least you appear to slowly be grasping them now, even if your calculations are incorrect. Err right.... moving on from that absolutely stupid comment of yours. (facepalm) Yet, he got the ratio of 0.94 over the course of 13.8mil experience. But no... you're right... 13.8mil is hardly a big enough test range.... But yeah, I haven't seen any of this great testing, with numbers of any sort, but yeah... the charms I and everyone else happen to be getting must be off. Perhaps he sent a bribe to the Jagex towers to get higher drop rates then us mere poor people. I'll try sending a message in to Jagex; perhaps they can rectify this apparent oversight. Ok lets see here. Greater Demons according to Qeltars numbers was 165 kills per hour, at 87 xp a kill, which is 14,335 experience per hour. Suqahs 134 kills per hour at 108 Slayer experience each is about 14,472. They have 105 hitpoints, but give slightly more Slayer experience each. Dark Beasts are slightly slower at his rates (this is a cannonable task though, and since a cannon is worth using....) Since it isn't, moot point Warped Terrorbird was 150 hitpoints and 99 kills per hour, that is 14,850 experience. Iron/Steel Dragon and Skeletal Wyverns, the average SLayer has these tasks blocked or will cancel them. Not sure if alot of people skip Mithril ones. His Black Dragons are based on the adults, on babies you will get faster experience. Possibly true about babies, iron drags are not usually blocked, not many people skip miths. Terrorbirds were 13725 XP. Suqahs were 14,070 XP, where is your 14,472 coming from? Same with dark beasts. Again, not really any point in arguing over this - we already have the averages. Funnily enough Zarfot's Guide shows Greaters being at max 21k Slayer experience per hour. Abyssal Demons will get up to 4k more experience than that. Gargoyles are also up to 4k higher than Greater Demons. Waterfiends up to 2k higher, Nechryaels up to 3k higher. Then there is things like Terrorbirds are really up to 51k Slayer experience per hour, Suqahs are 50k, Dark Beasts are 36k. Overall only 4 tasks are slower than Greaters, All the metal dragons and Skeletal Wyverns. the average Slayer will skop those (not completely sure on Mithril Dragons). Also who says you have to gain the money at Aviansies? There are other ways of getting 400k money per hour. I showed my calculations again, and I also stated what you would need to value your Range experience at for it to be worth it. Yup, except avansies happens to be a wide range moneymaker easily done by almost anyone. And the only fair way to value XP is by the time and money it takes to earn it. 5 isn't an even number : . You can level Aviansies and Zombies just as easily with only 1 hour. since we are also going by per hour, it makes to work it out by per hour. I like round numbers, 5 happens to make them round a hair more nicely. I fail to see how my way was more confusing, if anything it was clearer. Prove your numbers wrong huh? *looks at previous post* Yep already done. Yes it was a typo. 60-43.3 = 16.7. So it was just a little mistake. Even still, my next step was based on 16.7 minutes anyway, so the numbres after that are still right. You keep repeating they make no sense, how do they not. Slayer gets 104k per hour overall experience and 50k profit. Zombie Monkies gets 144k per hour overall and 110k loss. For Zombie Monkies to get the same amount of experience as Slayer takes 43.3 minutes. In 43.3 you lose 79.4k (104/144 *110), add to that the 50k profit you wuld have got from Slayer makes 129.4k. You now have 16.7 minutes to gain that 129.4k for Zombie Monkies to be worth it. That means you need to be able to get 466k per hour. Regardless of how you make it (Aviansies or not), you need to regain that much per hour. If it Aviansies you would be 66k behind. If you value range at only 1.65 each then it will be more efficient. Keep in mind training via chinchompas (you say is the most efficient way) costs 3.67 per experience, which makes the value higher than that. So no, if Aviansies is your way of making money, Slayer is more efficient. What? You do realize that you inverted the range XP; if you value range at less then 1.65, it's more efficient; at 3.67 per, it's considerably more efficient. THen again, that's still talking slayer XP - and we're talking combat. Just goes to show that even with slayer, I've already what is wrong with your number many times. Other than a typo (which amazingly changed nothing), you've yet to say anything that is wrong with mine. That would be more than likely due to there not being anything wrong. Other then your forgetting Avansie XP, which I conveniently pointed out (twice). Qeltar's numbers aren't even from Slayer. 100% attention I doubt. Your 100% must be different to other peoples 100% also. Zarfot's numbers, using only superhuman strength can get up to 19k Slayer experience per hour. I've also yet to be "proven wrong" by you. Qeltar's numbers, when adjusted to compensate for slayer mask and +10% strength, happen to work just fine for slayer, nicely matching MY numbers, unlike Zarfots - who must be some sort of a machine, my 100% attention is clicking as fast as I can, never switchign screens, all chat off, no competition, full\nearly full world - I'm also a very fast clicker playing on a low lag connection, so don't worry about that. I also happen to have read his guide, and I've been using all his efficiency techniques - and getting far more XP then I usually do (and now continute to do at my more relaxed training paces, I just got 55k XP an hour for a dust devil task, thanks to talking to friends\not paying 100% attention -- not that it counts for anything, besides showing what most people get. No way of proving, besides my QUALITATIVE observations of the majority of slayer trainers who spend more time standing around, presumably talking to friends, then fighting... they make it easy to beat them to monsters, but I do the same thing when I'm not testing. :oops: Simpler, that is funny. How is taking out Slayer experience a bettre method? It comes down to Slayer being more efficient as overall you will get slightly less experience per hour, but due to the additional money it is better off. Also note that was done wit 50k profit, the rate is higher than that. Ah, now we've run a full circle - you'll get less XP per hour, total, much less combat XP, while still earning the same amount of money. I'm sticking quite firmly at my 50k profit numbers; so far I've lost money on my greator demon (-22k per hour) and dust devil (-11k per hour) tasks, slightly making a profit on 3 gargoyle tasks with a black mystic top and granite maul. Now we get to argue about the profit rates for a while. :lol: The 1-2k is coming from banking. Did I not make that clear? "During the banking time you will lose out on about 1-2k experience per hour." Well it appears I did make it clear. Yes or no, while you leave to go to the bank to restock, and to come back, you are not getting any Slayer experience? The answer is yes. If you could bank in under a minute or two the number wouldn't be that high. This si where you misunderstand the value of experience. Yes it would be 260m for Slayer, however do you know why? 260m is what you would be willing to pay to instantly get the 13mil Slayer experience. Keep in mind 13mil Slayer experience takes about 500 hours (at Zarfot's rate). Meaning if you make over 520k per hour it would be worth spending 260m to instantly get 99 Slayer (but you can't actually buy experience anyway). 300 kills per hour is 90k melee experience per hour (Zamorak Spiritual Mages). Yeah, you did... Apparently you manage to bank, recieve another task, bank again, gear up with the uniqe gear required, and head for GWD in around 1-2 minutes. Interesting, Zarfot would be jealous. And I'm glad you finally figured out my slayer XP rates, but you seem to be confusing my rates using my FAR lower XP rates with Zarfot's 90k melee XP per hour rates. Skewing the results on purpose again are we? You yourself are now saying the rate is 0.89 Summoning to 1 Slayer experience. So why did you tell me to change it to 0.7 before? Well since you have admitted the rate is higher, that makes Slayer even more efficient. Is 13.8mil Slayer experience not over 1-99 Slayer? Sure may have started at 99, but that still gives a very good indication. Because I still believe that many players would be starting at high slayer\low summoning, making pouches less efficient. With the ratio being 0.89 it becomes 7.19X = 144,000 for them to be equal in experience per hour. At 14.9k Slayer experience per hour you now get 107k overall experience per hour (extra 3k). I could walk you through the calculations again, but they are the same as above with 107k instead of 104k. It becomes Zombie Monkies are only more efficient if you can make over 503,611. That is 37,611 higher than before. Except the number wasn't that before, so not only do your 3k per hour XP jumps seemingly have a huge effect on profit required, the profits are incorrect in the first place. Didn't I explain this before? On Slayer with my equipment and using superhuman strength I can hit up to 45. Using an Unholy Book, Trimmed Cape (like you said I should use), using the Salve Ammy (e), I hit up to 45. So the extra 13% Strength bonus just evens out the loss in equipment. So the point about the Strength difference is null. Why do you keep mentioning the equipment that you use, have already established it ends up being equal or worse for you. Yes lower levels, but hardly enough for a significant difference. With piety, you are still hitting less often also. Except I'm hitting 2.5% less for 13% higher hits, continuously. "+10% strength is a tad worse then +23% strength and +20% attack, no?" Yes it is worse, but Zombie Monkies are worse than Dust Devils. So the Strength is equal, the higher Attack helps, but you are still hitting less often. That is why Dust Devils are better. 2.5% attack vs. 13% strength and more combat time... yet your getting better XP. Suspicious, to say the least. It isn't really an "attempt" when I suceeded. I showed without a doubt that unless you make over 500k per hour, provided that you are only training at 14.9k Slayer experience per hour, provided you only gain a profit of 50k from Slayer per hour, that Slayer is more efficient. Calculate in the Slayer rate is alot high as is the profit, only makes Slayer more efficient.It isn't really a success when you are wrong. Oh of course i'll argue about a made up 0.7 rate you told me to use. Then you follow up by saying the rate is 0.89. Right ok, making up numbers again isn't going to help you. I have explained I understand what you were doing at the time, but that it was wrong. You can't determine if a cannon is worth using on Slayr simply because another method gives X amount of experience at Y loss. You can - removing all variables except slayer gives us the values. P.S I checked in a Word doc, this one was 10 pages long :lol: Make that 15 pages, 6.5k words... This is one of my more drawn out debates :ohnoes:

When did I say ko hits had no effect? I have mentioned many times I don't like when people accuse me of saying things when I didn't. My post you quoted is proof itself that I never said anything about it having no effect. I even specifically mentioned how many there were. Also, how can you be sure the average hit is actually the median? Because I've done hit spread tests with several different wepons, indicating that the average hit is at or very close to the average, when the sample is large enough. How can you say that it happens to exactly adjust for the KO xp loss on your average slayer monster? Well that is a mistake. You can't predict how many cannonballs you will use per hour without testing. Nearly every task (where a cannon is applicable) uses over 1k cannonballs, and all those tasks take under an hour to do. Apparently i'm not the only one who misunderstands things (i'll explain this furthur down). You can't be certain that it uses 5 minutes per hour, that is a guess. My maths with the Aberrant Spectres was wildy inaccurate.... perhaps you should actually read them this time. I based what I said on tests (performed by Qeltar, so don't say they are inaccurate). I used Qeltar's numbers, even though mine are higher, I still used his. It did indeed show without a doubt the cost of using a cannon per hour for that task. Do you get what I'm saying? Time it takes does not matter; the only time factered into the equation is the 5 minutes for cannon, and that certainly isn't going to halve the cannon's cost if taken out. The 5 minutes is a fairly decent average for setting up and taken down; I belive that is the number that Zarfot uses - and it hals almost no effect on our final cannon cost; I simply included it for completion. Now that you have given up trying to prove the math wrong, I'm curious as to how your getting these magical numbers for aberrant specters - I calculated it out, with the only figure in questoin the average hit - all the others hard numbers, coded into runescape, like the cost of cannonballs and max hits. Now your suddenly saying that everything's wrong and your getting much better then that - kind of like trying to prove piety wrong by saying you get over 38% of a speed increase, a figure that is mathematically impossible. I know you have stated 400k many times and I knew that, but you haven't said the rate that many which is why I was unsure of the number. However, I would like to point out here that we also see more proof of your mathematical capabilities... Aviansies are 40k per hour you say, and chinchompas are 240k, 40,000/240,000 *60 = 10 minutes, not 8 :o . Also 40,000/240,000 *480,000 = 80,000gp, also not 66k. So that means you have used up 10 minutes to gain the same amount of experience as Aviansies per hour. That leaves 50 minutes to make up the 480k (80k from chinchompas and 400k from Aviansies), that is 576k that needs to be made per hour for chinchompas to be more efficient. With 400k as what the person makes, they are not worth using. Even with your 8 minutes and 66k, that is 537k that needs to be made up. I'm not quite sure as to what you were doing with your numbers, so I won't try and critisize them - but I can redo my cannon equations with them if you'd like, it will just make it look worse for a cannon. You again come back to comparing the cost of a cannon to chinchompas, how many more time do I have to say it isn't needed? The working out I did can be applied to every other task to determine what amount you need to make back per hour for a cannon to be worth using. How about I show you another task then, Kalphites: 162 kills/hour melee only. 320 kills/hour melee with a cannon. You use up 1530 cannonballs in that time, that costs 290,700 (at 190 each). You would complete the task of 162 Kalphites in 30.3 minutes. It cost you 147,166 in order to save 29.7 minutes. You now have 29.7 minutes to make back that money. 147,166/0.494 = 298,059gp per hour. Since we make 400k per hour, a cannon is worth using for this task. Please explain how this is wrong... I see no mistakes. The cannon speeds up the rate of Slayer experience here by almost exactly 100%, that is twice as fast. Also you metaphor with the fruit is nonsensical. Comparing apples to half apples and half oranges.... err, making a fruit salad? Not the same amount of apples if there is even 1 orange. Say you have 10 apples. Compare that to 10 apples and 3 oranges... same amount of apples I see, except now you have more fruit in total. I do. You are spending 290,700k to save 29.7 minutes.. where did your 147,166 come from? That makes for a total of roughly 600k as the break even point. Oh, and my metaphor apparently was misunderstood, it was an attempt to help you understand - I guess it didn't. Not sure how I can explain it to you now, that's about as simple of terms as I could break it down to... Luckily enough, as I have been saying all this... you don't do the numbers with only a cannon. Finally you agree with me. What do you mean if anyway? You worked out the cost of getting 99 Slayer using only a cannon before, which was oh so wrong. I'm doing that so I can calculate the 'cost' factor of 99 slayer; then compare it to known training methods for efficiency calculations. Must I walk you through every step of this? Now we see you really did miss the point, not me. I wasn't referring to time lost/profit/experience per hour or whatever else you think. I am talking about the value of experience, I explained what I meant... yet you still think I am talking about time lost? Read through that again. You also neglected to answer my question. That question was specifically for you to answer on how much you value the experience. Value of experience = (experience gained + cost)/time lost. I'm still unsure of how your doing your efficiency calculations; you can't calculate efficiency by ignoring time. What I said was that if the difference in cost between chinchompas and a cannon is 5.9gp per experience... how on earth does that mean that Slayer costs 5.9gp per experience? That is like saying with Fletching that it costs you 10gp per experince training with magic longs and only 5gp with yew longs... so that means that it costs 5gp each to train Range! (Numbers may not actually be correct, unless I am that good at guessing : )What? I'm including the value of range XP in my calculations, then taking that out, leaving us with slayer XP. I'll try to make it simple for you. Cannon is spending X amount of money for Y range XP and Z slayer XP We can determine the value of range XP, but not of slayer XP. We take the most efficient method of training range, calculate what it costs in actual spending and time lost, then subtract that number from X, allowing Y to drop out Leaving us with X-(range XP value) = Z, slayer XP How is that hard to follow? That isn't even remotely related to fletching XP. Feel free to let me know if you can't understand this either, but I'm not exactly sure how I could make it even simpler? This is general math! So tell me, how can you be 100% sure that the average hit is always half the max hit? You didn't by chance guess that did you?... cause you know... that would make all you calculations inaccurate. Please also explain how your little scenario with Whip was anything close to what I posted (you also said the max hit was 22 with a max hit of 44, think you meant average of 22). 1k cannonballs got me that much Range experience, is that not a "hit spread"? How am I arguing the max hit of the cannon anywy, max hit is 30, you won't see me say otherwise. No, I didn't. No, that's not. Hit spread is a spreadsheet with the numbers for each individual weapon hit, which is then averaged and graphed. This enables you to see exactly how a weapon hits, detect patterns in the hits, and come out with an average. So far I've only done them for whip, AGS, and rune c bow - but unfortunately, I lost whip\c bow and quite a bit of the AGS ones. Fortunately a pattern was obvious - the hits are fairly evenly distributed, with occasional tendencies towards max\1-2 under max, but an average almost exactly sandwiched between 0 and the max, when 0s were not included. These graphs, when done correctly, are far more accurate then subjective testing by monitering XP gain - as that does not allow you to drill down in detail or factor out zeros. Runescape is a math game, my friend. The number is actually 0.94, that was calculated from 13.8mil Slayer experience giving 13mil Summoning experience. The rate for lower levels would be somewhere around 0.8, but i'll put 0.7 anyway. Also, unless I am mistaken, do familiars give Hitpoint experience as well as the target experience? I based my calculations on them not. Using those numbers though i'll show you the calculations again. Yes, they do. And the number is actually 7.4, with 9.6m XP instead of 13m, although it's really a moot point. It becomes 7X = 145,730 X = 20,818 to get the same amount of overall experience per hour. Let us say you get 12.5k Slayer experience per hour. Overall you get 87.5k experience per hour. It would take 36 minutes to gain that much via Zombie Monkies. You have 24 minutes spare to make up 118.64k (68.64k loss at Monkies with only a 50k profit from Slayer). You will have to make, 297k per hour for Monkies to be worth it. I'll explain in the next section why this isn't really right. also. You now Slayer gets approximately 14.9k per hour. So the above test shows the "threshold". Since you now get more experience, that means that Slayer is more efficient after all. Keep in mind you yourself got 15.7k Slayer experience per hour at Greaters. Greaters are about the slowest task that the average Slayer does. So that means the rate is even higher. Even at 14.9k Slayer experience per hour, you would need to make over 466k per hour for Monkies to be more efficient. Also note that 50k isn't correct. The average profit was up to 150k per hour, but I purposely lowered it to 50k to prove a point. At 100k profit per hour from Slayer at 14.9k Slayer experience per hour, you would need to make over 646k per hour for Slayer to be worth it. Hell, lets go up to a rate of 20k Slayer experience per hour (even though the average Slayer will average over that). You'd need to make 5,230k per hour for Monkies to be more efficient (although with my rate at Zilyana that isn't a problem :lol: ). Actually, it isn't, not according to Qeltar, who's rates are very similar to mine - the following tasks were slower: Suqah Dark beast Abyssal demon Gargoyle Black dragon Waterfiend Nechryael Iron dragon Warped terrorbird Skeletal Wyvern Steel dragon Mithril Dragon Your main mistake: you are, again, forgetting to factor the XP of Avansies in - we are using a lower earning rate, but it DOES have some advantages. The extra XP you get cannot be ignored; you basically redid my calculations, simplified, without Avansies; proving nothing. First things first, since we work it by per hour, why do you need to go to 5 hours? For even numbers, allowing us to level out Avansies ans Zombies easily. I guess you could call it 'lazyness' on my part; not that it has any effect on our results. 1 hour of slayer 104k experience per hour and 50k (according to your numbers). For Monkies to gain that much would take 43.3 minutes. You now have 26.7 minutes to make back the loss of 129.4k. That means you need to make the equivalent of 466k per hour. You would also gain in that time 14.8k experience from the Aviansies. So unless you value that experience at 66,000/14,800 = 4.5gp each, Slayer is more efficient. The 66k was the additional money that couldn't be made up within the time limit. 14.8k was experience gained with the time limit. Look at my numbers, tell me if you see a mistake. What? Your rephrasing my numbers, albeit in a more confusing way. How about you rpove my numbers wrong? Oh, and for what its worth... 26.7 minutes to earn 129.4k is 290k per hour, not counting avansies XP. I'm going to assume you made a typo and meant 16.7 minutes. Your efficiency calculations make no sense at all - I guess, since you finally seem to understand MY numbers, I'll leave it to you to point out what's wrong with mine. I guess explaining every step of mine finally worked :) Look above, Slayer is better. Also 'best case' Scenario? That was 14.9k Slayer experience per hour. You get more than that on the slowest Slayer task that the average player will do. No, you don't. Not according to me, not according to Qeltar. Which, until now when proven wrong, you have been going along quite nicely with. I'd also like to mention that my 59k melee XP per hour figures were obtained at 100% attention, with 0 distractions; when actually training slayer the way I normally play RS, its around 45k XP. But I'll go with the 100% attention figure, as it's the only one that should remain fairly consistent across players. Ignore the 5 hours, it is not needed. 1 hour of Slayer is 104k experience and 50k Profit (according to your numbers). For Monkies to gain that much would take 43.3 minutes. You now have 26.7 minutes to make back the loss of 129.4k. That means you need to make the equivalent of 466k per hour. That part was the same as above, as after all nothing in that part changed. Now yes, if you have 91+ runecrafting, then Zombie Monkies are more efficient at that rate. However, I have stated many times that those aren't the rates the average Slayer will train at. You get more than 50k profit per hour and more than 14.9k Slayer experience per hour (you proved the part about the Slayer experience being higher yourself). Also note that in that time you will also gain 7.5k Runecrafting experience. You say if you count Runecrafting experience as valuable as Slayer experience that they can be taken out. Woops. nope they can't. They can only be taken out if you value Runecrafting experience 1.987, or simply twice as much as Slayer experience. Actually, a better method would be to remove slayer XP altogether, as we are talking about training combat, but if you wish to count it see my above calculations. Basically, all my above arguments apply. Feel free to illustrate why my numbers, much simpler and better document then yours, are wrong, because I'm not understanding your efficiency calculations, so rtater then arguing against them, I will simply ask you to evaluate mine, which you seem to be getting. Run on sentence much? I mentioned other factors than simply how often and how high you hit. The Defence bonus here is important. Without it you are guaranteed to have to bank at least once during the task. During the banking time you will lose out on about 1-2k experience per hour. So that means overall you are hitting more often, hitting higher, and on top of that an add on another 1-2k because you did it in one trip. If as you say it will only boost your kill rate by 20% (you mentioned this figure on the second last post, page 14). That means in the time it takes to get say 14k experience without piety, you would get 16.8k with. add on to that about 1.5k (1-2k loss for banking, i'll use 1.5k since it is halfway), that brings it up to 18.3k per hour. 18.3/14 * 100 = 31% increase. Now while that isn't 38%, it is very close. So it is still slightly less efficient, but that tiny extra loss would still be worth it for the increased experience in my opinion. It would be about 483k as the level at which piety becomes worth it for this task. 83k extra for an extra 4.3k experience. So if you value Slayer experience at 19.3 each it is worth using piety. Also note that Dragon Boots are 320.7k at the moment, so if you can kill 151-225 Spiritual Mages per hour (you can do 300 per hour on slayer), and that is at a 1:100 to 1:150 drop rate, then you can make 483k per hour anyway.Unless you can manage to bank in under a minute or two, I'm not sure where the 1-2k is coming from. 38% is the BREAK EVEN point; anything less makes the slayer XP SLOWER due to the increased time needed to earn back the money. And if you value slayer XP at 19.3 each, your spending 260m for 99, oddly close to my calculations. You are forgetting ALL other costs in your dragon boots figures, along with your kill rates (300 an hour? That's well north of 100k XP an hour, for mages). D boots are also selling for near-min, and are only worth 311k currently. Not that that has a whole lot to do with our slayer numbers... That might be true if you can't read properly. Have I not mentioned several times now that it was 13.8mil Slayer experience to 13mil Summoning experience? Since when did I "inconstantly flit" around that? Want to know something else also? From Qeltar's numbers you average 35.63 crimsons per hour for 12,685 Summoning experience per hour. From his numbers you got 12.5k Slayer experience, and that was before you fixed up the table. I got 13.2k from his numbers. That is a ratio of 0.96:1, that is even higher than Zarfot's. So by all means, if you want me to change it to Qeltars rather than Zarfots, it will only make Slayer even more efficient than what it already is. Odd, I got .89, not including the reduction for higher slayer\lower summoning, which, as no one has gotten 1-99 slayer yet since summoning has come out, applies to ALL players. I fail to see how I was doing everything worse than you. I've already gone over this. You hit less often even with a better prayer. So what you say about the prayer doesn't change anything (with the equipment you said, I hit just as high as on Dust Devils with superhuman Strength). Everything worse than you? Nope. Much worse prayers? Nope. Fewer hits maybe, but increased accuracy. They are simply a better monster to train on via Slayer. 2.5% accuracy doesn't make up for the +13% strength of piety, nor the equipment, nor the levels, nor the prayers (+10% strength is a tad worse then +23% strength and +20% attack, no?) Now that Slayer has conclusively been proven to be considerably more efficient, by your numbers I might add, the argument may indeed be around the smaller points. That would only be due to you still trying to find a way for Monkies to be more efficient, when they aren't. That was proven with your numbers. See above arguments; your attempts to prove them wrong are amusing, but assuming we are done arguing about our numbers, my equations stand. Not that they are, but you haven't proven anything wrong with my calcs yet. I've no need to centre my arguments about anything like that. Even using your 0.7 I have proven with your number Slayer is still more efficient. I do understand the calculations you used with the cannon, I however do not agree with the reason behind them. That means while I can understand how you got to the numbers, it wasn't the right way to work it out. No, you haven't... by your arguments, you easily indicate that you don't. Your arguing for the exact things I'm factoring in, and against the ones I didn't... P.S I had trouble previewing this post before I posted it, something about it being invalid. So I saved it to a word doc to make sure I didn't lose all of what I typed up. It is 7 pages :shock: :o :lol: Yeah, has something to do with breaking the smily limit... I did the exact same thing, lol. The fact that we have around 8 separate arguments going through with each round of posting basically means we're condesing 8 posts into one with every round - quite a bit of keyboard use, lol (afraid to use smileys, it's a pain to delete them later :\)

Get a intel duel core, somethingi like the E8500 or 8600 is good. DON'T GO QUAD CORE. A guy at my work dropped 2,200$ on 2 phenom quad cores in one MB - his system smokes anything mutli threaded, but almost nothing is. His only multithreaded app is is dvd ripper - admittedly, it takes him around 3 minutes per encoding, but my 190$ CPU can blast past his in almost every app or game out there. Oh, and go with a GTX 260 or 280 - I highly recommend the 260, I dropped it in my 1400$ build and it screams on almost every game currently selling, while running quiet and cool, and with little power consumption. Warning: make sure it fits your case; it's a long card! Also, get an aftermarket cooler for your CPU - I went with a xigmatech cooler, and my temps are 28 idle, 35c after 6 hours of full bore simultaneous graphics and CPU stressing. The GTX cooling system does a fine job; admittedly, it runs a bit hotter then I'd like under load, but never breaks 70c.

If you're rich enough for that you might as well use the PvP armor too... There's a difference between paying 100m for a shield that gives you unlimited use in many situations and many hundreds of hours of protection unmatched by any other armor vs. paying 15m for armor that breaks in an hour and isn't much better then barrows. It would be cool, though... If I ever get THAT much free cash I'll try it someday \ It's assumed that if you would pay that much for the shield and 99 Summoning that you'd have a lot of free cash to throw around... Your the one who breached the question about steel titan; the most efficient summoning training method winds up at well over 300m for 99, much more then everything else mentioned combined and doubled ;) I don't have a lot of free cash, though - my bank value tends to hover around 60-70m, largely due to a ~20m a month spending on ice\blood barrages at castle wars\fight pits\clan wars, which merching barely balances out, with a little left over for skills :wall: Ancient magicks is such a mixed blessing...

actually ur wrong. I would never be a mod in runescape if given the chance. Your modsmanship gives players a whole new respect for u. I would want to be treated like everyone else. Its like being a copper. Citizens and friends r hiding from u what illegal things they r doing. Friends aren't going to break rules around you; a regular player reporting them would still work. However, everyone else is going to be nicer - not exactly a bad thing? And for those few people that you would normally put on ignore, a mute would work wonders.

If you're rich enough for that you might as well use the PvP armor too... There's a difference between paying 100m for a shield that gives you unlimited use in many situations and many hundreds of hours of protection unmatched by any other armor vs. paying 15m for armor that breaks in an hour and isn't much better then barrows. It would be cool, though... If I ever get THAT much free cash I'll try it someday \

No, I don't. I thought it might have to do with pressing Control+Shift on my laptop at first, as doing so changes my keyboard settings from "US" to "Canadian French" since I have a multi-lingual laptop, but once I couldn't type on my XP desktop, I knew it had to be something different because I only have one language on my desktop. But yeah to fix it, I just had to open RS in a new window. That didn't work. I tested this too, I only had RS open, and it suddenly happened; I couldn't use the keyboard despite not having any other windows opened. Anyway, since I have disabled Flashblock, I haven't had this problem, so maybe it was that extension the whole time. It isn't, I've had flashblock before and it still worked fine. Minimize and maximize the window - it'll work. I have exactly the problem your describing, and it doesn't have to be with multiple windows; simply the java applet losing focus by clicking on the address bar\background\links on the bar above can trigger it, but all are solvable by a minimize\maximize.

Can you explain me how you get 240 xp per grey chin, when I get 235 xp per red chin? I used full void, 10% ranged prayer, geyser titan, and I know what I'm doing (how to get enough monkies around you etc...). I used 1314 chins per hour on average. (168.5 minutes of testing). Used short fuse. edit: 93 ranged edit: check for my topic in this help and advice "quick chinchompa question" for more data At tryto: I got 176 xp per grey chin in a previous test. However, that was starting from the beginning of a trip, and using a tortoise in stead of geyser titan. (and not much experience yet). Greys are only about 40 less then reds, in my testing. I use 15% range, and pot every 4 minutes, I find that's more efficient then letting my level drop to almost normal. I use short fuse too, but I was assuming 1k chins per hour - I haven't specifically tested that, getting more then that would make numbers better for chins.

Protect from melee is 40% protection from player attacks - an often overlooked statement, which really confused me at first when I was speccing 40s on people with pro melee. Piety is +25% to defence, assumed to be your defence level - steel titan is +15% to your stab slash and crush, assumed to be your armor bonuses. All 3 + the -30% damage spirit shield = 70% damage reduction, +40% to slash defence. Doing that in a tank outfit has GOT to be fun, I'm going to test it someday at 99 summoning in fight pits. Sounds like a blast, you would be VERY rarely hit, and only getting hit for 30% of the normal damage making ags specs max at 23, with very little chance of landing :shock:

I HAVE A CONVERT!!!!!!!!!! (sorry) Yeah, unless you want to have high slayer for bragging rights, you will get much better XP at a spot like flesh crawlers, especially at your defence level.

^ ^ I know, I was expanding his rant, as I've found the 'rs mod' sentiment even more like that then the 'forum mod'. Although my views are exactly the same for both.

Amen, brother. Actually, 'wannabe mods' is a rather stupid phrase - almost every runescape player would want to be a mod, if given the chance, except those 'already mods' who moan and complain about how much trouble that crown gives them. I certainly would; I can name countless times where muting some person for a couple of days would be indescribably handy. And yes, although some people take it overboard, maintaining a semblance of order doesn't make you a moron.

Was your death caused by lack of paying attention or conectivity problems. I highly doubt it was the fact you were slaying. Both of those would save you at Zombies - the prayer drain rate means that, at 84 prayer, you can pray no attention for almost 3 minutes straight with no danger. If you put it in the corner of your screen and watch your points every now and then, DCing is no problem - even at your lowest before you pot again, you've got 2 full minutes before your prayer runs out, and you will log out after 60 seconds. Even if you do die, your grave is ~60 seconds away from the telespot, and you won't be losing a whole lot : Camping at the same thing can get even more boring then long tasks tbh. True; that's why I camp when I'm not 'playing' runescape, then do stuff I find more enjoyable then PVM while I'm 'playing'.

You bring up good points, but those 5 points you used really are al invalidated - you can do all of those BETTER, collectively, when your not training slayer, by using separate methods that total less time then they would take with slayer. It does have variety, though. When I get 99 in every skill but slayer, I will either #A: have quit long ago #B: Begin doing things I enjoy, like minigames, until the game bores me and I quit #C: Earn huge piles of cash until the game bores me and I quit

How does not mentioning whether I potted or not affect how often Prayer drains? I potted as often as I do at Dust Devils or aynwhere, 1 dose every 10 mins. I would almost think it was obvious I was potting. How else did I get to 98k per hour? What do you mean double my Prayer drain rate? The rate was lowered, not increased. The first time I tested with piety and protect from melee it was using up 19 potions per hour, now it is 14.5. Either way that is a loss of over 110k per hour. You purposely understated the loss at Zombie Monkies by about 275%. Umm... a little unfinished here? :lol: :oops: The rate was actually slightly higher. I tested it at Mutated Bloodvelds when I was trying to determine the effect of Range Level on the cannon. I did 3 tests, one at 0 range, one at base stats (89 at the time), and one potted (kept potting each time it dropped, so I stayed at 101). I got 25,235 Range experience at base stats. When I was potted I got 25,424 Range experience (so in other words, Range pots aren't worth taking during tasks where you use a cannon). At 0 Range I got 7,773 Range experience. Keep in mind I never said that was per hour, but per 1k cannonballs. Halving the max hit and making the allowances you did was actually more inaccurate. There is also the matter of the monsters Defence, so the rate could be lower or even higher. So no your results weren't necessarily dead on accurate and scientific. While I was doing the test, I wasn't attacking the Bloodvelds with anything either. It did actually kill alot of Bloodvelds, approximately 68. So yes, there was "ko hits" involved. Except you were testing on much higher HP monsters, where KO hits were not as often. How can you say they have no effect? The average hit, when hit, is 1/2 the max; a KO hit is 1/2 that. I also forgot to include the 2 shot ko, where one cannonball kos the monster and the next one, double fired, does nothing; but that would be about 1/10th of the KO opportunities, and thus reduce the average hit by only .06; not necessary for calculations. What you get from other methods of training is irrelvant, i've already stated this and shown why. You are not losing out on Range experience because you are using a cannon. The cannon is giving extra Range experience while you get melee experience (if that makes sense). Like I showed with Aberrant Spectres, I proved that if you value Range experience at 0, you have to make 421k or more for the cannon to be worth using. If you do make more, and use the cannon, that is more efficient than if you don't. How do you not understand that? No, you haven't. I'm using the 5 minute loss of time from using a cannon, not an entire hour. You have completely misunderstood ALL of my equations. Please do not respond to them again until you realize that. I'm saying that a cannon takes 5 minutes of time per hour, and boost your expereince by a certain rate while increasing your cost. That is accurate. Your statements are wildly inaccurate and indicate that you have no clue what I'm saying. You say you got Range to cost 3.67gp each. You worked that out because with chinchompas gets 240k Range experience per hour at a loss of 480k per hour. That means it cost 2gp each. At Aviansies you will make 400k profit and only get about 50k(?) experience. It takes 12.5 minutes to gain 50k Range experience and costs 100k with chinchompas. You now need to make up 500k in the remaining time. Therefore chinchompas are only more efficient if you can make over 631.6k per hour. You keep saying to use 400k as what you can make per hour, therefore you can't compare them to chinchompas, because it is less efficient. Avansies are 400k profit and 40k XP, as I have stated several dozen times. This would take 8 minutes and 66k to attain with chinchompas, leaving you with 466k earn back - which puts us in a never ending cycle, as we are using our range training XP comparison as our best money earning - we can never achieve the money as a standardized variable with chins\avansies, as avansies ARE our best money maker, making comparison impossible. The real earning rate would be closer to 530k, then, but we can't compare them. I'd redo the numbers for cannon, but you are apparently missing that I'm balancing the cannons cost vs. the cost of the best range training method, with time included, so anything improving our range efficiency would have a detrimental effect on the cannon's cost. Unfortunately, the two methods cannot be compared; our range earning method also happens to be our money making method. It's comparing apples to half apples and half oranges - you will never have the same number of apples as long as there is even 1 orange, if the totals are the same. I explain as I go, makes it easier to understand. There is no difference between single and multi. Either way you are still going to spend the same amount of time tending to the cannon. It is still going to be shooting in addition to how you are killing. It doesn't matter if it can only shoot one monster at once compared to five. An example of this is Fire Giants. I kill them in the Waterfall dungeon and I use a cannon there. It is single combat, but you'd be amazed at how fast the experience is. You don't need to Range while using the cannon in single. If I did the numbers with JUST using a cannon, the numbers would be against the cannon, impossibly. The cannon is only dealing 11.9k damage per hour, at 1k cannonballs per hour averaging 23.8k XP per 1k cannonballs. Melee, at 55k per hour, is 13.75k damage per hour - MORE then the cannon, at far cheaper. I think for a lot of time before I respond to each section, not each post. So don't try to insult me about that. You have misinterpretted what I am trying to get across. "Experience rates and profit are two TOTALLY differnet things".... you neglected to see I wasn't talking about experience rates or profit. I was talking about the value of experience. That isn't profit or an experience rate. You worked out Range experience by Chinchompas to be 3.67gp per experience. That is the cost, not the value. The value is higher than that. Answer this, would you spend 47,836,362 to go instantly from 1-99 Range. You cannot even answer yes to that. That was using 3.67*13,034,431. That is how much you would spend by using chinchompas. Therefore you can't spend the same amount of money to do it instantly as time is money. So it comes down to simply. On top of that 47.8m, how much extra would you pay for it to be done instantly? Do you understand what I am talking about now? It is like buying experience, how much are you willing to pay for it? Exactly why I'm factoring in the money from time lost, using avansies - a point which you seem to be missing. Thanks for bringing it up, I guess... Has your light bulb turned on now? I'm ignoring this, I'll try to avoid the flame war that (I) started. :wall: Simply, can't be done. You can't eliminate training alongside a cannon as a variable. The cannon is an addition, it is merely there to make things go faster, not your primary way to train. It speeds up the tasks enough that in the extra time, if you make enough money, it is worth using. That is what I showed with the Aberrant Spectres. I understood what you were doing in most sections, but there was some which made no sense to me. 23.8 range XP for 227.7 GP, making for: 227.7/23.8 = 9.57 GP\Range XP, vs. 3.67 GP for Range XP with Avansies, loss of 5.9 GP per XP. I understand this part. When compared to training at chinchompas you are spending an extra 5.9gp/xp. Good The 5.9 GP\XP cost is going towards slayer, earning us half the range XP, or 11.8 GP\slayer XP. The next line I don't. The difference in cost doesn't go to Slayer. Simply because you get more range experience for what you pay at chinchompas, doesn't mean the cost of using a cannon increases. I've said this so many times. Other training methods are irrelevant here. The main problem is you are looking at this from the perspective of Range experience. It is about the increase in Slayer experience. Other training methods ARE relevant - I'm factoring out the range XP, the cost thereof, and the 5 minutes required for a cannon, so we have nothing but the cost for slayer XP; exactly what you wanted. With these numbers compared to what I showed with Aberrant Spectres, only one can be correct. Now I personally know I made no mistakes, and that for them 421k is the point at which a cannon becomes worth it. By all means, if you can't make 421k per hour, don't use a cannon. If you can make over that, you'd be foolish not to use it.Explain how your 'methodical testing' outdoes accurate mathmatics; precise, unlike short real world tests. If there were numers that were in question, then yes, real world testing would have more value, but these are hard facts - it's saying the max hit of whip is 22, half of 44 (random guess at max), then you saying that the average hit is 38 because you hit 10 times and got that; if you can show me hit spreads proving the cannon gets more then 23.9k XP per hour, then you have an argument. Until then, your trying to argue against the max and average hits of the cannon. Actually, what you have been arguing is that Slayer sucks. Just because it is doesn't get as much melee experience per hour, doesn't mean it is worse. Counting every bit of experience gained, Slayer gets either barley less, equal or more than the overall experience at Zombie Monkies. I'll break it down for you: Slayer experience = X Zombie Monkies overall experience per hour = 143.3k Therefore the overall experience from Slayer is X + 4X + 1.3X + 0.9X = 7.2X Try .7 for summoning; not earthshaking, but it all those little numbers you have up add up quite significantly. Oh, and (110/4) * 1.3 + 110 = 145.73 Slayer experience + melee experience + Hitpoints experience + Summoning experience If the amount you get at Zombie Monkies is the same as at Slayer then: 7.2X = 143,300 X = 19,902 Slayer experience That is without a cannon however. Since I don't know the ratio of melee/Range experience while using a cannon during Slayer I can't factor that in yet. Even without a cannon, here is the interesting part: It's a good thing you didn't, because a cannon would make all of your slayer numbers go down quite dramatically at our earning rates. Even at a pitiful 12.5k Slayer experience per hour, overall you would get about 90,000 experience. Zombie Monkies would get that much experience in 37.7 minutes. At Zombie Monkies you lose 110k per hour, with Slayer you can make up to 150k per hour, however i'll simply bring it down to 50k to prove a point. You have 22.3 minutes to make up the money lost at Zombie Monkies. That is the equivalent of 430.2k. Since you use 400k per hour as what the average person can make.... Slayer is more efficient. Ta-da, complete proof. Keep in mind that it is easily possible to make well over that amount per hour (at Greaters you got 15,660 Slayer experience, and they are about the slowest task that the average Slayer will do). At 15,660 Slayer experience per hour, you would need to make on average over 750.6k per hour. Have I shown it is more efficient yet? Himm, I just calculated the prayer drain rates - you are indeed correct, at 94.5k in prayer pots per hour. Now on to the rest of that. Zombies, at a cost of 110k, earn 110k XP per hour (scary). Slayer gets approx. 14.9k XP\hour by Qeltar's numbers with straight 99s - my 95\98 is actually getting less then him so far on my greator demons., with a total of 104k XP per hour at a profit of 50k. Zombies are 144k XP at a loss of 110k Avansies are 53.3k XP (including HP) at a profit of 400k For even numbers, we'll use 5 hours of both methods. 5 hours of slayer = 520k XP + 250k profit 3.43 hours of Zombies + 1.57 hours of Avansies = 577.6 XP + 250.7k profit GF, slayer. That's the 'best case' scenario for slayer - using a low profit earning method, and including slayer XP. Let's try calculations with your choice method, 1m an hour at 91 runecrafting. Since, as you said, it's impossible to put a price on your RC XP, we won't include that, but will still include slayer. No worries, I'll be redoing them again without slayer, as the point of this thread deals with combat XP :) 5 hours of slayer = 520k XP + 250k profit 4.28 hours of Zombies + .72 hours of Nat Crafting = 616.3k XP + 249.3k profit Not too much worse for slayer; the lack of XP from nat crafting almost made up for the increased profit. Of course, if you count RC XP as valuble as Slayer, and take BOTH of them out of the equation, it makes our numbers change quite a bit: 5 hours of slayer = 445.7 XP + 250k profit 4.28 hours of Zombies + .72 hours of Nat Crafting = 616.3k XP + 249.3k profit 616.3k - 445.7k = 170.6k XP 170.6k / 5 = 34.12k XP per hour lost by training slayer Need I say more? I'm not finding anything hard to grasp. Have you actually tested with and without piety? How can you know for certain how fast the task becomes? Need to do a test. I don't see why you think I am missing something. Be honest, will the "average slayer" even do a task of these? Or will the cancel/block it? If anything, the average slayer that does do this task will probably find piety worth using. What I'm finding hard to grasp is that you aren't realizing that it's mathematically impossible for piety to boost your kill speed by 38%; even if you consider that it boosts both your frequency of hitting (only possible on monsters where you hit 0% of the time) by 20% (only possible if you consider that your weapon bonus does nothing whatsoever to your accuracy) and your average hit by 23% (impossible for the above reasons), you still only get 43% - and that's for CONTINUSOUS hits. In reality, you will see around 1/4th that; making piety extremely inefficient for every task. I actually showed a few posts ago that 80-99 Slayer was to get to 96 Summoning. If you started from level 1 Slayer, it would be be about either high 97's or low 98's for Summoning. Since 13.8mil Slayer experience gets 13mil Summoning the ratio is 0.94:1. Even dropping it to 0.9:1, 11,000,000 Slayer experience gets 9.9mil Summoning experience, that is level 96 Summoning. So 80-99 Slayer gets 1-96 Summoning. Also note that if what you said was true. Yes the average would drop, but not by alot. It drops to about 354. Not a big difference. According to you, Zarfot's numbers were 1-96 summoning from 1-99 slayer (which you inconstantly flitted around on), a number which Qeltar and my testing (so far) seem to line up with. Getting more experience at Dust Devils because they have lower Defence. Maybe just because as I have been saying that they are simply a better monster to train on. Maybe as I have said before that the equipment I use is actually better than proselyte. I use controlled to train. Only reason I used Accurate here was to record the experience gain easier. I would think that since I mentioned I was 94 94 94 before and now 95 95 95, that it shows I train with controlled. All of that already touched upon; the stats argument is rubbish because I got my numbers (which we are comparing) with 95-98 stats. In short, your doing everything worse then me, with MUCH worse prayers, and getting quite a bit more XP on a monster that you get fewer hits on per hour. Odd, is it not? Final remarks: Now that slayer has conclusively been proven considerably inefficient, even at 100% attention, I'm sure that the arguments will center around the smaller points - piety and prayer - before finally dying out. I would like to say that I do enjoy slayer, and will continue to train it somewhat, but as a general rule I enjoy PVP more then monster hunting, and as such I will continue to get the majority of my XP at zombie monkies, which is not only much more efficient but also requires virtually no attention. I have more money then I will ever spend, with around 1-2m coming in a day from merching, so I never plan on doing any active money making method - making zombies a simple '87k XP at 100% attention vs. 144k XP at 0% attention' argument. I know your arguments from here on out will probably center around the summoning XP (your .9 to my .7) or piety, as I'm afraid you do not understand my cannon calculations. An interesting argument, on the whole, which made my whatpulse score for the past week significantly above average, and made me look at more slayer numbers then I ever wanted to. I will probably be discontinuing my slayer testing program; it was taking up far too much of my time, usually devoted to more enjoyable activities such as tooth pulling and root canal. I might informally do a couple of tasks, but so far my numbers are lining up with each other and Qeltars, and I see nothing more that needs proving. Good debate, it got me training slayer again :) (I got a black mystic top and granite maul from my last two gargoyle tasks - I'm rediscovering the joy of lower value rare drops :thumbsup: )

Alas, the typical hard-core gamer still has some trouble spiraling a football or playing beer pong. Because, of course, these are valuable life skills that will benefit the hard core gamers much more then the fact that their earning a much higher income. Also, the 'hard core gamer' type is 9% more likely to play sports, so that effectively nukes the football argument. They didn't do any studies on drinking skills, so I guess the ex jocks might still have the advantage in that area.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081022-study-squashes-myth-of-gamer-as-antisocial-comic-book-guy.html Interesting article, from a fairly reliable source. A good read, if nothing else.

That happens when the rune window loses focus from switching to a different window; you have to minimize\maximize the window again and click back on rune before your keyboard will work again.

No. At higher levels it is more efficient because higher ranges means that you can hit more frequently, stand alone. Accuracy is what cripples void. So at higher levels, you don't really need the extra benefits of more accuracy, as you would be hitting hard regardless. Sorry Maul, I know it did not really answer your question. :oops: No, I'm saying that because of his lower levels and the fact that he's lacking void, he will be getting 30% less XP. The void itself is only 5-10% more XP, and I would say it's better over all levels - I really haven't noticed much of a decrease in accuracy, and my XP went up quite significantly at 95 range.

15 is not "almost" 19. Yes, bolting would be more profitable than dart, but considering that the vast majority of mage training methods lose money it makes sense to try to maximize the xp rate while still making a profit. And I believe god spells with Charge would be the best for these. I figured that it should be possible to break even, and you would get great xp rates. If that doesn't work the second best option would be fire wave (about the same cost as magic dart and more powerful, with more base xp). 10 + (ROUND(67/10,1)) = 16. 15 is "almost" 16, last I checked. Except that the 16 costs around 3 times what the 15 does. Given that his magic level is 67, I think he might have a hard time casting the 'charge' spell, so he would be spending 6 times as much to hit 1/4th higher. Please don't pick out one post and try and prove it wrong without reading all of the replys for more information that you might have missed, such as that his magic level is 67.

Bolting would be significantly better; almost the same max hit, but almost 1/3rd the cost. And yes, Avansies are great for bolting, but alching is still better overall.

There are qute a few SOS monsters much better for lower level players to train on then banshees (worthless outside of slayer), waterfiends are far more efficient then dust devils, and the chances of a d chain are so small that they do almost nothing to your hourly profit (another monster that's worthless outside of slayer), and abyssal demon is slow XP and bad money (what do you know, another monster that's worthless outside of slayer! Say, I'm sensing a pattern here...) Which leaves you with a valid point - if you enjoy variety in training and find slayer more fun, then by all means train it! No, it's not the worst, I'll give you that point - but it's not the best, either, or indeed, anywhere close to it ;)

Refer to my edit in the previous post. With piety the chance on hitting on Zombies was less than Dust Devils. Just took a look. Besides failing to mention how often you were potting, or indeed if you were potting at all, I find it interesting that the addition of SGS, 99 cape, and Zamorak Book would nearly double your prayer drain rate. Again refer to the edit. Still more experience per hour at Dust Devils and also reasons why. Refer to the previous section. When I tried to make them aggressive the first time I ran back past the ladder you come down in and back. They were still unaggressive. So I ran down the bridge (east? I think, can't remember which way the compass was facing) and through the narrow part of the tunnel. Once there I went back and they were aggressive again. You don't have to do that. Alternating running north and up\down the laddder works great, for an average loss of ~11 seconds (I haven't time the exact amount). It is actually 22% : . I also explained reasons why I was getting less. Lower stats is an obvious factor. I was using a Saradomin Godsword compared to his Saradomin Sword which would have been faster. I don't know how much of an effect it would have, but I kill on clsoe side he uses the far side. I didn't notice your I don't see where you getting this from. No-one knows how the system actually calulates how often you hit, so therefore how could you say that is how it works? You can't. However according to you, since the 15% only comes into affect when you would have missed (7.5% of the time), then wouldn't the number still decrease by 15%, not 7.5%? meaning you would now only hit 0's 6.2% of the time. I still don't think that is how it works though since your Attack level is always in effect. I was looking at the number of the cannon. All of those percentages don't need to be done. Reason why? 1k cannonballs on average will get you 25k Range experience and hence 12.5k Slayer experience. Meaning on average you hit 12.5, but that is already inclusive of how often you miss. Perhaps you could explain exactly where you got this staggeringly accurate 25k range XP? Unless you show me hit spreads for cannonballs (and I've made hit spread graphs of other weapons; they all are realitivily flat). Throwing out a random number that some fool jprobably calculated by halving the max hit, making no allowances for the things I did, makes no sense whatsoever, as does saying that the hits would be concentrated towards the higher side. Those calculations are almost dead on accurate and scientific; perhaps you failed to make allowance for the 'ko hits' that result in less XP then the average cannonball, which I did, based on the average HP of cannonable tasks, taken from Qeltar's guide. This isn't necessarily true. People value experience differently. Not every uses chinchompas to train either. From what I see here you say it costs 480k to train for 1 hour with chinchompas, then you went for 1 hour at Aviansies where you made 400k. You didn;t facor in the Range experience from Aviansies themselves and after those 2 hours would the cost not be 80k? Unless you are specifically stating that because you didn't use Aviansies that you lose out on that 400k you could have made? That is the only way your numbers make sense to me. Sir, do you have any idea whatsoever about what I'm doing here? Factoring in the avansies XP would make a difference, but it would only further push down the cannon's numbers due to faster range XP from chinchompas. Chinchompas are the most efficient range XP; therefore they are used for comparison. I'm sorry, but your really coming across as kind of dumb without being able to see that a cannon's efficiency is directly tied to the most efficient methods of training range. Nothing personal, but you really need to look more closely at my equations. I even spelled everything out, in hopes that you'd get it :| It takes about 2 minutes over the course of 1k cannonballs in time used to load and set up the cannon. However, there is one important factor you are missing. That is the time taken. Yes you did calculate that into the cost of the cannonball, but that isn't what I meant. According to you 1k cannonballs takes 5 mins of your time. Is it then not fair to say that for every second you spend on maintaining the cannon you are getting 83.3 Range experience per second? In other words you are getting the equivalent of 300k Range experience per hour. Sir - see above statement. Your just not getting it. THAT'S WHAT I'M DOING! Forgive me for being frustrated, but how can I pound that into your thick skull? Those particular figures are for a single combat area, not multi! In a single combat area, you are being forced to range at reduced XP rate. Look at my numbers for multi; those are the ones you want! You have also confused what I meant by the value of experience. I could make about 1million per hour while Runecrafting, does that mean the I value experience as being about 37gp profit each? No it doesn't. Put simply, you will make about 1mil in an hour and also gain 27k experience. If you were already 99, extra experience doesn't change anything, so why get it? Because it has a value. How much do you value that extra experience at? Personally I don't know what I value mine at, but for Runecrafting, I would estimate about 15-20gp per experience. The value of experience isn't what it costs to attain. It cannot be measured by using maths. Ughh, would you mind reading my posts and thinking about what I'm saying? Perhaps you could assign a '5 minute thinking time' after you read each post, so that the light bulb would turn on and I wouldn't have to explain things to you. I know, I'm reverting to insults, but it's kind of annoying - think before you post!. Experience rates and profit are two TOTALLY differnet things - I'm using the 400k from avansies as a profit rate, and I'm using chinchompas as an XP rate for Range XP! The Profit vs. XP are two totally separated things! I have found a vital flaw in this calculation. Which also then shows that 99 Slayer doesn't cost 153.8m. If everything you have done up till here is correct then let me just change one thing here. Since it apparently costs 11.8gp per Slayer experience with a cannon (as you say), you then say Slayer costs 153.8M. See your mistake yet? You calculated what it would cost using only a cannon to obtain the Slayer experience. Note that while doing Slayer you using the cannon in conjunction with melee or range (nearly all cases it is melee). 13,034,431 Slayer experience will get 52,137,724 combat experience. Since it will also max out Attack Strength and Defence that leaves 3,258,607 Slayer experience for the cannon. While yes that is only 6.5mil Range experience, the average player already has higher stats by the time they start training Slayer. They will end up maxing out all the skills via 99 Slayer. So at your value of 11.8, that means the cost of Slayer with a cannon is 38,451,571gp. That means by using a cannon, you will lose that much money. However, you need to take into account how much faster you will gain Slayer experience. In the end, it will be more efficient to sue a cannon, than to not. -.- I'm calculating the cost of training slayer using only a cannon to compare it to the cost of training it without; separating and eliminating all variables to see if a cannon is worth it. You completely misread and failed to understand every single part of my cannon calculations :| This is nearly an exact copy/paste of the part above. Actually, it's an exact copy/paste of the part above, only changed with my numbers for a single combat zone. Thanks for pointing this out, I guess... I don't see how it would do that with a higher rate. As afterall, training via Slayer does give on average more overall experience per hour, and if not, it is only just less. Besides, you were correct, I would have said your numbers were invalid with 1m an hour at GWD. Not for the reasons you think though. GWD isn't a guaranteed money maker, you can't guarantee that you will average that (although I think my average is extremely high for soloing Zilyana, but we won't go there : ). No, it doesn't, even if we count slayer XP, but without it (because we're debating if slayer is a good way to train combat), it's significantly worse. How does it increase your attack by 10%? Piety gives 20% bonus. It boosts max hit by about 6 for me (from 45 to 51) with the 23% increase to Strength level. Also note that the Defence of piety also comes into play here. I will get hit less, therefore eat less (so less time wasted due to delays), on the same amount of food i'll last long making it more likely to finish the task in one trip. Taking a bank trip during the task makes you lose out on 1-2k Salyer experience. I also never said it would come down to 400k, but that it would be lower than 761k. The statement about the 120 isn't entirely worthless. I also said I only managed to kill4 in his 1 only one time. On average it was less, I was still killing 2 for his 1. Again it provides no real data to work on, it does show piety causes a significant difference. 1/2 your frequency of hitting comes from your attack level; the other half from your equipment bonus (roughly); same case for strength. The amount it boosts your max hit by doesn't matter; you can't see the rounding behind the scenes, so in the end it's only the percentages that matter. Because our earning point is 400k, it does matter - if it's above 400k, it'll make slayer worse XP; if it's below, it will make it better. Piety isn't going to speed up your tasks by 38%, so it's not worth using. What about that do you find so hard to grasp? Are you intentionally pretending not to see it, or are you just that blind? When did I say 343? I did state 96 Summoning and I also said that it averages to be just over 350 per crimson (I really don't like when people say I said things when I didn't). Even though the difference is small, you keep changing what I say and adding things which I never said. I have mentioned so many times that 99 Slayer wouldn't get you to 96 Summoning, so how could that have been your point? I mentioned that in the first place and already stated that. What you say next makes no sense... sure people may more than likely change to a faster way to get charms. "Never reach as high of a summoning level with slayer charms" means what not? What do you mean that the XP per charm would be lower due or lower level'd pouches. How fast you obtain the charms or how efficient it is, is irrelevant. You will still average the same amount of experience per charm regardless of how it is obtained. Again, good job on missing the point of my post. You have stated, quite a few times, that 99 slayer = 96 summoning; pray tell what is your magic figure now? Now, for a visual aid to represent the point of my post. If you go from 1-99 slayer, you will, according to you, get 96 summoning - a .74 summoning xp to 1 slayer XP. Now, assuming you start at 80 slayer and 1 summoning, you will only reach 94 summoning - meaning that the XP from all your pouches will be shifted down somewhat, as you will be using fewer high level pouches. Does that help? I mentioned earlier about the edit which you missed, I'll add it here just to be sure you see it: See above. I'm also curious - if your only hitting 3% less accurately at monkies, BUT using piety (+12% to max hit), AND having better stats, why are you getting 7% more XP at dust devils? Oh, and if your hitting more then 66% of the time, your best off using controlled. All in all, that post was rather insulting and full of name calling, please disregard it - I'm getting slightly frustrated with how many rounds of posting it takes to explain something :wall:

'scuse me for asking, but what's with the aversion to quests? Your really limited without them - I guess you could kill bandits for melee\range, and alch stuff for mage? :|

Wow that was very helpful indeed : , if you don't mind, how much would that be with red chins? I don't have exact numbers with red chins; the XP should be about 40 higher, though, so you would have to earn several million per hour to make them worthwhile. I won't go through the whole numbers, as I don't have exact numbers for Grey chins, and my calcs could be off quite a bit. Suffice to say that it probably isn't worth it for you, especially at your level. Keep in mind that, although I'm not trying to tell you where to chin, Ape Atoll Skeles really are the way to go; the small amount of drops you might get from zombies or mummies really doesn't outweigh the extra cost and time.