fenrir321

Any two of the points of the triangle would out-class any single point (obviously) but if I had to pick a single point and stick with it until the end of combat, it would have to be ranged becaus ethe damage output rivals that of a warrior while also being able to shoot from afar and having medium armor. But aside from that, if the classes were like WoW, it still be a hunter because of leet pvp kiting is the best way to go 8-) That or OMGHAXORWTBD4M4G3 rogue with invisibility.

For the WoW inclined RS player: Godsword- high burst damage Whip- sustainable dps Whip is good enough dps for pking, but burst damage > sustainable dps UNLESS you can kite targets, which is "possible*" only with ice blitz or barrage in runescape. Therefore, in runescape, burst damage > sustainable dps in pvp in ALL cases. Burst damage has a major flaw in that when averaging out in total damage over time, it will be lower than the best sustainable dps. For example: (not real numbers) The godsword max hit is 92 and the whip max hit on a player I believe is ~55 Now, the average damage per minute of the godsword is ~500 and the whip's is ~650. You would pick the godsword in pvp because you just need to hit a 92 twice to win the single duel. You would pick the whip in pve because it does more dpm and gets you more kills and therefore more loot. If you're fighting a bunch of zombified lvl 90s in the generic torags, veracs or dharoks (in order of frequency) compared to your lvl 138 character, it would actually be better in this pvp situation to use a whip since they just rush you like noobs on Halo 3 \ . *Ice barrage is not technically a kiting spell because it holds and not adjusts movement speed. If it drained run energy, then it would be the only, true form of kiting in runescape (without the use of mud pies).

d claws if you're a high level player. If you don't ko the target in two specs at that point, you really should fight someone more of your size.

According to my economics teacher, the only way to make wealth is to take a raw material of any kind (not just material) and turn it into goods that are more valuable; essentially turning time and energy into money. Obviously, is backwards on runescape. If you buy 5 rune bars and sell the newly made, crisp rune plate body, you end up losing about 20k. The only reason that bow strings and yew/maple logs are less expensive than the end product is because of the high alching spell that requires nature runes and bumps up the cost to a negative profit. And if you do try to sell the finished product, it ends up becoming fodder (junk). I have been too lazy to ask my economics teacher about advice for the problem. Therefore, in the meantime, I ask you all \ As for my view, I think that there needs to be either a slow down of production to match the drainage of the supply or leave the production alone and increase the loss of these items and REMOVING them completely from the game (not just transfering from player to player). In other words, a revamp of pvp worlds so that is an actual incentive to be in them and a high risk to balance it. For example: double experience in all skills while risking at least 6 non stackable items that are more than 25/75k in a normal dangerous and triple experience in a hot zone. Just a suggestion.

Therefore, fewer updates are bad. Yet you are saying that fewer updates are not bad. Do you enjoy updates or not? If you enjoy them, lesser enjoyment due to fewer updates is a "bad" thing; if you don't enjoy them, greater enjoyment due to fewer updates is a "good" thing. It's really quite simple; I don't see why your not seeing what I'm trying to say. I think he's saying he wishes that Jagex would operate like the makers of EVE Online; they make HUGE patches but update only about once every two three months. edit: also, comp, I notice you have a habit of linking sources on several arguments/debates. Not that it's a bad thing, but where the hell do you pull them all from?! :shock: Granted the wiki articles are obvious but things like the profit graphs surely aren't google-able and easy to read for the mass public of the internet? (Or perhaps my history teacher was right and I'm excessively naive :wall: )

As a third party observer, I'm just stating the gist of the original quotes: You're assuming that Jagex doesn't know what they're doing, which implies that you do. Compfreak is suggesting that Jagex does know what they are doing and implies they more know than you do; nothing to do with his own intelligence. so, just take a deep breath and think about the implications and not just the actual words in a post (e.g. "I hate" and "I strongly dislike" are the same thing on paper but give different feelings when being read.) And just in my opinion, whatever age group/background of any player, I hope that a team of over 400 professionally trained adults knows more than any single person, minor or not.

true, good point

What a complete fallacy. Run behind a tree with range prayer on, old time PKers were at least a bit of a challenge, not 'head for the nearest tree' type of annoyance. I'd agree with you except at some point, the low level doesn't have 40 prayer and can't do that. It's kind of like a negative exponential growth; as the levels increase, revenants of relative levels become easier to beat at a steady pace until the drop off where the player has range and melee prayer and then the difficulty just plummets. But then the obvious rebuttal would be why would such a low level player be in the wild? Which is exactly what I ask myself sometimes.*facepalms at lvl 60 player with full dragon and an iron dagger and asks "why?"* But the low level would have the same problem if it were a pker. On paper, yes, true. But with revenants, the lower levels ones are much more powerful than their player counterparts. When was the last time an imp (lvl 7 or 11 can't remember which) could hit 8s (clarify), freeze AND teleblock? Never.

most people that can kill a green dragon are at least lvl 60 if they are ranging. Dark knight's castle is worse than the black knight castle west of edge or the black knight's sector in talvery dungeon Exploring a field where there's desolate places and monster ready to kill you sounds like a job for the "bank you items" police. The mage arena requires 60 magic, so fairly high. And anyone willing to be a pure to get 60 magic would be getting ancients, which are not in the wild. To get ghostly robes you need a high thieving level or a LOT of hitpoints to pick the lock in DT. I'm pretty sure that a player who would delegate all of that time towards combat would be very indignant about "wasting" time leveling up thieving. Coupled with the fact that the actual "pures" and not "builds" (e.g. obby maul, zerker) have a very low prayer, they really should not be well equipped and fighting in the wild because of that. And if you're talking about actual low levels who are balanced but still fall below lvl 40 or so, then they STILL shouldn't be out in the wild because no prayer anyway. Basically, anyone who has below 40 prayer should stay out of the wilderness. If they want to enter, no one will stop them except their better judgment.

meh, sara pages are useless tbh. If you're using prayer for protection, then defense doesn't matter; if you're using it for offensive prayers, then you'll be plugging all of the stats into attack and/or strength. The only reason you'd want a saradomin page is for aesthetic reasons- or a fancy word for useless. But on a less caustic, sarcastic note, that's just how the cookie crumbles (does anyone actually use that anymore? :? ) sometimes. I remember when I was logged in during the w111 bug (but not in that world, thank God). I remember when the blackout of the servers caused everyone's inventories to vanish (At least according to my friend.) Point is, stuff happens, good and bad. The best thing really is to just try again while also submitting a bug report to Jagex so this (hopefully) doesn't happen to someone else. (If it makes you feel better, I was devaluing the reward to make it seem not much as opposed to a saradomin sword, not to make you look like an idiot for ranting about it : ) What a complete fallacy. Run behind a tree with range prayer on, old time PKers were at least a bit of a challenge, not 'head for the nearest tree' type of annoyance. I'd agree with you except at some point, the low level doesn't have 40 prayer and can't do that. It's kind of like a negative exponential growth; as the levels increase, revenants of relative levels become easier to beat at a steady pace until the drop off where the player has range and melee prayer and then the difficulty just plummets. But then the obvious rebuttal would be why would such a low level player be in the wild? Which is exactly what I ask myself sometimes.*facepalms at lvl 60 player with full dragon and an iron dagger and asks "why?"*

Hihi, since you are so indignant about how "fun" something is, then define it. I find it fun to earn lots of cash and work my butt off and enjoy the fruits of my labor by freezing people to death. I also find it fun to pm friends and clan mates about up coming wars and etc. Notice I didn't add "I really like to lose items" in that list. Your argument of "it was fun the first time and therefore fun the second time" is based off the mentality that there is nothing left to do in runescape (which usually isn't the case). When you complete a game, you may want to replay it for a better experience in the storyline or kick a boss's [wagon] quicker (like time attack on shadow of the colossus :)). But aside from that, if there is an actual advantage to playing the completed game, then who would want to start over? If you think losing items is still fun, then kill your account (get it perm banned) and start over. Oh, and you can't just write down your friends' names; you have ot make NEW friends. Runescape items and currency have value because of three things (at least within the confines of my pre-economics course mind): 1. time spent making/earning the items 2. the need/demand of the items 3. the items 1. can be exchanged for and their respective values (for examaple: 3a armor is fairly invaluable because of the junk that's required to trade for it in addition to cash; while ironically, maple longs are very valuable since the junk is very flexible and trade for many more things) Essentially, here is how it breaks down: runescape and its items are not valueless but they are also not equal or as valuable as real-world items/cash (which is why several million gp were sold for fairly cheap prices on goldfarmers' sites) But is there really any reason to go on? As far as I've read, the replies are either by people who have ignored the logic and keep dwelling in their bubble on how everything that they can't touch does not matter, or they are by the people who have accepted the logic and have futiley (sp?) taken on the task of hammering it into the formers' brains. All this will eventually add up to is a flame war at this rate, at least from what I've read.

Wow, this is almost as split as Platonic and Aristotelian philosophy :shock: "What is real"....that question has been going on for several centuries. "Runescape is not real because if it is, you're a nerd" is false because it directs the attack at the speaker, false by default. "Runescape is not real because it is just a video game" could be just a "Runescape is because it is" statement which isn't arguable at all. So really, "Runescape is real because it exist in and spends real time to advance in inside of its space" is pretty much the only logical assertion. And yeah, "Just pixels" = "Just paper money" Probably the reason of "runescape is not real" is because when we die in runescape we respawn. Of course that gets into a whole other argument in discussing where we go when we die in this world. Since we don't know for certain the latter, we can't compare the former and therefore, "Runescape is not real because we respawn" is invalid as well.

What does it matter if Jagex gave out a bunch of carrots/rubber chickens? I mean really, all the rewards are for is fun, not status symbols. Of course, the have unfortunately evolved into such. Just look on the bright side, at least they're carrots and not chickens.

k, thanks for the info compfreak. I'll tuck that away when I need to fight a boss or when I'm pking. :

I don't have the resources to just spend a mill or two of gp on pure testing, so I'll just take your word for it. :-# But since you do, does that mean that bronze bolts hit more often than rune bolts or the other way around?

How so? There's ALWAYS going to be one specifically 'best' weapon. That's how it is by definition. Any attempt to re balance things simply leads to a new clear champion. Not unless you make each type of weapon unique enough through extra bonuses and specials. I think thats the main issue with the weapons and combat. There is only a few weapons that people use because those are FAR superior to the rest. They need to make the different weapons more unique from each other to really offer a healthy about of choice and differences in the combat, IMO. If poison were f2p and more variety of armor vulnerabilities, this is how it would pan out: Scimitar- best slash damage dagger - poison, 'nuff said Short sword - stronger version of the dagger for stabbing weaknesses, best stab damage Longsword- comporable slash and stab for saving inventory space (jack of trades for stab/slash attacks) Warhammer - Strong crush attack for crush weaknesses, best crush damage Battle axe - jack of trades for crush/slash weaknesses (similar role to longsword) Mace - jack of trades for crush/stab weakness Two hand sword - ko hit or for full-out offensive for people with high enough defense That seems unique enough to me. And that's not counting spears, hastae, and claws. That is how it would pan out in full out wars when people are not all damage dealers and some would be snipers, anti-snipers, and poisoners. Of course, it's about as realistic and attainable as Plato's Republic.

I disagree with this comment. There can only be one best item for each item type. But not for an entire style of combat. This is a good point being brought up by the OP and should be addressed by Jagex. the weapon balancing is quite off. Same goes with melee. People only use scimitars, 2h's or whips. Axes, maces etc. really have no point. There is definitely the potential for making each weapon type unique from the other. It would introduce new ways of combat. You're half right. In f2p the scimitar is the 'best' weapon. However, depending on the circumstances and the player's levels, the 'best' weapon can change. In wars when people need melee sniping, warhammers are the best in melee only because of the high crush attack. In wars with multiple attack styles, the battleaxe is the best FOR SNIPING (not damage dealing ;)). It saves space as well as has high strength and high slash attack for anti-rangers. If poisons were f2p, daggers would be a staple. Short sword, maces, and longswords are pretty much useless in f2p. If Jagex changed so that classes were weaker to different melee styles (not just weak against both stab and slash) then maybe a longsword would be feasible. However, all the weapons that I have listed are good FOR SNIPING IN THOSE SITUATIONS. In the long run, a scimitar will ALWAYS beat out those weapons. And people are so obsessed now a days with single digit advantages that everyone would possess weapon A is weapon A was the 'best' in 51% of the battles instead of weapon B which was only good for 49%. Of course, if you were smart, you'd have both weapons \ .

Doesn't matter. Range bonus isn't the whole story. Ammo type plays the biggest role. How does ammo play a role in accuracy if it only gives ranged strength?

Ok, but just for future reference, how would you calculate a damage spread? I was going by average of the max hti since I assume that each damage point has an equal chance of appearing on damage splat. Also, the rune crossbow is +92 ranged attack and the crystal bow is +100 (I was using a second "dud" crystal bow in the calculation to keep the first "recorded" one's max hit at a constant and not degraded factor).

I wasn't aware that that was FTP. New update? (yes, that was sarcasm) Oh duh #-o Didn't realize/read that he was f2p. Honest mistake on my part.

What? Your basing your argument completely off maxes? Have you completely forgotten about hit spreads and accuracy? You can't magically add maxes and come up with DPM, especially when they contradict my actual RW results. And crossbow is 11 GP per shot, but 6k XP less. Crystal bow is 98k per hour more for 6k XP, given that 180k range XP can be obtained per hour for free at chins + avansies, it would require 2,940,000 GP per hour to make crystal bow better. Not only is that rate impossible, chinchompas would be laughably cheap compared to it. Meh I got lazy that calculation. You can neglect accuracy difference with a zamorak prayer book. And even you take the average damage of the crystal bow and broad bolts, their respective adpc comes out to be 75 and 70, respectively. But that purely assumes money is no object but not using red chins (completely contradictory) and there are multiple crystal bows for the bow switcheroo. Basically, it's a completely unrealistic situation. #-o After doing some math, broad bolts are about 100% stronger than bronze opal bolts (something I didn't think of). Basically, that means killing monsters in half the time for ~6x the price or a ratio of 1:3. So, you blew me out of the water on that. Now that I see my error in cost per gp, the whole argument that the crystal bow is better has fallen apart completely and not just partially (as I thought before). Meh, now my dream of owning a crystal bow seems stupid :(

Get ava's accumulator. Problem solved for monsters taking up 2 or more spaces. edit: didn't notice you were f2p; my apologies. Nothing else to say except that which everyone else has: pick up arrows fast.

All of you seem to forget a handy little fact: MSB is MORE expensive then rune crossbow. Also, my damage calculations are putting rune crossbow ahead of MSB in terms of cost, specifically that the 6k XP difference doesn't make up for the cost unless you earn over 1.45m per hour, in which case you should be using chinchompas to train anyway. Let's see the numbers you used, and I'll point out where you messed up. If the numbers you're looking for are the msb + adamant arrows vs rune crossbow + broad bolts/adamant bolts, I have a [hide] damage table over the course of the (hypothetical) time/cycle in the first post. If you're talking about the crystal bow vs rune cbow + broad bolts, here are my calculations for the crystal bow damage output > cbow damage output: 99 range: Crystal bow max = 25 x 6 speed = 150 max damage per cycle Broad bolt max = 28 x 5 speed = 140 max damage per cycle I already agreed with the fact that msb is more expensive in terms of gp/ammo/damage. And I completely forgot about red chins :wall: :wall: which are obviously the best exp/hour. I was saying the crystal bow is best "cheap" way to grind since it can cost 72-360 gp per shot where as red chins cost in the several millions to gain good exp. I'll go change that in the edit. In the first sentence you said the msb is more expensive. But in the second sentence you said the crossbow is ahead in cost. "Ahead" in the meaning of more costly to use (therefore worse), or ahead in the meaning of more advantageous (cheaper)? I just tend to get hung up on words sometimes. But that aside, are you using weaker hitting ammo in the calculations that has better damage per gp (like maybe iron or steel) instead of going all out with adamant or rune?

It doesn't matter how you try to balance it. It either deals less damage per minute then the 'best' weapon, and is never used, or it deals more and is always used in place of the 'best'. There's only room for one at the top\best, by definition. Sorry, I need to be more clea rin what I'm ranting about. You are right; it's either the best damage dealer or it's not. However, that doesn't mean there can't be trade-offs. As I've stated before, the crossbow is the best damage dealer as well as having cheap ammunition. It both outhits the crystal bow and at a cheaper price per shot. Aside from that, there's also the issue of being on a lower tier. Meh, I should probably be comparing the dark bow to the run c'bow or the crystal bow to the rune c'bow since the msb is on a lower level tier and therefore should hit lower. :wall:

I know that, I remember it clearly. My question is "why has Jagex made short bows *almost* completely obsolete?" Why has Jagex made the dragon scimitar 'almost' completely obsolete? There can only be one best weapon, and one must be replaced to make room at the top. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep Good point, but surely there's room for another weapon at the top? Even if the short bow were to be given the same adpc as a crossbow, it's still both two-handed and has ridiculously lower ranged attack. A long time peeve is the crystal bow. If the crystal bow had a higher max hit (35% of the ranged level at fully charged instead of 25%) then I would have no complaints with it comparing it to the rune crossbow. The crystal bow is rarely used even though it's completely 1 itemable. I have a higher adpc with a rune crossbow and broad bolts, broad bolts are a hell of a lot cheaper, and the accuracy of the rune c'bow is only slightly worse up until about 7/10 charges. There's a problem with that when the weapon is lvl 61 and the ammunition is 55 range when the crystal bow is 70 range. edt: thanks for the page, now I have a proper term for the process :D.