Yoko Kurama

Will Catholic Churches around the world refuse to allow entry to Priests who have been involved in the molestation of children?I doubt it, in fact, this has happened in the past when priests who were caught molesting kids were just shipped from one parish to another, escaping the reach of the law. Will Catholic Churches refuse financing from these same people(The Vatican) which have been known to terrorize children? I doubt it. Historically, I am correct again. I guess we better start refusing to allow the construction of any further Catholic churches in communities where kids were molested by priests because that would be an insult to those families, and heck, who knows, maybe Catholic churches everywhere are training grounds for child molesters? Al-Qaeda is ONE organization, and a political one too. To insinuate that because of ONE organization radicalism has somehow spread amongst Muslims everywhere is idiotic. It doesn't represent all Muslims unlike the Catholic Church which represents a large number of Christians. See what I did there? If that argument isn't plausible enough against other religious groups in similar circumstances, then levying it against Muslims doesn't simply make it plausible.

That is interesting. I suppose I will recant some of what I said. Though, I don't think you realize when in your usual habbit of making sarcastic comments, such as 'the drama level in this thread has gone up' during important/serious discussions (I seem to call you making sarcastic comments quite often), how people like me might be lead to believe that you are trolling us. I am not saying we can't have fun but if comes across that way. And by no means am I of the opinion that Jagex always wrong or anything. I have defended them quite often in the past but at times like these I do feel legitimately frustrated. By the way, I did breifly check your site a while back. ;) When it is a string of delays without warning there are legitimate minor complaints. I think DJL summed it up perfectly on another forum: My mistake then, I didn't catch the sarcasm. I don't mind Jagex recognizing sites or getting involved, by all means they should. It is just the manner of how they got involved. Smaller sites have to put up with absurd demands such as removing adverts to competitors(even though Jagex themselves have WoW adverts time from time) which provide substantial revenue without any compensation. Then of course the matter of indirectly control critical comment with the threat of removal of status. Meh, whole thing is a mess. RS wiki is a prime example, though that was hijacked a bit sooner because of the various folks that moderate on RS Wiki AND Runescape(clear conflict of interest).

Ban people who express dissatisfaction towards the product? What a moronic idea. As if apologists couldn't already get any more excessive around here. Expression frustration is hardly trolling, often when said frustrations are justified. You feel embarrassed for Tip.it? I feel embarrassed for Tip.it too--but for different reasons. Ever since Andrew threatened legal action against Tip.it and the subsequent take down of a particular article, this place lost its collective [cabbage] and ever since nothing that Jagex done can be ever examined critically otherwise one must fear the wrath of the apologists. And now we are at a stage where people are advocating others be banned for their opinions. How wonderful? Mind you there are still a lot intelligent and articulate people here but they are often overshadowed by apologists like you. I know you put a spin on your words to insinuate that only the trolls should be banned but inside their there is the implicit assumption that they anytime people have any complaints in regards to delays, we must be trolling, or as you put it engaging in 'sob fests'. It is as if to you, there is never a time when people are with legitimate qualms, it is as if people are just always sobbing. The whole Platinum status is another thing to worry about, people anticipated that once they unleashed something of this sort, there would be conflicts of interests where people like you would be more interested in getting some silly little control mechanism, er I mean status instead of actual discussion. "Lets not talk about certain things like complains because Jagex might not give us the next status or revoke our current one, we can't have that now can we?".

I was only explaining where the expectation arises from, and why is a reasonable one to be held. If Jagex had announced last week or Sunday or Monday that "Hey, we are going to be running bit late, we are going to try our best to get it done as soon as possible but it is likely it won't be done until later this week. Sorry folks.", it would have been the end of this story. My expectations aren't fixed, like I said a little bit of clarity is all that is asked for.

Again Jagex have always said no set update days. So its the players themselves creating expectations not Jagex. Whether or not the expectation is player-generated or Jagex-generated doesn't matter, because either way the expectation is still there and Jagex must deal with it Not really. You can't blame the company for following their policy of no set update day just because players create their own expectations. That'd be like trying to sue a supermarket because you tried to eat a chicken (bought there) without cooking it. Sure they sold you the raw chicken, but they didn't say you can eat this chicken as is so its not their fault you did so. With Rs Sure Jagex have told us there will be an update this week, but they haven't told us a day or time so it isn't their fault or problem if you create you own expectation of when it will be Has Jagex announced a specific update day? Nope. However when someone does something the same for years(as Jagex have), they set a precedent. How many times have we had updates on Wednesdays?Thurdays? Fridays? Saturdays?Sundays? Maybe a handful combined. That isn't just a question. It would be one thing if Jagex released updates on random days of the week. But they don't. They have historically done it this way for a long time. .When Jagex says 'we are releasing an update next or two weeks from now', the first accompanying thought that probably comes to people's mind is Monday or Tuesday. Why? Because they have always done it this way. Heck, if we were to have placed a bet this previous Sunday on when the update would be released, had anyone placed a bet on any day but Tuesday or Monday, they would have been ridiculed. Monday/Tuesdays aren't the de jure(by law or officially) day of updates but they are the de facto(by observation/fact) day of updates. So you can understand where the expectation that Jagex update on Mondays or Tuesdays might arise from.

How is not Jagex's fault for hyping up updates through various means only to people at the last possible moment after they have waited that, "Sorry, not today folks". Seems to me like they are real saddos because how hard could a message a couple ago be? And if you actually read, people did not refresh the page all day. In Northern America, it is NOT 3 PM like it is in the UK, well in some parts anyways. It is usually early morning when the updates come. So people staying up a bit, and checking at this time is completely sensible, it isn't a lack of a common sense. As usual, Jagex apologists appear, apologizing for a [cabbage] business model of procrastination. This isn't about kids moaning or (though some probably did). This is about honesty and consistency. If you need more time, be honest, don't [bleep]ing hype it up, pretend everything is going find and then around the last hour or so, come and tell us that it isn't ready--tell us before. The drama level in this thread just shot through the roof. As have the efforts of Tip.it's favorite Jagex Apologists in trolling important discussions with idiocy.

I used the term in a figurative manner, not literally the last second or minute. So if an update is announced this month, and even the week before Jagex has a *significant* portion of it undone, I consider that to be working till the last minute so to speak, working week by week instead of ahead which is a horrible model and is of course going to increase the likelihood of missing deadlines. Here is what I think they should do. Scrap the BTS entirely for September, and take the whole month if need be, work on just maintenance and future updates. No need to release any new content. After they are *done* they can put up a BTS for November, and by the time November comes the updates should be ready. If something unfortunate happens then, that is understandable. At least that way they are ahead of schedule. That way ideally in the current month they would be working on programming next month's updates instead of next weeks. So I am all for them taking extra time, I just want some honesty. Ideally these kind of situations shouldn't even be showing up if they didn't work on a week by week basis because they would ideally be done updates or be close to being done them instead of constantly reworking them on the day of...So yeah, it isn't the end of the world but I am disappointed and I do think Jagex should change their business model.

How about you actually ready what I said instead of impatiently replying instead? I said I am *perfectly* fine with them taking extra time for updates, I like a soundly tested update just as much as anyone else. All I said was they should be more honest, and adapt a business model of getting things done before time rather than on time. For instance, they took off BTS for how long? When they decided to put it back on, they should have waited a month, completed the updates for the next month and THEN brought back BTS. That way, all they would have to do is do last minute testing and the month would be ready. What would this accomplish? Basically they would be 1 month ahead of schedule and updates would be more likely complete on time. It is kind of like in school. Some kids worked on their projects as soon as they got them while others put it off for the night before. Who is more likely to get it done? That is what Jagex appears to be doing, working on things at the last minute instead of ahead of time.

How is not Jagex's fault for hyping up updates through various means only to people at the last possible moment after they have waited that, "Sorry, not today folks". Seems to me like they are real saddos because how hard could a message a couple ago be? And if you actually read, people did not refresh the page all day. In Northern America, it is NOT 3 PM like it is in the UK, well in some parts anyways. It is usually early morning when the updates come. So people staying up a bit, and checking at this time is completely sensible, it isn't a lack of a common sense. As usual, Jagex apologists appear, apologizing for a [cabbage] business model of procrastination. This isn't about kids moaning or (though some probably did). This is about honesty and consistency. If you need more time, be honest, don't [bleep]ing hype it up, pretend everything is going find and then around the last hour or so, come and tell us that it isn't ready--tell us before.

You know what is even more frustrating, not only do they hype things up huge, and constantly fail to deliver, they also announce at the ABSOLUTE latest hour that it won't be ready, after I have waited for it the 3rd day in a row. It isn't as if they encountered some new problem 20 minutes ago that disallowed them from releasing this update. They knew just as well earlier today that it wouldn't be released. How about they put a [bleep]ing twitter hint earlier than after the usual time in the morning when updates are released? This is tiresome and disappointing. Jagex can go [bleep] themselves. I am ok with them taking the time to straighten things out occasionally but don't make us wait, be honest. All of this has to do with their inexcusable business model where they work updates AFTER they announce then. These updates should already be ready and the only thing they should be doing is last minute testing. Not [bleep]ing making up half the update the week before it is supposed to be release. So yeah, to all those apologists, it IS their fault for having a [cabbage] business model. Actually they announced it quite early today. It was announced like an hour ago(unless I am mistaken), on the day of the update when people were expecting the update, refreshing constantly. That seems to me to be the absolute latest they could have possibly done. How is that early in any sense of the word? If I am mistaken then ignore this post. Because it was announced at approximately the very earliest that updates ever come out on a given day. Meaning people really should not have been waiting very long. You know some people actually stayed(I don't anymore), if Jagex had done the responsible thing, they wouldn't have had to stay an additional 2 or so hours waiting for an update when all Jagex was going to do was tell us it isn't ready. Like I said, this should be announced before hand, not at the moment when the update should have been released. That isn't early in the least.

You know what is even more frustrating, not only do they hype things up huge, and constantly fail to deliver, they also announce at the ABSOLUTE latest hour that it won't be ready, after I have waited for it the 3rd day in a row. It isn't as if they encountered some new problem 20 minutes ago that disallowed them from releasing this update. They knew just as well earlier today that it wouldn't be released. How about they put a [bleep]ing twitter hint earlier than after the usual time in the morning when updates are released? This is tiresome and disappointing. Jagex can go [bleep] themselves. I am ok with them taking the time to straighten things out occasionally but don't make us wait, be honest. All of this has to do with their inexcusable business model where they work updates AFTER they announce then. These updates should already be ready and the only thing they should be doing is last minute testing. Not [bleep]ing making up half the update the week before it is supposed to be release. So yeah, to all those apologists, it IS their fault for having a [cabbage] business model. Actually they announced it quite early today. It was announced like an hour ago(unless I am mistaken), on the day of the update when people were expecting the update, refreshing constantly. That seems to me to be the absolute latest they could have possibly done. How is that early in any sense of the word? If I am mistaken then ignore this post.

You know what is even more frustrating, not only do they hype things up huge, and constantly fail to deliver, they also announce at the ABSOLUTE latest hour that it won't be ready, after I have waited for it the 3rd day in a row. It isn't as if they encountered some new problem 20 minutes ago that disallowed them from releasing this update. They knew just as well earlier today that it wouldn't be released. How about they put a [bleep]ing twitter hint earlier than after the usual time in the morning when updates are released? This is tiresome and disappointing. Jagex can go [bleep] themselves. I am ok with them taking the time to straighten things out occasionally but don't make us wait, be honest. All of this has to do with their inexcusable business model where they work updates AFTER they announce then. These updates should already be ready and the only thing they should be doing is last minute testing. Not [bleep]ing making up half the update the week before it is supposed to be release. So yeah, to all those apologists, it IS their fault for having a [cabbage] business model.

Well, they(RWT) can just as easily go on your account and train it/make money by other things like Godwars and what not, so by that logic you have proclaim that everything in RS enables RWT. Or, you have to remove this inexplicable connection between RWT and 76k. I concur with you that RWT will alwaays exist, however, to me it appears that Jagex doesn't particularly care about RWT, they care about control. That is why all this BS with the GE is happening which DIRECTLY enables RWT but Jagex refuses to fix it because that would mean losing some of their artificial price caps and ultimately their control. Talk about insecurity; you are already the developers of the game,how much more control do you need?

I would just like to point out that RWT STILL exists thanks to that pitiful excuse of 'Free trade where players dictate the prices' that Jagex calls the Grand Exchange. Due to price limits(not trade limits but artificial price limits), there are plenty of ways people can transfer money.

I think that one of the reasons this limit was imposed was so that no more money would be created artificially. I mean think about it...with the release of untradeable potions there's going to be a massive interest by many players to level their herblore therefore a big demand on herblore related items, if they let items (that can be easily acquired in shops) such as these go "wild" then investors and merchanters would basically get loads of free money... Quite frankly i think this whole G.E. thing needs to be reformulated...i'm sick of waiting for x item to crash to be able to afford it, or to wait until item y gets up again so i can sell it without losing money, that also includes levelling...waiting for resource z to get cheaper so i can afford a level. i could add more examples but i think you get the picture :-P There are a TON of ways that merchanters get money far more easily and far more illicitely. This should be least of thier concern. What exactly does this accomplish? It lets NO-ONE get anything. I would much rather that the merchers horde it and I pay their fee rather than not being able to buy it at all. It isn't that they are concerned about merchants because they have already let them off on far more serious issues; they have already stated that they pretty much intend to do nothing. This was pretty much another way to make players waste more time so it takes us longer to get 96 herblore and we keep paying more money. Not impressed in the least bit.

Once again, Jagex reinforces the notion that the true motivation behind the GE was complete control over the RS market, as opposed to their false claims about the 'evil' RWT and what not. It is more so about stopping people from making amounts of money they deem inappropriate(while 76king still runs wild) than anything else. Since when was taking advantage of market prices for a nice profit here and there a bad thing?(Not talking about merchanting/price manipulation) There are so many things wrong such as price manipulation, lack of high level updates and what not, and this is what they choose to invest their efforts in?How to block what is left of free trade and DIRECTLY opposing transactions. So much for players determining prices(they spouted this rhetoric multiple times after 10/12). Absolutely ridiculous. As for those of you ignorantly stating that this update is fine; WAKE UP because you clearly don't realize the implications behind this. I can't think of any sane reason to do this other than just to piss us off. It was one thing when they mispriced several items and refused out of laziness to manually fix them, and now it is another thing to INTENTIONALLY misprice items that were priced fine. Instead of relaxing price limits as they promised; particularly on new items rather than having us wait months for the Grand Excrement to reach the proper price/equilibrium, they are pulling off this crap. Just [bleep]ing great.

Because you certainly didn't when making this thread. Runescape is a stat-based game where you grind individual stats to mold the character of your choosing, and you get better at doing things by doing them, a lot. What do you want, Runescape to be like Free Realms where leveling your certain skills requires you to partake in mini-games, like woodcutting would be you gain exp based on how close to the green meter you get the the swinging axe? Skill in Runescape is figuring how to do things more efficiently, not acting like a 10 year old with ADD and a twitchy trigger finger shooting enemies. The issue is that you're equating the slower paced portions of Runescape, the non-combat skills, to tactical fps' and arcade fps' (Cod and Halo respectively). You're comparing apples and Boeing 747's, they are 100% different games with completely different goals, methods, mechanics, and ideas. No, Runescape isn't as fast paced, tactical, or flashy as Call of Duty, but it's not trying to be, and that's where the massive difference comes in. You're comparing chess to a game of GOT YOUR NOSE, complaining that chess doesn't give you the flashy ADD-driven gameplay you long for. And I'm sure the reaction half the people had here was along the lines of "what are you, stupid?" You're asking an obvious question, to make obvious conclusions, to make a stupid point. Ok, so Runescape is a "second job" to you, virtually all MMOs have a huge element of grind to them, it's how companies rope people into paying a monthly fee, they give them countless hours of grind. And you know what? People like it. You might not, but you're not the demographic that companies are shooting for, and none of us who enjoy grind-games care that you think of it as a second job. You say "wake up and see it" as if we're all in denial that Runescape is a massive grind. If you can find me one person who truly believes that Runescape is NOT a massive grind, go ahead and show them to me. Until then, all you're doing is stating the obvious to make some invalid argument. I'll show how your argument can sum up another genre: You sit there every day for two hours playing Call of Duty. And what do you do the entire time? You lay prone, you take cover, you shoot imaginary people, and finally at the end of the day you find someone that takes more skill. or do they? When does Call of Duty really take any skill to play? When you break it down, even firefights take no skill whatsoever. You lay prone, and camp, wait for someone to run by, and shoot them. You find a spot where people can't see you, and you just pick them off one at a time. There's no gravity pull on bullets, you don't have to worry about damage to the gun from freezing temperatures, water damage, etc. Hit z to prone, click the mouse a few times. So my point is that Call of Duty takes no skill to play, at its core it's a really boring version of tiresome point and click games, just in a 3d atmosphere. Wake up and see it. Your point summed up: The argument you make is perfectly valid and find, and I agree for the most part. However, I think he is right to an extent too. Now I can't speak for you, but chances are we have all been addicted at one point or another. To be 'sucessful' in Runescape, by definition you have to be addicted. It is sad that in our society this kind of behavior is condoned and is becoming somewhat acceptable. I am all for self-control, but this is the sort of thing that governments should be reigning in, I have known people who played a good 15 hours EVERYDAY the whole summer, this sort of behavior is simply not healthy. And yeah, all games have to an extent--whether its Runescape or console based--but I don't think either is healthy. I definetely agree that there are other things (more productive things) that one can spend their time on. Though, we don't(myself included) don't want to hear these things because we are addicted. ;)

No, there were a huge series of updates that were short-sighted--all addded today. Aside from, this whole year has been testament to how out of touch they are, so I concur with the originally poster.

You spelled his name incorrectly. Additionally, TS is anything but "Anti-Jagex", TS is a place for people to look at Runescape critically--but I suppose I am wasting my time by mentioning that at Tip.it which has essentially been a breeding ground for Brown Nosers to rally to Jagex hence why when people at TS attempt to look at things objectively--they are labelled "Anti".

---Sir V. -----Doomedrusher http://www.truthscape.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=4623

On the contrary, it can. That is what makes Runescape so tragic, it CAN be the best MMORPG out there, it is boiling with potential. However, the management couldn't care any less than they already do about making that a reality. Well he is right, there are some things you just can't do on a browser; for instance, it will be a long time before RS graphics are up to date. I don't care much for graphics but it is a fact that there are certain limitations attached.

Whether I am an intelligent poster or not, I will leave that for others to decide. There is a fine line between constructive criticism and trolling, you seem to border of the latter, I am not sure if you realize that or not. If you had done the former, I am sure that would have only *encouraged* such posters to be an active part of this community. I will give you an example: A while back--after PVP worlds were released and Jagex turned their eyes onto BH, someone posted a thread where he said that Jagex was looking to that away the 'classical loot' system and replace it with something similar to PVP. You responded saying how the thread was pointless and he should have never bothered posting--and low and behold--what happened a while later? Precisely as he predicted. I don't agree with the positions that you assume--but I welcome them, I enjoy civil discussions, it is your argumentation that I refuse to welcome and that is also the case for others. While I agree that often criticism isn't as constructive as I would prefer it to be, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with "QA/Jagex sucks", with the way they have been lately, it isn't necessarily a fictional statement. Jagex refuses to acknowledge that their QA and CS is in major need of improvement, and accepting that is the first step, when people make such statements, they are acknowledging such problems, and eventually when enough of these people make such comments, maybe Jagex will do something.(This blog is probably a result of such comments--never in the past have they done anything of the sort.) I just don't find the kind of comments you make to these sort of people(usually smarky) to be very constructive, espacially considering many players are rather young and this is their first time as real 'customers' and they are just frustrated. Jagex's CS treats all of their customers as if they are children, and so when said customers are frustrated, they respond in the manner they are accustomed to. I agree, it is simply your arugmentation that I sometimes don't agree with. Now, for this discussion, you have been *very* civil, and I do appreciate that. Well in a way you pretty much are saying it is the player's fault. I mean it *shouldn't* have been a stupid move to make considering that he was in a safe minigame. 99% of companies actually have decent CS and they *will* reimburse you for their mistakes whether it is day 1 or not. Even WoW day one or not, goes out of their way to reimburse you. Granted RS is updated bi-weekly, but the quality of updates is horrendous. Often, we just get some standard "Messenger-boy" quest, that is designed for lower levels which most lower levels don't do because they have too much content on their hands already, and most Higher levels are unsatisfied and after the 15-30 minutes required on the quest, no one ever looks back on it. Most people would prefer some meaningful content and I assure you, they would be willing to wait. The problem is, Jagex gives such people the cold shoulder, and then it leads to other problems(faulty content because they would much rather dish out some filler quest bi-weekly rather than giving something more concrete). I don't know where I am going with this, but I am simply saying their whole business model is rather messed up, and the core of that is their attitude. Another point I would like to make in order to illustrate that the player wasn't even 'stupid' is the fact that Jagex is super deceptive when it comes to their policies. For instance, for YEARS, in their terms and service(which I realize is subject to change) they clearly stated that they would never get rid of free trade and influence such things--which in turn encouraged people to build characters like stakers and what not and invest thousands of hours into the game(something most people would not have done had they known from the start that such restrictive(some of which unnecessary--we can debate that if you want). They only removed that from their terms and conditions sometime in 2008--after someone from Truthscape informed them that they could face legal consequences for that. On top of that, their 'no reimbursement' policy isn't common knowledge(hence why updates are still trying out updates on first day) and the general expectation(from any customer to and provider) is that if its your fault, you fix it. Then you have Jagex's official policy, which explicitely states that if the problem occured from a circumstance under their control, that they would reimburse you(vaguely in such terms). So not only do they lie, but it isn't really the players fault or stupidity. So that is why I disagree with you calling the user stupid because it kind of borders on the blame the victim mentality. "Jagex wrote: Functioning of Jagex Products We will do our best to maintain operation of Jagex Products and rectify faults as quickly as possible. We may have to suspend operation of a Jagex Product without notice for repair, maintenance, improvement or other technical reason. If so, we will do our best to ensure that the suspension is as short as possible. We cannot accept responsibility for such suspensions or for any interruption or error caused by circumstances outside our reasonable control. We cannot guarantee that Jagex Products will work with any particular computer equipment or in conjunction with any particular software or connectivity services. We do not accept responsibility for such equipment, software or services." QA and testing is *not* out of their reasonable control. I agree, espacially considering that some players often have in-depth suggestions with all of the content planned out--with only the coding remaining. Jagex ignores such players and often when they adapt such ideas(CW-which was a player suggested idea at first), they completely change it into some other monstrosity and then they refuse to acknowledge the players. Simply put they are dishonest and uncooperative and it seems they aren't really as interested in maintaining their product as they should be. For instance, a couple of months before the trade limits, with the removal of Staking and the addition of Grand Exchange, someone questioned Jagex on that, and Jagex *lied* about having any intent on removing free trade. They kept their customers in the dark and lied to them. Honesty is another big concern. When you have a company that is dishonest and unwilling to cooperate, it is no wonder why we are in the mess we are now and why we are always the last party to anything. Many players have even suggested many constructive suggestions to the trade limits, yet they go unheeded. Jagex keeps its players out of the dark, and instead of taking suggestions into consideration before updates, they take it only when updates prove to be resounding failures and they have no choice. Well, I haven't been as pleased with this year as I thought. Upgrades, should have meant fixing old content, not *just* minor glitches. Most updates weren't necessarily what the players asked for. However, I will add that I thoroughly enjoyed this week's update, and while it was glitch filled--since it wasn't anything game breaking--I am not really concerned, on top of that, it WAS something the players asked for. However, this year has still been lackluster. There is a rather interesting and comprehensive list of 'Little jobs that could make a big difference' on Truthscape, I imagine that is what a lot of players would like to see. The things in that list are the kind of things that I would like to see Jagex approach constructive sites(TS and others) about. Not as ranty as me! :lol:

Pretty much, for a long while now, you unncessarily defend Jagex and do so belligerently--refusing to hear anything to the contrary--this has happened on more than one occasion. You are the reason that quite a few intelligent posters refrain from posting on these forums; some people have better things to do than deal with trolls. Care to explain the fact that a significant portion of MA wasn't even PLAYABLE or BH/PVP(in the first few hours you weren't able to attack others. Yeah, I accept the fact that Jagex can't be perfect, and nor have I ever expected them to be such, however, that doesn't mean I am going to be close minded and trust them blindly like you do. Yeah, often there are honest mistakes, and then there are instances where it should be plainly obvious that they are BS'ing. Either that or I guess they didn't bother to test out 75% of MA and the most basic thing in BH; attacking people. Considering the way they handle their CS, and the way they treat their customers even while admitting that they were at fault(350M: "I know more about your account than you do." "Sorry I guess you were right, you DID lose your items due to it being OUR fault." "You still won't be getting your items back however an apology from me is so rare that you should be glad for getting just that".). Sorry but you are going to have come with a really solid argument if you intend to convince anyone that Jagex doesn't loathe its customers. Add on top of that--NO appeals if you are suspected of autoing(despite there being false bannings about this in the fast), I am all ears if you have anything to say to the contrary. Simply stating "They don't hate you" isn't enough. That comment would be best applicable to you. There are plenty of people who will fly right into new updates with their prized possessions in their bank. If half of runescape learned from past events, we would have someone diving neck first into Mobilising Armies, one of the biggest ventures as far as the Runescript system can go, with 350mil waiting to be lost. That is simply complete nonsense; so now you are claiming that the player is at fault for taking items to what was supposed to be a safe minigame? Basically what you are saying is you should know better than to trust Jagex with decent QA on the day of the update--while at the same time you are coming to their defence in classical sheeple style. As a more general comment: It makes little sense for Jagex to engage in such business practices--something most other business don't do. It isn't necessarily their QA that is scary, it is their response. If you are gonna have a 'no-reimbursement policy', your QA better be robust and nearly flawless. What is frustrating is that Jagex has a POOR track record/share of mistakes of QA(just look at this year alone) and on TOP of that they refuse to refund items. That is just nonsensical espacially when all it would require is a few minutes. Most people wouldn't be so harsh on Jagex if they just admit their mistakes. Granted there is a certain sector that *will* always whine, but that is a minority, the vast majority will gladly give Jagex more respect and leeway if Jagex smartens up.

No but Jagex is one unit; they should be aware and probably are aware that if something wrong goes on the end of coders, they have to collectively owe up to the mistake. It doesn't matter if they aren't the public face of the company; this kind of thing is HORRIBLE PR, and it reflects negatively on Jagex. You can see the effect on RS forums, and even Tip.it. Both are places which are hugely Pro-Jagex, but left and right players are distraught and dissatisfied. Jagex assumes that since its customer base is mostly kids that they can do whatever they want, but that isn't the case. Kids aren't completely naive. Like, I said NO OTHER COMPANY on the face of the Earth gets away with that kind of stuff, and they have to reduce their profits by resupplying faulty material, and here all Jagex has to do is; respawn a few items in people's banks or do a rollback(if the problem is widespread), it doesn't even cost them money, so there is absolutely no reason not to. It shows a lack of respect and an abundunce of apathy and loathing for their customers. No you need to just think what you just said, because I am not quite sure you realize what you just said. Even the BIGGEST corporations apologize and reimburse for this kind of stuff when their fault is made public knowledge, are you seriously saying that Jagex is above such things? This is morally/ethically unjustifiable, and there might be some legal troubles(even Microsoft had to conceede to court orders despite their 'company policy' being different prior to that), just because two people agree to an agreement doesn't mean it would be held in court. I am sure the BBB has something to say about Jagex's practices. And most important of all, this is HORRIBLE PR. Jagex isn't 'that' big, like I said, much bigger corporations that would make Jagex look like a small business have had to cave in. And in the eyes of most players, this was *not* a 'rule', most people thought they would do the right thing; hence the outrage. And why shouldn't they? Just about every customer in the world has this expectation. So I don't see what you are trying to point out? That they should go out of their way, to maintain a rule that wasn't even well known(they didn't even allow discussion on such things) and one that any businessman with half a brain follows? I don't see the problem with that, or just saying 'from this point on we will reimburse you if it is proven that we are at fault', just because they have been doing something wrong(from a business and morality point of view), doesn't mean they should continue to do it because they don't want to do it for everyone. It is common sense that this is the 'right' thing to do. They keep detailed logs of everything anyways. People would be for the most part willing to forgive them if they changed their stance--even for just future incidents, and they wouldn't have more distraught people over major bugs--which seem to be a common occurence on their parts. Seriously, just how long do you or they think they can keep this up? Like I said, the 350M debacle; the response to it was significant, players were disillusioned. Like I said a lot of people are distraught at the moment, and given Jagex's track record as of late, I would like to see them respond when one of their bugs effects a significant portion of the population. See above; even just future incidents would be more acceptable than what the current policy, and they keep up detailed logs anyways. If they act fast on bugs, then even if anything happens, it would only take at most maybe a day or two to refund items. Runescape (website) visitors have been declining(if you take a look any of the various websites that keep track of this stuff),this is not the kind of thing they need. In times of an economic recession, where (regardless of what you beleive) a lot of people aren't happy with the updates this year, and Runescape visitors have been declining, this would be a serious concern if I was Andrew Gower. And the number of people quitting over this stuff is not something easily dismissed. It will only take a couple more of such instances(of which I have no doubt that Jagex has the incompetency to produce) to wake up the masses. When they realize that Jagex has a tendency to produce game ending bugs(whether it is their fault or simply honest mistakes) and that they will not be reimbursed when clearly Jagex is at fault particularly if there aren't enough exciting updates to keep them interested; beleive me, they will not stand for it, as no customer does. That is the harsh reality of Jagex, not the business world. 99% of corporations/business out there who are much larger than Jagex, will happily reimburse their customers even at the cost of profits because its the sensible thing to do(even from a pure profit motive). Jagex isn't bigger than those people and can't pretend any longer that they are above such things. I mentioned earlier in my response that people on RSOF and Tip.it have been unnecessarily 'Pro-Jagex' for a very long time, refusing to even consider the possibility that Jagex *might* be at fault and that their response to such situations just *might* be insufficient or unacceptable; this is an attitude I attribute to sheeple, and while I mean no disrespect, it seems to me that you qualify as one. Do you just realize what you just said? Take a moment, and re-read(a couple times might do the trick) and try to actually comprehend what you just wrote. Are you kidding me? Can you comprehend how utterly ludicrous you sound? This kind of stuff isn't 'guaranteed' because most people assume based on common sense that this is the norm; that when you offer a service, that you generally(I say this because I am uncertain of the kind of treatment you usually receive from your producers and of which world you live in) expect that they have performed their job well. When you go and buy a brand new car, you generally expect that you can actually start it and it can actually transport you(the mileage advertised is irrelevant, people would expect it work regardless of it). If for instance, such a thing did not happen, do you honestly expect that the company in question could get away with the aforemention attitude which you just spewed? Heck, I can go to the DOLLAR store(not the ones that are part of the DOLLARAMA chain, but locally owned ones--where I don't even know the owner) and despite the fact nearly all of them have a no-refund policy, I can refund it if I tell them that the product I purchased was faulty(I have done so quite a few times and they have happily complied). If something as tiny as Dollar store can refund things, and a corporation as large as Microsoft can refund things(despite having similar policies to that of Jagex), Jagex is no exception to what should be evidently common sense and the norm; that when you purchase something, you expect it work, that when you are engaging in business with adults/businessmen/supplies/sellers etc., that you expect them to be professionals and do their job relatively well, it doesn't matter if it is difficult, if you are in a business (something you choose willingly to pursue) it is expected that this particular one thing, you do well. For you to even justify (or attempt to) what should not require some 'debate' and nothing more than common sense is just absolutely mind boggling. Based on your responses, it would seem that you seem to think that such people don't have genuine grievances, which is just not the case. Even the person you quoted could have had legitimate grievances(considering Jagex didn't reimburse--which indeed make such a thing the worst mistake in years) but you in what seems to be the sheeple manner in which members of Tip.it and RSOF flock behind Jagex unquestionably dismissed it and proceeded to rant. It is very much directly related to this thread, I assure you. And while I am not a conspiracy theorist, at this point, that argument is hard to easily dismiss. And that perfectly sums up the stance they *should* take on the aforementioned issue , my point exactly.

We do all make mistakes sometimes. The complexity comes in when we think about the fact that it might have been a change in a seemingly unrelated subsystem that broke the monsters. I think Jagex needs a test realm, like other MMORPGs. If you had a few thousand people "idiot testing" updates for a week before release, I think it would catch a lot more of the problems. A couple of quick things: Yes, Jagex definetely needs a test realm/team, particularly when people are willing to do it for free, there is no reason not to take them up on that offer. Another thing, its one thing to have a mistake every now and then, it is another to have update after update riddled with MAJOR GAME BREAKING bugs. The MA one was difficult to forgive because they postponed the release by several months. No one expects Jagex to be perfect, but we do expect them to be good. But on top of that, is their attitude. Regardless of circumstances, the player is ALWAYS at fault, if they were willing to admit their mistake and compensate when clearly they are at fault, I don't think most people would care if they screwed up here and there, every other company in the world owes up to their mistake whether legally obliged or not, Jagex does not. It doesn't even cost them money, is it really that difficult to refund a couple of in game items? Take the 350M guy for instance, Mod came in, arrogantly insisted that he was 100% certain that the player was lieing, was extremely rude, made an apathetic apology, and concluded that apologies from him are so rare that they must be worth 350M. Sorry, but this sort of stuff is completely inexcusable. They didn't refund for Fally massacre either, they are at fault, not for the lack of testing but for their horrific and inhumane customer support. Not only that, but it seems that all of their 'branches'/'teams' are completely isolated from one another, which is why you often get conflicting/contradictory responses from Mods, so it might be that they don't check for conflicts between different patches and programmed material, not a smart thing to do if it is the case. Either event, they are at fault in regards to horrific responses to a lack of testing/game breaking bugs, and no amount of apologizing on anyone's part is going to change that. A lot of players DO have legitimate greivences. Some may not express them in the best of ways, however. Usually Jagex has always had nice updates around the same time as such things to cover up their half assed work(Summoning after the December 12 updates), but this time around it isn't the case. That is why players are getting disillusioned and are even more intolerant of any mistakes(past or present) on Jagex's part, which is a just response in my opinion.