D Jay99

Well I guess that's different in america then, in holland there's quite a lot of options if you don't want to buy meat that has been produced in a certain way. And yeah that last point is indeed an important question and it really should be answered first before even starting this debate

Talk about horrible - look at that analogy. Buying food that originated in misery farms is not the same as hiring an assassin, not even close. Firstly, a lot of consumers are ignorant about the miserable conditions (or they are aware of them, but do not want it that way), whereas the person hiring the assassin is directly asking for the miserable condition of murdering a human. Secondly, if a person were to stop being a consumer of those misery farms, it wouldn't really have an effect, whereas the hiring of an assassin is completely up to one individual - they are the direct cause of it. Thirdly, there is a substantial difference between a cow and a person. So I agree with Not Trolling. The problem lies within the factories, not on our plates. Well yeah you do have a point, analogies usually suck and so did mine :P I don't agree with the last line though, since you can buy meat that wasn't produced in misery farms. The factories are basically able to exist because no one really objects, it's (watch this another analogy, watched movie about abolition of slavery last week) a bit like the slave trade really, most people thought it was okay or at least they didn't really care until a few individuals pointed out the flaws in the system and eventually even made the slave trade illegal. I honestly think we as a pretty advanced species should be able to survive without killing animals for food, and since someone has to start you might as well do it. Won't ever happen though ofc because most people are pretty uncapable of long-term thinking.

What else can you do with womans anyway besides [bleep]ing them. So yeah [bleep] women.

Except these animals wouldn't even be there if not for food production.They basically get created so they can be killed (and eaten). Which brings us to the next question, is it better to create life and then let it live a pretty horrible life and kill it, or just not to create it at all? That is the fault of the American Meat Industries, not the meat eater's. Bad practices in producing livestock isn't really our fault, because we're not the ones raising it. If we're talking about life in the strict sense, growing vegetables for the sole purpose of harvesting it is also 'murder'. But personally, I think it's not entirely ethical to raise animals solely for slaughter though. Perhaps we should find a more sustainable wild food source, certain species of fish that never stops breeding. Well yeah but most meat eaters act like they can't do anything about it. While this is technically true, buying the meat that is produced that way isn't helping at all, especially when there's other meat you can buy that was produced in a less animal degrading way. That last argument is pretty horrible too, it's like paying an assasin to kill someone and then claim it wasn't your fault because you didn't do it yourself. Playing devil's advocate here for a bit since I really couldn't care less about cows Also have you still not realized theres a substantial difference between the animals we raise to produce meat and plants? Because you keep bringing it up and it really holds no ground. No idea where but I think a mod/admin made a pretty good post on some differences between animals and plants.

I don't see why you would hate the girl for doing that. I do that all the time. At my work, a lot of my coworkers order in pizza sometimes, and they'll say to me, "We got pepperoni, but you can have some if you want," assuming that I would be fine with removing the meat or fat. I would never, ever pick off pepperoni from a pizza, mop up the juice, and then turn around and eat it. That's like asking a vegetarian to drink a cup of chicken broth, just because it technically doesn't have meat in it. And for what it's worth, while your friend EJ's reason is perfectly valid, I find that Random Girl's reasoning for being a vegetarian is far more honorable and respectable. The real thing that annoys me about it is the whole "I see the animal's tortured face and feel super guilty D:" thing. That just isn't true. It isn't like they have some psychic perception that tells them whether or not they're eating meat, nor even what kind of animal it is. If she eats a school lunch, does she see a raccoon? Of course not. It might also help to add that this person is a daoist, who believes that the "Universe" will take care of everything, and that you can sit back and everything takes care of itself. :\ It's really the whole mindset that I dislike. Another mindset that bugs me is that 'killing livestock is cruel'. Even if they have the right to live, it's silly to say that killing these animals are 'cruel', because even out in the wild, they won't die of old age with their family by their bedside holding their hands. They usually get eaten, and being eaten is usually more frightening/painful than the way they get killed in a slaughterhouse. Except these animals wouldn't even be there if not for food production.They basically get created so they can be killed (and eaten). Which brings us to the next question, is it better to create life and then let it live a pretty horrible life and kill it, or just not to create it at all?

Never mind the posts that disprove your arguments, just ignore those

Probs gonna end up being a huge circlejerk thread judging from last few posts :P I kinda like harrinator's (or whatever his name is now) and istolethepie's posts, and it's still a shame warri0r left.

In that case anyone can profess to be as efficient as they like. You know them, you've met them in game and thought 'Yeah right!' And that isn't the point of this thread at all, good job

HINT you can be efficient and still dont train skills you don't like

Theres a difference between a person having fun, and a person cutting maples, smithing steel bars and wearing a dfs + fighter torso while slaying. The first person might have chosen not to be efficient in order to do something they like, while the second person is almost without exception uneducated on the subject of efficiency and time=money (e: you should fish monks you make 40m from getting 99 its awesome, aka this person sucks at rs). When you compare being efficient to person 2 it becomes clear that person 2 is just wasting time, which allows the efficient person to feel he is better than person 2.

^ Cool isnt a way to describe music really. Well it's more a case of preferring interesting riffs+drums and some guy who's actually good at growling over listening to a guy wailing cheesy lyrics (all power metal vocalists sound the same) over some standard cheesy power chord + basic drum stuff in the usual verse-chorus-verse-etc structure while building up to the next [bleep]y solo. wait wat

^ Yeah same I left it in front of a gd and said so, and they were like omg why is the ggs in an empty room@ at least 3 times. And then you die because theyre not giving you any food and some mage spots you when you try to home tele while trapped in a corner without pray. And after having to relog because of monster limit, I take 4 salves from the other guys 20 salve pile because I didn't have any food at 600lp. The other guy starts complaining even tho boss is flesh-spoiler. I mean really, every time I go back to try w117 I get depressed.

Awesome point but how exactly does it relate to our western culture?

dude it's been answered about two dozen times in this thread. I'm starting to believe that you just refuse to believe our explanations This would be true if pro-efficiency supporters actually took the time to explain 'why' they think they are efficient. A few rough explanations have been done, including yours which was mostly off topic. Explanations like 'I kill things fast' doesn't really make a great debate or justify the point. I'm not refusing your explanations, and on the contrary, I fully believe that you yourself calculates every last drop of xp to the hour. I'm actually wondering why, in particular, those who answered 'no' when you asked them about defining it purely in xp/gp/time did not want to elaborate on this and what they base their claims to be efficient on. Higher average xp/h usually, as well as being better at activities. You'll probably have used a kyatt to train summoning before, but did you also lap the others doing this every few laps? Same for runecrafting. And I actually find this competitive aspect pretty fun, pushing myself to get faster. Same for slayer, way outkilling everyone else in the area and then having some guy ask you 'what weapon is that (rapier)' feels pretty good. Same for finishing fletching in 2 days with broad arrows when you know others will be spending way more time to achieve the same. It's basically a way to justify spending time on something.

Not everyone can achieve 99 Farming and think they're the best thing since sliced bread. Nice avatar and signature with double mention of your 99 Farming. Go farm you suck good luck with gop :thumbup:

I simply don't see the difference between most things, it's all just clicking and the fun for me comes from achieving something. I mean, is cutting yews really more fun than cutting ivy? It's both just clicking. Same goes for lots of other training methods, with the exception of blackjacking/fletching bolts etc since that just requires too much attention (wow I value fun over efficiency here). But for everything else, I choose the fastest option, since slower methods (at least to me) aren't more fun. I mean whats fun about slaying in barrows with whip and no prayer + just normal ext pots? It's all just the same click monster and wait till it dies, at least ovls+turmoil+cannon+familiar+spec rests+trying to max kills/h etc gives me something to do and a sense of achievement. Efficiency can actually be less boring than the normal methods that some people who oppose efficiency in this thread deem 'fun'. But of course, it's entirely subjective, never mind me getting done with my goals faster. And then there's people who use gop or something to train rc, because that's more fun than normal rcing. Might be, but it's also like 3 times as slow. I'll be zmi'ing for 1/3rd of the time and spending the other 2/3rds on something that is actually fun like mhing (I haven't done this enough though I need to start mhing more), not just more fun than the other method.

I would use verac's set it can ignore their def

People who don't shower in the morning usually smell like bed, regardless of deodorant. And besides I can't wake up without a shower anyway so I shower in the morning.

Pasta, rice, potatoes (and all varieties on that, fries etc), couscous, soup, pizza, pancakes, quiche, etc. Of course with various kinds of vegetables etc, and also I find meat replacements to be pretty good around here, not just tofu at all (http://www.tivall.co.uk/, http://www.valess.nl/). And please dont start an argument about how meat replacements look like meat and are supposed to taste like meat etc, I get that so much it's not even funny. "But why make it look and taste like meat if youre against eating meat??" Hurr that's not my choice, it tastes good, contains proteins and is vegetarian that's why I eat it.

The point is that posting that you even thought about saving it to your archives (joke or not) is pretty creepy. also there are some pics of my trip to rome to be uploaded so when they do I'll post one I guess.

Veg for 17 years and no deficients (deficiencies?) at all, hi The reason why people usually claim vegetarianism is more healthy is because vegetarians usually put more thought into what they eat, meat eaters usually just eat, like you said, everything, without really thinking about what they eat. If meat eaters would actually pay as much attention to their diet as vegs they'd probs eat a bit more healthy, yes. But I wouldn't go around claiming a vegetarian diet is more unhealthy when the article you're quoting is talking about vegans.

Last saturday I watched the latest star wars movie, also has 2 time lines. Apparently our dvd player was messed up, since the scene order got completely messed up (credits and intro somewhere in the middle), but I just assumed it was supposed to be that way since it was a sci-fi weird timeline anyway, artistic interpretation of the director. Looking bad it wasn't even half bad, this made things a bit more involving since after reading the plot on the internet the normal movie without the messed up scenes seems pretty boring :P Anyway, a bit off topic this

Always pro choice, easy to create new baby (who, surprise, might even grow up under better circumstances than the previous unwanted/accidental/whatever baby).