muggiwhplar

This makes me wonder if people are going to eventually start being intentionally inefficient in an attempt to 1-up each other to show off how much grinding they can tolerate.

Of course it's not always a bad thing. I'm just saying that the people pursuing long-term monogamy are forgetting that regardless of how mature and "prepared" they are, the factors that are going to determine the "success" of their relationship are largely out of their control.

I think most people equate being alone with loneliness, but that's not the case-- at least for me, it isn't. There's a big difference between being alone and being lonely. With that said, I don't think people are necessarily afraid of growing old and dying alone; they're afraid of growing old and dying without meaningful relationships. The reason why being "alone" for the rest of my life doesn't bother me is because I have close, meaningful relationships with many, many people-- some of which are over 15 years old now. I think a lot of people dislike being alone just because they're a lot more extroverted than I am. They need to constantly be having social interactions or else they'll start feeling unhappy. I'm the opposite. As much as I love my friends, if I'm with them 24 hours a day for more than a few days, I get the urge to be alone for a few days so I can "recharge." Once I've spent enough time in solitude, I'll spend more time with my loved ones. When I was in college, most of my friends would move back in with their families over winter break for a month at a time and I'd be left alone. For the first week or so, I'd really miss my friends and start feeling lonely. But after that first week or so, I'd get used to being alone and enjoy my solitude. When winter break was over, and my friends would want to hang out again, I'd miss being alone for about a week or so until I'd find that "balance" again between being social and being alone. ------ Regarding "what I care about": for the past four years in college, my mission was related to my fraternity, and I put in countless hours working towards it. But now that that's all finished, I'm in the process of creating a new one. It'll probably be based around similar principles, just in a different setting. I also care a lot about my friends and dedicate a lot of my free time to them, but that's kind of "passive"; I've never actively thought of how to maintain and develop a friendship... it's just something I've naturally been good at. ...in other words, my friendships are probably my primary source of happiness. But at the same time, it's very comforting to know that I can survive without them if I need to. ---- EDIT: Another way to put it would be-- people are afraid of dying without a romantic partner. But what do they seek in a romantic partner? Usually someone to give you affection, good social interactions, and sex. But you don't need a romantic partner for all of those things; it's just that all of those needs can conveniently be satisfied by one person. But you know I don't think it's a wise idea to rely on just one person to fulfill all of those needs for you :P

I don't see the logic in bashing the people who ask for donations to fund their goals. It'd be different if he was FORCING people to donate money somehow, but that's obviously not the case here. The problem here is that people see a guy with almost 5B XP, and they're unimpressed because he was smart about achieving it. Accepting donations doesn't mean his achievements are meaningless; it means he's smarter than the people too stubborn to maximize their time and efficiency.

It's not necessarily a matter of maturity-- it's a matter of the relationship "progression." You'll probably see changes in your girlfriend/wife's behavior when: -You move in with her -You marry her -You have kids with her

So sex ruins relationships? This is the issue that we agree to disagree on. I believe that sex and romance are basically 50/50. With that said, romance "threatens" relationships just as much as sex does. I want to be monogamous for several reasons. Firstly, I don't believe sex will make me happy. It never did before and I don't see why it will in the future. As a result, I'm not concerned with sleeping around or being "polyamorous" because having sex with one person will be more than enough for me. Secondly, I want to have kids. I believe the benefits of children living in a traditional family are enormous - studying statistics from jail membership to high school graduation make it plainly obvious that children with a present mother and father are much more likely to be stable, successful adults and enjoy stable, successful relationships of their own. This is either impossible or next to so in a polyamorous relationship as you've previously admitted. This is simplified, but I broke up with my girlfriend because I agree with your opinion that monogamy is extremely difficult. It took me a long time to realize, but I decided she was not someone who was capable of making me happy over a lifelong relationship. There are certain qualities I think someone who wants to have a successful marriage should possess, and, in short, I realized she didn't possess them. That's understandable-- but keep in mind that people change over time. Even if you manage to find a girl who you believe meets all of your "criteria" for an awesome wife and mother, there's a very strong chance that ten years down the road she'll be a much different person than the one you married, at least in the context of your relationship, that is. And the scary part is you won't know that until it's "too late."

Just curious, but have you ever actually been in a somewhat long term polyamorous relationship? And by that I mean actively "dating" multiple people, however you define dating... Well the way it works is-- after dating for several months or so, the girl will probably find someone else, and start dating him exclusively. And I'll wish her the best. But the funny thing is-- several months into that relationship, the girl will return to me and the "cycle" will restart :P Honestly I can't really give you a good answer on that one since I moved to a new city at the beginning of the summer, so I'm in the process of "starting over." Hence, the experimentation with online dating. I'm relatively sure girls will keep "returning" to me for a very long time, as long as I keep doing what I've been doing. I'll try keeping track of my poly stuff once I can get the ball rolling after cracking the code to online dating lol Also keep in mind, like I said before, there are different "degrees" of poly. From strictly one night stands, to friends with benefits only, to having a serious girlfriend without promising exclusivity. No, actually it's because it's difficult to keep official statistics on something that's largely unofficial...seeing as polyamorous people don't get married. So what statistics are you interested in tracking, then? Let me know and I'll try and keep a record of my own in the future. There's a few guys out there who've been keeping track of all of their poly "stats," and basically a poly "relationship" will last anywhere from a few months to a few years, and then the girl will "move on" to another guy, and then 90% of the time she'll return back to the poly guy to start a "new" relationship. Ties with platonic friends and family don't involve romantic love or sex. Also, out of curiosity, why do you want monogamy still? Is a lot of it coming from your belief that it's more "worthwhile" since it's more difficult and "consistently" long-term? And, (I'll understand if you don't want to answer this) why did you and your girlfriend break up after 5ish years?

I'm saying once you dedicate a lot of time to getting your shit together, then poly maintenance will be a lot more "automated" than mono maintenance would be. Yup. That's because poly people generally understand that no relationship lasts forever. But to be monogamous and to have the same belief would probably be detrimental to your relationship.

First: are you implying that it's a bad thing that a lot of thinking went into this on my part? Second: are you implying that a mature/healthy mono relationship doesn't require a lot of effort? Third: what does less drama and boredom have to do with structuring your life in a way to maintain happiness? A wise "work ethic" to me is putting in A LOT of hard work becorehand, and then reaping the benefits afterwards with minimal effort and maintenance; as opposed to the people who put in slightly less work than you-- constantly-- for the rest of their lives because they didn't "max out" their efforts enough to "retire" afterwards. (hope that part makes sense to you. Let me know if you need more clarification) I'm replying on my phone right now so I can't provide links for these fallacies, but just because "millions and millions of people" choose monogamy doesn't mean that monogamy is a good idea. Additionally, nature vs. nurture is more or less 50/50. So even if society supports monogamy in every aspect (which it DEFINITELY doesn't do anymore), that's still only HALF pf the equation. As I've said before, monogamy is unnatural within the context of the human species. Within the context of society, sure it's "natural," but that's irrelevant here. And yes, I don't mind people choosing monogamy as a strategy to "cope" with whatever issues are at hand. However, I expect those people to have chosen monogamy after a well-thought-out decision-making process which required them to weigh all of their options. If they STILL insist on monogamy after all that research (like Obfuscator does), then I wish them the best and hope it works out for them. At the same time, however, they don't deserve any sympathy if it all falls apart on them because they knew what they were getting themselves in to. Yes, personal tastes are SUBJECTIVE. But divorce statistics are OBJECTIVE, and those are the points I use to support my arguments.

ITT: Typical kneejerk reaction to something sexual :wall: Besides, they're not actually naked. I'm not seeing anything "R-rated" in the pics.

Yes, by being poly I'm more "susceptible" to jealousy. However, by structuring my life in the ways mentioned a few posts back, jealousy's not really a concern for me. Additionally, I'll gladly take jealousy in exchange for the perks of polyamory. A monogamous lifestyle, on the other hand, would require way too many sacrifices which would ultimately be detrimental to my long-term happiness. Also keep in mind that being monogamous doesn't make you immune to jealousy either :P

Good question! First of all, jealousy and attraction are completely different emotions. Secondly, jealousy is detrimental to my long-term happiness. So I structure my life in such a way that the effects of jealousy are minimal. When it comes to attraction, it's up for debate as to whether or not it's beneficial to your long-term happiness-- I think it mostly depends on context. For example, I personally think it's a good thing because there aren't really any negative consequences for feeling attraction. However, if I was in a monogamous relationship, then I could no longer say that. I discussed this earlier right here. Basically when it comes to our obsolete caveman brains, I do my best to structure my life such that I can maximize the good parts and minimize the shitty parts :) If feeling attraction towards other people is going to cause problems for you, then it's your job to figure out how to deal with that.

Funny you should ask that-- another regular poster on this thread actually PM'd me the same question this morning. Just gonna copy and paste my response: -------- Jealousy's always going to be there-- it's just part of our obsolete biology. Best thing you can do is just take a deep breath, relax, remind yourself that it's just chemicals in your obsolete brain talking, tell them to shut up, and move on with your life. :) Things that can affect the degree to how jealous you feel are: Self-esteem: If you have really high self-esteem and genuinely believe that a girl is "missing out" by choosing someone else over you; as opposed to feeling inferior to other men Sex perception: If you think sex is just sex and remove all of the ridiculous implications that religion and society have attached to it; as opposed to believing sex and love are the same thing Exciting Life: If you've got bigger fish to fry such as a huge goal/mission/hobby that you passionately enjoy; as opposed to having a boring life Abundance: If you have many more alternative sources of social/sexual interaction to keep you "busy" and happy; as opposed to only having one girl as a source of emotional and sexual fulfillment/satisfaction Meditation: If you can accept things for how they actually are (women being women; your brain being obsolete), even if it is unpleasant to do so, and regardless of your own biases; as opposed to getting caught up in your emotions and clinging to Disney fantasies But to answer your question, yes I remember struggling with jealousy for a few weeks about a year ago when I developed unreciprocated feelings for a long-time platonic friend. But the jealousy went away pretty fast when I addressed the things listed above. If I hear of a girl I care about doing things with another guy, it might sting for a minute or two, but after putting things in perspective it'll quit bothering me and I'll move on... It's hard to feel jealous for very long if you've got all your bases covered. --------- I think one of the reasons why people dismiss poly is because of the jealousy issue; they think that since poly is "flawed" in that way, then they shouldn't bother trying it. But monogamy is flawed as well-- even more than poly is. However people would rather stick with their terribly-flawed monogamous lifestyle, than switch to the less-flawed poly lifestyle. They'd only switch to poly if it was flawless. But sadly, no such arrangement exists. So they'll stick with monogamy, even though there's a better alternative.

Out of curiosity-- and this is directed at everybody in this thread-- how many of you hadn't considered any of this before I started posting about it? How many of you thought that long-term traditional monogamy was a great idea and the people who can't "make it work" are just immature and/or uncommitted? How many of you had no idea that there were actually alternatives to traditional monogamy that can still satisfy all of the same needs and make you happy? Most people are told their whole lives that "success" is: go to college, get a job, get married, settle down, have kids, retire. Except success is subjective. While that "path" may have worked for your parents and grandparents, the times have changed since then. Similarly, if you actually do want to follow a process like that, why do you want to follow a process like that? What do you want from it? Is this the only way to get it? Do you only want it because you've been told to want it? These are the kinds of things you need to be asking yourselves, because the path to success is different for everybody. I know a lot of intelligent, mature, hardworking people who have a full-time job, a spouse, and kids, and as a result they're miserable and they don't know why. I really don't care if anybody here agrees or disagrees with what I have to say here. I just want you to understand and consider what you're really getting yourself into before you pursue things like long-term monogamy, because most people don't.

Not necessarily divorce, just less happiness/freedom in your life and more drama/boredom

If you think marriage sounds like a fantastic idea right now and you can "make it work," then be my guest :P

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say >_> Could you rephrase that?

Simply put, in the past if you didn't put in enough effort to preserve your marriage, there were consequences. There aren't any consequences anymore. Much less of an incentive to "make it work." Also, Noxx, even if you put in 100%, that's still only 50% of the issue.

Well it's pretty simple. My parents love each other very much because it's basically a master-slave relationship. My dad's the boss, and my mom knows it. And they're both very happy with that. And I have an awesome life, thanks to both of my parents. Same went for my grandparents. I don't believe it's possible to replicate what my parents have, and what they've given me; not in this day and age. That time has passed. It's actually pretty ironic that I'm the one preaching about poly and criticizing monogamy, when I've probably had the best childhood and family out of anyone else I know. I don't criticize marriage because of how my parents are or how they raised me; far from it. I criticize marriage because I'm just looking at the facts. I'm looking at the world of modern monogamy and acknowledging the way it actually works, even if it is unpleasant to do so, and regardless of my own biases (ex. my awesome parents and upbringing). And after being presented with the facts, it's pretty obvious to me that in this day and age, with society how it is now, long-term monogamy would be a terrible idea.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/mom-jeans/229048

The overall structure, rules, and expectations of monogamy and what constitutes a "healthy" relationship Social norms (see below) Our biology I hope you already know what I'll say regarding those topics, but if you really want me to be specific and elaborate, let me know. Are you trying to say that we are monogamous by nature? This is where drama comes from-- people who are bored with their lives and need something "exciting" to happen. But I don't see drama as a good thing. I have enough excitement in my life outside my relationships, and therefore any drama would negatively affect my overall happiness. So as a result, I avoid drama like the plague :P But if you're in a monogamous relationship, it's nearly impossible to avoid drama without threatening the relationship (another reason why I'm poly). Many people are afraid of ending their relationship (for various reasons which we discussed a few days ago), and as a result they'll learn to tolerate the all the shitty parts. Yuck-- count me out! Here's the big giant flaw in your argument which everyone seems to forget: The social norms have changed dramatically since then. People who have been happily married for a very long time (such as my own parents, who are nearing their 50th anniversary), stayed married because of social norms. Let's make a few quick comparisons: Old Monogamy Most marriages were master-slave relationships. The man said "jump," the wife jumped. Without hesitation. If a woman was divorced, besides suffering from the social stigmas, she was also screwed financially because she depended on her husband to support her. Premarital sex was rare. Sex was one of the main perks of marriage for men. Modern Monogamy In our modern, politically correct, post-feminism society, everyone is supposed to be treated "equally," and this is no different in relationships... Except a 50/50 monogamous relationship is impossible. One partner is often the dominant one, and the other is the submissive one. Some people actually enjoy being the submissive one, but society says that's a bad thing these days. If a woman gets divorced, instead of being chastised by her peers and screwed financially, she usually gets rewarded-- both socially ("good job dumping him! He didn't deserve you!") and financially (alimony). This alone is a HUGE reason for why marriage is such a terrible idea these days (for men, at least). Men and women can have sex all they want without getting married now. Men and women can be financially secure without getting married now.

Google it. The first page of results will all be along the lines of "humans are not monogamous by nature"

Well after some research, I think I'll be a tightwad and not buy a gym membership... and instead achieve my double bodyweight benchpress goal via gymnastics training. Apparently gymnasts who can do can easily bench press double their bodyweight without ever lifting weights in their life. Whereas people who can bench double their bodyweight are nowhere near capable of doing planche pushups. http://www.t-nation....A27-mcd02.hydra

Well men were never meant to be monogamous, period. Women, however, were supposed to be serial-monogamists for ~3 years at a time. Your argument seems to be that since monogamy has been around for so long, it's therefore a good thing... which, speaking of fallacies, brings this and this to mind. Additionally, human beings have been around for about 200,000 years and our biology hasn't really changed much since then. We've only been doing the whole monogamy thing for the past few thousand years or so. Biology stays the same, while social norms change (and often conflict with our obsolete brains). Let me know if I'm misunderstanding you, though. And yes, our brains weren't wired to say "Good job, you finished what you set out to do. You can now be happy for the rest of your life"-- we wouldn't be very productive as a species if that were the case. However, simply knowing that your brain works like that is enough to shift happiness in your favor. In my case, I'm completely satisfied with my life right now. I'm very happy with everything I have right now, from material possessions to friends and family. So when I set my goals, it's kind of funny because I know that they aren't going to make me any happier in the long run, but I work on them anyway because they're fun to do. This is different from people who think that happiness is always just out of reach from them, and they can have it once they do this, this, and that... and that once they get what they want, all of their other problems will magically disappear. And I don't think it's very realistic to try and maintain a healthy, exciting relationship with the same person for the rest of your life. There's way too many variables working against you to make that happen-- many of them beyond your control.

...you drive a Mustang too? High five!