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You know your arguements of pvm are just complete bs and i'm not even going to argue for it. The wilderness is first and foremost a place for dangerous pvp, and every decision made will be made based on what is good for it. Really, extremes allow a proper balance? balance in what? firstly, they are imbalanced in terms of combat level and risk, and secondly, they make the balance of DPS vs. LP dip over a scale of disastrous. If jagex wants the wilderness to have any sort of balance in the first place, they must remove at least some features, and extremes are a perfect example of where to start. If they, one day, decide to change things in that there would be a balance and herblore would become a combat skill, i'm happy to allow extremes, but until then, no. For fairness, you again talk about BS. Stats that are boosted are shown in your combat level, You effectively want them to be shown twice, or even three times. Prayer levels add to combat level, but herbore doesn't. End of story. Also, when talking about the chaos elemental, maybe jagex are adding the new drops to balance the new lack of extremes? Take 1 away, add 1, you still get the same number. Nothing is broken.

A) Balance should include all factors. If you balance a scale and toss a weight on one side, what do you know, it's not balanced anymore. It's been proven that Jagex can not imagine every way players use content, in a process known as "emergent gameplay." The best way for Jagex to get a complete picture of the imbalances is for every major factor to be involved in the picture. B) In the meantime, you are not favoring one group of players over another. Those who invested in smithing and quests are being favored over those who invested in herblore. Those who have done both only get the benefit of half of their efforts. By allowing extremes, you benefit both. C) If Jagex wants to continue drawing people into the Wilderness to use the wilderness alternatives, then adding penalties for using Wilderness spots is not a good idea. And removing Extreme Potions is exactly such a penalty. If Jagex decides Wilderness should be designed entirely for PvP, we really don't need Green Dragons, Hellhounds, Moss Giants, Greater Demons, Chaos Elemental, and whatever else out there. They're honestly just decorations that may annoy PKers out there and interfere with player-versus-player combat. On the other hand, if Jagex wants to continue to draw people into the Wilderness, the Abyss needs to be made better, Clue rewards need to compensate for the effort required in doing a Wilderness clue, and Jagex should not further limit people who could potentially choose to do something in the Wilderness. People who invested in herblore knew they don't work on pvp worlds, and might not work in the wilderness if it should come back. Thus it's not like taking candy away from a kid, as you are making us believe. As for pvm in the wilderness, you know that there was pvm before october 09, right? Most of the people who do pvm in the wilderness don't have extremes anyway, and the only boss that suffers is unpopular anyway(you can currently use anything you want on him, and the risk is much lower, but still, nobody kills it). Attack levels are already reflected on your combat level, so there is no reason to consider attack twice because you like herblore. The fact is, extreme potions do not affect combat level and don't add risk, and no matter how much bs you can put up, it's not going to change. Claws are balanced in terms of risk, rigor is reflected in combat levels, thus both are balanced. How hard is this to understand, really? B_ryan, how is anyone getting punished? Did you train the levels to get an edge in the wilderness? guess what, unless you got 1-96 herblore in the two days they were allowed, you are talking BS. People who have trained their herblore knew it would not give them an advantage in dangerous pvp, thus there is nothing to complain about.

Soma, you know your arguments are BS. The fact is, apart from the hunter area food(which aren't that much better than other food) and extremes, other combat related abilities are balanced. Thus, when deciding upon which abilities to remove in order to make the system better, extremes are the first that anyone should come up with.

We allow Turmoil. We don't allow Extremes. That's inherently unfair, and balance isn't a valid excuse when the system is already completely imbalanced, and proper balance could be achieved many other ways. Yeah...extremes were allowed for around a day until people realized they were bad for the wilderness... Turmoil is allowed because you need 96 prayer levels to use it. That in term reflects on your combat level. The same is true for rigor and augury. Is herblore reflected in combat levels? Does using extremes carry higher risk? thank you.

Curses in themselves require prayer level to use, which, evidently, gives you a higher combat level. The boost in combat ability is reflected on your combat level. Hand cannons are risked when you go into the wilderness, thus they are balanced with that. With extremes, you have something that boosts your combat ability, is not reflected in combat level and carries no risk. Now when you know that the wilderness is completely unbalanced in terms of DPS vs. LP, what changes would you make? Realistically, only extremes come up as a great example because they are not balanced and reflect on every combat class near equally. As for 80% of people not wanting extremes not having them...oh please. Even the biased poll doesn't reflect that, and most of my high level friends happy to come back for pking don't want them either. Why? because there is no reason to make the wilderness restricted to 96 herblore and 1 itemers. Banning extremes is very GOOD for those that have extremes, as there will be more people in the wilderness and the fights will reflect on a persons abilities. Allowing them, however, would be only good for pvm in the wilderness. I honestly can't see any other good things about extremes in the wilderness.

Both overloads and extremes are discussed here. It'd be stupid to discuss them separately. The difference in absorption for 470 and 500 max hit is below 1%, so it can be not considered. If you are smart and use the right style, no absorption will be used. Yes, you can bore me with the whole averages argument(which is stupid to bring up here), but that doesn't delete the notion that the whip is a better overall weapon and claws are only good for specials, also that the potions work for all weapons. As long as they have the money to buy the level, there's nothing keeping them from using one. Just like everything in this game. Maybe spirit shields should be banned from the wilderness because they cost a lot of money. Or turmoil, that costs quite a few bucks too. Spirit shields carry risk, prayer adds to combat level. Any good examples, or are you just using the stupid ones every moron can and has thought of? As for the reasons for not wanting extremes when you have them, it has been stated before, no need to exclude everyone who doesn't have them and make wilderness only luck based.

Claws actually cost nothing to use. The numbers were a result of max hit calculator and general dps calculator for super potions against extremes. Damage absorption works for both normal and extreme potions, and the overall reduction is likewise for both. Also, the potion boost works for everything all the time. Do claws hit higher than whip every time all the time? Also, when you consider extremes, you can assume overloads.

30 additional damage might look little, but you also have to consider the boost for attack. The overall DPS boost is over 10%, which is huge. For reference, the DPS boost for damage alone is 6/8/6 % for melee/range/mage. I'm not even mentioning a large portion of people who will be excluded from the wilderness because of this, and the fact that you need to redo combat levels.

You still haven't answered to my first question, if they want to ban extremes, why don't they ban ALL potions ? The outcome will be even better. Do you understand the notion of a balanced system? without any potions, KO potential would be very low and the wilderness wouldn't be dangerous. As normal potions are accessible to everyone, they are balanced, and as they fit the balance of dps vs. lp very well, there is no reason to ban them. Also, if you ask why just extreme potions should be the exceptions, i honestly have no idea, but they fit the bill of unbalanced items VERY well, so are a good choice to make an exception for. As said, if they were allowed, herblore MUST become a combat skill(which wouldn't also go down with alot of people, but there is no good solution to the problem anyway).

I think it's VERY stupid to even begin to compare the pvm and pvp capabilities in the wilderness. The wilderness is the only dangerous pvp area, while the monsters in the wilderness are very insignificant(most are in other places aswell, like green dragons) and the only boss that would suffer is the chaos elemental, which is a very unpopular and low level boss anyway. It's easy to state that the wilderness is pvp first and foremost, with pvm being slightly relevant. Thus, decisions upon the wilderness should be pvp based, and that's what people here are doing. The fact that you want to blow up smoke and make pvm in the wilderness important is already stupid enough, making decisions based upon it is even worse. If you personally don't like the solution, too bad, but it's clear to see the benefits for a large amount of people will have because of how jagex decided it was going to be(wilderness isn't excluded to high herblore, herblore doesn't have to affect combat level, there is a balance between dps and lp in the wilderness).

We don't need fair, we need balanced. I assume that lower DPS is a good thing o.O It's not really that easy. If there were no 1 or 2 hit spec weapons and chaotic weapons, extremes would be fine in the wilderness. If we had armor that would absorb significant damage, or cheap armor that would add lp, the balance would, again, be there. But the fact is, with current balanced items out there(items balanced by risk and and combat/quest requirements), extremes would be absolutely lethal to the balance. If we, one day, have extremes allowed in the wilderness, they should absolutely be balanced by adding to combat level.

Clearly a reply by someone unaware of the market. Do you think this crash would be happening if free trade wasn't coming? Kind of hard to put 1 and 1 together... I was just saying that 10b street price for a Blue Phat is ridiculous and was only that much because the lack of the phat price being a to fluctuate. Which led to hoarders/manipulators, basically Phats were like a never ending manipulation item, because they updated so slowly and had limited quantity. Also, considering it would be impossible to trade 10B GP for a blue phat with or without the trade limit. If there wasn't free trade they would most likely still be rising, and of course they'll always be rising, but on a free market, I don't think a blue Phat rareness has achieved 10B. Under the old market climate, a blue partyhat was absolutely worth 10b+ street price. Under the new(upcoming) market climate, the prices can't be compared, as the items have different functions. That's basically what people need to understand.

We don't need fair, we need balanced.

Basically, what this thread boils down to is two communities and one odd person. One community has worked for ovl/extremes and wants the benefits of them in the wilderness, the other community has or hasn't worked for ovl/extremes but doesn't see them being good for the wilderness, and the one odd person argues every stupid line just because and thinks the wilderness should be a pvm heaven. What i don't understand, is how people don't understand the negative effects the potions would bring- firstly, they aren't reflected in ones combat level, so pking without them would be pointless. The wilderness would effectively be excluded for those who have extremes, which isn't good for anyone(less people). Secondly, as we have evidenced for a few years now and jagex has just recently, the amount of lp and healing doesn't match the DPS modern weapons are designed to bring. For the large majority of the items that are responsible for the extreme DPS, they are balanced in terms of risk or higher combat level, but the potions are in no way balanced while offering a significant boost to DPS. Thus, as a way of keeping the balance, until we have something that can balance the added DPS out, the potions should be kept out of the wilderness. 2-hit rushing is already bad enough, do we really want to walk around the wilderness with prayers on constantly, because getting 2 hit is more than easy? And yes, i'm aware that there is one person who will cry about not being able to have fun at chaos elemental just because his beloved potions are disallowed, but sometimes, tough sacrifices have to be made for the good of many, instead of a few.

Overloads allow you to use brews instead of food, effectively tripling the amount of food you can bring and the fact that the stats don't degrade offers an advantage over supers aswell(as you'd be fighting at 116-117 most of the time). Realistically, overloads give you 9 str/def/attack, 12 range and 7 mage in one inventory spot and allow you to use brews, which would be disastrous to most fights.

When you die with chaotics, you lose them, so they are balanced by risk. Extremes aren't balanced in any way. Well, if you consider claws, korasi, hand cannon and dark bow, there is no single set or armor that will keep you from being 2 hit, even with eating, but for divine, which we can ignore. There is a fine line between dangerous and outright ridiculous, and i think allowing extremes would cross that line.

But that wold take all the credibility out of the OP for creating a poll to make fun of people who can think of the bigger picture, not just personal gains. Loaded polls :thumbsup: Soma, nobody will be using maximum defense in the wilderness, particularly with extremes. It's stupid to contemplate on people bringing stuff worth over 50m to the wilderness. Max def in wildy will be barrows armor, with most people still using rune/mystic/black hide. When ahrims came out, people used it in the wilderness right away(just like whips and w/e else not worth 600m). Max offense is EXTREMELY easy to achieve, or to approach(in terms of risk).

Again, the biggest reason isn't that it doesn't affect combat level(although they should if they are allowed), but that they would effectively kill pvp combat in that DPS will be times higher than what you can heal, resulting in everything about wildy being about luck. So why remove extremes? Why not remove all special attacks and all items with level requirements above 60? Or how about a flat damage reduction? Any damage you do to other players is reduced by 50%, period. Other games have used this to solve issues where strong enemies have many times the health of players, so what is acceptable DPS against monsters is not acceptable against players. If jagex can fix the problems, sure, i can see extremes being a vital part of the wilderness, assuming they also give combat levels. Unless they can do that(and i haven't seen anything yet), removing extremes from the wilderness is an easy solution to the problem.

Again, the biggest reason isn't that it doesn't affect combat level(although they should if they are allowed), but that they would effectively kill pvp combat in that DPS will be times higher than what you can heal, resulting in everything about wildy being about luck.

People with 90 str don't, >95% of the time, fight people with 99 str(atleast with melee), and at the same time, there is no reason to pk with supers when you know your opponent can use overloads or extremes, so there is no disadvantage. I can easily see people getting killed by two straight KS specs, with ext str and turmoil(1.5k max damage). Big portion, really? as far as i can see(and i know you can give me a list of monsters noone will ever bother to kill in the wilderness) the only monster there is chaos elemental.

Ok...food isnt cmb related either Everyone can use food, can't they? If extremes are allowed in the wilderness there clearly needs to some combat levels added for herblore.

I think you mean your point, not the point. Most of the people want extremes for pvp combat. It's a valid point, but as MH-ing in the wilderness isn't particularly popular, i can't see this being a problem. Oww, i can see the intelligence in your post. Making the wilderness a complete ****shoot of 1 item spec restore guys is clearly what we need. Clearly, all the stupid skillers that think they can pk and having extremes will make them divine in the wilderness. Wake up, extremes wouldn't give an advantage to anyone, but would be a disadvantage to alot of people.

Do not allow, because lp and food can't catch up to the dps(same reason jagex are now adding damage absorption and lp boosting gear). Also, to any moron saying they want them allowed because they can use them(and i had 99 herblore before free trade was banished), what's the point? If jagex allows extremes/overloads, nobody without them would even consider pking and everyone would just get the levels. Extremes don't give anyone an advantage, rather would exclude people and make pking ALOT more luck based.

The knock on playing the game properly to get points is that you can lose points, which means you will go backwards if you aren't particularly good or experienced at the game. By suiciding you can allow two people to gain the only meaningful reward(deflector) in alot less time(1000->1250 from someone with 1250 takes like half an hour) without having to delve deep into the mechanics of a louzy(at best) minigame. That said, with free trade, i can see people selling their points for cash, which will be a good option if you can trust the person.

I have no idea on how the topic popped on the first page for me... sorry for bumping.