Artificial_Doom_Flavor

It gives 15 crafting xp/fire, but the actual molding of the pot (which takes about half as much time) gives 18 xp. The clay, of course, has to be mined again and bowls filled with water... #-o This makes my head hurt.

I suppose the disclaimer that Jagex is not responsible for your kids going on their website isn't adequate, nor is their claim on Runescape gold as the company's property that is by law not to be bought or sold for real world money; nor are parents accountable for allowing their child unrestricted access to the internet, preventing them from creating fraudulent credit cards, or raising their kids not to take risks they cannot afford to take; nor are kids accountable for their actions which they DO understand the full consequences of yet choose to engage in anyway. I would think that even if someone attempted to sue Jagex, they would neither be legally nor ethically obligated to take the step that they did (I am assuming "ethics" to mean the principles by which most rational societies currently operate).

If by ruined you mean made affordable for smiths like me then yes ^_^ Merging the F2P and P2P economies has led to a drastic reduction in death and nature rune pricing as well as almost infinite availability. This was a great idea.

That is the question. I make clay bowls to gain crafting experience, you see; would it be faster simply to drop the unfinished bowls, or should I fire them (which is a horribly slow process)?

You can keep saying that "Joe" offers for a higher price over and over, but that doesn't make it true. Joe is just as free to offer as a lower price as the goldfarming firm is. The logical structure of the argument above boils down to "Joe offers at a higher price, because the goldfarming company offers more cheaply, because Joe has to offer at a higher price." Pssst, you may not have realized this, but that's circular logic. That means it's wrong. Not to mention, your paragraph above has nothing whatsoever to do with the Grand Exchange, if it were true it would have applied since the invention of runescape. It's more along the lines of "Joe offers at a higher price because he wants to; goldfarming company lowers to sell faster; Joe lowers his price, cycle continues, Joe might sell but gives up sooner or later." I think that makes sense, correct me if I'm wrong. Let's assume for the sake of argument that I am wrong; that Joe is willing lower his prices indefinitely outside of the Grand Exchange, will eventually sell his goods for a price to his satisfaction, and will then continue to accumulate those resources. Of course that happens (people still mine rune essence), but with the Grand Exchange neither party any longer gains any advantage once they lower their price to a certain level. But who has the numbers now? And who sells first? Regardless of whether it's the person selling the most or the fewest items of a given variety, Joe has been trumped either way. I don't think I need to explain how. Keep in mind that a goldfarmer wants gold; waiting another day or two for a little extra profit is not preferable to simply going and accumulating more resources. Accumulating as much gold as possible in the shortest period of time is the prime directive. Actually you did call me an [wagon]. More accurately, you created a logical statement of the form "If X, than go ahead make an [wagon] out of yourself", where X was obviously something you were claiming was true. Anyways, someone calling me an [wagon] just because I point out a logical insufficiency in their argument isn't something I consider a game, and I couldn't care less about you quoting Willy Wonka. Wrong, sir! Wrong! Under section 37B of the contract signed by him, it states quite clearly that all offers shall become null and void if - and you can read it for yourself in this photostatic copy - "I, the undersigned, shall forfeit all rights, privileges, and licenses herein and herein contained," et cetera, et cetera..."Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum," et cetera, et cetera..."Memo bis punitor delicatum!" It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal! You stole fizzy lifting drinks. You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get nothing! For all practical intents and purposes, it is anonymous. I cannot tell who I am buying from, for one thing. For another, I think it unlikely that Jagex will have the time or resources to investigate every GE sale of goldfarmed resources now that they can seamlessly blend into a sea of legit sellers. They could do it before, but now they can do it instantly and with much smaller quantities of resources. I think you can agree that it is more difficult to sell 300 yew logs for the same price as 30000 yew logs without the GE. This is of course drawing from my own personal experience of cutting yews for money, then attempting to sell in a market world: fletchers and the like wanted huge numbers of logs, not a few hundred, and even those selling for a slightly higher price sold theirs first because they had a much larger number. If goldfarmers do see the GE as this sort of opportunity and Jagex has anticipated this, we may very well be looking at the greatest scheme to catch and destroy them in the history of the game. Time will tell. Goldfarmers are actually quite beneficial to my PKing hybrid account, who slays them for rune ore. That aside, they choke woodcutters, coal miners, essence miners, rune miners, lobster fishermen, runecrafters, and numerous other folks who skill for money. I don't support drastic measures to stop goldfarmers if it comes at a cost to us, but nor do I support the implementation of something so exploitable as this unless there is some clear indication that the problem has been either considered or dealt with.

Your definition of "throwing money" is "a company who uses its time, and it's employees time, to work toward a reasonable solution to a problem"? The 300m$ figure was thrown out only to point out that you should be careful when you're criticizing an enormous software company (software company definition : a company that survives on creating solutions to problems :D ) I'm being entirely careless because I got owned. Fine. I remain curious in regard to your last point, though: What if the problem is paying you? Goldfarmers do have p2p accounts; is there really an incentive to do anything about them? I don't know of anyone who would quit rs just because of goldfarmers. If they chose to implement a flag/investigate system like what I described, that's a problem for jagex to worry about and we really can't speculate as to whether or not it can be effective based on the scale of the game. (obviously the old system doesn't work, it's an artifact from runescape classic implemented when the game had 10k players online max) According to Wiki (unfortunately no other sources), Jagex has around 400 employees; if there were some kind of investigator, it would likely have to be automated.

It's fine when they have other opinions, provided they actually took the time to look over and reasonably rebuke some of the (occasionally ridiculous) things I say, as several posters have done. There are some, however, who do not. That's frustrating. Agreed. Just to clear this up: I love the Grand Exchange. I have my steel bars and natures and gold bars bought and my runite sold and my necklaces alched and... Yeah, it's great! I love it! But I'd like some kind of disclosure here. What is Jagex doing? And does it hurt to be aware of the possibilities that an update of this magnitude brings? Junk food for thought. I mumble a lot at times, but this is one of those rare occasions where I really am concerned about this sort of thing. Entirely inoffensive.

you're really grasping at straws here. if they stopped this, then all a macroer would have to do is create a text file with unrelatable names and pull from that while creating accounts. seriously, what person would NOT be able to avoid this security you're proposing. What good would it do? how would preventing "remarkably similar names" be any kind of reasonable solution or long term fix for macroing? I didn't say this was a long-term fix. It's simply a pattern that continues to be exploited, and it is entirely unnecessary that this should be so! If it slows them down and doesn't harm the legit players, then do it, for God's sake, and keep people from having to generate accounts with ridiculous numbers attached to them. Yes, I am wrong to assume that their detection system is awful. I based that assumption entirely on my frustration with seeing bots and farmers day in and day out. Dumb. On the other hand, it is equally unsound to assume that a problem goes away because money is thrown at it... And has it gone away? Has it? Of course I don't have a right to tell them what to do. I do, however, have a right to complain when I as the consumer am promised something to my satisfaction and do not receive it, or if I do receive it, but it comes at great cost to myself or others. I would in truth be happier if JaGeX just came out and said that this is too big a problem for them to handle as things stand and handed some of the reins to players for once (not me, before you say anything). Offhand, if I made or helped to make a game... It wouldn't be an MMO. One pure woodcutter selling items at GE, One macroer selling items at GE flag both of their accounts for investigation. Ban one. A little iffier. We're not dealing with small numbers of accounts.

But here's the problem: One person doesn't have to do the selling now. Every goldfarmer can now go to the GE and post their goods. Instead of one account selling a hundred thousand yews, you now have a thousand accounts selling a hundred yews. See what I'm saying? They don't even have to do it at the same time.

The problem is there is no longer a need for trades of large amounts of resources to a single account for sales; the peons that harvest the resources are now themselves the sellers, and there is no need for the gold to be pooled and traded until it must be sold. If I remember right, one of your solutions to this particular problem was to instantly ban rather than flag the offender once this sort of trade does finally appear, which I agree with. Farmers could, say, cut a couple hundred yews, which is reasonable for normal players, then return to woodcutting while waiting for the sale. They don't HAVE to amass huge numbers anymore. Is there any reasonable way you can think of that would distinguish a pure woodcutter from a wc goldfarmer when it comes to sales at the GE?

sorry, pc ruined the game with its introduction. How, I'm at a loss here. F2P + PC Product from P2P = ? While I'm on that note, F2P Wilderness + Agility = ? lol ur not making much sense urself mate. :lol: Allowing Agility and PC Products into the F2P greatly unbalanced the free game's wilderness.

Good interface. Shiny interface. Pretty interface. I like.

Ok. I am. I think it's great. But I had to rant about the irony in it. No, I haven't a doubt that Jagex has something implemented, but it's important to discern between "Advanced" and "Effective." After years of experience battling with macroers, Jagex still allows the creation of accounts with a basic name followed by a sequence of numbers in rapid succession. That smacks to me of either deliberate negligence or incompetence. Track gold all you want, but if Jagex isn't willing to monitor something as basic as account generation with remarkably similar names, they have no right to be talking about stopping goldfarming "at the source." Let's not forget that "goldfarmer" does not necessarily mean "bot." Many goldfarmers are actual people working for firms. In these instances, it is nigh impossible to track sales individual farmers make. By the time you find them and lock their accounts, they've already given the gold to their supervisor. Just today I saw one of their "trading trails." Level 3s, no ranked stats, wordlessly trading between themselves, banking, and logging out. Even if it were trackable, this approach clearly works as I have seen it used countless times before at Edgeville banks in desolate worlds.

I was new; I followed my friend around, not knowing where I was going, and we went to the wild, where I got 0wnnz00r3d by those nasty level 20 wizards. That was back when Earth Strike actually sounded scary.

This is absolute nonsense. Anyone can undercut anyone else's prices. Wanna know how? It's a nice little trick I call "lowering your price". Just because the goldfarming firm has more goods coming in than one trader, doesn't mean that they can charge less per log. I can charge .0001 per log. If you're talking about what we're willing to sell at, well we both want to get as much as possible for each log, no matter how many we have coming in. Your point is so incoherent that it doesn't deserve to be called a point, which is why you spray out insults much faster than you summon up ideas. Yes, I am talking about the price we're willing to sell at. Yes, both parties do want a maximum profit. But the point is that a goldfarmer who lowers his prices has lost little in comparison to Joe, who put personal time into getting his goods; he may still sell his items, but if he gets peanuts for his effort and has to spend a longer amount of time just to get his goods sold in the first place, he has to ask himself if he's going to try again, and most likely the answer is no. And yes, numbers do matter. A goldfarming firm can easily fill the demand of the hungriest steel smiths, while Joe offers a drop in the bucket for a higher price. No contest. If you're going to interpret what I say literally, by all means go ahead; make an [wagon] of yourself. I'm pretty sure calling people [wagon] is much more assish than interpreting what you say literally. Especially because I'm right, and you are not. Did I call you an [wagon]? No. You took the bait. If you want to play this game, though, I will be forced to start throwing irrelevant Willy Wonka quotes at you.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TRANSFER OF THE GOLD ITSELF. THIS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH GOLDFARMERS' IMPACT ON THE ECONOMY AND HOW THE GREAT EXCHANGE FACILITATES THE SALES OF GOLDFARMER-ACQUIRED GOODS, WHICH IS IRONIC CONSIDERING THE PURPOSE OF JAGEX'S RECENT ACTIONS. I hate posting in caps. I really do. But it so very irks me that my points get missed entirely. Aside from that, I can assure you that goldfarmers still have very little trouble in transferring their gold to customers; why do you think Cheating-Website-That-Must-Not-Be-Named.Org continues to thrive? Despite already mentioning this, I should have added that beyond easier sales, goldfarmers now have far less to fear from detection systems when selling goods (not to mention no longer have to sell in bulk from one account but instead can sell smaller amounts of goods from many accounts far more easily than making multiple forum posts in broken English). If you don't want to read my posts, then stop leaving snarky replies. I've already explained why that was a valid point. I love the Grand Exchange, to be perfectly honest, but this is the sort of thing I just can't help but notice. Goldfarming strikes a particularly bad chord with me.

Yeah...i kinda fail to see how autoers benefit from this. someone explain pl0x? Two words: Market saturation. There are a few hundred "people" out there selling the same thing you are for the same (or a lower) price at the GE: what are the chances, in light of this, that you will be able to sell? While this is true of anything you're trading along with normal players, it holds especially true for items such as yews, coal, or lobster when you factor in goldfarmers. Right, they've got it under control, just like they've got the few thousand tan-shirted green-pantsed cyborgs I see running around the willows and yews every day under control. I think it goes without saying that cheaters- especially paid ones- will consistently finds ways to be ahead of JaGeX's detection measures. And again, tracing a single massive trade is easy, but what about several thousand small trades? Not happening. Wow...I never viewed it like this, and i beleive this is one of the most valid points I've seen. Gratz on putting the pieces together, but boy do i hope your wrong... It would be a valid point, except that he still forgot that you can arrange a private PK to transfer money. If JaGeX limits Wilderness kills to 3k every 15 minutes, people WILL leave in droves.

I'd bet that they've got some pretty funky detection in place to actually help detect bots better using GE. I am certain that they would have considered this effect. This detection seems to consist so far of a ridiculous number of random events (observed in another thread). If sophisticated color clickers have been written for operating the GE (which I suspect they already have, and will grow in sophistication as the days go by), then there isn't much JaGeX could presumably do in the way of detection.

If you're going to interpret what I say literally, by all means go ahead; make an [wagon] of yourself. What I mean should be fairly clear: Goldfarming firms have the ability to get lots of goods in short amounts of time. They can undercut the average Joe's prices simply because of raw bulk; for every gold they lose by cutting their prices by one, they already have ten more in goods seconds later to make up for it. Average Joe has only himself accumulating the goods; although he puts time and effort into getting them, he desires a certain amount of gold in exchange for these items in order for the task to have been worth his while. But when he isn't the one controlling prices for an item goldfarmers can consistently saturate the market with at nearly a price of their choosing, he loses out. He has to either lower his prices even more or simply stop pursuing his method of moneymaking altogether. You might ask, "what makes this any different from the way things were before?" First, people can recognize a goldfarmer in market worlds, making them easier to both avoid and report. Second, the price controls in place will allow a goldfarmer to consistently sell his mass goods at the minimum price, while Joe is going to struggle to get the price he wants. Finally (and most damning), goldfarmers no longer necessarily have to sell all of their goods from a single account; rather, they can use all of their accounts at once to sell items, then transfer any funds they get later (this also negates the goldfarmers' problem of the possibility of the Grand Exchange considering only the smallest of item offers first). I'll be honest with you: I can't see any possible solutions to this at all at the moment other than to stop the Exchange entirely, which clearly is out of the question.

sorry, pc ruined the game with its introduction. How, I'm at a loss here. F2P + PC Product from P2P = ? While I'm on that note, F2P Wilderness + Agility = ?

JaGeX destroyed staking in the name of preventing real world traders from selling their ill-gotten goods. Yet, with the inception of the Grand Exchange, JaGeX has suddenly provided the goldfarming business with a convenient means of selling massive amounts of items quickly and anonymously, for less than the average Joe can afford to sell. A lack of foresight? Spite? Or just sheer idiocy? You decide.

Runite ores are 12.5k each! I can mine a happy man.

Are you allowed to have more than one account logged into SEPARATE worlds simultaneously, never interacting with one another?

This is what RuneScape is SUPPOSED to look like.

I CHOOSE YOU! WOLPERTINGER!