Obviously, the availability of weapons is not the cause of extreme violence. But it is a condition for it. I don't understand what is so hard to get about this logic: make it harder to obtain a gun and you will have less accidents. Of course there will always be people who do get their hands on the weapons and of course you need to take actions against the root of the violence as well. But removing a condition for it, is a first and -in comparison with getting to the core of the problem- a quite uncomplicated step in lowering the violence.

 

 

 

I don't get this distorted logic about (lack of) freedom when it comes to owning weapons. Having a gun, doesn't make you free. Not being able to buy a gun as you would buy vegetables is not the same as lack of freedom.

Well said :thumbsup:

 

Someone will still have a stupid argument though i reckon -.-

A ban of guns would really be nice. After all, what are guns used for?

 

Ppl buy them to protect themselves from other ppl with guns, or to attack other people. Guns are pointless really.

 

I guess there is still ppl who will want guns to hunt, and kill innocent animals for no reason... Maybe just leave hunting guns, and stop selling all the guns that are made to kill other people. Haha I bet the criminals wont be feeling very james bond wielding their ugly hunting guns \

 

 

 

And if such ban would happen, the government would need some consistent measures to prevent the import of blk market guns. They would better take their responsabilities, the government is an expert at doing nothing.

 

 

 

Imagine if we did that, and made having a gun illegal. In the usa, theres 10 000 murders made with guns every year. Imagine how drastically that number would drop.

 

 

 

A gun ban can only do some good.

apparently, no one has heard of prohibition.

 

 

 

Hey, lets ban alchohol, that's sure to reduce crime. :roll:

 

banning guns would have an even worse effect.

Yeah, because guns are a physically addictive drug enjoyed by the majority of adults when socialising.

apparently, no one has heard of prohibition.

 

 

 

Hey, lets ban alchohol, that's sure to reduce crime. :roll:

 

banning guns would have an even worse effect.

Oh yeh, alot of people like a nice quiet drink

 

they must like a nice shooting aswell :-s

Yeah, because guns are a physically addictive drug enjoyed by the majority of adults when socialising.

 

 

 

I think he meant that the underground trade of firearms and mafia business and the general anarchy that ensured would be comparable to the Prohibition.

 

 

 

 

A ban on weapons WILL help, but only if that law is enforced! You can't just say "don't do that", you have to enforce. I think the government (e.a. the police) should be the monopolist where fire arms and violence is concerned.

 

 

 

You are insane, right? Do you not realize how many men died in the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 to prevent that very thing from happening?

 

 

 

I agree with tighter gun laws, but the outright outlawing of firearms (with a government monopoly, no less!) is perhaps the most frightening thing I have ever heard. Thomas Paine once said "The People should not fear their government. Instead, the Government should fear it's people."

Lol o_O barihawk has a point. That wud make the government have total control over us. Uhm, well they already have total control over us... They're using subtile ways instead, to convince ppl to vote for them. After that, they do whatever they want.

apparently, no one has heard of prohibition.

 

 

 

Hey, lets ban alchohol, that's sure to reduce crime. :roll:

 

banning guns would have an even worse effect.

 

 

 

in holland we very rarely have shootings. and if there are its mostly between 2 drugs dealers and other criminals almsot no innocents involved. also the last school shootouts was a few years ago. so banning guns does help. and also do you realy compare alchohol to guns? thats like saying you kil people on a regular basis while you are drinking

apparently, no one has heard of prohibition.

 

 

 

Hey, lets ban alchohol, that's sure to reduce crime. :roll:

 

banning guns would have an even worse effect.

Oh yeh, alot of people like a nice quiet drink

 

they must like a nice shooting aswell :-s

 

 

 

yes, i very much enjoy shooting for sport, whether it be shooting clays or just target shooting with a .22

 

 

 

and yes, i meant the underground trade of firearms if they were to be banned, but in this sense, you CAN compare alcohol and firearms.

 

 

 

i go out and have a drink once in a while, but i'm not an alcoholic.

 

similarly, i shoot and hunt once in a while, but i'm not a mass murderer.

 

 

 

while guns may not be a physically addicting drugs, there are other forms of addiction, someone who is mentally disturbed could be classified as physcologically addicted.

apparently, no one has heard of prohibition.

 

 

 

Hey, lets ban alchohol, that's sure to reduce crime. :roll:

 

banning guns would have an even worse effect.

 

 

 

in holland we very rarely have shootings. and if there are its mostly between 2 drugs dealers and other criminals almsot no innocents involved. also the last school shootouts was a few years ago. so banning guns does help. and also do you realy compare alchohol to guns? thats like saying you kil people on a regular basis while you are drinking

 

 

 

read my last post please. who said that i kill people with my guns? is that the only thing you can do with a gun is kill? if i'm not mistaken sport shooting is an olympic sport.

I don't get this distorted logic about (lack of) freedom when it comes to owning weapons. Having a gun, doesn't make you free. Not being able to buy a gun as you would buy vegetables is not the same as lack of freedom.

 

 

 

The logic is defense. If you make guns harder to get, then who will have them illegally? Criminals. And this will give criminals a major advantage, they can just shoot shoot shoot and shoot and no one can defend themselves.

Hey, lets ban alchohol, that's sure to reduce crime. :roll:

 

banning guns would have an even worse effect.

 

 

 

Can you make a proper firearm at your own house with incredients woth like 1$? No. Do they cause physical addiction? No. Can they be used wisely? Yes, that's why I mentioned the permission thing.

 

 

 

And Barihawk your forefathers might have fought for it, but remember there also was an opposite to them and times do change. People also fought for Bolshevism in Russia, died for it and also got the victory.

Hey, lets ban alchohol, that's sure to reduce crime. :roll:

 

banning guns would have an even worse effect.

 

 

 

Can you make a proper firearm at your own house with incredients woth like 1$? No. Do they cause physical addiction? No. Can they be used wisely? Yes, that's why I mentioned the permission thing.

 

 

 

I know people who made a bomb out of a pop bottle, took them like half an hour and maybe $20.

Hey, lets ban alchohol, that's sure to reduce crime. :roll:

 

banning guns would have an even worse effect.

 

 

 

Can you make a proper firearm at your own house with incredients woth like 1$? No. Do they cause physical addiction? No. Can they be used wisely? Yes, that's why I mentioned the permission thing.

 

 

 

And Barihawk your forefathers might have fought for it, but remember there also was an opposite to them and times do change. People also fought for Bolshevism in Russia, died for it and also got the victory.

 

You can't make a gun in your own home but if there were to be a ban on all guns, you would have a much easier time getting guns from underground sources. It would be like drugs. There is a ban on drugs but you have drug dealers who illegally supply the drugs to the addicts. If there were a ban on guns, you would have gun dealers who illegally supply guns to the murderers. The guns would be passed down a chain. From the creators all the way down to the dealers.

You can't make a gun in your own home but if there were to be a ban on all guns, you would have a much easier time getting guns from underground sources. It would be like drugs. There is a ban on drugs but you have drug dealers who illegally supply the drugs to the addicts. If there were a ban on guns, you would have gun dealers who illegally supply guns to the murderers. The guns would be passed down a chain. From the creators all the way down to the dealers.

 

 

 

Yes, they would go for the blackmarket. However that's a lot less dangerous than them being an every-man-right to have. It has worked well in other countries like in Finland, Sweden, Iceland and the Netherlands.

 

 

 

And Viktorum, there's a certain difference: that kind of a bomb can't be used the same way as firearms, it might also be dangerous for the creator itself and no normal human has a reason to make a bomb. It's not like alcohol which can be slowly created without any special knowledge (hell I knew how at the age of 13 and without internet), it can't harm anyone else and isn't any more dangerous than the alcohol bought from a store. I bet the amount of homemade bombs wouldn't dramatically rise even if guns were forbitten. Btw I was never for total ban, I was just for putting them under a permission system.

You can't make a gun in your own home but if there were to be a ban on all guns, you would have a much easier time getting guns from underground sources. It would be like drugs. There is a ban on drugs but you have drug dealers who illegally supply the drugs to the addicts. If there were a ban on guns, you would have gun dealers who illegally supply guns to the murderers. The guns would be passed down a chain. From the creators all the way down to the dealers.

 

 

 

Yes, they would go for the blackmarket. However that's a lot less dangerous than them being an every-man-right to have. It has worked well in other countries like in Finland, Sweden, Iceland and the Netherlands.

 

 

 

And Viktorum, there's a certain difference: that kind of a bomb can't be used the same way as firearms, it might also be dangerous for the creator itself and no normal human has a reason to make a bomb. It's not like alcohol which can be slowly created without any special knowledge (hell I knew how at the age of 13 and without internet), it can't harm anyone else and isn't any more dangerous than the alcohol bought from a store. I bet the amount of homemade bombs wouldn't dramatically rise even if guns were forbitten. Btw I was never for total ban, I was just for putting them under a permission system.

 

The point is that by banning guns, you're infringing the rights of those who would not use them in illegal ways whereas you don't really do anything for the criminals except force them to break more laws to do something that they're determined to do. In all honesty, it may make things worse. Criminals may have an easier time at getting deadlier guns on the underground market than they would getting a normal handgun in a store.

The point is that by banning guns, you're infringing the rights of those who would not use them in illegal ways whereas you don't really do anything for the criminals except force them to break more laws to do something that they're determined to do. In all honesty, it may make things worse. Criminals may have an easier time at getting deadlier guns on the underground market than they would getting a normal handgun in a store.

 

 

 

Please answer to my question: Why has it worked and is currently working in other countries? I've already named countries like that in this thread few times and even posted some official rates.

 

 

 

edit: And why don't criminals get better guns in other countries? Are your boarders leaking more than Windows Vista?

Please answer to my question: Why has it worked and is currently working in other countries? I've already named countries like that in this thread few times and even posted some official rates.

 

 

 

edit: And why don't criminals get better guns in other countries? Are your boarders leaking more than Windows Vista?

 

 

 

Because chances are, those countries aren't as big and as diverse as the US.

 

 

 

And yes, the border control is pretty crappy.

The point is that by banning guns, you're infringing the rights of those who would not use them in illegal ways whereas you don't really do anything for the criminals except force them to break more laws to do something that they're determined to do. In all honesty, it may make things worse. Criminals may have an easier time at getting deadlier guns on the underground market than they would getting a normal handgun in a store.

 

 

 

Please answer to my question: Why has it worked and is currently working in other countries? I've already named countries like that in this thread few times and even posted some official rates.

 

 

 

edit: And why don't criminals get better guns in other countries? Are your boarders leaking more than Windows Vista?

 

Shadow answered your question for me. I do think that the number of murders with guns would drop immensely but I don't think the number of murders would drop. I would think that a murderer would just use a bat, a knife, or his own hands to do the killing. As for shootings like the one at Virginia Tech, they're the people who will use the underground market to get the guns.

 

 

 

Oh, and like Shadow said, border control sucks. Horribly.

Please answer to my question: Why has it worked and is currently working in other countries? I've already named countries like that in this thread few times and even posted some official rates.

 

 

 

edit: And why don't criminals get better guns in other countries? Are your boarders leaking more than Windows Vista?

 

 

 

Because chances are, those countries aren't as big and as diverse as the US.

 

 

 

And yes, the border control is pretty crappy.

 

 

 

yeah but when the government tries to keep illegal immigrants(and drugs/weapons/etc. that come with them) out, suddenly they're racist and denying people freedom.

 

 

 

i think the problem here is that there is no specifically defined problem that has answer x and answer y, there are a huge complex series of problems that all affect each other. people expect someone just to say "guns are banned" and magically all crime disappears.

Because chances are, those countries aren't as big and as diverse as the US.

 

 

 

And yes, the border control is pretty crappy.

 

 

 

Even combined together the rates are lower and school massacres are almost at zero.

yeah but when the government tries to keep illegal immigrants(and drugs/weapons/etc. that come with them) out, suddenly they're racist and denying people freedom.

 

Which is why our border control is embarrassingly bad.

It would be entirley impractical to ban guns in the US. Britain has always had very tight rules as applying to the provision of weaponry to its citizens, but the US has not, and this means there is a saturation of unrecorded or monitered guns in the USA. There is a massive supply that could not be removed easily, even if the shops stopped selling. Thus, by banning citizens from having guns, the criminals would find that they have a huge supply of weapons and a load of unarmed victims. Because the UK was strict from the begining, the same does not apply in the UK, as there is a strong anti-gun culture and supply of illegal arms is much more restricted.

 

A ban on weapons WILL help, but only if that law is enforced! You can't just say "don't do that", you have to enforce. I think the government (e.a. the police) should be the monopolist where fire arms and violence is concerned.

 

 

 

You are insane, right? Do you not realize how many men died in the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 to prevent that very thing from happening?

 

 

 

No I'm not insane. Ok, so I need to brush up on American war facts. I'm not american , so my knowledge of the american wars is at bit impaired. However, I trust my government with violence. Why don't americans? You chose your government through the democracy you like to preach in other "oppressed" countries, yet now you seem to admit that even the people you choose yourself are not to be trusted with violence.

 

 

 

I agree with tighter gun laws, but the outright outlawing of firearms.... Thomas Paine once said "The People should not fear their government. Instead, the Government should fear it's people."

 

 

 

My point exactly. I trust my goventment, thus allowing to have the "violence monopoly". Mr Paine obviously meant the government to be afraid of the democratic power of the people, NOT the amount of guns they carry. If nobody would have guns, what's there for me to protect from?

'The nation with the lowest crime rate on Earth is Switzerland. Every household is required by law to have at least one military issue assault rifle.'

 

 

 

as posted by barihawk i couple of pages back.

 

 

 

by word of law in England its actually illegal to not carry a sword while outside your home.

 

 

 

and to those people who say a ban on guns will just increase the number of stabbings etc, even the most trained people on the planet would be hard pressed to kill a large group of people with a knife, at least with knives you can outrun the attacker or conceivably fight back.