Your opinions on sex change?

[Kashi]

Well, I'm glad to see that the closed-minded don't totally outnumber the free thinking.

 

 

 

That Striker guy just made me mad. I was trying to stay on topic, and he had to make it personal. :(

[Bauke]

Well done for repeating exactly what you did in the other post :thumbsup:

 

 

That's because you haven't changed a single thing either.

 

 

How can you not see the link between suicide being illegal and changing your sex being legal. See you said "its their bodies they can do whatever the hell they want" I said "How come suicide is against the law then". If you can do whatever you want with your body (like you claim) how come suicide is illegal!

 

 

Because there's a difference between suicide and sex change? And we probably have different legislation here. Suicide is not against the law here. And I personally think there is something wrong with the law if you are not allowed to commit suicide. But I'm -once again- not commenting on this further, as it is offtopic.

 

 

 

 

Ok, what about the person Grim_Jokes mentioned earlier, does he/she feel better afterwards? NO. You don't have any proof that people recover from depression after a sex change, instead it just misdirects the depression and makes it worse.

 

 

Then such people did have a mental condition, instead of a medical one. Extensive medical research should ofcourse be done before allowing the surgery. Because logically there's also the possibility of disturbed people that have a mental illness. That however has nothing to do with the medical condition of being in the wrong body.

 

 

 

 

Oh right yeah its normal to have a sex change Bauke, everybody does it :thumbsup:

 

 

Read please. That's not quite what I was saying.

 

 

Bottom line is these people aren't normal but mentaly ill people that would be made better with proper counselling not changing their gender :XD: It's very painful and causes more problem with the person.

 

 

 

Wrong again. It's a fact that there is something medical wrong with these people. There's evidence in the brain, in hormone-systems, chromosomes, errors in sexual differentiation during development, etc. All these factors can add to not developing fully into a male/female.

 

 

 

But since you're not willing to believe anything I say (I'd advise you to read a good scientific book about sexual development during the prenatal stages of life) I'm asking you this...

 

What do you do with people that are born with a an uturus and a penis? Or hermaphrodites in general? Or people that are born as a male, have the physical properties of a male, but develop breasts during puberty?

 

 

 

=================================================

 

 

 

Bottomline is: There is a medical condition for "being in the wrong body". There is no denying in that.

 

To make a different example... even being homosexual is something that can be observed in brain activity. Almost everything can be related to physiology. Allthough in the case of homosexuality there is no possible way to "cure" it (yet) nor is there a need for it. Homosexuality is not something that has a negative influence on someone's life, unless those people get discriminated (which sadly, still happens)

[adam_ross0]

So Striker, adam and all the others who seem to think they have a god-given right to decide what's right and wrong, let me ask you this:

 

 

 

You're saying that people who want a sex change aren't allowed to decide what they can and what they can't do with their own bodies when it's not hurting anybody else, but you can decide for them, you can decide what's right and wrong for them?

 

 

 

Think about it, what gives you the right but not them?

 

 

 

I never sad it IS wrong..I just said that *I* think it is wrong to do..does that make sense? :-k

 

 

 

What I mean is, I never said it's absolutely wrong, deadly, bad, and stupid to get a sex change...I just said that my opinion was that it is wrong. After all, the thread is for you to give an opinion on sex changes.

[assassin_696]

So Striker, adam and all the others who seem to think they have a god-given right to decide what's right and wrong, let me ask you this:

 

 

 

You're saying that people who want a sex change aren't allowed to decide what they can and what they can't do with their own bodies when it's not hurting anybody else, but you can decide for them, you can decide what's right and wrong for them?

 

 

 

Think about it, what gives you the right but not them?

 

 

 

I never sad it IS wrong..I just said that *I* think it is wrong to do..does that make sense? :-k

 

 

 

What I mean is, I never said it's absolutely wrong, deadly, bad, and stupid to get a sex change...I just said that my opinion was that it is wrong. After all, the thread is for you to give an opinion on sex changes.

 

 

 

And it doesn't affect me either if they're legal. So why are you completely opposed to them being illegal as I am to them being legal?

 

 

 

You've implied several times that you'd prefer that homosexuality and sex change operations be illegal. Of course you're entitled to an opinion, but when you suddenly try and turn that opinion into a law it becomes more serious.

[warri0r45]

So Striker, adam and all the others who seem to think they have a god-given right to decide what's right and wrong, let me ask you this:

 

 

 

You're saying that people who want a sex change aren't allowed to decide what they can and what they can't do with their own bodies when it's not hurting anybody else, but you can decide for them, you can decide what's right and wrong for them?

 

 

 

Think about it, what gives you the right but not them?

 

 

 

I never sad it IS wrong..I just said that *I* think it is wrong to do..does that make sense? :-k

 

 

 

What I mean is, I never said it's absolutely wrong, deadly, bad, and stupid to get a sex change...I just said that my opinion was that it is wrong. After all, the thread is for you to give an opinion on sex changes.

 

 

 

Opinions are great if they coexist with reasons. Otherwise it's just boring and kinda annoying to be honest. I'd be glad to hear any kind of reason you can give as to why you have that opinion. I don't care whether you have that opinion or not, It's why that matters.

[Striker6]

Bauke you don't appear to have any evidence to support what you are saying, neither do any of you. What makes you all think so *strongly* that these people are born in the wrong bodies? I'll give you a news flash, some people are peculiar they have mental problems probably to do with an unhappy childhood that has aroused great depression and confusion within them. Now depression can be fixed with various drugs and counselling, these people don't really want a sex change, they just think it will cure them, when in reality it does not. For example many of you have said that it is creepy or weird, I'm confident that through having a sex change you become much more of an outsider so it infact does not fix any problems.

 

 

 

Many people here appear to have a very Liberal attitude (this isn't a bad thing) however some people cannot be trusted to make decisions on there own you need to understand that. Do we let people with difficult medical decisions choose whether or not they need help? Not everybody should be allowed free will if they are threat to themselves and others.

[assassin_696]

Bauke you don't appear to have any evidence to support what you are saying, neither do any of you. What makes you all think so *strongly* that these people are born in the wrong bodies? I'll give you a news flash, some people are peculiar they have mental problems probably to do with an unhappy childhood that has aroused great depression and confusion within them. Now depression can be fixed with various drugs and counselling, these people don't really want a sex change, they just think it will cure them, when in reality it does not. For example many of you have said that it is creepy or weird, I'm confident that through having a sex change you become much more of an outsider so it infact does not fix any problems.

 

 

 

Many people here appear to have a very Liberal attitude (this isn't a bad thing) however some people cannot be trusted to make decisions on there own you need to understand that. Do we let people with difficult medical decisions choose whether or not they need help? Not everybody should be allowed free will if they are threat to themselves and others.

 

 

 

How the hell are they a threat to others?

 

 

 

Say someone wanting a sex change was seen by a psychologist before they had the op, and she concluded that the best course of action was for them to have a sex change, would you still be against it?

 

 

 

What i'm trying to say is, are you against it because you genuinely believe that your idea is better and will help them more, or just because it goes against your ethics and morals, and you are trying to impose those on these people. Because it's coming across like it's the latter, which you're trying to justify with the former.

[Striker6]

Bauke you don't appear to have any evidence to support what you are saying, neither do any of you. What makes you all think so *strongly* that these people are born in the wrong bodies? I'll give you a news flash, some people are peculiar they have mental problems probably to do with an unhappy childhood that has aroused great depression and confusion within them. Now depression can be fixed with various drugs and counselling, these people don't really want a sex change, they just think it will cure them, when in reality it does not. For example many of you have said that it is creepy or weird, I'm confident that through having a sex change you become much more of an outsider so it infact does not fix any problems.

 

 

 

Many people here appear to have a very Liberal attitude (this isn't a bad thing) however some people cannot be trusted to make decisions on there own you need to understand that. Do we let people with difficult medical decisions choose whether or not they need help? Not everybody should be allowed free will if they are threat to themselves and others.

 

 

 

How the hell are they a threat to others?

 

 

 

Say someone wanting a sex change was seen by a psychologist before they had the op, and she concluded that the best course of action was for them to have a sex change, would you still be against it?

 

 

 

What i'm trying to say is, are you against it because you genuinely believe that your idea is better and will help them more, or just because it goes against your ethics and morals, and you are trying to impose those on these people. Because it's coming across like it's the latter, which you're trying to justify with the former.

 

 

 

Same question to you, many people here seem to have the whole 'equality', 'left wing' ideals in them which often is a little too idealistic and naive but they maintain them. Assassin and Warrior especially appear to always argue the far 'left wing' case about everything. Me however, I'm more diverse I'm not really overly right wing (I'm not racist etc) or anything like that but have a balanced amount of opinion which is the best way to be.

[assassin_696]

Same question to you, many people here seem to have the whole 'equality', 'left wing' ideals in them which often is a little too idealistic and naive but they maintain them. Assassin and Warrior especially appear to always argue the far 'left wing' case about everything. Me however, I'm more diverse I'm not really overly right wing (I'm not racist etc) or anything like that but have a balanced amount of opinion which is the best way to be.

 

 

 

I'm a liberal, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that i'm open minded when it comes to others opinions. In fact i'm probably more so because of it, since I would vehemently defend the freedom of opinion and speech to it's death. To quote Voltaire, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

 

 

 

If you ask the question of me, I would say that I don't really have an opinion either way, it's not something I want done but that doesn't mean that I don't think others should be allowed to have the op. It doesn't go against my ethics or morals, but trying to prevent it because it freaks you out a bit is against my moral ideals, namely control of your own body.

 

 

 

Considering I haven't seen any evidence of any kind which shows that it's any kind of detriment to society, I would say that it's their body and I have no right to say what they can and can't do with it so long as other's aren't harmed.

 

 

 

But apparently having these ideals makes me 'naive'. Regarding your stance as the 'best way to be' is ironic, because you just criticised others for being closeminded, but isn't it you who is being closeminded when it comes to the fact that there might be a better stance than yours?

 

 

 

The question still stands for you.

[Bauke]

Bauke you don't appear to have any evidence to support what you are saying, neither do any of you. What makes you all think so *strongly* that these people are born in the wrong bodies?

 

 

Because that's a fact? I told you, go watch a few documentaries about this topic, read books about sexual physiology, etc. It's correct that I haven't given you any names, but this information can be found in every book about this topic.

 

I'll tell you a few good ones from my medical study then:

 

Human Physiology - Dee Unglaub Silverthorn - 4th edition

 

Biology - Campbell and Reece - 7th edition

 

Established scientific books. Read them for proof.

 

 

I'll give you a news flash, some people are peculiar they have mental problems probably to do with an unhappy childhood that has aroused great depression and confusion within them. Now depression can be fixed with various drugs and counselling, these people don't really want a sex change, they just think it will cure them, when in reality it does not. For example many of you have said that it is creepy or weird, I'm confident that through having a sex change you become much more of an outsider so it infact does not fix any problems.

 

 

I'm not denying that there are people with mental problems. I'm simply stating (again) that there are people that do not have a mental problem, but a medical one. You COMPLETELY ignored my questions about sexual dimorphic people in my previous post.

 

 

Many people here appear to have a very Liberal attitude (this isn't a bad thing) however some people cannot be trusted to make decisions on there own you need to understand that. Do we let people with difficult medical decisions choose whether or not they need help? Not everybody should be allowed free will if they are threat to themselves and others.

 

Correct. But it's easy to check whether those people have a physiological or a mental condition. Based on that, it's easy to observe what to do with these patients. If you have a "male" patient with elevated levels of female hormones, an uturus, and XX chromosomes, it's quite clear that you have a patient with a serious medical condition. Simply an error in the regression of the mullarian duct can cause the female genitals not to be developped, and instead the person will develop male genitals.

 

 

 

Once again... it's simply a fact that there are people with a medical condition. If you don't believe that, read the books I gave above, watch documentaries about people undergoing a sex change, etc. At least stop saying I have nothing to back it up.

 

 

 

A simple example is a hermaphrodite. But you failed to take notice of that in my previous post.

[warri0r45]

Bauke you don't appear to have any evidence to support what you are saying, (1) neither do any of you. What makes you all think so *strongly* that these people are born in the wrong bodies? I'll give you a news flash, some people are peculiar they have mental problems probably to do with an unhappy childhood that has aroused great depression and confusion within them. Now depression can be fixed with various drugs and counselling, these people don't really want a sex change, they just think it will cure them, when in reality it does not. For example many of you have said that it is creepy or weird, (2) I'm confident that through having a sex change you become much more of an outsider so it infact does not fix any problems.

 

 

 

(3) Many people here appear to have a very Liberal attitude (this isn't a bad thing) however some people cannot be trusted to make decisions on there own you need to understand that. Do we let people with difficult medical decisions choose whether or not they need help? Not everybody should be allowed free will if they are threat to themselves and others.

 

 

 

(1) You're the one making this argument and I've persistantly asked you to back it up. Just because I've not come up with evidence counter to what you claim dosen't mean that you shouldn't have to. You're making these claims; the burden of proof lies squarely on your shoulders. I've not even made an argument either way (in regards to thier mental state and them supposedly being born in the wrong bodies) apart from my branching argument that it's society that's the threat to those that are different rather than the opposite, which is what you're arguing. But if it makes you any happier I'll work on something tomorrow to make your argument for you. I'll google 'sex change' and 'danger to society' and 'threat to others' and 'crime rate' just for good measure.

 

 

 

(2) And why do you think that is? People become outsiders because people such as yourself paint them out to be dangers to society when it's society which is often the danger to them. I've given reference to an article regarding this line of argument on a page gone by and if you haven't caught up with that, then I'll come up with more tomorrow. I'd also like to refer you to an entry two posts of mine ago which is in response to you and which you ever so conveniantly seem to have brisked over.

 

 

 

(3) Yes, I have a liberal attitude when it comes to lifestyle choice. However I never once disagreed with you when it comes to these matters not beeing taken lightly. I thorougly agree that these people should be evaluated and councilled through the process, but the choice should not be denied because people happen to oppose it via thier morality as if it's some sort of crown to behold.

 

 

 

Same question to you, many people here seem to have the whole 'equality', 'left wing' ideals in them which often is a little too idealistic and naive but they maintain them. Assassin and Warrior especially appear to always argue the far 'left wing' case about everything. Me however, I'm more diverse I'm not really overly right wing (I'm not racist etc) or anything like that but have a balanced amount of opinion which is the best way to be.

 

 

 

Ask yourself, why the hell do people ask questions if people never answer them and act as if they have a precedent to turn it around and ask one themselves? There's a chronology here. He asked the question first. Answer it or ignore it; don't turn it around as if you have the right to. I'm giving you advice here, it's just making you look like you don't want to reveal information in fear it will lose you the argument. Whether that's your motive for turning the question around or not, that's how I'm percieving it.

[Striker6]

I have formed my own opinions on the subject, nobody has influenced me. Just through reading this thread have I evaluated my position on the subject. I have read no books on the subject and that is my fault more than anyone elses. In any case I'm going to cease taking part in this debate as I don't think its going anywhere and I'm not going repeat myself again but I can't see anybody ever wanting a sex change, that could be my closed mindness or ignorance or perhaps you put to much reliance on peoples individual opinions.

 

 

 

Either way, I don't think there is anything else to discuss here, from me anyway.

[Bauke]

I have formed my own opinions on the subject, nobody has influenced me. Just through reading this thread have I evaluated my position on the subject. I have read no books on the subject and that is my fault more than anyone elses. In any case I'm going to cease taking part in this debate as I don't think its going anywhere and I'm not going repeat myself again but I can't see anybody ever wanting a sex change, that could be my closed mindness or ignorance or perhaps you put to much reliance on peoples individual opinions.

 

 

 

Either way, I don't think there is anything else to discuss here, from me anyway.

 

 

 

Well I can't imagine a think by someone wanting a sex change. But that ain't neccesary. I just accept it on the fact that it's a medical condition they're in, and that it can be cured by performing a sex change.

 

 

 

It's funny though when I ask you to view some sources and give an answer on a question regarding this subject that you want to cease this debate.

[warri0r45]

I have formed my own opinions on the subject, nobody has influenced me. Just through reading this thread have I evaluated my position on the subject. I have read no books on the subject and that is my fault more than anyone elses. In any case I'm going to cease taking part in this debate as I don't think its going anywhere and I'm not going repeat myself again but I can't see anybody ever wanting a sex change, that could be my closed mindness or ignorance or perhaps you put to much reliance on peoples individual opinions. Either way, I don't think there is anything else to discuss here, from me anyway.

 

 

 

You're quite entitled to hold that opinion, but I'm quite sure people who've had a sex change aren't the dangers to society you've painted them out to be; I've shown an example which is quite the contrary to that assertion and I'll get some more together a little later just so you can drop in and have a look see. As a matter of fact, I've just read a few articles on the issue which I'll elaborate on later. As I've said, an opinion dosen't mean [cabbage] unless you back it up with reasoning. Hence why I've been on your back to come up with any source to confirm your position or even a justification through reasoning would have done (you say you don't want to repeat yourself but I cant seem to find where you say why they are a danger to society). If you don't want to continue this discussion I obviously can't force you to.

[Value]

I dont have a problem with it really. I do find it sort of strange why you would want one, but it's up to them what they want to do.

[epeeflecher]

[bleep] all the people who change their sex. If one of my friends changed there sex i would [bleep] them up so bad.

[WereWulfie]

I personally think that people who are transgendered can't help they way they feel. And i have nothing against them. My girlfriend (cute little goth shimp xD ) Tells me sometimes, when shes feeling depressed, that she feels like shes a gay boy trapped inside a straight girls body o_O;;

 

It confused me at first, coz my girlfriend isn't a 'lez, tomboy ect..' shes 100% girl. But thats how she feels.. If she got a sex change, I'd definalty be gay for her. ;D also my mates dad is a transvestite. He's really nice. :shock: :thumbsup:

 

 

 

Why waste energy on hating someone thats never done anything to deserve it? :|

 

 

 

Homophobics irritate me so much.. -.- It's just as bad as racism.

[Striker6]

I have formed my own opinions on the subject, nobody has influenced me. Just through reading this thread have I evaluated my position on the subject. I have read no books on the subject and that is my fault more than anyone elses. In any case I'm going to cease taking part in this debate as I don't think its going anywhere and I'm not going repeat myself again but I can't see anybody ever wanting a sex change, that could be my closed mindness or ignorance or perhaps you put to much reliance on peoples individual opinions.

 

 

 

Either way, I don't think there is anything else to discuss here, from me anyway.

 

 

 

Well I can't imagine a think by someone wanting a sex change. But that ain't neccesary. I just accept it on the fact that it's a medical condition they're in, and that it can be cured by performing a sex change.

 

 

 

It's funny though when I ask you to view some sources and give an answer on a question regarding this subject that you want to cease this debate.

 

 

 

I brought suitable arguments against every point you made, most of which you dismissed to be 'off-topic' you cant use your own analogies and dismiss mine as irrelevant. In any case, all you did was give me some titles of a few books on the subject, which I'm willing to bet you havent read. Warrior, just because you have found a "source" does not instantly mean your opinion is greater than mine.

[lukewood1989]

man - woman = cheaper car insurance rofl... you save money in the long run. but err nah its not wrong its just... well different

[warri0r45]

Striker I didn't think you were going to post here any more. Still you seem to have said your opinion is of no less worth than mine without explaining why. An opinion is nothing if you just 'feel that way.' Seriously though, I will listen to any reason you can give as to why people who have sex changes are a danger to society. Untill then I honestly think that claim is absolute and utter BS. Here are some sources which affirm my position.

 

 

 

http://www.queerty.com/queer/news/city-manager-ousted-after-sex-change-announcement-20070228.php Persecuted for sex change.

 

 

 

http://society.guardian.co.uk/socialcare/story/0,,1273049,00.html Great article but a long read. Shows how indeed the process shouldn't be taken lightly. Here are some highlights:

 

 

 

Many transsexuals suffer from serious mental health problems as a result of the prejudice they face and the torment of living in what they regard as the wrong body.

 

International research suggests that 3-18% of them come to regret switching gender.

 

Transgender psychiatrists admit that the boundaries between transsexualism, transvestism and homosexuality are still not entirely clear to them, so a thorough exploration of the patient's history and lifestyle is essential.

 

Since Rowe stopped wearing women's clothes, he has regularly been harassed at his home in London. Gangs of youths have spat at him and called him names including paedophile and weirdo.

 

Surgeon James Bellringer adds: "I don't think that any research that denied transsexual patients treatment would get past an ethics committee. There's no other treatment that works. You either have an operation or suffer a miserable life. A fifth of those who don't get treatment commit suicide."

 

She joined a local evangelical church to find a new social circle. At first she was accepted. But in the spring of 1994, while preparing for baptism, she decided to reveal her past to the pastor and his wife. "I wanted to be honest about who I was," she says. "They were taken aback. They saw my surgery as an act of rebellion against God." Although Dainton accepts that the church thought it was acting in her best interests, she says that over the next two years, its teachings undermined her female identity. "I was swallowing the fundamentalist sermons week in, week out. I so wanted to be accepted."

 

"I personally know people in the US and Australia who have resumed living in their original biological gender role. Nearly all claim to have done so as a result of Christian conviction."

 

 

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gender/story_011030.html

 

 

 

If I ever showed any "feminine" traits (including crying, and interest in "unmanly" activities like music) I got the s$%t beat out of me, usually by my mother or grandmother.

 

We would have had to move to another state and started all new lives because of the embarrassment and discomfort my parents and I would have had to face.

 

 

 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006460255,,00.html

 

She revealed she was cruelly taunted during games, with opponents shouting: ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅYou canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t play because youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re not womanly enough.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[sycosis5]

Of course it isn't going to effect me!

 

 

 

 

 

 

And it doesn't affect me either if they're legal. So why are you completely opposed to them being illegal as I am to them being legal?

 

 

 

edit: Why is my post in caps?

 

 

 

thats not caps

 

 

 

THIS IS CAPS YOUR POST IS JUST A BIGGER FONT LIKE this

 

 

 

I think its grose if your born a guy you die a guy if your born a girl you die a girl even if you get a sex change you will neve feel what its realy like to be a girl or guy

[Striker6]

I am saying that people that undergo this surgery are succumbed to a high deal of stress. The operation changes their entire way of life, personality and behaviours obviously such strain on the character could perhaps provoke anger at others around them and lean them more heavily towards suicide as the majority of transexual people have had prior thoughts of suicide.

 

 

 

What I am telling you that such a bold and drastic move makes the participant in no doubt a worse situation than they were prior and misplaces their depression. Not because "other people" mock them but because they have an inferiority complex as you (obviously) have to have if you are wanting to alternate everything about yourself through surgery.

 

 

 

Consider this, I would rather jump off a bridge than have a sex change. Would you let someone willing to kill themselves have control over their own actions? I don't think so, unless you wanted to see them die (or in this case have surgery). People need proper councelling and personal help otherwise they are wrecking their lives.

[warri0r45]

I am saying that people that undergo this surgery are succumbed to a high deal of stress. (1) The operation changes their entire way of life, personality and behaviours obviously such strain on the character could perhaps provoke anger at others around them and lean them more heavily towards suicide as the majority of transexual people have had prior thoughts of suicide.

 

 

 

What I am telling you that such a bold and drastic move makes the participant in no doubt a worse situation than they were prior and misplaces their depression. Not because "other people" mock them but because (2) they have an inferiority complex as you (obviously) have to have if you are wanting to alternate everything about yourself through surgery.

 

 

 

Consider this, I would rather jump off a bridge than have a sex change. Would you let someone willing to kill themselves have control over their own actions? I don't think so, unless you wanted to see them die (or in this case have surgery). (3) People need proper councelling and personal help otherwise they are wrecking their lives.

 

 

 

(1) In some cases for the better? Or do you think it's all doom and gloom?

 

 

 

(2) Really? Where do you think they may get that inferiority complex from? Perhaps society dosen't like people with transgender issues so they begin to listen to the hate and propoganda drilled into them.

 

 

 

(3) I agree.

 

 

 

What happened to them being a threat to society? I still would't mind any source to back up your opinion that it perhaps/no doubt leaves them in a worse situation than they were previously in. Read some of the stories in the sources I gave.

 

 

 

Actually let me help you make your point. Scour through this:

 

http://www.lgbthistorymonth.org.uk/history/100lives.htm

 

And find some people who are perhaps/no doubt worse off after thier surgery for reasons other then thier persecution from society.

 

 

 

Find any figure that states suicide rates are higher among transexuals than those pre operation and I'll work on doing the same for the opposite case.

 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

http://www.lauras-playground.com/mtf.htm

 

The scariest statistic is that pre-op Male to females have a suicide rate of 31% with 50% having had at least one suicide attempt by age 20. Post-op rates are below the national average.

 

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/glbt/transgender.htm

 

Studies generally report a pre-transition suicide attempt rate of 20% or more, with MTFs relatively more likely to attempt suicide than FTMs. There is some evidence that transsexual people are less likely to attempt suicide once they have completed the transition to the other sex.

 

http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/morbid.htm

 

"Post-reassignment, Pfafflin and Junge found reports of only 16 possible suicide deaths among over 2000 cases: 14 in MFs, one in an FM, and one with gender not specified. Five of the 16 may have been accidental medication or drug overdoses rather than genuine suicides. In the remaining 11 cases, suicide was usually not thought to be related to gender problems per se. These results suggest that post- transition, suicidal tendencies probably get no worse, and may actually improve." - "Transsexual Surgery: Its Pros and Cons" By Anne Lawrence, M.D.

 

http://www.nickgorton.org/Medical%20Therapy%20and%20HM%20for%20Transgender%20Men_2005.doc

 

Transgender patients, by virtue of their gender identity are also at significant risk for harassment and hate-related violence.92 Unlike many transgender women, some transmen report a decrease in such dangers of interpersonal harassment and violence when they transition as the effects of testosterone make them more readily able to 'pass' in society.

Looks like this source states that transition makes transgendered men less suceptible to anger and violence because of lowered testosterone. Compare that to what you wrote.

 

 

 

Book, page 21

 

 

 

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Come on mate, can't argue with myself forever...

 

 

 

Or perhaps I can...

 

http://society.guardian.co.uk/mentalhealth/story/0,,1272093,00.html

 

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.

 

"There is a huge uncertainty over whether changing someone's sex is a good or a bad thing. While no doubt great care is taken to ensure that appropriate patients undergo gender reassignment, there's still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatised - often to the point of committing suicide."

 

Arif, which advises the NHS in the West Midlands about the evidence base of healthcare treatments, found that most of the medical research on gender reassignment was poorly designed, which skewed the results to suggest that sex change operations are beneficial.

 

Its review warns that the results of many gender reassignment studies are unsound because researchers lost track of more than half of the participants.

 

Dr Hyde said: "The bottom line is that although it's clear that some people do well with gender reassignment surgery, the available research does little to reassure about how many patients do badly and, if so, how badly."

 

Transgender psychiatrists, who assess whether patients should change sex, agree that more scientific research is needed. But Kevan Wylie, chairman of the Royal College of Psychiatrists' working party on gender identity disorders, said that all of his patients' lives have drastically improved following gender reassignment surgery.

 

Conflicting views thus far. It looks like some procedures work out, some don't. Some studies are bogus, some aren't.

 

 

 

Finally for now, take a look at this, quoted from http://www.suicidology.org

 

Socially isolated indviduals are generally found to be at a higher risk of suicide

 

Correlate that little fact with any statement that suicide rates are higher among transsexual individuals. They commit suicide because society is a threat to them. Just as I've been arguing counter to you saying they are the threat to society. They feel isolated from society and the masses look down on them and as a result they're driven to suicide.

 

 

 

Stay tuned for more.

[The Dark Lord]

[bleep] all the people who change their sex. If one of my friends changed there sex i would [bleep] them up so bad.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow. You're one [wagon] of a friend.

[Striker6]

Ok well, when I searched I just found a bunch of websites giving me offers to where I could get cheap sex changes :ohnoes:

 

 

 

But I like my argument that is being formed :thumbsup: