Whats happened to tip it?

[Flame_guy3]

I know this post is long but would you really want a trite 2 sentence reply about something like this?

 

_________________________________________________________

 

 

 

This topic caught my attention as I was browsing the board; I was glad to see a topic of some merit when I looked inside (a pleasant surprise for General).

 

 

 

I was more pleased to see that Sith had posted. His ideas for the forum are in line with what I would like to see happen for the most part. I always enjoyed his ideas for the community when we would discuss things. (On a sidenote I don't think the community realizes what a good guy they lost in him when it came to promoting a fun and engaging forum.)

 

 

 

It took me a while to read that lol and what you said pretty much sums up all thats happened. You've probably done it better than me as i remember you being much more active in the Forums more than i ever was. Im glad to see that an admin who may or may not be responsible for whats happened to take actual interest in this topic. I know that if i was in your position i would be flaming the user who posted this topic. I also respect the fact that you are the first of all the staff that have posted here (i may be wrong but as far as i know) that admit that tip.it has gone downhill and that i am not blaming staff entirely as their not fully at fault. Yes they created stickies, but they did it thinking we as the users of tip.it would prefer this. They did it for interest and for the interest of the people who complained about spam topics and are possibly even complaining about stickies on this topic contradicting their complaints to staff.

 

The most important sentence in your post or what the sentence referred to was:

 

 

 

Why fix something thats not broken?

[the_tallest1]

I saw this topic as I was skimming the board and I immediately thought of what I said here so forgive me quoting myself:

 

 

 

Some users (perhaps due to immaturity, who knows) cannot rest until they have voiced their opinion on why a topic should not be there, or even better that "no one cares". I would think a topic no one cared about wouldn't need that pointed out. :? [...] I've seen so many topics locked because of people spamming it with how stupid it is. A lot of these topics aren't really that bad, but the constant spam forces them to be locked (for better or worse). The part that annoys me is that users know they can force a lock if they persist long enough.

 

 

 

Is that the best topic ever? Probably not. Is it that bad? I think it's worth mentioning at least for the person who got unmuted. A 2 year mute isn't a small thing. I probably wouldn't have anything to add to it so I just wouldn't post. However, at the time of this writing, 5 of the 14 replies are by people who had to post only to say something was wrong with the topic. I'm sure the topic will be locked soon (if not already by the time I finish typing this) and it wouldn't need to happen if people didn't do this. I don't know if people realize this but locked topics take up just as much room on the page as a "crappy" unlocked one does. I'd find it much more embarrassing to make a topic that got no replies as opposed to one that got locked. But, we won't probably get that chance due to the response these types of topics often get.

 

 

 

The argument can be made, "But that isn't worth posting about." I think there are some things that are complete spam, "yay I found 1 gp on ground." for example. But what about a story of a bit more meaning, to the person at least? What I ask myself when I see topics like the one I linked to above is whether this would be an issue for popular TIFers. I'll use Leesters as an example (first name that came to mind since he always has popular topics and is well known on the forum). Ignoring how implausible this is, if he were to post that he had been muted for 3 days how many replies of outrage/support do you think there'd be? I can imagine there would be very few if any saying, "who cares" or "where's the discussion?"

 

 

 

Now I brought all that up to show that the general TIF populace places a value on some people's posts over others. No shock there, I do it, you do it, we all do it. The problem occurs when a mob of people (users in this case) all place value the same way, ie. Well-known user's post = good, unknown's post = stupid. So how do we determine a fair way to say what gets allowed or not? A) We treat them all the same and disallow them equally and have a forum where people say things are "repressed". B) We let "quality" (well-known people's) topics stay even if a similar topic by a nobody would be removed, and then we have the perfect scenario for favoritism. (Funny enough it would be favoritism by mob rule in this case since the topics that would get locked are those that users force locked.)

 

 

 

Now to veer back more toward the question: Why fix something thats not broken?

 

 

 

I think part of this is that different people will have differing opinions on how well something works. My take on something might be, "Ok 15 topics about the exact same thing. Can't anyone join a discussion instead of starting an identical one?" If this results in a sticky being made, you might browse the forum and want to start a good topic, but wait... there's a sticky for that. So your thought might be "God that's so stupid what is the point of that, no one even uses it because no one reads it." Herein lies the double edged sword of stickies. People tend to avoid posting on them in many cases. This can make stickies seem pointless, but if you remove that sticky and people aren't forced to post there it can cause a rise in the amount of people making those topics again. It's the whole "woot, I can make my own topic about this" scenario. My point here is not that we have to keep every sticky forever but that apparent underuse doesn't mean those topics won't appear more if the sticky were removed.

 

 

 

Also, something not being broken doesn't mean it's perfect, or rather that it should never be changed. I think it's very easy to get into a comfort zone about things (separate F2P / P2P boards for example) and not want any changes because it's "fine the way it is". I don't think we've ever had an idea that we didn't discuss and consider how it would affect how everyone uses the forum. Of course, you have to remember that I, at least, don't use the board in the same manner as everyone else and where I see a useful sticky someone else might see an eyesore. But then again, I get a different use out of them than most users would.

 

 

 

So the questions I end with are these:

 

 

 

What stickies could we do without?

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

How will removing some of the more "spammy" stickies ever work with how users react to threads they don't like?

[Ard_Choille]

I've been pondering a reply to this thread for a few days. To begin, I do want to say that I wasn't here for the old Scapeboard days so references to the good old days are lost on me.

 

 

 

With that said, here' goes.

 

 

 

I used to love tip.it a community where everyone could just post topics not caring what others thought knowing that there would always be a good discussion.

 

 

 

That has changed severely. This feels like we're all being holed up in boxes as if we do not post in the correct sticky, topic or thread we will be shot hung and quartered. Note: Sarcasm.

 

• In the time I've been here, our userbase has increased therefore removing some of the "small town" feel (if you will) that many of you mention.
   
   
   
  In a small town, you can have a single town square where people come to get help, sit around the park and chat about anything. People on the whole know each other and are easygoing about helping each other out about anything, even if the topics jump around. As the town grows, people start getting annoyed and use things like rudeness and sarcasm to tell people they are in the wrong place or asking the same question for the nth time.
   
   
   
  As a community, we are all responsible for keeping the small town feel. If someone asks a redundant question...it won't hurt to just answer it and let the thread die a natural death. Instead, people tend to blast the thread with spam about how it's been asked and answered before and how spammy it is to ask. Or, someone will report the thread and people will post just to ask why the thread was reported. Unfortunately this requires that the moderating team come and scrub the "this is spam", "search next time", "ur a noob for posting this", "+1", etc. graffiti from the forum. Is this how we want to spend our free time? Heck no! We want to spend our energy posting, attending events, coordinating contests and having fun, not running around with locks and chains and ban sticks.
   
  

 

Regarding Stickies

 

• Sticky "post your this or that here" threads are really a result of what's actually posted. If a certain topic gets overposted, we'll consider giving you all a single location to find the topic and reply accordingly. Do all stickies need to stay around forever, no. Our

Forum Updates & Suggestions forum is there for just this sort of constructive feedback. If a sticky simply isn't merited anymore, tell us specifically.
 

 

So, what's the staff doing?

 

• Since I've been on staff, we've really busted our tails trying to come up with ways to improve Tip.It. We do what we can to update the forums with the suggestions you have. We've simplified almost every instructional post on the forums. We've installed the Report Post function. We've increased signature size. We've simplified the Index. We've added subforums by request and then removed them. We've reduced the number of censored words...and the list goes on.
   
   
   
  We recognize that the "mood" needs to change but we need all members of the Tip.It Community to help, not hinder. If users want to help by reporting rule violations, then users need to refrain from replying with rudeness/spam and furthering the problem. If users want fewer sticky threads, TELL us which ones are no longer needed instead of making blanket statements that give us nothing constructive to work with. If we remove stickies and topics get redundant, we need users to not spam them up with how spammy and redundant they are. If someone asks a question that's been asked a thousand times, we need users to simply answer the question instead of posting to flame the inquiring mind. Above all, give us constructive ideas by posting them on the

Forum Updates & Suggestions forum.
 
 
 
We are all part of the Tip.It Community and we are all responsible (regardless of rank) for improving the quality of our forums.
 
 
 
- Ard

[Adam007]

Ard as well as a lot of other people, you've been mentioning that it's the responsibility of the members of this forum to bring change through attitude/behavior. I'm disagreeing that there is a problem in the first place, but I'd just like to say that I don't think that's the right approach to take in changing things (although again I don't see any changes needed). This board does have a city feel now. It's had it for a few years. These people aren't complaining about scapeboard vs. now, they're complaining that their random questionnaire spam threads are getting contained.

 

 

 

Trying to get the community to change by asking them won't work. It's not that they're against it. It's just that the community changes every month. Over a year the faces here change so much you can tell the community one thing now and it'll be a complete new one after. The only real way to effect the community is by changing the board's entire atmosphere, descriptions of boards, rules, etc. And I think it's already set up optimally for that. People just behave this way regardless when you have large forums.

 

 

 

It's great we're having open discussion about this but as long as we have a large forum things are just going to be the way they are. People don't really know what's going on, they think things have changed but they haven't. If I made a "things are really going great here at tip it! Here's an example!" thread, I would get just as many positive agreeing replies as agreeing replies in this thread. It's so easy to convince people that a trend is going on with one example in regards to communities. So again I just don't see much we can do, and I think things are fine as they are now.

[FooK-A-Ji]

"normal users" --> not happy

 

admins/mods --> can't see why not happy /refuse to recognize negative response by defending themselves. (with uber long and boring replies, which won't be fully read and we all know this)

 

 

 

blaiming triangle in this thread:

 

 

 

users -> mods -> admins -> users .

[FooK-A-Ji]

 

 

 

It was also a rhetorical question. I was just curious to know how many forum users criticising the mods would actually be prepared to work the many hours they put into the forums every week, cleaning it up, themselves.

 

 

 

If you wish to continue this, I'm more than happy to through the PM system. Otherwise, this is leading the topic astray from its main point, so I'll stop posting here.

 

 

 

Rhetorical question: The rhetorical question is usually defined as any question asked for a purpose other than to obtain the information the question asks. For example, "Why are you so stupid?" is likely to be a statement regarding one's opinion of the person addressed rather than a genuine request to know. Similarly, when someone responds to a tragic event by saying, "Why me, God?!" it is more likely to be an accusation or an expression of feeling than a realistic request for information.

 

What good do you get out of asking a rhetorical question, other than coming across as a smart-pants? And let me state AGAIN, that all mods are VOLUNTEERS in the first place.

 

---

 

Can't see how our discussion is more off-topic than any other post here, as its directly linked with the topic of discussion. We are discussing what happened to tip.it.

[McGuff1]

I've been here for years now and nothing seems different to me. Is it really fair to make an assumption this fast? I mean if you compare one day to another at the other extreme, you can have a huge difference. Get readjusted to here and you'll find everything's fine.

 

Listen to him. He's been around a long time and has an objective view of previous and current state of the forum.

 

 

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅYou can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t please all of the people all of the timeÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[JimmyMcNabb]

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅYou can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t please all of the people all of the timeÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[FooK-A-Ji]

 

 

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅYou can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t please all of the people all of the timeÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[Ard_Choille]

"normal users" --> not happy

 

admins/mods --> can't see why not happy /refuse to recognize negative response by defending themselves. (with uber long and boring replies, which won't be fully read and we all know this)

 

 

 

blaiming triangle in this thread:

 

 

 

users -> mods -> admins -> users .

 

Gee, we reply and get complaints as to how we do it?

 

 

 

I recognize the issue. I stated that it is the responsibility of ALL USERS, regardless of rank. If you'd fully read my post (since you've clearly stated that you didn't) you'd see that. :wall:

 

 

 

- Ard

[FooK-A-Ji]

"normal users" --> not happy

 

admins/mods --> can't see why not happy /refuse to recognize negative response by defending themselves. (with uber long and boring replies, which won't be fully read and we all know this)

 

 

 

blaiming triangle in this thread:

 

 

 

users -> mods -> admins -> users .

 

Gee, we reply and get complaints as to how we do it?

 

 

 

I recognize the issue. I stated that it is the responsibility of ALL USERS, regardless of rank. If you'd fully read my post (since you've clearly stated that you didn't) you'd see that. :wall:

 

 

 

- Ard

 

 

 

It might be the responsibility of ALL USERS, as you put it. But the enforcing is down to the people with the power. The only thing USERS can do is mouth their opinions.

 

 

 

p.s. I didn't state anywhere I didn't read your whole post. You assumed.

 

If you take it as a complaint, so be it.

 

Fact of the matter is that if there are 10 posts with over 20-30 lines one after another, few will want to take the time to read through all, rendering the whole point of a long post pointless.

[Nenga]

I remember you. It is not just tipit. Its members have become flaming noobs (and I'm not talking about the people who flamed me from the begining [bubsa] It is this way on every other forum too, even those not on tipit (RSOF)

[FooK-A-Ji]

I remember you. It is not just tipit. Its members have become flaming noobs (and I'm not talking about the people who flamed me from the begining [bubsa] It is this way on every other forum too, even those not on tipit (RSOF)

 

 

 

the more people, the more people with big ego's-> more flaming -> less foru m quality

[Embraced]

Tip.it has grown, and is ever-expanding in its community, TIF would have always had its morons and its idiots but as more and more people join they are more noticeable.

[Ard_Choille]

It might be the responsibility of ALL USERS, as you put it. But the enforcing is down to the people with the power. The only thing USERS can do is mouth their opinions.

 

Posting an opinion is one thing, flaming and spamming, quite another. The original post of the thread is related to how users are "being holed up in boxes as if we do not post in the correct sticky, topic or thread we will be shot hung and quartered." We try different ways of enforcing the rules because not all users resist flaming and spamming.

 

 

 

It is a vicious cycle, for sure.

 

 

 

p.s. I didn't state anywhere I didn't read your whole post. You assumed.

 

If you take it as a complaint, so be it.

 

Fact of the matter is that if there are 10 posts with over 20-30 lines one after another, few will want to take the time to read through all, rendering the whole point of a long post pointless.

 

I'm glad you read the whole reply. I hope you can understand how it might be frustrating to have it labeled as pointless.

 

 

 

- Ard

[das]

see this is where I disagree, I have been around as long as adam, and as long as fook (fook may have a good edge on me on time though) ,I can see the viewpoints of both sides, Adam arguements has it mertie, and he is right, compared to where we were we are Fine and doing well, and fook has his points that we can improve.

 

 

 

Overall I think we are making progress and One thing I would like to see here especially is less locks, i believe in a proactive tactic of pm the user and try to avoid locking, Locking just seems so final.

 

 

 

Fook has a point in the aspect in that the wall of text (while good) is going to scare the heck out of the average teenage user who has to actually read something long and intelligent. although I think fooks blame triangle is wrong, its to me users>

 

 

 

one of the biggest things is the community has changed, The days of Vas, rsn lead, the other guys like sadpoorguy, outlaw rudy, salty ant are gone, although a good majority of the oldschool trolls and posters are quite active in off topic.

 

 

 

 

 

Overall, I am optimistic we can improve and get better, and from how fell we far, where we are at now, is not bad at all, it can get better, but it can be worse. I would know, I was around.

 

 

 

My question to you is fook, if you could improve some key things, or make some changes, what would *You* do ? I am very interested in what you would do, as I beleive they would be very similar to my theologies and as an oldie, i would love to see if your perspective differs from mine.

 

with Respect ,

 

*Passes the Bhang to fook *

 

 

 

 

 

~Das1330

 

Wanderer/Vulture/Keeper of forgotten Honour

[meili]

My (concrete) suggestion: allow people to introduce themselves and to say farewell if they are leaving. It can be on a separate subforum but have it there.

 

 

 

Stickies are no good. No one reads them.

 

 

 

Recently a well-known Tip It staff member posted a "leaving" topic which generated a ton of posts, why are staff allowed to post banned topics but not users?

 

 

 

I still don't understand why the questionnaire topics were moved when they had more posts than most. Obviously people enjoy them, otherwise they wouldn't get several pages of replies.

 

 

 

"What things confused you when you were a newb?" is a questionnaire survey question yet it has 4 pages of replies. It is in general discussion as is "How do you level up?". "Most Useless Item on Runescape" has 19 pages of replies so far...I think that pretty much shows how much people like these topics. :roll:

[The_Sith]

Agreed with Meili. No one is going to read a 45 page thread of people who have posted their good-byes - it's just a holding ground for what could be a set of interesting threads to read. I wouldn't mind seeing a person's good-bye thread posted separately if they listed their accomplishments, how long they've been here, etc. Does it mean I will read each and every one? No. But it's better than not ever reading any.. which is what is happening in the current state.

 

 

 

I didn't/don't understand the questionnaire move. The general F2P/P2P merge hadn't been going on long and already people were complaining about it (see my first post). Not only that but the actual activity of the board wasn't at a peak level at all. Now that the questionnaire thread were removed (which were a large part of the activity here), that entire topic "section" of this board has all but died. The activity on the subforum is very low and in turn, the activity on the main board has died down somewhat as well.

 

 

 

If you take a look at a majority of the stickies, you'll notice that they have been there for a long time. Now take a look at the time stamp of each response. Sometimes there are three or four from one week but then they start to have one to two week intervals.. like that scam thread. Second page is from September. Had these topics been posted separately, there may have been some interesting discussion points on one or two of them. There is no WAY anything interesting can be brought up on an already created, 30-page thread which is ignored by many. I think the most successful, "pile everything into here" sticky Tip.it has had was the scam e-mail sticky. Staff would post a scam e-mail on it and people would read the new response.

 

 

 

There have been some comments about the quality of posts and how there aren't many good topics. Maybe that's because all of the interesting topics (note: *popular* topics) are delegated to hundred-page stickies! I bet if the Staff removed the mass-post stickies and allowed people to post discussions on any topic (according to the board description), there would be more opportunities for intelligent discussion.. simply because there is more of a chance to pursue controversial/popular ideas. It seems that people want to: 1) pick and choose what they read, moving everything else into a sticky/subforum and 2) expect intelligent, mature discussion from the watered down remains. IMO, if everyone is agreed on the goal of having more mature/thought-out discussions, the solution isn't to pile all the most-discussed items into one place - it should be the opposite. If you give people a chance to post on something that interests them, they will most likely post something that is more entertaining to read.

[the_tallest1]

"normal users" --> not happy

 

admins/mods --> can't see why not happy /refuse to recognize negative response by defending themselves. (with uber long and boring replies, which won't be fully read and we all know this)

 

 

blaiming triangle in this thread:

 

 

 

users -> mods -> admins -> users .

 

 

 

Meh, I'm not offended if people don't like my long boring replies and skip them. But unlike an idiot that posts all in italics (which I'd skip for example), this idiot's posts tend to contain information about where things are going in topics like these. If someone can't take the time to read it, the less time I waste arguing with morons.

 

 

 

And now the summary for those that couldn't make it through that^

 

 

 

long posts = less illiterate idiots to bother replying to

[mario_sunny]

Stickies are definately a problem.

 

 

 

I don't think eliminating them will exactly be the best choice. Rather, re-arrange them, delete them, add more if really necessary, just make the board look cleaner and stickies more popular and effective.

 

 

 

Although I do not know how the staff handles situations like this, I would definately shoot for pleasing the majority of the crowd. Obviously everyone cannot be pleased, but getting the most people possible to agree with something would be the best choice.

 

 

 

On a final note- I'm very dissapointed to see how some users are acting here. There is no need for any insults, flaming, or spamming. We can argue without calling eachother names or throwing eachother's ideas in the trash. I'm also very dissapointed to see even tip.it staff members, and some very high ranked ones, acting in the same manner. As part of the staff you represent tip.it, if you act in a wrong manner you're making tip.it look bad. I would seriously suggest to everyone who replies to this topic to read over their post and make sure it's suitable for this debate.

[Sy_Accursed]

I think its wanna-be mods or thoose who lack the ability to disagree with something WITHOUT being rude about it that are dragging the forum down a bit.

 

 

 

But on the whole I'd say it's still pretty good.

 

 

 

The stickies and different forums are there for a reason, if you don't post in the right place you should expect to get the thread locked. If you don't post in the right place and admit you knew it was the wrong place you should expect to get some negative attitude. If you post pointless spam you should expect to get some attitude.

 

 

 

Overall it's not that bad, only a few threads get spammed - and they are just ones of extreme views or extremely pointless.

 

 

 

The rest are either good discussion or just get a report for being in the wrong place and pretty much left until a mod moves/locks it

[meili]

Agreed with Meili. No one is going to read a 45 page thread of people who have posted their good-byes - it's just a holding ground for what could be a set of interesting threads to read. I wouldn't mind seeing a person's good-bye thread posted separately if they listed their accomplishments, how long they've been here, etc. Does it mean I will read each and every one? No. But it's better than not ever reading any.. which is what is happening in the current state.

 

 

 

I like the leaving posts sometimes, they can be quite interesting. Besides, RS has been a part of people's lives and if they have played for any length of time then players like to look back at what they have achieved and bid farewell to the community.

[Adam007]

If it is agreed that the best move is to do what the majority of what the community wants, should we just have a vote to keep or remove specific stickies like hello/goodbye stickies, etc? That way people won't complain afterwards because it represents what the community wants.

[mario_sunny]

If it is agreed that the best move is to do what the majority of what the community wants, should we just have a vote to keep or remove specific stickies like hello/goodbye stickies, etc? That way people won't complain afterwards because it represents what the community wants.

 

 

 

I think that would be the best idea. Have one thread open for voting on every single sticky here; remove it, or keep it. Users could also post reasons.

[The_Sith]

Still, it was talked about earlier in the thread that people don't KNOW what they want. We give them what they want, they complain; we do something revolutionary on our own, they complain. The best way, IMO, is to get information from discussions like these - and then move forward with what was discussed and/or what the staff thinks is best. Aren't they, after all, chosen to make this community a better place? Don't we entrust them to do the right thing for the community? If it is made apparent that the wrong thing was done, we trust them enough to reverse the changes and implement something else.

 

 

 

The benefit of threads like these is the fact that people who care about what happens to the community take the time to post. Polls collect data from everyone, that's true, but it isn't necessarily worthwhile to gather information crucial to forum development from people who don't give a crap either way.