Words Can Kill (Mods, Please Lock)

[Dragonlordjl]

No condolences for the family.

 

 

 

Agreed, who cares, 1 emo down.

 

 

 

All I have to say to these comments is that I am happy for the both of you. The only way anyone can have these views is if they are both young and lucky enough that they've never had to live with depression or other serious issues. I hope you remain care-free and ignorant enough to be this judgmental of others for as long as possible. Enjoy it while you can.

 

 

 

Because people are responsible for their own actions that were not directly caused by physical intervention of another person.

 

 

 

This is false both in terms of ethics and as a matter of law. I could give countless examples.

 

 

 

 

In other words, yeah hate the parents if you like but they did *not* cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

Were it not for their actions, there is no doubt in my mind that the girl would be alive today. They did cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

Normal people do not kill themselves over some one harassing them on msn, myspace or even irl.

 

 

The people who did this knew the girl and what her condition was. That makes what they did all the worse.

 

 

 

The larger point is that when someone bullies another on the Internet, you never know what the impact will be on the other person.

 

 

 

Qeltar, you upset me by arguing back. I'm going to kill myself now. (No I'm not going to kill myself, because I am intelligent)

 

 

 

Read that, and think to yourself how that sounds.

 

 

 

"This is false both in terms of ethics and as a matter of law. I could give countless examples."

 

 

 

In terms of ethics that's true. In terms of law, it is not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Qeltar, you're a smart guy and you post a lot of interesting things... your website is pretty nice as well. But can you please not post threads like this anymore? They're too controversial and can lead to stupid arguments and comments, as well as flaming.

 

 

 

Oh yes, let's all just stick out heads in the sand and pretend that the world is cherry.

 

 

 

Isn't the purpose of a forum to debate issues?

 

 

 

And yes, as someone said earlier, there is a definite lack of compassion in this thread. Just think how much worse it'd be if Qeltar posted the story in the RSOF. I literally would expect someone to post "lol she got owned, wot an emo noob."

 

 

 

Oh, and I personally loathe the term "emo." Popular culture has used it to completely defile what depression truly is. These days, anyone who is depressed or has suicidal thoughts is labeled as an emo... It is pure ignorance and is quite infuriating. I would bet one thousand dollars you wouldn't go before Megan's parents' face and call their daughter a 'pathetic emo.' Anyone who uses that term should be kicked in the genitals.

[meili]

Regardless, suicides do not generally come out of the blue. They are in response to a specific trigger. She had been depressed for years; this event pushed her over the line.

 

 

 

A trigger only sets off what is already there. That is what the word itself means. She was like a loaded gun ready to go off at any provocation. A person with no mental illness wouldn't have any trivial triggers like Megan. Maybe a normal person would commit suicide over a terminal illness but they wouldn't kill themselves over an internet slur.

 

 

 

I also bet that you aren't a 13-year-old girl, and that DOES matter.

 

 

 

? More than half of the population are, have been and will be 13 year old girls. I am one such. I have not died when people criticized me nor will I. :P

 

 

 

We will just have to agree to disagree. I won't change my mind just because of this one case and there is no scientific or logical proof to say this single incident killed Megan.

 

 

 

Suicide is not something that happens for a simple reason. This story on Megan is journalistic sensationalism, just like every other "the internet killed my daughter/son" story there has ever been.

 

 

 

The real story here should have been teenage depression and how it is treatable. ADD is also one of the high risk factors for teenage suicide.

 

 

 

Your message is good but it's too exaggerated. If someone says "die worthless fat girl" in RS, they are not killing the girl, no matter if she suicides later.

 

 

 

The people who did this knew the girl and what her condition was. That makes what they did all the worse.

 

 

 

I'm hardly saying they were justified. They did wrong. I am protesting the whole overdramatic tone of the story and boiling everything down to something simple yet false - myspace hoax kills girl. That is highly debateable. It seems that the police just took the parent's word for everything but how do we know there was no abuse in the family and other triggers? The parents are also reportedly divorcing. I can't imagine that was unrelated.

 

 

 

The larger point is that when someone bullies another on the Internet, you never know what the impact will be on the other person.

 

 

 

What, they might cry? It could hurt their feelings? I'm sure people already know that. They just don't care.

[Solidus_77]

Hanging one's self over a verbal insult is, in my opinion, a ridiculous extreme and I do not like those kinds of tactics used to make people more sensitive to an issue by presenting an unusual extreme. I'm also kind of surprised that the mother goes so far to shield her child, and I believe that the mother's over protectiveness did contribute this tragedy. Thus, I also think that this tragedy could have been avoided if the girl wasn't exposed to so much abuse all at once.

 

 

 

That being said, you explained the article quite well in a way that did make me consider some issues in cyber-bullying. Not so much about verbal abuse (I'll get to that in a second) but more about what you said. Backstabbing, a friend destroying one's account. A person who acts in such a way is not worthy of being called a friend. Putting aside all the "get over it, it's just a game" arguments aside, for people who really believe and trust their friends, it can be devastating to know that their friends not only were not there to support them but also were part of the cause. Like you said, words can kill, but also actions speak louder than words. So if words can kill, actions can destroy.

 

 

 

With the anonymity of the internet, verbal abuse obviously has a tendency to grow. It's simply because we are unable to see the other person's reactions. If you even just talked to the person (let alone saw the person in real life), you'd probably find it harder to swing insults in their face than if you pmed them on, say, an online forum. I'm not talking about the extreme cases where a young kid cries over being called a "noob" in an online game but really about the lack of companionship for our fellow scaper and even friends that we all exhibit (in different degrees) as we follow our elitist dreams.

 

 

 

Verbal abuse isn't limited to insults. Say a friend of mine gets an achievement, depending on how I say it (words matter A LOT more online because body language and tone of voice cannot be read over the internet), it could have different effects. If I say, "good god, what took you so long? Not only this is such a basic achievement, but you took forever to do it." the reaction is obviously negative. But I can also say "Hey, that's not bad at all. Isn't it great? i know how it feels to get [such and such]. Btw, you know there's a new method that could help you later on?" I can not only get the same message across, but the friendship just gained another plus. This shows that you don't need to always be "tough" to get a point across.

 

 

 

As for this related to runescape. It's a general "treat others the way you want them to treat you". The things are applicable ingame all the time. Think twice before you throw an insult at someone just to prove a point. Hold back a bit when you diminish someone's achievement just to promote your own. Coop vs Competitive?

 

 

 

Just like many things in life, there are two sides to the problem. As discussed earlier, there's the abuser who should cool down, or stop completely on the abuse. But there's also the person receiving the abuse who needs to understand how to deal with it (in a good way, so no cutting or hanging). This is where the argument of the age limit on runescape comes in. It's not something that I want to get into, but in general people who have gained maturity know how to deal with abuse better. So that's just another reason why runescape is NOT suitable for pre-teens who generally are less mature.

[ego_scorpion]

Dear qeltar:

 

 

 

 

 

The more I think about this thread, the more I realize how ... wrong it was to post this in the first place. Sorry, but I just can not see how you can justify posting this thread and making such an extreme comparison. The story happened over a year ago, why bring up that poor girl now? Countless people die every day for all sorts of reasons.

 

 

 

 

This is not just about MySpace, or one girl, or a couple of horrible, vindictive and heartless parents. This is about how the consequences of treating people cruelly on the Internet can have serious repercussionsÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ã

[ego_scorpion]

We should always give thought to others and the effect our behaviour has on them.

 

 

 

If we don't then our own lack of foresight can always come back to haunt us, especially if later we discover our words were the reasons others were seriously harmed. There is never an excuse to flame or insult another person.

 

 

 

 

Ill give you an example. I was in seers bank one day, buying supplys. Some kid was selling me stuff and I made my offer. He didnt like it and instead of saying he wants more he then proceeded to insult me. Thing is, he didnt stop with 1 or 2 insults, it went on for about 10 minutes. He followed me and kept cursing me off. So I called my player mod friend who plays on my home world and he came and saw the abusive things that kid was saying and took action.

 

 

 

Some people (and I doubt its adults) have no control over their emotions and anger and dont know when to stop. No amolunt of debating or internet posts will alter that unfortunately.

 

 

 

 

This can also occur among adults, even those who professionally should know how to cope with abuse. A state politician in an Australian committed suicide a year or so back. The politician whom I won't name had made a bad gaff at a party one evening that was caught on camera and subsequently splashed all over the media for several days. I'm sure none of the critics intended harm (beyond that person's political reputation), but that's why words we use are so important.

 

 

Now thats very sad and true. Media is out of control and those pesky journalists will often go way too far. You can even argue that they caused princess Diana to die.

 

 

 

 

If we are going to be critical we need to be precise, and ensure our comments aren't unfairly aimed at the person, and instead address the issue or cause of our criticism. Thoughtless criticism of another person's vulnerabilities can have devastating results for all concerned.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Fey.

 

 

 

Would you not agree that we as people also learn from critisism aimed at us? The point I keep trying to make is all people at some point grow up and learn things for themselves. Sad reality is that only way a person truely lerns is from their own mistakes, not through reading about the mistakes of others.

[MooseHole]

If looks could kill, I'd be really healthy after looking at that picture.

[meili]

Hanging one's self over a verbal insult is, in my opinion, a ridiculous extreme and I do not like those kinds of tactics used to make people more sensitive to an issue by presenting an unusual extreme.

 

 

 

Agreed. Qeltar didn't write the story he just quoted it but I feel it is a bad story that glosses over the possible real reasons. Before she killed herself her last words to her mother were "You're supposed to be no my side." Might it be she killed herself not just because of "Josh" but also because she felt her family was not supportive?

 

 

 

Just a thought. :P

[ego_scorpion]

 

Who Cares? We do (the people who realise the true implications of this story). It's obvious you don't. You only care for yourself.

 

 

You are judging him. Sure, his response was as ignorant as it was ultimately true (he just chose it to say in a cruel way), but that does not give someone else the right to judge them. lord_british, you are the perfect example of the people I was talking about, you proceed to judge and talk about high morals, when in reality you hastly resort to insults.

 

 

 

 

If your attitude towards others rubs off on those around you, who would you turn to when you need help? And if you did, what would you do when those people say to you "Haha!! emo noooob! go crawl away and die quietly. I don't care about you!" [obviously I 'm using the proper spellings whereas they would use numbers and symbols ;)] Attitudes like that are going to make you a very lonely adult when you finally reach adulthood (assuming you don't ever require emergency medical help for any reason beforehand ;))

 

 

 

 

Actualy, I can gurantee you nobody would say that in real life. Sure, people would say that on the internet, but they would say that regardless, because internet is full of ignorant and disrespectful people.

 

 

 

Qeltar makes a comparison between 2 concious adults delibrately tormenting a troubled girl and internet behavior as a whole, which is apples and oranges.

 

 

 

 

IF she was "attention seeking", wouldn't she have made a big fuss of "Going to my room and kill myself! You don't love me! you obviously think they're right and the world will be better off without me!!"?

 

But instead she, if not calmly, quietly went to her room, and methodically took her own life.

 

 

Actualy, consider how much attentnion the parents are getting now... makes me wonder.

 

 

 

 

Genuine people?? So she wasn't real? Her parents don't have to look at an empty chair at meal times? Her grave doesn't have to be attended to? Wait! What if you're not real too?! Does that mean we don't have to listen to you inane blatherings of "plastic-gangsta-isms"? Sure you can write a tough line, but I bet behind the psuedo-annonymity of the intarwebs, you've got feelings too, just like this girl, and everyone else in the world. Try to show a little compassion sometimes. You never know who's life you may change for the better ;)

 

 

 

 

Actualy, you misunderstood his statement. I do agree with him on this point, countless people die every day out of hunger, accidental deaths, murder, and so forth. Where is your bleeding heart for innocent victims? You cant be selectively merciful. Blowing 1 suicide out of proportion in comparison to all the other deaths seems pointless and infact a way to seek attentnion, by those who initiate it.

 

 

 

 

"Die for reasons they can't help"? #-o :wall: Most car crashes are accidents...but some aren't. They're lumped into accidents even when it's alcohol related, or innatention due to changing the radio station, or making a phone call, or putting on make-up, or rubber-necking the accident on the other side of the road...those could be helped, but they won't be. It's human nature.

 

 

You misunderstood the point he was making again and also, human nature is to be cruel as well. We are all cruel and liars and pretenders, some more than others, but anyone who denies this is just lying to him or her self.

 

 

 

 

Most people killed aren't in the vehicle causing the accident, they're totally innocent of breaking rules of the road, yet find themselves in situations where people die.

 

 

You are focusing too much on 1 example, look at the overall daily mortality issue as a whole, 1 suicide (regardless of cause) is insignificant on the larger scale.

 

 

 

 

This girl wasn't. She was rather effectively seduced by ADULTS. "Groomed" is the current buzz-word. These people are old enough to know better, they knew she was vulnerable, and yet STILL exploited her for their own sick "fun".

 

Now, how is a 13year old girl, whether suffering from depression or not, supposed to help herself facing experience and knowledge more than twice her own age? Whilst being lied to?

 

 

Ill say it again, I dont defend the heartless adults, but the girl was suicide risk. Chances are, something else would have triggered it eventualy anyways. Only thing I personaly cant understand is the girls parents not seeking a form of revenge, but thats from my own personal point of view.

 

 

 

 

I would respectfully submit, yer 'onours, that the only cabbage here, is you, and people with the same uncaring, unfeeling, repulsive attitudes like you and your fellow trolls.

 

 

 

Grow up, mature, lose the attitude, gain respect, and above all else, THINK.

 

 

 

And again, you resort to insults. If you want to be judgemental make sure you are qualified to judge, which you are not in my point of view so you are no better than him.

[MooseHole]

Hanging one's self over a verbal insult is, in my opinion, a ridiculous extreme and I do not like those kinds of tactics used to make people more sensitive to an issue by presenting an unusual extreme.

 

 

 

Agreed. Qeltar didn't write the story he just quoted it but I feel it is a bad story that glosses over the possible real reasons. Before she killed herself her last words to her mother were "You're supposed to be no my side." Might it be she killed herself not just because of "Josh" but also because she felt her family was not supportive?

 

 

 

Just a thought. :P

Her family was extremely supportive. They monitored her every move online. That's why she had such high self esteem! Oh wait.

 

 

 

I knew a girl in high school whose mother monitored her every action. I'd see her watch her from a distance at school. One time she actually met a boy on a field trip (her mother was a chaperone of course). When the girl and boy were going to cross the street, her mother took both of their hands and crossed with them. He pretty much ran off after that. Anyway, my point is she had extremely low self esteem, and I'm pretty sure it was because of her mother.

[ego_scorpion]

Regardless, suicides do not generally come out of the blue. They are in response to a specific trigger. She had been depressed for years; this event pushed her over the line.

 

 

 

A trigger only sets off what is already there. That is what the word itself means. She was like a loaded gun ready to go off at any provocation. A person with no mental illness wouldn't have any trivial triggers like Megan. Maybe a normal person would commit suicide over a terminal illness but they wouldn't kill themselves over an internet slur.

 

 

Agree 200%, its what ive been trying to say all along, but people refuse to understand :(

[qeltar]

Solidus, I enjoyed reading your reply, thank you.

 

 

 

Hanging one's self over a verbal insult is, in my opinion, a ridiculous extreme and I do not like those kinds of tactics used to make people more sensitive to an issue by presenting an unusual extreme.

 

...

 

That being said, you explained the article quite well in a way that did make me consider some issues in cyber-bullying. Not so much about verbal abuse (I'll get to that in a second) but more about what you said. Backstabbing, a friend destroying one's account

 

 

 

I just want to point out that I do not believe this girl killed herself over a "verbal insult". It was much more a matter of the betrayal issue you mentioned subsequently. Having someone do to you what was done here is horrifying, and when combined with depression can lead to a state of feeling overwhelmed and hopeless.

 

 

 

Also, I would like to reiterate that I specifically said in my article that I do NOT think that merely insulting someone in RuneScape would be likely to lead to this sort of tragic outcome. But it can still be damaging and harmful.

[Ice_and_Spec]

Very very true words, I always enjoy reading your work. Its true that behind the pixels on the screen there are real people who have real feelings. People with problems in real life may escape to a virtual world to find friends who may not base their opinions on looks and wealth etc. But when people insult them in this haven there is no where to turn in their minds. Thus things like this can happen, always be careful what you say even if your just being sarcastic.

very deep game and yes thats so true people can be very cruel :uhh:

[llamster]

[hide]

 

2) that girl is (was) an idiot. I have had severe depression since i was 12, and I have been beaten, taunted, and humiliated, but I would never kill myself from words of a loser.

 

 

 

sucks about the whole eternal damnation in hell, though

 

 

 

I've had similar afflictions as well and I think about suicide every day. Does that make me a moron too?

 

 

 

BTW, Hell doesn't exist. When you're dead you're dead. The end. Nothing afterwards.

 

 

 

Just because you think it's true doesn't mean it is. Darkpoop0 believes in hell, you have to respect that. Same for you, Dizzle.

 

 

 

Darkpoop0, stop being a jackass.

 

 

 

------

 

 

 

Qeltar, please post this on the RSOF, if you haven't already.

 

 

 

That's a banwish waiting to happen. The people on the RSOF are too ignorant to fully comprehend the gravity of both the Megan incident and the effects their behavior have on other people. They would most likely reply with "lol she got pwned" or "wot an idoit."

 

 

 

This post is supposed to make an impact. Putting it on the RSOF will make a far greater impact than it will here.

 

 

 

 

 

the OF is filled with 10 year olds complaing about losing their "blu pehat"

 

none of them are mature enough to comprehend anything above an episode of blue's clues

[/hide]

 

 

 

Is that true? Or is that a gross exagerration that your arrogant mind conjured to reinforce the idea that Tip.iters are better than RSOF-ers?

 

 

 

Qeltar, this thread is directed toward rude name-callers, right? I happen to know a place where there's a lot of those. That place also happens to have many mature, intelligent posters.

[Solidus_77]

Is that true? Or is that a gross exagerration that your arrogant mind conjured to reinforce the idea that Tip.iters are better than RSOF-ers?

 

 

 

It's common sense. Despite the many problems with this forum, it's simply divine compared to the RSOF.

 

 

 

Even if SOME rants here resemble SOME rants there, the author of the rant here has the decency of replying to posts. This isn't a service by the dwellers of the RSOF. This is one of MANY examples that displays their ignorance.

 

 

 

I know, SOME rants have a bit of value if you ignore the mindless idiots who reply

 

 

 

I just want to point out that I do not believe this girl killed herself over a "verbal insult". It was much more a matter of the betrayal issue you mentioned subsequently. Having someone do to you what was done here is horrifying, and when combined with depression can lead to a state of feeling overwhelmed and hopeless.

 

 

 

Fair enough, given those circumstances

 

 

 

Oh and people who called her emo. Depression is an actual serious psychological "state". An emo, is just a pessimistic whiner who wants to draw attention to him(/her)self. Accusing her of being emo is uncalled for.

 

 

 

Also, I would like to reiterate that I specifically said in my article that I do NOT think that merely insulting someone in RuneScape would be likely to lead to this sort of tragic outcome. But it can still be damaging and harmful.

 

 

 

Totally agreed! This thread is about the bigger issue of how people respond to our actions. Not a runescape version of this tragedy.

[andufusthebronze]

Okay then, few things.

 

 

 

1. Very eye opening.

 

2. It is true, adults can speak harsher tongues than kids can

 

3. Become a journilist. That was so gripping.

[lord_british]

 

Who Cares? We do (the people who realise the true implications of this story). It's obvious you don't. You only care for yourself.

 

 

You are judging him. Sure, his response was as ignorant as it was ultimately true (he just chose it to say in a cruel way), but that does not give someone else the right to judge them. lord_british, you are the perfect example of the people I was talking about, you proceed to judge and talk about high morals, when in reality you hastly resort to insults.

 

I am not judging him. I am merely stating the obvious.

 

Once again, as stated on countless threads : Ignorance is a state of lack of knowledge about something, NOT a behaviour. Your use of the word in that context makes you ignorant. How does his self-centred, and rather obnoxious reply make it ultimately true? It just shows he has little compassion or regard to his fellow humans.

 

 

 

 

If your attitude towards others rubs off on those around you, who would you turn to when you need help? And if you did, what would you do when those people say to you "Haha!! emo noooob! go crawl away and die quietly. I don't care about you!" [obviously I 'm using the proper spellings whereas they would use numbers and symbols ;)] Attitudes like that are going to make you a very lonely adult when you finally reach adulthood (assuming you don't ever require emergency medical help for any reason beforehand ;))

 

Actualy, I can gurantee you nobody would say that in real life. Sure, people would say that on the internet, but they would say that regardless, because internet is full of ignorant and disrespectful people.

 

 

 

Qeltar makes a comparison between 2 concious adults delibrately tormenting a troubled girl and internet behavior as a whole, which is apples and oranges.

 

Again, whether intentional or not, you're missing the point. Whether they would use those words in real life is a sophistric arguement at best. The intent is the issue.

 

 

 

Do you really think that the behaviour seen online suddenly appears magically as soon as anonymity is acheived? No, the behaviour shown online is just what is already present in a person, just given "free-reign" because the person sees "no harm, no foul".

 

 

 

These adults KNEW this girl was psychologically unstable, any reasonablely mature person would have known there may have been dire consequences with their actions, yet they still chose to gain her trust, exploit that trust, start little better than a smear/hate campaign against her, and all from the safety of a computer screen!

 

 

 

How is that an issue related to just 2 people and a little girl?

 

 

 

 

IF she was "attention seeking", wouldn't she have made a big fuss of "Going to my room and kill myself! You don't love me! you obviously think they're right and the world will be better off without me!!"?

 

But instead she, if not calmly, quietly went to her room, and methodically took her own life.

 

 

Actualy, consider how much attentnion the parents are getting now... makes me wonder.

 

Is there a point there? :-k Again, this issue is not JUST directed at the parents, either of the girl or of those that drove her to killing herself. It is about having a little thought before typing in something that may cause harm (however unintentional) to others online. Don't forget there are real PEOPLE behind that little pixel-avatar you see on the screen and not everyone of them may be having a good day, and the least little thing may just be enough to push them over that edge into doing something unconscionable.

 

 

 

 

Genuine people?? So she wasn't real? Her parents don't have to look at an empty chair at meal times? Her grave doesn't have to be attended to? Wait! What if you're not real too?! Does that mean we don't have to listen to you inane blatherings of "plastic-gangsta-isms"? Sure you can write a tough line, but I bet behind the psuedo-annonymity of the intarwebs, you've got feelings too, just like this girl, and everyone else in the world. Try to show a little compassion sometimes. You never know who's life you may change for the better ;)

 

 

 

 

Actualy, you misunderstood his statement. I do agree with him on this point, countless people die every day out of hunger, accidental deaths, murder, and so forth. Where is your bleeding heart for innocent victims? You cant be selectively merciful. Blowing 1 suicide out of proportion in comparison to all the other deaths seems pointless and infact a way to seek attentnion, by those who initiate it.

 

Actually, I understand his point all too well. You misunderstood me. My bleeding heart is in my bank account pay-outs overy month to people like "Red Cross", "NSPCC", "Oxfam", "Amnesty International". I do what I can, where I can. Even in online forums where I am forced to constantly make the same counter-points in many different ways, to the same inane, spurious arguements that have little validity to the issue at hand.

 

 

 

 

"Die for reasons they can't help"? #-o :wall: Most car crashes are accidents...but some aren't. They're lumped into accidents even when it's alcohol related, or innatention due to changing the radio station, or making a phone call, or putting on make-up, or rubber-necking the accident on the other side of the road...those could be helped, but they won't be. It's human nature.

 

You misunderstood the point he was making again and also, human nature is to be cruel as well. We are all cruel and liars and pretenders, some more than others, but anyone who denies this is just lying to him or her self.

 

Nope, again I understood his false reasoning all too well. He just doesn't want to admit to any sense of his, or those adults, actions online having any consequences at all in real life. This reasoning is utterly false, just as it is false in real life. You can deny and bluster all you want : reasonable people will always hold such statements up to the light of truth and law and morality.

 

Yes, Human nature is somewhat cruel, at least in childhood. Especially when in mob-mentality of a group of one kind, harrassing, bullying, tormenting someone they consider to be different and not worthy of their group status. Those that stand by and allow this to happen are just as guilty as the perpetrators. The "But there was nothing I could do to stop it" defence didn't work at NÃÆÃâÃâüremberg, as I recall, nor should it work in an online environment either.

 

You'll note I added Bold to part of your response. I would take it as a kindness if you wouldn't generalise that badly for the majority of people who DO feel compassion, and empathy towards their fellow people. Also, I am not cruel; I do not lie (if anything I am somewhat too honest for my own good - brutally honest in some cases;)); nor am I a pretender towards something I am not. I would make a large wager that there are more in these forums that would take the same umbrage towards your asinine statement there. I am well aware of my faults (I tend towards laziness, I am not particularly diligent towards paperwork to name two) and am quite capable of enumerating them myself, without some online person who has never met me making broad assumptions about me, and others.

 

 

 

 

Most people killed aren't in the vehicle causing the accident, they're totally innocent of breaking rules of the road, yet find themselves in situations where people die.

 

 

You are focusing too much on 1 example, look at the overall daily mortality issue as a whole, 1 suicide (regardless of cause) is insignificant on the larger scale.

 

No, I was responding in the same analogy used by the other person. Want another analogy? Let's return to your complete dismissal of "personal responsability" with tools. It is the duty of the person wielding the tool (whether a car, drill, or computer) to use said tool in the manner that it was designed for, in as responsible a manner as can be expected from any REASONABLE person. Not to go and use it irresponsibly to smack someone's skull in, drive drunk, or cause so much distress to a vulnerable child she hangs herself in her bedroonm closet.

 

Do you get the point now? Or do you have yet more shallow, invalid arguements?

 

 

 

 

This girl wasn't. She was rather effectively seduced by ADULTS. "Groomed" is the current buzz-word. These people are old enough to know better, they knew she was vulnerable, and yet STILL exploited her for their own sick "fun".

 

Now, how is a 13year old girl, whether suffering from depression or not, supposed to help herself facing experience and knowledge more than twice her own age? Whilst being lied to?

 

 

Ill say it again, I dont defend the heartless adults, but the girl was suicide risk. Chances are, something else would have triggered it eventualy anyways. Only thing I personaly cant understand is the girls parents not seeking a form of revenge, but thats from my own personal point of view.

 

The point isn't that she may or may not have been "triggered" to kill herself in the future. The point is that these two adults KNOWING she was vulnerable, gained her trust using a FAKE identity, exploited her for whatever information they wanted from her, then started a smear campaign, while she believed she was speaking to a real person. Yet how does your actual comments tally with your "I dont defend the heartless adults"? I would suggest you look closely at your points again, because you have done little except to shift the blame to "everyone is an [wagon] online - you can't blame the internet for this - the girl was at fault for being so sensitive and emo" I'm sorry, but again, that defence does not, never has, nor ever will hold an iota of water in any moral, legal or practical way.

 

 

 

 

I would respectfully submit, yer 'onours, that the only cabbage here, is you, and people with the same uncaring, unfeeling, repulsive attitudes like you and your fellow trolls.

 

 

 

Grow up, mature, lose the attitude, gain respect, and above all else, THINK.

 

 

 

And again, you resort to insults. If you want to be judgemental make sure you are qualified to judge, which you are not in my point of view so you are no better than him.

 

Are constructive critiscisms insults? Are you perhaps as sensitive to critiscism as that 13 year old girl was?

 

 

 

I recall a thread where someone said, without naming ANY NAMES AT ALL, that there were two classes of merchants :

 

The honest merchant that everyone likes and uses at some point, and,

 

The Vulture class that gives all merchants a bad name, by exploiting people's ignorance about real prices of items and buying far too cheaply, or selling far too dearly (basically scamming).

 

 

 

Then a second person seemed to think this statement about the second class of merchants was directed at him personally, and made several flaming, and insulting comments directed at the first person, over several threads/topics, even to the point one of his posts got deleted and hidden.

 

 

 

I call that a guilty conscience. :-w What would you call it Ego? :-k

 

 

 

Answers on a postcard, please.

[Myweponsg00d]

This is so stupid. It is a shame that people are stupid enough to kill themselves over being mistreated. I say suck it up. I've had to come face to face with the most terrible people in the world (aka 4chan, somethingawful, etc etc) and I have never once thought of harming myself because of something they said. Not even people in real life can have that effect on me. If people are so emotionally unstable that they kill themselves over "harmful" words, then I say good riddance. Natural selection in motion.

 

 

 

I don't harass people online because I have nothing to prove. Achieving a victory online has no more satisfaction than that of picking a booger out of your nose.

[ego_scorpion]

 

I am not judging him. I am merely stating the obvious.

 

Once again, as stated on countless threads : Ignorance is a state of lack of knowledge about something, NOT a behaviour. Your use of the word in that context makes you ignorant. How does his self-centred, and rather obnoxious reply make it ultimately true? It just shows he has little compassion or regard to his fellow humans.

 

 

You are using big words + insults yet avoid the statement. You know why you dont care (despite saying you do)? because you are not going to lose sleep over it. Because its not the same as losing your own child, relative, or a friend. People can say they care or pretend to, but until it hits too close to home they dont.

 

 

 

 

Again, whether intentional or not, you're missing the point. Whether they would use those words in real life is a sophistric arguement at best. The intent is the issue.

 

Do you really think that the behaviour seen online suddenly appears magically as soon as anonymity is acheived? No, the behaviour shown online is just what is already present in a person, just given "free-reign" because the person sees "no harm, no foul".

 

 

 

 

I agree with you, so then people who arent fit to handle such abuse should not visit the internet. Millions of people will not change and suddenly care for troubled children listening, im sorry it might be harsh, but its true.

 

 

 

 

These adults KNEW this girl was psychologically unstable, any reasonablely mature person would have known there may have been dire consequences with their actions, yet they still chose to gain her trust, exploit that trust, start little better than a smear/hate campaign against her, and all from the safety of a computer screen!

 

 

 

How is that an issue related to just 2 people and a little girl?

 

 

How it is apples and oranges? very simple. 2 adults delibartely tormenting someone they know in real life versus ignorant children or grown men running their mouth on the internet. The 2 are related, but not the same.

 

 

 

 

Is there a point there?

 

 

Ever watch a detective movie and wonder who the killer is? Considering how much attentnion the parents are getting there is always a chance that they did it in the first place to get attentnion nd become known? Stupid? Yes! - possible? sure...

 

 

 

 

Actually, I understand his point all too well. You misunderstood me. My bleeding heart is in my bank account pay-outs overy month to people like "Red Cross", "NSPCC", "Oxfam", "Amnesty International". I do what I can, where I can. Even in online forums where I am forced to constantly make the same counter-points in many different ways, to the same inane, spurious arguements that have little validity to the issue at hand.

 

 

Pointless response and giving 5$ a month or whatever to a chairty doesnt help, people are still dying eh? But you have your opinions I have mine, fact of the matter is this issue is blown out of proportion and a crazy comparison is being made.

 

 

 

 

Yes, Human nature is somewhat cruel, at least in childhood. Especially when in mob-mentality of a group of one kind, harrassing, bullying, tormenting someone they consider to be different and not worthy of their group status.

 

 

A good example, so we agree then that people are cruel. One thing varies, the who (abuser), who (abusee), and how, but aside from them its pretty much same thing. So that brings me to my point - just because in this case its 2 self consious adults how is it any different? Trying to turn this into "be nice on the internet" crusade is futile sadly.

 

 

 

 

Those that stand by and allow this to happen are just as guilty as the perpetrators. The "But there was nothing I could do to stop it" defence didn't work at NÃÆÃâÃâüremberg, as I recall, nor should it work in an online environment either.

 

 

As opposed to making a thread about it that wont even reach 1% of internet users, that will surely get people to be nice on the internet right?

 

 

 

So now you are comparing internet bullies to nazis... ?

 

 

 

 

I would take it as a kindness if you wouldn't generalise that badly for the majority of people who DO feel compassion, and empathy towards their fellow people. Also, I am not cruel; I do not lie (if anything I am somewhat too honest for my own good - brutally honest in some cases;)); nor am I a pretender towards something I am not

 

 

Im sure if you think back you can think of countless times that you did those things. Not gonna argue this point with you, I was stating the nature of human kind in general.

 

 

 

 

I would make a large wager that there are more in these forums that would take the same umbrage towards your asinine statement there. I am well aware of my faults (I tend towards laziness, I am not particularly diligent towards paperwork to name two) and am quite capable of enumerating them myself, without some online person who has never met me making broad assumptions about me, and others.

 

 

Wasnt making assumptions about you, was describing human characteristics, but if I had to make one id call you rude, quick to judge and disrespectful.

 

 

 

 

No, I was responding in the same analogy used by the other person. Want another analogy? Let's return to your complete dismissal of "personal responsability" with tools. It is the duty of the person wielding the tool (whether a car, drill, or computer) to use said tool in the manner that it was designed for, in as responsible a manner as can be expected from any REASONABLE person. Not to go and use it irresponsibly to smack someone's skull in, drive drunk, or cause so much distress to a vulnerable child she hangs herself in her bedroonm closet.

 

Do you get the point now? Or do you have yet more shallow, invalid arguements?

 

 

Please, respond some more with insults, calling people shallow and ignorant, that makes you look right and intelligent. You somehow managed to respond to the statement that 1 girls death is irrelevant on large enough scale into insulting me, very nice.

 

 

 

 

The point isn't that she may or may not have been "triggered" to kill herself in the future. The point is that these two adults KNOWING she was vulnerable, gained her trust using a FAKE identity, exploited her for whatever information they wanted from her, then started a smear campaign, while she believed she was speaking to a real person. Yet how does your actual comments tally with your "I dont defend the heartless adults"? I would suggest you look closely at your points again, because you have done little except to shift the blame to "everyone is an [wagon] online - you can't blame the internet for this - the girl was at fault for being so sensitive and emo" I'm sorry, but again, that defence does not, never has, nor ever will hold an iota of water in any moral, legal or practical way.

 

 

After this response im not sure if youve bothered to read what I said. I was talking about a form of revenge from parents, I wasnt looking for more judgement. Im not shifting the blame, im saying exactly same thing as someone else said. Suicide is a state of mind that needs a trigger. She got her trigger from 2 heartless adults, had it not been for them she may have gotten it elsewhere. Not talking about blame here but rather explaining what had happend.

 

 

 

 

Are constructive critiscisms insults? Are you perhaps as sensitive to critiscism as that 13 year old girl was?

 

 

Oh so calling someone ignorant, shallow, and vast variety of other insults you resorted to is constructive critisism? Ok, here is mine for you. I dont expect you to know the meaning, so feel free to visit the links.

 

 

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/self%20righteous

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=hypocrite

 

 

 

 

I call that a guilty conscience. What would you call it Ego?

 

 

 

Answers on a postcard, please.

 

 

 

 

Thank you captain obvious about the ego part as if I didnt put it there on purpose :)

 

Calling people smart enough to conserve their money vultures is pure jealousy out of inability to do so themselves. I treat ignorant arrogant clueless self righteous hipocrites the way they deserve to be treated. Only difference is I dont pretend to be what I am not. I am what I am and I stay by it.

 

 

 

Feel free to not respond at all seing how youve not convinced me of your ability to comprehend what you are reading.

[qeltar]

ego_scorpion and lord_british - if you do not both stop immediately I will have this thread locked.

 

 

 

ego_scorpion, your repeated attempts to derail this thread are not appreciated. Why the moderators are allowing this to continue I do not know, but I hope this is just an oversight, otherwise it's certainly not making me feel like continuing to start interesting topics here.

[ego_scorpion]

off topic response

 

 

 

Dear qeltar, I am in no way form or shape attempting to derail the thread. I am debating my persona views on the matter with lord_british and responding to his statements.

 

 

 

If you want to further discuss this matter with me you can respond to my 2 previous posts directed at you. Sorry, I did not think that debating the subject and responding to things posted at me was an attempt to derail this matter, I will make a specific notation from now on in order to avoid miscommunication and confusion.

 

 

 

I hope this answers your question if not feel free to respond through the use of pm's in order to reduce the # of off topic responses.

 

 

 

ps. there is a lot of other off topic responses here and all sorts of points of view.

[meili]

Alright, I guess I agree with the general point, just not the specific story you illustrated it with. It's just very extreme when there is really a lot of verbal abuse and betrayal everyday.

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

No condolences for the family.

 

 

 

Agreed, who cares, 1 emo down.

 

 

 

All I have to say to these comments is that I am happy for the both of you. The only way anyone can have these views is if they are both young and lucky enough that they've never had to live with depression or other serious issues. I hope you remain care-free and ignorant enough to be this judgmental of others for as long as possible. Enjoy it while you can.

 

 

 

Because people are responsible for their own actions that were not directly caused by physical intervention of another person.

 

 

 

This is false both in terms of ethics and as a matter of law. I could give countless examples.

 

 

 

 

In other words, yeah hate the parents if you like but they did *not* cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

Were it not for their actions, there is no doubt in my mind that the girl would be alive today. They did cause the girl to kill herself.

 

 

Normal people do not kill themselves over some one harassing them on msn, myspace or even irl.

 

 

The people who did this knew the girl and what her condition was. That makes what they did all the worse.

 

 

 

The larger point is that when someone bullies another on the Internet, you never know what the impact will be on the other person.

 

 

 

Qeltar, you upset me by arguing back. I'm going to kill myself now. (No I'm not going to kill myself, because I am intelligent)

 

 

 

Read that, and think to yourself how that sounds.

 

 

 

"This is false both in terms of ethics and as a matter of law. I could give countless examples."

 

 

 

In terms of ethics that's true. In terms of law, it is not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Qeltar, you're a smart guy and you post a lot of interesting things... your website is pretty nice as well. But can you please not post threads like this anymore? They're too controversial and can lead to stupid arguments and comments, as well as flaming.

 

 

 

Oh yes, let's all just stick out heads in the sand and pretend that the world is cherry.

 

 

 

Isn't the purpose of a forum to debate issues?

 

 

 

And yes, as someone said earlier, there is a definite lack of compassion in this thread. Just think how much worse it'd be if Qeltar posted the story in the RSOF. I literally would expect someone to post "lol she got owned, wot an emo noob."

 

 

 

Oh, and I personally loathe the term "emo." Popular culture has used it to completely defile what depression truly is. These days, anyone who is depressed or has suicidal thoughts is labeled as an emo... It is pure ignorance and is quite infuriating. I would bet one thousand dollars you wouldn't go before Megan's parents' face and call their daughter a 'pathetic emo.' Anyone who uses that term should be kicked in the genitals.

 

 

 

1000 dollars to insult someone?! Of course I'd take the bet... nothing like easy money.

[syal_antilli]

what an idiot, wasting her life like that over some stupid guy, *cabbage* all men i say.

[Stealth_Ltd]

lol what a stupid girl, well she was stupid, now shes dead...anyways are we allowed to say [bleep] here now? i read it on the post, what happened to the trigger happy mods? nah i'm just kidding, you self obsessed morons are alright :-w

[Gold_Tiger10]

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21882976/?GT1=10547

 

 

 

Justice, for the win?