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Is God real post your thoughts!


Joes_So_Cool

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Who said I have a lack of faith?

 

 

 

I go to CCD (Sunday School) every week.

 

 

 

I'm just looking for something to prove to me that god is in fact real.

 

 

 

~Joe.

 

 

 

The Prophecy of Revelations states that the world is supposed to end at the 7th week of the 7th day of David. In translation it is going to take 500 years for the prophecy occur (A week was 70 years in "Bible times", it all adds up but how don't remember exactly how). Which leaves 7 years for left over for the Tribulation which is actually the end of the Earth. Thus far every event outlined in Revelations has come true other than the final 7 years of the prophecy. The chances of the whole prophecy being coincedence are 2 billion to 1. If that doesn't convince, I don't know what will. Although I may not be thought a liable source. I did only take one bibliography class for one semester.

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(1) No.

 

 

 

Well, that explains that.

 

 

 

(2) I'm an atheist and I don't believe either of those things (though I'd probably see number 2 the way you do). I guess that makes me not part of the 'general' atheists. Where did you read that atheists believe these things?

 

 

 

Simple extrapolation of atheist arguments.

 

 

 

1.) Being an atheist you naturally agree with this statement. God doesn't exist unless He's proved to exist as, until then, His existence is unsubstantiated and, in your mind, equal to believing in the FSM or the IPU.

 

 

 

2.) Since you agree, no problems here.

 

 

 

"As far as I know, atheists don't believe in something untill it's in some way proven to exist, they don't believe it doesn't exist."

 

 

 

I still don't get what you're trying to say here. I agree with the first part, but the part after the comma confuses me.

 

 

 

In my experience atheists don't say "that which is unproven dosen't exist", they merely don't believe in that which is unproven.

 

 

 

Erm... Are you reading the same thread I am? Here's a quote from just a few responses ago.

 

 

 

They (or the genetical mutation thereof, whichever is correct in this case, haven't looked into the genetics of a black swan) did exist, but mentioning a black, magenta or bright red swan in a debate is fiction until you have conclusive evidence of the thing's existence (such as live footage, or an actual black swan which is now known to exist).

 

 

 

The title of the thread asks the question is God real. Two or so responses say they don't believe in God; The rest of them state that God doesn't exist based on a lack of empirical evidence. Re-read the thread. It's plain as day :P

 

 

 

To sum that up, my only gripe with you is how you can say most atheists believe something like "if it isn't proven, it dosen't exist". Where did you hear this?

 

 

 

Erm... Joke? >_>

 

 

 

Edit: I realize that last response said offered very little in the way of a discussion, so I'll add to it. Some people are able to view atheism as a philosophy, and thusly can debate without relegating this to a simple "Proof vs. no proof" debate (Which is boring, to say the least). Most, however, cannot. Take this thread for instance; The time I offered up a discussion regarding free will in the context of religion it was ignored in favor of the "There's no empirical evidence of God's existence" argument. Even now, two or so pages later, no one's bothered to respond to it. Oh well...

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(1) No.

 

 

 

Well, that explains that.

 

 

 

(2) I'm an atheist and I don't believe either of those things (though I'd probably see number 2 the way you do). I guess that makes me not part of the 'general' atheists. Where did you read that atheists believe these things?

 

 

 

(A) Simple extrapolation of atheist arguments.

 

 

 

1.) Being an atheist you naturally agree with this statement. God doesn't exist unless He's proved to exist as, until then, His existence is unsubstantiated and, in your mind, equal to believing in the FSM or the IPU.

 

 

 

2.) Since you agree, no problems here.

 

 

 

"As far as I know, atheists don't believe in something untill it's in some way proven to exist, they don't believe it doesn't exist."
(B) I still don't get what you're trying to say here. I agree with the first part, but the part after the comma confuses me.

 

 

 

In my experience atheists don't say "that which is unproven dosen't exist", they merely don't believe in that which is unproven.
© Erm... Are you reading the same thread I am? Here's a quote from just a few responses ago.

 

 

 

They (or the genetical mutation thereof, whichever is correct in this case, haven't looked into the genetics of a black swan) did exist, but mentioning a black, magenta or bright red swan in a debate is fiction until you have conclusive evidence of the thing's existence (such as live footage, or an actual black swan which is now known to exist).
The title of the thread asks the question is God real. Two or so responses say they don't believe in God; (D) The rest of them state that God doesn't exist based on a lack of empirical evidence. Re-read the thread. It's plain as day :P

 

 

 

To sum that up, my only gripe with you is how you can say most atheists believe something like "if it isn't proven, it dosen't exist". Where did you hear this?

 

 

 

(E) Erm... Joke? >_>

 

 

 

(A) No, you're misrepresenting all atheism as strong atheism, so I don't naturally agree with the statement "god dosen't exist unless he's proven to exist". Weak atheists do not subscribe to any belief or truth statement such as "god does not exist". We may see him as realistic as the FSM etc but that's not to say we claim they don't exist just because of lack of evidence. Weak atheists merely lack belief in all such ideas and nothing more.

 

 

 

(B) You clearly think that all atheists maintain some sort of belief in the proposition that god dosen't exist. This is wrong. Lack of positive belief for a concept (i.e. "I don't believe in god") doesn't necessitate belief in the antithesis of it (i.e. "I believe god does not exist").

 

 

 

© You've got one person out of the whole thread and you think that gives you artistic license to extrapolate that view over all atheists? As above, in doing so you're misrepresenting all atheists as strong atheists and in my experience, weak atheists far outnumber strong. Did you notice this comment of BlueLancer's?:

That being said, I don't at all close out the possibility a God/other entity could had created the first atoms or set in motion time/particles.
Damn, looks like that pesky word 'possibility' makes the idea that BlueLancer believes that god does not exist because he's not proven null and void. By the way he was making a point about an unproven idea's place in debate. Also, didn't you notice that he said "they did exist" in reference to the swans? To me this would clearly indicate he does not believe that they popped into existence as soon as there was proof for their existence, which is what you'd have us all think is what atheists believe.

 

 

 

(D) Are you sure about this? I seriously doubt all the atheists here believe or state that god dosen't exist merely because there's no evidence for him or he's not proven. Do they lack belief in him because of lack of empirical evidence? Sure. As for thinking a result of this lack of evidence is that he dosen't exist, I seriously doubt that's true of many of the people here. If you expect me to re-read this thread so you don't have to support your claim just because you say it's "plain as day", then think again. If it's so clear to you, quote at least one person other than BlueLancer who states that god dosen't exist because there's no evidence for him (ahh hell, go nuts, show me 10, after all, all but two atheist posters say what you claim they do) even though it's debatable that BlueLancer believes this at all.

 

 

 

(E) No.

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Here we go again....

Your name is "bet you fail", and you're starting a business with your mom? I'm not even going to touch that.....
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So here's my thoughts : God is real. Seeing is believing, but not in the case of God. Hence, this is called faith. You know why? 'cause not all things can be seen, but they still do exist. :shame: And free will is an ILLUSION created by the higher authority (aka God) In fact, God has seen the future, the choices we make in life (to believe or not believe in Him, for example). So, I have a question to atheists out there : If y'all don't believe in God, do you believe in having a soul? If you do, then it doesn't make sense, since God and soul is somehow related. 8-)

[oh man... come on.. i didnt do that bad to your modesty... and i was drunk! you were not! you took advantage of me... wildernessfreelancer!]

Yep, that's what they'll always say, LoL.

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I think that you cannot prove that God does not exist, or that he does exist.

 

 

 

There really is no firm evidence that there is an ethereal entity watching over us. Also, you can just describe our evoloution as magic I guess. How did that single cell become multi-cellular organisms like us? Noone really knows the answer to that question, and if we do, then we will possibly be able to understand theological debates from a different perspective.

 

 

 

___________________

 

"what does wat mean?"

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If a man is not a worker, he is nothing.

BOSS.

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God IS real.

 

 

 

Now before all you atheists get all "OMFG God cant be t3h r34l b3cuz j00 h4v no pr00fs." on me, I would just like to point something out.

 

 

 

You believe in evolution, right? Yet, you can't take pictures or videos of a species evolving, or such things like that.. All you can make is educated guesses based on fossil records..

 

 

 

You believe in quantum mechanics, right? Yet you can't really track the movement of electrons or really put a cat in a box with a vial of poison and record the universe splitting..

 

 

 

God is a matter of faith, as are virtually all unproven theories in science.. You are so quick to believe anything with "science" tacked on the front of it, yet when it comes to faith you push it aside as "stories"...

 

 

 

The Bible is a set of guidelines on how to live our lives, not a accurate historical manual. It was written as man's interpretation of God's teachings.. thus, you find many areas of the Bible were it contradicts itself, particularly in the New Testament vs. the Old Testament. Does this mean that the lessons it teaches are lies? No!

 

 

 

About the argument that there is no God because we have this, this, and this- This world isn't perfect! It was never meant to be! It it was, we wouldn't have heaven! God sent us here to learn something.. about ourselves, about the world, about the nature of good and evil.. heaven's the reward at the end of the journey.

 

 

 

I don't know all the answers, I'll admit it. But.. If these is no God, why even bother being a good person?? Why can't I just go rob a bank or massacre an entire race? Why not live my life simply for my own pleasure, being a total arse to everyone I meet because it benefits me? So I'm curious atheists.. What's keeping you from doing these things??

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Here be dragons ^

 

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You know why? 'cause not all things can be seen, but they still do exist. :shame:

 

 

 

 

So how can you tell a child Santa claus or toothfairy actually does not exist (just because they 'can't be seen'), but a God does?

 

 

 

 

And free will is an ILLUSION created by the higher authority (aka God) In fact, God has seen the future, the choices we make in life (to believe or not believe in Him, for example)

 

 

 

Says, or proves who? The Bible? Do you really believe the humans who have written every single letter of the Bible were somehow in direct contact with God?

 

 

 

Why, all of a sudden, is this "direct contact" impossible in the year 2007?

 

 

 

Let's take, as an alternative, the islamic faith (on which for example my father's faith is loosely based on). The entire religion is based on Muhammad's hallucinatory experiences with God and believing he directly spoke with God himself.

 

 

 

However, hallucinatory experiences especially related to religion, are in modern medicine treated as psychosis or schitzophrenia. What is to say Muhammad or Jesus were not affected by that disease?

 

 

 

What proof, archaeological or factual, is there to support any of the people in history (thousands of people) who claimed to speak with God were not under the influence of a disease?

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You know why? 'cause not all things can be seen, but they still do exist. :shame:

 

 

 

 

So how can you tell a child Santa claus or toothfairy actually does not exist (just because they 'can't be seen'), but a God does?

 

You twist his words, that's not at all what he was talking about!

 

 

 

He meant the atoms and particles that can't be seen but are still there... and such subatomic particles, and even smaller things such as quarks.. as well as the tiny strings in String Theory.. You can't see those, yet you believe in them without question.

 

 

 

 

However, hallucinatory experiences especially related to religion, are in modern medicine treated as psychosis or schitzophrenia. What is to say Muhammad or Jesus were not affected by that disease?

 

Jesus

 

A) Wasn't hallucinating in that sense

 

B) How could the majority of these people have the exact same hallucination? The many people who wrote the bible, Muhamed, Jesus, A few of the Catholic Popes, Mother Theresa, Joan of Arc, several of the Apostles, Solomon, David, Issac.. Don't you think they would be more creative??

 

C) You can ether dismiss his teaching as "hallucinations" or believe in them, that's you choice. But until you bring me his medical records, I refuse to believe that Jesus had schitzophrenia.

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Here be dragons ^

 

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What is to say Muhammad or Jesus were not affected by that disease?

 

 

 

Any rational human can look at Jesus' teachings and know that he wasn't mentally ill; can you name a schizophrenic that has developed any kind of following whatsoever?

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You know why? 'cause not all things can be seen, but they still do exist. :shame:

 

 

 

 

So how can you tell a child Santa claus or toothfairy actually does not exist (just because they 'can't be seen'), but a God does?

 

You twist his words, that's not at all what he was talking about!

 

 

 

He meant the atoms and particles that can't be seen but are still there... and such subatomic particles, and even smaller things such as quarks.. as well as the tiny strings in String Theory.. You can't see those, yet you believe in them without question.

 

 

 

 

Maybe you misunderstood me on purpose. I can see atoms and particles using a strong enough microscope, which is the highest form of proof a person can attain (personal witnessing of the truthfulness of a thing's existence), which is why I believe in them without question.

 

 

 

How exactly can I see a God? How did all those thousands of people in history "speak" to a God? (Which is up to your faith to believe, heck, mormons believe a guy just 200 years ago recieved golden plates from an angel in the U.S.. People can be apparently made to believe anything, no offense to any mormons here)

 

 

 

Any rational human can look at Jesus' teachings and know that he wasn't mentally ill; can you name a schizophrenic that has developed any kind of following whatsoever?

 

 

 

The teachings and values of Jesus and Muhammad are one of the purest in the world, which I give more value over just about any other philosopher.

 

 

 

I just find it ridiculous you'd blindly believe they had some sort of "paranormal experiences" (such as Muhammad ascending in the sky while being alive and talking to angels, or Jesus walking on water and healing the blind with a wave of his hand). Believing in hallucinations is a totally normal symptom of schitzophrenia.

 

 

 

There is absolutely nothing to suggest this is possible, other than the thesis "God did it". It's a shame humans probably wont be able to build a time machine to see what really happened 2000 years ago, why exactly then did a crack appear in laws of nature, allowing certain humans to walk on water and transform substances? Just because "God" did it?

 

 

 

C) You can ether dismiss his teaching as "hallucinations" or believe in them, that's you choice. But until you bring me his medical records, I refuse to believe that Jesus had schitzophrenia.

 

 

 

I don't dismiss teachings by any major person of a known religion. I have read the Bible and Qur'an multiple times.

 

 

 

What I dismiss is their supposed "supernatural powers" which could've been

 

 

 

1. Tricks

 

2. Hallucinations

 

3. Totally made up

 

 

 

All the proof you have of 'supernaturality' is a human-written text which simply says "it happened". What authority does such a book have?

 

 

 

But hey, if you can prove any kind of supernaturality exists, James Randi still has his fund of $1 million open to anyone who can give proof they have, for example, the ability to communicate with God or perform supernatural acts.

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You know why? 'cause not all things can be seen, but they still do exist. :shame:

 

 

 

 

So how can you tell a child Santa claus or toothfairy actually does not exist (just because they 'can't be seen'), but a God does?

 

You twist his words, that's not at all what he was talking about!

 

 

 

He meant the atoms and particles that can't be seen but are still there... and such subatomic particles, and even smaller things such as quarks.. as well as the tiny strings in String Theory.. You can't see those, yet you believe in them without question.

 

 

 

 

Maybe you misunderstood me on purpose. I can see atoms and particles using a strong enough microscope, which is the highest form of proof a person can attain (personal witnessing of the truthfulness of a thing's existence), which is why I believe in them without question.

 

 

 

How exactly can I see a God? How did all those thousands of people in history "speak" to a God? (Which is up to your faith to believe, heck, mormons believe a guy just 200 years ago recieved golden plates from an angel in the U.S.. People can be apparently made to believe anything, no offense to any mormons here)

 

 

 

Maybe you misunderstood me on purpose? You can hardly watch an electron teleport around the room!

 

 

 

If you know how fast an electron is moving, you can't know were it is. If you know the location of an electron, you can't tell how fast it's going.

 

 

 

Is this any less "absurd" than the existence of a God?? Yet, once again, you accept it as fact without question.

 

 

 

Plus, how do you know that Pluto exists?? Yes, you may have seen pictures of it, but pictures can be doctored! You have never seen, felt, or touched Pluto yet you accept that it exists!

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Here be dragons ^

 

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Plus, how do you know that Pluto exists?? Yes, you may have seen pictures of it, but pictures can be doctored! You have never seen, felt, or touched Pluto yet you accept that it exists!

 

 

 

I just don't understand... This feels like a kindergarden discussion five-year olds have. I wont be even bothered to extensively prove why the planet Pluto exists even though I have never seen or touched it. This is no longer an intellectual debate, you're just finding the worst arguments and trying to justify God's existence with them. "You haven't seen pluto and it exists, thus God must also exist because you haven't seen him!"

 

 

 

Warrior/insane/etc, have fun posting real arguments... :) I'll check this article back in a week or so (hopefully to find a bit more mature and scientific debate about the existence, or possible existence of a God)

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Plus, how do you know that Pluto exists?? Yes, you may have seen pictures of it, but pictures can be doctored! You have never seen, felt, or touched Pluto yet you accept that it exists!

 

You're starting to sound like a Flat Earth believer, talking about doctored photos of Pluto. :lol:

 

 

 

Have you ever seen, felt, or touched God? How can you be so sure that God had any influence on the Bible?

 

 

 

Personally, I think the modern scientific community is a lot easier (and more logical) to trust than a group of Jesus' disciples who lived thousands of years ago.

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Plus, how do you know that Pluto exists?? Yes, you may have seen pictures of it, but pictures can be doctored! You have never seen, felt, or touched Pluto yet you accept that it exists!

 

 

 

I just don't understand... This feels like a kindergarden discussion five-year olds have. I wont be even bothered to extensively prove why the planet Pluto exists even though I have never seen or touched it. This is no longer an intellectual debate, you're just finding the worst arguments and trying to justify God's existence with them.

 

 

 

Warrior/insane/etc, have fun posting real arguments... :) I'll check this article back in a week or so (hopefully to find a bit more mature and scientific debate about the existence, or possible existence of a God)

 

 

 

A) All the people you mentioned are atheists

 

B) Wow.. just because I have a different opinion than you doesn't mean I'm a "Kindergardener". Would you like another example?? You seemed to ignore my one on Quantum theory..

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Here be dragons ^

 

Dragon of the Day

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However, hallucinatory experiences especially related to religion, are in modern medicine treated as psychosis or schitzophrenia. What is to say Muhammad or Jesus were not affected by that disease?

 

This isn't true.

 

Hallucinations, especially those related to religion and spirituality, can occur in a wide variety of healthy individuals. Take a look at hypnagogic states, psychedelic drugs and out of body experiences for more info.

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No.

 

 

 

I'm an agnostic, so if i would be wrong i'd accept the fact that he/she/it is real but i still wouldn't become a religious person.

 

 

 

I do understand that it can be comforting in hard times (i.e. someone in your family died, or so), but i cannot see how you can believe something that is imaginary.

 

 

 

How many millions of animals (humans are animals!) have died due to religion X?

 

God...

 

If he/she/it would be real, why do we have so much crap on our planet?

 

And i can't see any form of scientific proof of that god did ever exist?

 

 

 

It is a human-make-belief-thing.

 

 

 

-----

 

I am not very well read about this, I am interested about history but not religion. So what i say is completely my own thoughts and not so much from books...

 

"disclaimer"

J'adore aussi le sexe et les snuff movies

Je trouve que ce sont des purs moments de vie

Je ne me reconnais plus dans les gens

Je suis juste un cas désespérant

Et comme personne ne viendra me réclamer

Je terminerai comme un objet retrouvé

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Hmm...one finds a forum to be a most excellent tool for procrastination. Without the lack of better things to do, I'll just put in my two cents. There have been some good points, made. I agree with Igor that you can not prove the existence of God through empirical means, however, to assume that merely because man lacks the capability to prove something, it does not exist is most arrogant. The grasp of man's reason can hardly be the standard of existence. If that were, true many phenomena we know today only came into being as we discovered them. I apologize for being slightly rambling and perhaps moderately (or more than moderately) incomprehensible. Aquinas put it rather well when he wrote "the truth of the intelligible things of God is twofold, one to which the inquiry of reason can attain, the other which surpasses the whole range of human reason"

Cieco mondo...cieco mondo

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allowing certain humans to walk on water and transform substances? Just because "God" did it?

 

 

 

I don't believe Christ was merely human but we'll disagree there as well.

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BlueLancer, I have to disagree with you on the point you made regarding the Declaration. If you take out the phrase "by their Creator" as you did, one rightly arrives at the conclusion that:

 

 

 

"It doesn't matter "who" or "what" granted the people those unalienable rights. They exist because people agree they should." (Please pardon my inability to figure out how to put the quote in nice blue box format =P)

 

 

 

The problem with this is that if rights are what people agree upon and then people later agree that rights should be something different, those rights are no longer unalienable.

Cieco mondo...cieco mondo

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Well, the only thing I have to say after reading all those pages filled with complexificated logicophilosophic arguments is that the "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights" line is in the U.S. Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

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Early to bed and early to rise makes a man sleepy and blind in the eyes.

Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!

If it's the thought that counts, why aren't humans innately telepathic?

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I find it very funny when everything else is proven obsolete about Christianity, that most Christians will say "But that's just faith".

 

 

 

I don't understand the logic there. You will believe a story that started as oral tradition, and has no supporting evidence whatsoever besides a few remote case of people experiencing God on top of a hill, alone, with NO ONE AROUND. There is no proof that God exists, at all. You will believe a theory about something as big as the creation of the world and everything that walks on it with no physical proof, but do not have enough faith to buy something off the TV because you're afraid it might not work right. Something in the logic is messed up...

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"He could climb to it, if he climbed alone, and once there he could suck on the pap of life, gulp down the incomparable milk of wonder."

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God IS real.

 

 

 

Now before all you atheists get all "OMFG God cant be t3h r34l b3cuz j00 h4v no pr00fs." on me, I would just like to point something out.

 

 

 

(1) You believe in evolution, right? Yet, you can't take pictures or videos of a species evolving, or such things like that.. All you can make is educated guesses based on fossil records..

 

 

 

You believe in quantum mechanics, right? Yet you can't really track the movement of electrons or really put a cat in a box with a vial of poison and record the universe splitting..

 

 

 

(2) God is a matter of faith, as are virtually all unproven theories in science.. You are so quick to believe anything with "science" tacked on the front of it, yet when it comes to faith you push it aside as "stories"...

 

 

 

The Bible is a set of guidelines on how to live our lives, not a accurate historical manual. It was written as man's interpretation of God's teachings.. thus, you find many areas of the Bible were it contradicts itself, particularly in the New Testament vs. the Old Testament. Does this mean that the lessons it teaches are lies? No!

 

 

 

About the argument that there is no God because we have this, this, and this- This world isn't perfect! It was never meant to be! It it was, we wouldn't have heaven! God sent us here to learn something.. about ourselves, about the world, about the nature of good and evil.. heaven's the reward at the end of the journey.

 

 

 

I don't know all the answers, I'll admit it. But.. If these is no God, why even bother being a good person?? Why can't I just go rob a bank or massacre an entire race? Why not live my life simply for my own pleasure, being a total arse to everyone I meet because it benefits me? So I'm curious atheists.. What's keeping you from doing these things??

 

 

 

(1) Wouldn't you just love what I have to show you. It's not just an 'educated guess', every single observation ever made coincides with evolution, dispite what any apologist is willing to misconstrue and throw at you, some observations which simply can't be explained in any other way. Hence why evolution is considered fact in the scientific community.

 

 

 

[hide]

Stephen Jay Gould[/url]":2z5mcajo]Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.

 

 

 

Moreover, "fact" does not mean "absolute certainty." The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

[2][/url]"]Is evolution also a fact? All but the most trivial facts begin as untested hypothesesÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ã
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