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#54981
Nyosuht
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Today I went to Goodwill to see if I could pick up some cute skirts and whatever on the cheap. The store had a "no guns" sign up, so I went to the one on the other side of town and they had a sign too.

WTF, Goodwill? I'm not leaving $1500 of gun and accessories unattended in my car while I look for clothes. Also, I kind of need to know how the clothes will work with the gun.

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In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. ~Samuel Adams; 1 August, 1776
There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837


#54982
Ring_World
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Yeah that can be annoying although in my experience I can't fault the store for wanting their customers to not come in armed.

 

Ignoring the politics of gun control, I wouldn't want armed people visiting a store that I would own because my insurance rates go up. And they go up because people don't have nearly as much trigger discipline as you'd hope.



#54983
Major Dash
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I thought that the "no gun" signs were just a suggestion and could not legally ban someone from entering with a firearm unless there was a city ordinance or something (like Chicago)?


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“I had a feeling we weren’t coming back from this fight when it began.”

“Do you have any regrets?”

“I don’t. It seems surprising, I know, but I wouldn’t change a thing. This is how it was meant to be.”

“Huh, you never really notice how lovely the day is until you realize you’ll never see it again.”

“Mmmhmm.”

 


#54984
Goonstalf
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ive found that if i leave my holster in the car and just grip my gun between my butt cheeks while i shop i


I'm going to milk Goon's teats


#54985
Estonian dude
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I still can't fathom why in the bloody hell you would ever need to go shopping with a gun... And you leave your $10k+ car unattended in the parking lot at all times. If you leave the car there, why can't you just leave the gun in the boot or sth?
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#54986
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I'm not going to get into my views on guns because I'll be labeled an insane pinko but breaking a window and stealing guns is easier than stealing a car by a very, very high margin.

 

I carry a bag with upwards of $1500 in stuff almost all the time and I don't leave it in my car, even in the trunk. Especially here in Fayetteville...


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#54987
Boris5000
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I wrote a lengthy reply about going into gun politics and I cba typing it again so I will say the same points.

Personally I think there is no excuse to need to carry a gun. Especially the excuse of "I need to protect myself"/"I have valuables I don't want to lose". One excuse carries forward the idea that everyone is a murder hobo and the other can be prevented by only carrying items that you are okay with losing or getting insurance that covers petty theft.

 

Truthfully, a gun would not prevent an opportunistic pickpocket from swiping a phone/wallet/bag from a densely crowded place.

Likewise a gun won't help you if a gang of people get the jump on you. A gun is literally there to escalate situations that could be resolved otherwise.

 

When I have visited America it was deeply concerning that any person I would be talking to would be carrying a gun. 

 

Just my two cents as a gunless, english, man


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Luck be a Lady

#54988
Nyosuht
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Yeah that can be annoying although in my experience I can't fault the store for wanting their customers to not come in armed.

Ignoring the politics of gun control, I wouldn't want armed people visiting a store that I would own because my insurance rates go up. And they go up because people don't have nearly as much trigger discipline as you'd hope.

One of our malls is posted, but those are the only other "no guns" signs I'm aware of in town. Most places don't have them, and neither Goodwill wasn't posted last time I went out, so it was really surprising to see them.
If trigger discipline becomes relevant, then the person carrying has already messed up. Unless there is an immediate threat warranting application of lethal force, the gun should stay holstered in public.
 

I thought that the "no gun" signs were just a suggestion and could not legally ban someone from entering with a firearm unless there was a city ordinance or something (like Chicago)?

It depends largely on where you are. Michigan law prohibits local units of government from restricting the carry of firearms, and has no special standard for "no guns" signs, but having it conspicuously posted makes it into a trespass issue.
I probably could have gotten away with it, but I'd rather go to one of the other thrift shops that isn't posted.

 

I still can't fathom why in the bloody hell you would ever need to go shopping with a gun... And you leave your $10k+ car unattended in the parking lot at all times. If you leave the car there, why can't you just leave the gun in the boot or sth?

My default state is to be armed, so the more relevant question is why I would need to go shopping without a gun... particularly shopping for clothes I plan to wear with the gun.
I drive an older hatchback, which KBB says is worth less than $3k. There is no boot/trunk. There's a glovebox, which is easily pried open. I also have a pistol lockbox, but I've seen them pried open with a stout screwdriver.

Making off with the whole car requires more skill/knowledge/equipment than knocking out some glass, and is much less accessible as a crime of opportunity.
The car also has a highly visible plate number, and a car with no plate or with a mismatched plate is going to be much more apparent than a stolen gun carried concealed.
Maybe it's illogical, but I worry more about a stolen pistol being used in violent crime than a stolen car.
 

Personally I think there is no excuse to need to carry a gun. Especially the excuse of "I need to protect myself"/"I have valuables I don't want to lose". One excuse carries forward the idea that everyone is a murder hobo and the other can be prevented by only carrying items that you are okay with losing or getting insurance that covers petty theft.

I get that there are cultural differences at play. For me, it's always just been something responsible adults do.
On almost every day, it sits in its holster, under my clothes, and nobody knows or cares that I have it. The odds are incredibly good that any given day will go like this and I having or not having it won't make any difference at all.
Not everyone is a murder hobo, and I don't think carrying a gun suggests that at all. I don't think most people are a threat, and I don't treat them that way. However, I do recognize that some people are dangerous under the right(wrong?) circumstances.

The problem for me is the very few days when it does make a difference. On those days, the difference it makes is immeasurable.
 

Truthfully, a gun would not prevent an opportunistic pickpocket from swiping a phone/wallet/bag from a densely crowded place.

An opportunistic pickpocket doesn't represent a threat warranting lethal force. Shooting a pickpocket and claiming self-defense is a good way to wind up in prison.
As a side note, I don't know anyone who's been pickpocketed in the states. Everyone I know here who has been robbed on the streets has been robbed by force.
 

Likewise a gun won't help you if a gang of people get the jump on you. A gun is literally there to escalate situations that could be resolved otherwise.

Situational awareness can help keep people from getting the jump; there isn't much in the way of equipment that can.
The last time I used my pistol defensively, it was against a group of about 8 late-teen or early-20s "kids". One decided that he needed to teach me a lesson and a few followed along while the rest sat across the street to watch and cheer them on. After they hurled a piece of road at me and my wife then charged us, I started to draw. Suddenly, they realized they had somewhere else to be.

Would they have killed us? Probably not, but it really would have been up to them had we been unarmed. The fact that I had the ability to apply lethal force ended the encounter without anyone going to the hospital.
 

When I have visited America it was deeply concerning that any person I would be talking to would be carrying a gun.

Just my two cents as a gunless, english, man

Unless you posed an imminent threat, I'm not sure what there was to be concerned about. If you weren't worried about the people you're talking to trying to attack you without a gun, you probably shouldn't worry about them trying to attack you with a gun.

rnHJQwZ.png
In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. ~Samuel Adams; 1 August, 1776
There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837


#54989
Boris5000
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Thank you for your reply Nyosuht.
 

 

When I have visited America it was deeply concerning that any person I would be talking to would be carrying a gun.

Just my two cents as a gunless, english, man

Unless you posed an imminent threat of great bodily harm, I'm not sure what there was to be concerned about.

 


That's exactly my problem. Why should I be concerned about how I present myself when it is the other person I need to be concerned about?
This implies that everyone carries a gun because everyone can present imminent threat to bodily harm towards someone. The fact you carry a gun means in some manner of fact in any conversation you could be thinking "If this man reaches for a gun I reach for mine first".
There shouldn't be the need to carry a gun because no one should present imminent threats. However because everyone does carry a gun because of such reason makes the person I am talking have the capacity to cause imminent bodily harm (to me) despite the fact I wouldn't, and are in fact harmless?  

Should I therefore carry a gun to handle "imminent threats" because others are carrying guns? 


Luck be a Lady

#54990
obfuscator
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obfuscator

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Just a note on chicago, their city-wide handgun ban is no longer in effect, as it was found unconstitutional (and also mostly useless)

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#54991
RpgGamer
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Not all of America is super gun friendly. While gun ownership is semi-common in my state, virtually no one carries, open or concealed. Also most firearms are essentially banned here
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Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.




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#54992
RpgGamer
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Oh, and I don't mean to harp on the electoral college thing, but fun fact: NJ's governor hasn't been the same party as the President since 1982 (Reagan & Gov Kean). Any other instance of overlap was only a few months due to inauguration of one or the other
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Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.




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#54993
Nyosuht
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Thank you for your reply Nyosuht.

Sure thing. I'm usually up for understanding better and being better understood.
 

That's exactly my problem. Why should I be concerned about how I present myself when it is the other person I need to be concerned about?
This implies that everyone carries a gun because everyone can present imminent threat to bodily harm towards someone. The fact you carry a gun means in some manner of fact in any conversation you could be thinking "If this man reaches for a gun I reach for mine first".
There shouldn't be the need to carry a gun because no one should present imminent threats. However because everyone does carry a gun because of such reason makes the person I am talking have the capacity to cause imminent bodily harm (to me) despite the fact I wouldn't, and are in fact harmless?
Should I therefore carry a gun to handle "imminent threats" because others are carrying guns?



There's more to an "imminent threat" than someone having the ability to harm you. If you regularly present yourself in a way that makes reasonable people think "this person will kill me or send me to the hospital if I don't apply force now," you probably should work on that. And not just for the benefit of not being shot.

I don't understand how "it is the other person [you] need to be concerned about." As long as they're not being hostile or threatening, the presence or absence of a weapon makes little difference. If they are being hostile or threatening, (regardless of whether either, neither, or both of you are armed) your top priority should be getting out intact; again, the presence or absence of a weapon makes little difference.

Not everyone carries; about 1 in 13 of Michigan's population is licensed to carry a concealed pistol. Licenses are not available to anyone under 21, so the rate's a little higher if you exclude them. This obviously doesn't account for people who carry (legally or not) without a license, or people who are licensed and do not always carry. Those who do carry have their own reasons, some have been victims or been close to victims of violent crime. My brother-in-law was robbed by a hatchet-wielding psycho. My aunt was raped before her attacker slit her throat and left her for dead.
For me, it's one more tool in my box; it's not the only one, and it's certainly not one I relish the idea of using.

I'm not out to hurt anyone, and I don't see any reason to assume anyone else is either. It is this assumption that most people aren't (as you put it) murder hobos, that lets me believe they should be allowed to arm themselves against the relatively few who would do them (or me) harm.
I think that carrying a gun for defense against other people who are defensively armed is exactly the opposite sort of thinking from this. It's based on the premise that the people around you are only harmless because they lack the means to harm you; suggesting that everyone has intent/desire to harm you. Your stated intent is to "defend" against the threat posed by people who would only act defensively, but that threat is essentially non-existent. (because you're harmless and they're harmless) Maybe you'd wind up defending yourself eventually, but it wouldn't be against one of these people.


For some reason, this in particular bothers me:

The fact you carry a gun means in some manner of fact in any conversation you could be thinking "If this man reaches for a gun I reach for mine first".

While I'm probably capable of thinking that, I struggle to imagine a conversation where that would happen. I guess maybe if they've said they have a gun and expressed intent to use it against me? But the conversation would be over by then, and I'd be looking to make my escape. My pistol is a tool of last resort; I don't sit around daydreaming about hurting people, and I would much rather leave or avoid confrontation than hurt someone or get hurt myself.

It's not like the movies where a person who has a gun will surely use it (or at least try). I put it on with my belt in the morning, and I think of it throughout the day about as much as I think of my belt. I don't walk around fantasizing about strangling people with my belt, and I don't walk around fantasizing about shooting people. I assume most other people don't either.


Not all of America is super gun friendly. While gun ownership is semi-common in my state, virtually no one carries, open or concealed. Also most firearms are essentially banned here

I think you'd have an easier time getting a license to carry a concealed pistol in Estonia than in New Jersey. Probably better selection too!

rnHJQwZ.png
In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. ~Samuel Adams; 1 August, 1776
There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837


#54994
RpgGamer
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Today we seemed to have awakened some kind of monster from our past. I advise not clicking new threads from new users for a bit. Pretty graphic stuff

But also LOL@ observer for digging through some of my posts that are over 10 years old l. Man I was a dork.
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#54995
obfuscator
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yeah....wonder how long that stuff will stay up? some of the previous spam from 5 days ago is still up

edit: 1 mod and 2 admins (of the entire team) have even logged into the forums in the past month

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#54996
muggiwhplar
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yeah....wonder how long that stuff will stay up? some of the previous spam from 5 days ago is still up

 

it's funny because on one hand, all the mods seem to be offline... but on the other hand, there's only 6 members online (including the spammer), so it's like nobody's going to even see the spam anyway lol

 

I, for one, applaud him for breathing new life into otherwise-dead subforums and I just hope that he participates in the coveted Miss Hottie finals before his departure


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#54997
obfuscator
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yeah....wonder how long that stuff will stay up? some of the previous spam from 5 days ago is still up

 
it's funny because on one hand, all the mods seem to be offline... but on the other hand, there's only 6 members online (including the spammer), so it's like nobody's going to even see the spam anyway lol
 
I, for one, applaud him for breathing new life into otherwise-dead subforums and I just hope that he participates in the coveted Miss Hottie finals before his departure


silverion is probably getting a notification about dangerously high server load right about now

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti


#54998
Tesset
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My parents stopped in my apartments to use the bathroom after we all went on vacation, and I never notice how messy the place is until someone is over.

Luckily I had done the dishes at least, but ugh, I hate having people over...

My skin is finally getting soft
I'll scrub until the damn thing comes off


#54999
The Observer
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yeah....wonder how long that stuff will stay up? some of the previous spam from 5 days ago is still up

 
it's funny because on one hand, all the mods seem to be offline... but on the other hand, there's only 6 members online (including the spammer), so it's like nobody's going to even see the spam anyway lol
 
I, for one, applaud him for breathing new life into otherwise-dead subforums and I just hope that he participates in the coveted Miss Hottie finals before his departure

 


silverion is probably getting a notification about dangerously high server load right about now

 

I don't think he was even around much at all back in the good old days.

 

I'll see if I can nudge Arceus.


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#55000
Veiva
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I propose a motion to make RpgGamer a mod.


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