Cosmetic Surgery

[Lenin64]

I'm surprised there's been no "Dude looks like a lady" jokes yet.

 

 

 

But I think the reason people feel differently about different procedures- boob jobs vs. transgender is that large breasts occur naturally in nature. Not on everybody, but it's there. Nowhere in the human species do people change their gender naturally. And lets' not bring frogs/fish into this, since they're not human.

 

 

 

But as has been said, as long as the dude looks like a lady to a sufficient degree, why not? However, if by any chance he/she wins, I will physcially remove three of my own vertebrae, bend my spine backwards, and eat my own [wagon].

 

 

 

Where have I heard that?.

 

Double points if you figure it out by tomorrow, regular points anytime afterward. No points by 3 A.M. October 8th.

[The Dark Lord]

So obviously you're unsure if they're transgender, but if they were a "normal" person, then it wouldn't be hard? With your logic shouldn't you be labeling everyone as he/she? Since she's a male-to-female transsexual, she would obviously want to be labeled she. I've talked to many transgenders before. I'm around them every day on Soulforce forums. The only exception is if they're an androgyne. Androgynes usually have no preferences as to what you label them, along gender lines. They also dress in a manner that they are totally gender-neutral. In many cases, they belong to no gender roles whatsoever, or they are a mixture of both roles. Basically their mentality is 'unisex.' Those are the people you label with the 'he/she,' but with a transgender person, label them in a way that it's congruent with their gender identification. At the very least, do it so they don't feel put-down. It's common courtesy, y'know. You wouldn't walk up to a woman and say "How do you do, sir?" ... Unless you want to be [bleep] slapped across the face.

 

 

 

I can understand why some people would make the argument about her undergoing surgery and hormones, but that's a corrective process. If she was born anatomically male, she would also be cursed with having higher testosterone than the average woman. It would be a total disadvantage. Basically if you feel like this would give her an unfair advantage, then allow all participants to be allowed in even if they had corrective surgery or had to take HRT in order to maintain their hormonal levels. I don't view anything of the corrective nature as cheating, and transgender surgery and transitional processes are just forms of correcting something. It's actually more like a psychological type of treatment. So in your logic, anyone who has to take antidepressants or ADHD medicines or anything of the sort shouldn't be allowed in either. Transgender transitional surgeries and hormone treatments are the only psychological treatments that can fix feelings of incongruency in transgendered individuals.

 

 

 

For those too lazy to read my good point: SHUT UP! LET HER LIVE HER CHILDHOOD DREAMS! LET HER BE ENCOURAGEMENT TO ANYONE IN HER SITUATION!

[pennywise]

So obviously you're unsure if they're transgender, but if they were a "normal" person, then it wouldn't be hard? With your logic shouldn't you be labeling everyone as he/she? Since she's a male-to-female transsexual, she would obviously want to be labeled she. I've talked to many transgenders before. I'm around them every day on Soulforce forums. The only exception is if they're an androgyne. Androgynes usually have no preferences as to what you label them, along gender lines. They also dress in a manner that they are totally gender-neutral. In many cases, they belong to no gender roles whatsoever, or they are a mixture of both roles. Basically their mentality is 'unisex.' Those are the people you label with the 'he/she,' but with a transgender person, label them in a way that it's congruent with their gender identification. At the very least, do it so they don't feel put-down. It's common courtesy, y'know. You wouldn't walk up to a woman and say "How do you do, sir?" ... Unless you want to be [bleep] slapped across the face.

 

 

 

I can understand why some people would make the argument about her undergoing surgery and hormones, but that's a corrective process. If she was born anatomically male, she would also be cursed with having higher testosterone than the average woman. It would be a total disadvantage. Basically if you feel like this would give her an unfair advantage, then allow all participants to be allowed in even if they had corrective surgery or had to take HRT in order to maintain their hormonal levels. I don't view anything of the corrective nature as cheating, and transgender surgery and transitional processes are just forms of correcting something. It's actually more like a psychological type of treatment. So in your logic, anyone who has to take antidepressants or ADHD medicines or anything of the sort shouldn't be allowed in either. Transgender transitional surgeries and hormone treatments are the only psychological treatments that can fix feelings of incongruency in transgendered individuals.

 

 

 

For those too lazy to read my good point: SHUT UP! LET HER LIVE HER CHILDHOOD DREAMS! LET HER BE ENCOURAGEMENT TO ANYONE IN HER SITUATION!

 

 

 

who exactly are you referring to when you say "with your logic"?

[Lenin64]

So obviously you're unsure if they're transgender, but if they were a "normal" person, then it wouldn't be hard? With your logic shouldn't you be labeling everyone as he/she? Since she's a male-to-female transsexual, she would obviously want to be labeled she. I've talked to many transgenders before. I'm around them every day on Soulforce forums. The only exception is if they're an androgyne. Androgynes usually have no preferences as to what you label them, along gender lines. They also dress in a manner that they are totally gender-neutral. In many cases, they belong to no gender roles whatsoever, or they are a mixture of both roles. Basically their mentality is 'unisex.' Those are the people you label with the 'he/she,' but with a transgender person, label them in a way that it's congruent with their gender identification. At the very least, do it so they don't feel put-down. It's common courtesy, y'know. You wouldn't walk up to a woman and say "How do you do, sir?" ... Unless you want to be [bleep] slapped across the face.

 

 

 

I can understand why some people would make the argument about her undergoing surgery and hormones, but that's a corrective process. If she was born anatomically male, she would also be cursed with having higher testosterone than the average woman. It would be a total disadvantage. Basically if you feel like this would give her an unfair advantage, then allow all participants to be allowed in even if they had corrective surgery or had to take HRT in order to maintain their hormonal levels. I don't view anything of the corrective nature as cheating, and transgender surgery and transitional processes are just forms of correcting something. It's actually more like a psychological type of treatment. So in your logic, anyone who has to take antidepressants or ADHD medicines or anything of the sort shouldn't be allowed in either. Transgender transitional surgeries and hormone treatments are the only psychological treatments that can fix feelings of incongruency in transgendered individuals.

 

 

 

For those too lazy to read my good point: SHUT UP! LET HER LIVE HER CHILDHOOD DREAMS! LET HER BE ENCOURAGEMENT TO ANYONE IN HER SITUATION!

 

 

 

But she's still hopped up on extra estrogen pills and has fake boobs, something Tyra Banks is, I'm sure from watching the show, against. If they made one exception, as the saying goes, they'd have to make one for everyone. Would you feel the same way and argue for her, especially with that last, unnecessarily capitalised sentence, if she were just another bimbo with silicon taped to her chest? It's the same issue; cosmetic surgery.

[The Dark Lord]

I'm referring to anyone who claims that this is an unfair advantage. I'm explaining that it wouldn't be anymore of an advantage than having psychological treatment. After all, transgender surgeries don't make you necessarily beautiful.

[Lenin64]

I'm referring to anyone who claims that this is an unfair advantage. I'm explaining that it wouldn't be anymore of an advantage than having psychological treatment. After all, transgender surgeries don't make you necessarily beautiful.

 

Not sure what the psychological treatment has to do with anything, unless you mean brainwashing to act uber womanly, but I can address your last statement. While this is true-and I realize I'm focusing on only one issue at this point-it is my understanding that breast size can be chosen, and I don't think there's much market for a gymnast in modeling if you catch my drift. Something like this can be seen as an unfair advantage as not every girl has had that opportunity.

[The Dark Lord]

Well before you ever open your mouth about something you don't know, research. I'm not talking about your view on 'fairness' as relates to a beauty pageant, but I am talking about your nerve to talk bad about a minority you know nothing about. They don't brainwash themselves or others. Gender identity is a real psychological thing.

 

 

 

Back OT: Okay, I can understand where you guys are getting at. A transsexual woman *can* choose her breast size. That's the only thing I can agree with on this, but I still don't think it's fair that it should be impossible for a woman who was born with physical incongruenties to never be allowed into any competitions such as this. It IS a more of a correctional process than trying to look beautiful kind of thing. The only problem with only allowing her to partake in transsexual beauty pageants is that society, in general, discriminates against such people. The show wouldn't get much media attention. Wingnut organizations such as AFA (American Family Association) will boycott it. People will protest it. If it's brought into more media attention (AKA allowing her onto the show to compete) will bring more transgender awareness and people might even learn a thing or two.

 

 

 

I'm appalled that an online community that claims to be mostly agnostic/atheist and claims to use logic instead of parroting religious beliefs actually would say such a bad thing about someone because of their gender identification. It's really ignorant. I know that people would flame the hell out of religious posts and/or threads. They would say the Christian folk on here are mostly idiots and bigots following an archaic belief system, yet you aren't any better if you go around screaming hate speech against a minority at the top of your lungs and discrediting anyone who thinks differently than you. This has got to be one of the most bigoted sites I've ever seen. Then the people on this site will talk bad about 4chan because they are "full of immature, sick little kids." Really there are more parallels between that site and this one if you think critically.

 

 

 

Yet, there are the few people that keep this site going. They are the mature ones that can have intelligent conversations. They are the ones who wouldn't deny any human of equality based on race, gender, ethnicity, or sexual orientation. Kudos to those that are one of the few.

[Lenin64]

Well before you ever open your mouth about something you don't know, research. I'm not talking about your view on 'fairness' as relates to a beauty pageant, but I am talking about your nerve to talk bad about a minority you know nothing about. They don't brainwash themselves or others. Gender identity is a real psychological thing.

 

Ok, nowhere did I say or even really imply that they did. I just couldn't think of whatever psychological treatment that could possibly be done that would give them any advantage over someone.

[magekillr]

I'm appalled that an online community that claims to be mostly agnostic/atheist and claims to use logic instead of parroting religious beliefs actually would say such a bad thing about someone because of their gender identification. It's really ignorant. I know that people would flame the hell out of religious posts and/or threads. They would say the Christian folk on here are mostly idiots and bigots following an archaic belief system, yet you aren't any better if you go around screaming hate speech against a minority at the top of your lungs and discrediting anyone who thinks differently than you. This has got to be one of the most bigoted sites I've ever seen. Then the people on this site will talk bad about 4chan because they are "full of immature, sick little kids." Really there are more parallels between that site and this one if you think critically.

 

 

 

Wow, where have you been all my life? I've been here since this board started, and I've never seen you around.

 

 

 

=D>

 

 

 

edit: Oh, and I see you live in Arkansas...you poor poor dear. :oops:

[pryomancer]

I can't believe some of you are actually saying that it's wrong and she should not be allowed to enter.

 

That's disgusting. You haven't the slightest clue at all of what she would have been through, if you knew her you would be much more sympathetic.

 

 

 

What gives you the right to label her as something which isn't really female. She has a vagina, therefore she is classed scientifically as a woman. End of.

 

 

 

With my experience with transgender people, they ARE authentic with their gender identification. Gender (gender identification) relates to your status as boy or girl. Thus, SHE (yes, SHE) is qualified to run in this competition. She has been through transgender surgery, which means she is now anatomically congruent with her identity. Allow her.

 

 

 

Also to the above people, discrimination is wrong. It's not like she's sub-human FFS. She's a freakin human being. She might not fit into YOUR view of the norm. :o Ohmygosh! The world is coming to an end!

 

 

 

And also, transgender girls (born anatomically male, but have female gender identification) aren't men running around in wigs, they aren't gay men using excuses to sleep with heterosexual men, and they aren't perverts asking for a reason to be allowed into women's locker rooms or bathrooms. Your ignorance is FAIL.

 

Exactly my thoughts.

 

 

 

You should all be ashamed (those of you who discriminated against her).

[Lateralus]

It's difficult to tell who's being addressed in the replies, so I feel I have to post to clarify my position because I absolutely refuse to be labeled something I am not (and I should hope no one would think of me). If 'no plastic surgery' is a stipulation for entry to the competition (which I'm not even sure that it is), then I don't think it should be bent in this case, since it is clearly not intended to discriminate against trans gendered people. If entry to the competition is based on their abilities to perform as a model, then of course allow this woman to enter.

[Lenticular_J]

You haven't the slightest clue at all of what she would have been through, if you knew her you would be much more sympathetic.

 

I just want to say something here. Sure, she has some issues and I doubt everyone agrees with her (his, I don't really know) choices. But "been through"? She was born a fully-functional person. She just didn't like who she was. So she got some things removed (I'm sure you know about this part). But you can't compare her "struggles" with someone who was born, say, minus legs. If she doesn't want to be discriminated against, she shouldn't be telling everyone she's transgendered, unless necessary.

 

 

 

That said, I really have nothing wrong with it. If it isn't against the rules, go right ahead.

[Rebdragon]

I'm confused :| . Could someone please explain her condition in detail, and to boot, lend me a source explaining the exact definitions for words having to do with this problem, like transgender and transsexual? All I'm finding on the web is blanket statement definitions usages for those two words, often seeing them used to mean the same thing, when I thought they meant something more than just "gender confusion" [which is a vague enough definition to piss me off].

 

 

 

Ie, what would the labels be for all ten of these:

 

(1)Someone born physically male with a male part, but thinks they have a female brain.

 

Same as (1), but has surgery and changes everything to appear female but that part.

 

Same as (1), but tries to make everything female, including that part.

 

(2)Someone born physically female with a female part, but thinks they have a male brain.

 

Same as (2), but has surgery and changes everything to appear male but that part.

 

Same as (2), but tries to make everything male, including that part.

 

(3) Is born physically male but with a female part.

 

Same as (3), but has surgery to make their body appear female, while keeping the female part.

 

(4) Is born physically female but with a male part.

 

Same as (4), but has surgery to make their body appear male, while keeping the male part.

 

 

 

Okay, if I can get some consistency on answers to this, that would be great. I keep finding contradictions and irregularities on the web, so I'd love to clear up some of the confusion :| .

[jjrox32]

I'm surprised there's been no "Dude looks like a lady" jokes yet.

 

 

 

But I think the reason people feel differently about different procedures- boob jobs vs. transgender is that large breasts occur naturally in nature. Not on everybody, but it's there. Nowhere in the human species do people change their gender naturally. And lets' not bring frogs/fish into this, since they're not human.

 

 

 

But as has been said, as long as the dude looks like a lady to a sufficient degree, why not? However, if by any chance he/she wins, I will physcially remove three of my own vertebrae, bend my spine backwards, and eat my own [wagon].

 

 

 

Where have I heard that?.

 

Double points if you figure it out by tomorrow, regular points anytime afterward. No points by 3 A.M. October 8th.

 

 

 

Oh, oh, I think I got this. Zero Punctuation?

 

 

 

Serephurus, I don't see your logic at all. Being atheist automatically makes you a more logical and a smarter person? You make it sound like anyone slightly religious is automatically a biased fool. I'll admit some people are like that, but come on. You make it sound like agnostics/atheists are superior to anyone with a religion because they don't believe in anything.

[The Dark Lord]

I didn't mean it that way, at all. In fact, I'm part of a religion. I was just saying that they believe they are more logical because they are agnostic/atheist. They claim to be free from dogmatic teachings.

[jjrox32]

I didn't mean it that way, at all. In fact, I'm part of a religion. I was just saying that they believe they are more logical because they are agnostic/atheist. They claim to be free from dogmatic teachings.

 

 

 

Oh. I must have read what you wrote the wrong way.

[Kenshinjapan]

 

 

 

I'm appalled that an online community that claims to be mostly agnostic/atheist and claims to use logic instead of parroting religious beliefs actually would say such a bad thing about someone because of their gender identification. It's really ignorant. I know that people would flame the hell out of religious posts and/or threads. They would say the Christian folk on here are mostly idiots and bigots following an archaic belief system, yet you aren't any better if you go around screaming hate speech against a minority at the top of your lungs and discrediting anyone who thinks differently than you. This has got to be one of the most bigoted sites I've ever seen. Then the people on this site will talk bad about 4chan because they are "full of immature, sick little kids." Really there are more parallels between that site and this one if you think critically.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you any better if you run around discriminating Christians for their opinions?

 

 

 

Anyways, I do not believe that she should be allowed to compete. Although her situation sounds legit, people would soon abuse things like this (sadly) and unfairly win competitions. I would feel sorry if the person isn't allowed to join, but if this rule is implemented, imagine the corruption that could enter.

[deloriagod]

 

I'm appalled that an online community that claims to be mostly agnostic/atheist and claims to use logic instead of parroting religious beliefs actually would say such a bad thing about someone because of their gender identification. It's really ignorant. I know that people would flame the hell out of religious posts and/or threads. They would say the Christian folk on here are mostly idiots and bigots following an archaic belief system, yet you aren't any better if you go around screaming hate speech against a minority at the top of your lungs and discrediting anyone who thinks differently than you. This has got to be one of the most bigoted sites I've ever seen. Then the people on this site will talk bad about 4chan because they are "full of immature, sick little kids." Really there are more parallels between that site and this one if you think critically.

 

 

 

 

Glad I wasn't the first to say this. I wouldn't have been so nice about it.

 

 

 

I can say, for the first time since I joined in '04, I'm ashamed to be a part of this community. This is absolutely ridiculous. As Seph said, this site has a lot in common with 4chan these days and you guys are showing it more than ever in this thread. This used to be a great, accepting community and now it's full of hatred and immaturity. Shame on everyone who's acted so terribly :shame:

[silver_wits]

I'm confused :| . Could someone please explain her condition in detail, and to boot, lend me a source explaining the exact definitions for words having to do with this problem, like transgender and transsexual? All I'm finding on the web is blanket statement definitions usages for those two words, often seeing them used to mean the same thing, when I thought they meant something more than just "gender confusion" [which is a vague enough definition to piss me off].

 

 

 

Ie, what would the labels be for all ten of these:

 

(1)Someone born physically male with a male part, but thinks they have a female brain.

 

Same as (1), but has surgery and changes everything to appear female but that part.

 

Same as (1), but tries to make everything female, including that part.

 

(2)Someone born physically female with a female part, but thinks they have a male brain.

 

Same as (2), but has surgery and changes everything to appear male but that part.

 

Same as (2), but tries to make everything male, including that part.

 

(3) Is born physically male but with a female part.

 

Same as (3), but has surgery to make their body appear female, while keeping the female part.

 

(4) Is born physically female but with a male part.

 

Same as (4), but has surgery to make their body appear male, while keeping the male part.

 

 

 

Okay, if I can get some consistency on answers to this, that would be great. I keep finding contradictions and irregularities on the web, so I'd love to clear up some of the confusion :| .

 

 

 

 

 

Transsexual

 

1. One who wishes to be considered by society as a member of the opposite sex.

 

2. One who has undergone a sex change.

 

 

transgendered

 

1. Appearing as, wishing to be considered as, or having undergone surgery to become a member of the opposite sex.

 

2. Of or relating to a transgendered person or transgendered people.

 

Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as male, female, both or neither) not matching one's "assigned gender" (identification by others as male or female based on physical/genetic sex). "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual or asexual.

 

 

 

if you go to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

 

Transgender identities

 

>Transsexual

 

>Cross-dresser

 

>Transvestite

 

>Drag kings and queens

 

>Genderqueer

 

>People who live cross-gender

 

>Androgyne

 

 

 

I'm begining to think they mean the same thing?

 

Actually, It looks like Transgender means that you don't think the way you're supposed to regarding gender behaviour.

 

and a transsexual is someone who is transgendered, but apparantly, not all transgendered people are transsexual.

 

[if that makes sense?]

[Rebdragon]

Err, not really. I think reading your post mind-[bleep]ed me more than I already was :? .

 

 

 

I mean... as politically correct as these people want to be, is there even a consensus on the definitions of these words? For that, I'd love to ask for anyone who at least half-way understands this to label those ten cases I've listed. That's the only way I can think of to straighten this [cabbage] out in my head...

[folmer_veeman]

i can't and won't accept transgendered people, i agree, they have a psychic disorder, but do you accept serial killers? they have a psychic disorder too, and they also don't know they don't even know they are doing wrong.. so why not accept them too? (don't be offended by this comparison, the only one i could think of)

 

 

 

transgendered people may have a disorder, but they still chose for themselves to mutilate their bodies, which i have NO respect for..

 

 

 

(sorry if i sound ignorant, maybe i am, but if i am, i'm proud of it!)

[Ginger_Warrior]

That is nasty. Meh, he/she will burn in hell anyway so I shouldn't dwell on it.

 

The 'Not everyone's a Christian' thing really doesn't scan with you does it?

 

 

 

I don't think you can say this is 'right' or 'wrong'. As with all things concerning Medicine it's a balance and there's no black and white answer to this. From an open-minded, agnostic point of view, I don't actually see anything wrong with humans using an artificial method to change someone's gender. We use artificial methods elsewhere in Medicine where it's possibly unneeded - why not here?

 

 

 

I have an inkling people are basing their judgements through emotional reaction as opposed to actual common sense.

 

 

 

The only thing I would say is that if it's not necessary treatment, don't expect the NHS to pay for it, or a charity if you're living elsewhere.

[warri0r45]

In principle transgendered people and the surgery that they may choose to get doesn't bother me.

 

 

 

It's a serious issue, though. Ideally each one should undergo some serious psychological evaluation beforehand.

[oegly41]

i can't and won't accept transgendered people, i agree, they have a psychic disorder, but do you accept serial killers? they have a psychic disorder too, and they also don't know they don't even know they are doing wrong.. so why not accept them too? (don't be offended by this comparison, the only one i could think of)

 

 

 

transgendered people may have a disorder, but they still chose for themselves to mutilate their bodies, which i have NO respect for..

 

 

 

(sorry if i sound ignorant, maybe i am, but if i am, i'm proud of it!)

 

Serial killers are mentally ill, so they should get help and stop killing. It's the same with transsexuals.

 

 

 

 

 

Reb, I think these definitions are about right:

 

 

 

(1)Someone born physically male with a male part, but thinks they have a female brain. - Transsexual (Male-to-female)

 

Same as (1), but has surgery and changes everything to appear female but that part. - Transsexual (Male-to-female) (Often referred to as 'shemale')

 

Same as (1), but tries to make everything female, including that part. - Transgender (Male-to-female)

 

(2)Someone born physically female with a female part, but thinks they have a male brain. - Transsexual (Female-to male)

 

Same as (2), but has surgery and changes everything to appear male but that part. - Transsexual (Female-to male)

 

Same as (2), but tries to make everything male, including that part. - Transgender (Female-to male)

 

 

 

The other conditions are called intersexual, but I don't know anything about the groups. Also, I am not too sure about where transsexual stops and transgender starts.

 

 

 

My opinions: I am not against any cosmetic surgeries, but I think people should really think things through before they undergo such a thing, considering the risks et cetera. Nevertheless, I think that some cosmetic surgeries to fix things that don't interfere with your life quality might be a waste of resources which could rather have been used on socialistic matters. And that woman which the topic is about should be allowed to compete in the contest unless there is a rule against breast implants.

[Lenin64]

transgendered people may have a disorder, but they still chose for themselves to mutilate their bodies, which i have NO respect for..

 

 

 

(sorry if i sound ignorant, maybe i am, but if i am, i'm proud of it!)

 

Alright, now riddle me this; how is it mutilation? Mutillation is defined as:

 

1.to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts.

 

2.to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part.

 

 

 

Nothing is being damaged, and no "essential" parts are being destroyed, and even if they are, they're being replaced. There's no injury or disfigurement. Unless you're just going for shock value in your word choices, you should rethink it.