Cosmetic Surgery

[Kenshinjapan]

i can't and won't accept transgendered people, i agree, they have a psychic disorder, but do you accept serial killers? they have a psychic disorder too, and they also don't know they don't even know they are doing wrong.. so why not accept them too? (don't be offended by this comparison, the only one i could think of)

 

 

 

transgendered people may have a disorder, but they still chose for themselves to mutilate their bodies, which i have NO respect for..

 

 

 

(sorry if i sound ignorant, maybe i am, but if i am, i'm proud of it!)

 

Serial killers are mentally ill, so they should get help and stop killing. It's the same with transsexuals.

 

 

 

 

If fixing a serial killer is to get them to understand that killing is wrong, wouldn't transsexuals be fixed to understand that their original body is right? I don't think the two can be simplified that easily. Then again, others on the thread will pick and choose which disorders they do and don't like #-o .

 

 

 

Sorry to go off topic, but if people accept gays and transsexuals as mental disorders (forgive me if you don't think it's a disorder), shouldn't people also be as kind to rapist and child molester? Some shout out that molesters are not mentally-ill because hurting children is a much more sensitive thing to most viewers. A gay person won't attack your children, but because a molester does, should that really make them fakers?

 

-------

 

 

 

@lenin: People consider plastic surgery as disfiguring your body. Changing how you look just because that person doesn't think they look good enough is wrong in some eyes.

[rushrock]

i can't and won't accept transgendered people, i agree, they have a psychic disorder, but do you accept serial killers? they have a psychic disorder too, and they also don't know they don't even know they are doing wrong.. so why not accept them too? (don't be offended by this comparison, the only one i could think of)

 

 

 

transgendered people may have a disorder, but they still chose for themselves to mutilate their bodies, which i have NO respect for..

 

 

 

(sorry if i sound ignorant, maybe i am, but if i am, i'm proud of it!)

 

You are an absolute riot!

 

 

 

You have absolutely no idea what goes on in transgendered people's heads. They're probably torturing themselves, going over ideas in their head. Do I get the surgery? I'm such a messed up person. Why aren't I normal? Why me?

 

 

 

That's what it's like in the beginning. Then, if they decide to get the surgery and/or the psychological evaluations, they'll be able to feel normal again. They have to go through all of that to just feel like you and me. And you're comparing them to serial killers and condemning their actions to feel normal?

[anonymous1234]

i can't and won't accept transgendered people, i agree, they have a psychic disorder, but do you accept serial killers? they have a psychic disorder too, and they also don't know they don't even know they are doing wrong.. so why not accept them too? (don't be offended by this comparison, the only one i could think of)

 

 

 

transgendered people may have a disorder, but they still chose for themselves to mutilate their bodies, which i have NO respect for..

 

 

 

(sorry if i sound ignorant, maybe i am, but if i am, i'm proud of it!)

 

Serial killers are mentally ill, so they should get help and stop killing. It's the same with transsexuals.

 

 

 

 

If fixing a serial killer is to get them to understand that killing is wrong, wouldn't transsexuals be fixed to understand that their original body is right? I don't think the two can be simplified that easily. Then again, others on the thread will pick and choose which disorders they do and don't like #-o .

 

 

 

Sorry to go off topic, but if people accept gays and transsexuals as mental disorders (forgive me if you don't think it's a disorder), shouldn't people also be as kind to rapist and child molester? Some shout out that molesters are not mentally-ill because hurting children is a much more sensitive thing to most viewers. A gay person won't attack your children, but because a molester does, should that really make them fakers?

 

-------

 

 

 

@lenin: People consider plastic surgery as disfiguring your body. Changing how you look just because that person doesn't think they look good enough is wrong in some eyes.

But their original body isn't right. If their brains are that of a female, but their body is male, shouldn't they have the right to undergo surgery to fix the problem they were born with? I think that some child molestors do have a mental disorder, while others may fake it. It doesn't give them the right to have sex with children though because it is harming other people, while being a transsexual (or transgender or whatever the correct term is) is the person's choice, and only affects that person's body.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Then again, others on the thread will pick and choose which disorders they do and don't like #-o .

 

Welcome to the Internet, where merely posting on a forum is rewarded with an e-Degree in Psychology.

 

 

 

I say no one on this thread has any qualification to say what is and isn't going through the head of a transsexual. To say they have a "psychic" (I lol'd : ) disorder would be like me saying all Americans are neurotic by genetic inheritance.

 

 

 

There's just no evidence and it's a totally disgusting claim.

[rushrock]

Ginger_Warrior, I don't pretend that I know what's going on inside their heads. I was telling everyone else that they didn't know themselves, and I, personally, was guessing a little bit. Using words like "probably" gives me a little wiggle room.

[folmer_veeman]

transgendered people may have a disorder, but they still chose for themselves to mutilate their bodies, which i have NO respect for..

 

 

 

(sorry if i sound ignorant, maybe i am, but if i am, i'm proud of it!)

 

Alright, now riddle me this; how is it mutilation? Mutillation is defined as:

 

1.to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts.

 

2.to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part.

 

 

 

Nothing is being damaged, and no "essential" parts are being destroyed, and even if they are, they're being replaced. There's no injury or disfigurement. Unless you're just going for shock value in your word choices, you should rethink it.

 

 

 

in my opinion all kinds of plastic surgery (except if you have suffered injuries etc) are mutilation, as you sacrifice working tissue to 'look better' because you won't accept that you're 'ugly'.

 

 

 

i can't and won't accept transgendered people, i agree, they have a psychic disorder, but do you accept serial killers? they have a psychic disorder too, and they also don't know they don't even know they are doing wrong.. so why not accept them too? (don't be offended by this comparison, the only one i could think of)

 

 

 

transgendered people may have a disorder, but they still chose for themselves to mutilate their bodies, which i have NO respect for..

 

 

 

(sorry if i sound ignorant, maybe i am, but if i am, i'm proud of it!)

 

Serial killers are mentally ill, so they should get help and stop killing. It's the same with transsexuals.

 

 

 

 

If fixing a serial killer is to get them to understand that killing is wrong, wouldn't transsexuals be fixed to understand that their original body is right? I don't think the two can be simplified that easily. Then again, others on the thread will pick and choose which disorders they do and don't like #-o .

 

 

 

Sorry to go off topic, but if people accept gays and transsexuals as mental disorders (forgive me if you don't think it's a disorder), shouldn't people also be as kind to rapist and child molester? Some shout out that molesters are not mentally-ill because hurting children is a much more sensitive thing to most viewers. A gay person won't attack your children, but because a molester does, should that really make them fakers?

 

-------

 

 

 

@lenin: People consider plastic surgery as disfiguring your body. Changing how you look just because that person doesn't think they look good enough is wrong in some eyes.

But their original body isn't right. If their brains are that of a female, but their body is male, shouldn't they have the right to undergo surgery to fix the problem they were born with? I think that some child molestors do have a mental disorder, while others may fake it. It doesn't give them the right to have sex with children though because it is harming other people, while being a transsexual (or transgender or whatever the correct term is) is the person's choice, and only affects that person's body.

 

 

 

but can't transsexuals be made to accept their body by psychiatrists?

[deloriagod]

 

but can't transsexuals be made to accept their body by psychiatrists?

 

 

 

No, they can't. You can't just send someone to a psychiatrist, the the doctor what you want the person to believe, and they walk out believing that.

[folmer_veeman]

 

but can't transsexuals be made to accept their body by psychiatrists?

 

 

 

No, they can't. You can't just send someone to a psychiatrist, the the doctor what you want the person to believe, and they walk out believing that.

 

 

 

well, that's how they fix depression and eating disorders..

[anonymous1234]

 

but can't transsexuals be made to accept their body by psychiatrists?

 

 

 

No, they can't. You can't just send someone to a psychiatrist, the the doctor what you want the person to believe, and they walk out believing that.

 

 

 

well, that's how they fix depression and eating disorders..

 

people aren't born with depression and eating disorders

[folmer_veeman]

 

but can't transsexuals be made to accept their body by psychiatrists?

 

 

 

No, they can't. You can't just send someone to a psychiatrist, the the doctor what you want the person to believe, and they walk out believing that.

 

 

 

well, that's how they fix depression and eating disorders..

 

people aren't born with depression and eating disorders

 

 

 

there you have a point..

 

 

 

though people are born with weak physical health (aren't they?)

[The Dark Lord]

 

but can't transsexuals be made to accept their body by psychiatrists?

 

 

 

You mean brainwashing themselves? That is potentially very dangerous and will most likely lead to suicide or mental illness. Reparative Therapy is the same thing as brainwashing an individual to make them "straight" or think "normally." It has a low "success" rate and is viewed by many experts as potentially dangerous and can lead to emotional problems and/or suicide. Reparative Therapy is pseudo-science used by many fundies who use "ex-gay" ministries to try to make a "queer boy straight." It's just a load of redneck quackery. My uncle went through this type of crap because he felt his family would only love him if he did. Now he doesn't even act human. He acts like he has low self-esteem, among other things. I've lost a perfectly fine uncle that I loved dearly to this idiotry.

 

 

 

By the way, psychiatrists only prescribe medicine. Therapists are a different type of person altogether.

 

 

 

I seriously doubt you'll be fine with your body if you felt like it was preventing you from being your true self and you were living one big lie.

[folmer_veeman]

 

but can't transsexuals be made to accept their body by psychiatrists?

 

 

 

You mean brainwashing themselves? That is potentially very dangerous and will most likely lead to suicide or mental illness. Reparative Therapy is the same thing as brainwashing an individual to make them "straight" or think "normally." It has a low "success" rate and is viewed by many experts as potentially dangerous and can lead to emotional problems and/or suicide. Reparative Therapy is pseudo-science used by many fundies who use "ex-gay" ministries to try to make a "queer boy straight." It's just a load of redneck quackery. My uncle went through this type of crap because he felt his family would only love him if he did. Now he doesn't even act human. He acts like he has low self-esteem, among other things. I've lost a perfectly fine uncle that I loved dearly to this idiotry.

 

 

 

By the way, psychiatrists only prescribe medicine. Therapists are a different type of person altogether.

 

 

 

I seriously doubt you'll be fine with your body if you felt like it was preventing you from being your true self and you were living one big lie.

 

 

 

i don't mean brainwashing, i didn't mean making 'queer boys straight', i just meant giving them more self esteem with therapy

[Lenin64]

though people are born with weak physical health (aren't they?)

 

But you can't cure physical illness with psychological treatment.

[folmer_veeman]

though people are born with weak physical health (aren't they?)

 

But you can't cure physical illness with psychological treatment.

 

 

 

but you can lighten the problem

[anonymous1234]

though people are born with weak physical health (aren't they?)

 

But you can't cure physical illness with psychological treatment.

 

 

 

but you can lighten the problem

 

Indeed you can

 

 

 

 

Kittens work wonders :thumbsup:

 

 

 

Directed at Folmer, Raising their self esteem wouldn't be enough, cause they probably couldn't be fully satisfied with the body that was given to them

[Lenticular_J]

Run, he isn't curing a psychological illness there. They're curing Broken Heart Syndrome.

[silver_wits]

what about hermaphrodites?

 

http://www.answers.com/hermaphrodites&r=67

 

 

 

how come they haven't been mentioned as yet? :shock: :? #-o

[Lenticular_J]

what about hermaphrodites?

 

http://www.answers.com/hermaphrodites&r=67

 

 

 

how come they haven't been mentioned as yet? :shock: :? #-o

 

That's a physical condition though, isn't it? They actually have the organs to be technically whatever (or both) gender(s). Although they do usually have more traits leaning towards one side or the other, I think.

[ClareJonsson]

Okay, I really need to throw in my 10c worth on this subject.

 

 

 

First of all, you really should know the facts about real transsexual people (Not the transvestite cross dressing weirdos you see on Springer).

 

TS people are born with something called Gender Dysphoria, it basically means some or all of the brain is of opposite gender to their physical body. This condition has actually been proven as they have dissected the brains of TS's after death and found the brains to match that of the gender they claimed they were (A section of the hypothalamus is a different in men and women).

 

 

 

If someone claims they are TS they have to go through one heck of a lot of hoops before they have surgery, regular visits to a Psychologist, 2 years living as the opposite gender, Hormone replacement therapy, and they need the opinion of two consultant psychologists before any surgery is allowed. And I can tell you all of that isn't easy. Also the surgery isn't exactly a breeze, possible complications and it can be quite dangerous. Nobody would go through all the physical pain, mental anguish and life changes unless it was absolutely the ONLY option left to them.

 

 

 

I know all the above as one of my best friends is TS, I was there and helped her through it all so I have experience of what she had to endure. So, should she have gone ahead and was surgery the best option for her? lets sum up her life before and after:

 

 

 

Before

 

She was totally unhappy.

 

Attemted suicide.

 

Constantly crying.

 

Introverted, closed off from the world.

 

Drinking to excess, she said she was trying to kill herself through alcohol.

 

Her job was suffering to the extent of employers going through motions to have her dismissed.

 

She referred to "That THING" between her legs, with total disgust, as if it was an alien in origin.

 

 

 

After

 

What a change, amazingly happy.

 

Always smiling, always chatty.

 

Her employers kept her on and now she is a valued member of staff.

 

Only drinks sociably.

 

She's such a lovely person to have around.

 

 

 

The above cannot really show 100% what a change surgery made to her life. Someone who you would class as manically depressive and in a state of suicide into someone who is constantly happy, so the question again:

 

Should she have gone ahead and was surgery the best option for her?

 

Absolutely YES.

 

 

 

I do believe that everyone is different and each case should be taken individually. I get the impression that there are true TS's and people who just think they are TS and can be happy without surgery. But for my friend, to me she is proof that this is a very real condition and that her hell has passed.

 

 

 

Reading through this forum thread I have seen something, should a TS girl be allowed to take part in a beauty pageant? Well yes of course, she only corrected a birth defect. Here's an analogy:

 

If someone was born without the use of their legs, and one day a surgeon developed a technique to fix the problem. Should they be allowed to run in the Olympics with all the people who were born able to walk and run? Well yes obviously, nobody will have any problems with that, in fact I will take a guess that people would say things like "Wow, well done you did really well!". But a TS taking part in a beauty contest? Well as far as I can tell it's because it is to do with sex, if you can just get past the homophobia you will see that she's just a girl like any other. Please don't say something stupid like "Well if she can't have children then she isn't female". What about women who were born with a defect to the ovaries or womb. One of my friends at school never had a period because of such, it devastated her to find out she will never be able to have children, but she is still female.

 

 

 

People who have a problem with TS's are the ones who need to update their views and get over the homophobia. You really know nothing of what TS's have to go endure and if you had any idea, you would be praising them for going through it all. My friend is much braver than everyone I know, I don't think I would have made it if I had been in her situation.

 

 

 

One last thing before I sign off, not all male to female TS's fancy men you know, some fancy women and they would be classed as lesbians. Sexual preference and gender are not connected. Ask any lesbian if they would prefer to be a man and they would probably say "Definately not!" :D.

 

 

 

Thanks for reading,

 

Clare.

[Will H]

[hide=]Okay, I really need to throw in my 10c worth on this subject.

 

 

 

First of all, you really should know the facts about real transsexual people (Not the transvestite cross dressing weirdos you see on Springer).

 

TS people are born with something called Gender Dysphoria, it basically means some or all of the brain is of opposite gender to their physical body. This condition has actually been proven as they have dissected the brains of TS's after death and found the brains to match that of the gender they claimed they were (A section of the hypothalamus is a different in men and women).

 

 

 

If someone claims they are TS they have to go through one heck of a lot of hoops before they have surgery, regular visits to a Psychologist, 2 years living as the opposite gender, Hormone replacement therapy, and they need the opinion of two consultant psychologists before any surgery is allowed. And I can tell you all of that isn't easy. Also the surgery isn't exactly a breeze, possible complications and it can be quite dangerous. Nobody would go through all the physical pain, mental anguish and life changes unless it was absolutely the ONLY option left to them.

 

 

 

I know all the above as one of my best friends is TS, I was there and helped her through it all so I have experience of what she had to endure. So, should she have gone ahead and was surgery the best option for her? lets sum up her life before and after:

 

 

 

Before

 

She was totally unhappy.

 

Attemted suicide.

 

Constantly crying.

 

Introverted, closed off from the world.

 

Drinking to excess, she said she was trying to kill herself through alcohol.

 

Her job was suffering to the extent of employers going through motions to have her dismissed.

 

She referred to "That THING" between her legs, with total disgust, as if it was an alien in origin.

 

 

 

After

 

What a change, amazingly happy.

 

Always smiling, always chatty.

 

Her employers kept her on and now she is a valued member of staff.

 

Only drinks sociably.

 

She's such a lovely person to have around.

 

 

 

The above cannot really show 100% what a change surgery made to her life. Someone who you would class as manically depressive and in a state of suicide into someone who is constantly happy, so the question again:

 

Should she have gone ahead and was surgery the best option for her?

 

Absolutely YES.

 

 

 

I do believe that everyone is different and each case should be taken individually. I get the impression that there are true TS's and people who just think they are TS and can be happy without surgery. But for my friend, to me she is proof that this is a very real condition and that her hell has passed.

 

 

 

Reading through this forum thread I have seen something, should a TS girl be allowed to take part in a beauty pageant? Well yes of course, she only corrected a birth defect. Here's an analogy:

 

If someone was born without the use of their legs, and one day a surgeon developed a technique to fix the problem. Should they be allowed to run in the Olympics with all the people who were born able to walk and run? Well yes obviously, nobody will have any problems with that, in fact I will take a guess that people would say things like "Wow, well done you did really well!". But a TS taking part in a beauty contest? Well as far as I can tell it's because it is to do with sex, if you can just get past the homophobia you will see that she's just a girl like any other. Please don't say something stupid like "Well if she can't have children then she isn't female". What about women who were born with a defect to the ovaries or womb. One of my friends at school never had a period because of such, it devastated her to find out she will never be able to have children, but she is still female.

 

 

 

People who have a problem with TS's are the ones who need to update their views and get over the homophobia. You really know nothing of what TS's have to go endure and if you had any idea, you would be praising them for going through it all. My friend is much braver than everyone I know, I don't think I would have made it if I had been in her situation.

 

 

 

One last thing before I sign off, not all male to female TS's fancy men you know, some fancy women and they would be classed as [bleep]. Sexual preference and gender are not connected. Ask any lesbian if they would prefer to be a man and they would probably say "Definately not!" :D.

 

 

 

Thanks for reading,

 

Clare.[/hide]

 

That's interesting about the hypothalamus, but your brain doesn't establish what gender you are, it's whatever equipment you got down below when you were born, whether fully functional or not. Things like breasts and body shape are just useful indicators, but they're not vital. I'm a bit confused with your analogy though, it's saying that being male is like not having legs and being female is like having them, which can't be right. Men and women are just two equal halves.

 

The only time that I think that you should be able to choose your true gender is if you are a hermaphrodite. I am not against surgery if it is for the purpose of solving a psychological problem (if it works, do it), but I would not refer a TS 'originally born a man' as a woman.

[sohkmj1]

Hey, it's not her fault she was born a male with a female mind (which is probably the case)

[ClareJonsson]

 

That's interesting about the hypothalamus, but your brain doesn't establish what gender you are, it's whatever equipment you got down below when you were born, whether fully functional or not. Things like breasts and body shape are just useful indicators, but they're not vital. I'm a bit confused with your analogy though, it's saying that being male is like not having legs and being female is like having them, which can't be right. Men and women are just two equal halves.

 

The only time that I think that you should be able to choose your true gender is if you are a hermaphrodite. I am not against surgery if it is for the purpose of solving a psychological problem (if it works, do it), but I would not refer a TS 'originally born a man' as a woman.

 

It's attitudes like that, that makes it oh the more difficult for my friend. And yes there is physical a difference between female and male brains, specifically the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BST) in the hypothalamus, it's larger in males. And guess what, the BST in male to female TS's match that of a female. And this test has also been done on TSs that have never had HRT, so it's not the effects of Hormones, it's from birth.

 

 

 

Please update your own personal homophobia model or at least try to learn a little and be more accepting. I will bet my left arm that all the TS's out there that don't end up dead through suicide and actually make it out the other end happy are not only happier in their life than you are, they are also much braver than you or I ever will be.

[Kenshinjapan]

 

That's interesting about the hypothalamus, but your brain doesn't establish what gender you are, it's whatever equipment you got down below when you were born, whether fully functional or not. Things like breasts and body shape are just useful indicators, but they're not vital. I'm a bit confused with your analogy though, it's saying that being male is like not having legs and being female is like having them, which can't be right. Men and women are just two equal halves.

 

The only time that I think that you should be able to choose your true gender is if you are a hermaphrodite. I am not against surgery if it is for the purpose of solving a psychological problem (if it works, do it), but I would not refer a TS 'originally born a man' as a woman.

 

It's attitudes like that, that makes it oh the more difficult for my friend. And yes there is physical a difference between female and male brains, specifically the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BST) in the hypothalamus, it's larger in males. And guess what, the BST in male to female TS's match that of a female. And this test has also been done on TSs that have never had HRT, so it's not the effects of Hormones, it's from birth.

 

 

 

Please update your own personal homophobia model or at least try to learn a little and be more accepting. I will bet my left arm that all the TS's out there that don't end up dead through suicide and actually make it out the other end happy are not only happier in their life than you are, they are also much braver than you or I ever will be.

 

 

 

I respect your opinion but please don't make it sound like getting a sex change is a noble thing to do.

[amoeba_009]

I think its weird and wrong. Why? Because its not natural. Besides the whole she/he was trapped in the wrong body, i just find it messed up. Sorry if that makes me close minded, but I am entitled to my own opinion. I would probably be one of those people who throw rotten eggs at them. ;) Regarding the compition, there is no reason why it cannot compete, and why it cannot win. Unless its stipulated that it must have the required reproductive organs, which i dont think it should be. Im old fashoned, i wont be changeing that. For all those sp fans: IF I COULD SWIM WITH THE DOLPHINS

[Lionheart_0]

Well before you ever open your mouth about something you don't know, research. I'm not talking about your view on 'fairness' as relates to a beauty pageant, but I am talking about your nerve to talk bad about a minority you know nothing about. They don't brainwash themselves or others. Gender identity is a real psychological thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you mis-understood lenin on what he said (correct me if I'm wrong lenin).

 

 

 

He is not saying the fact that they are getting what they want (to look like a women) is an unfair advantage, more though the fact that they can make themselves almost perfect. Take it like this, he is saying it's like an athlete who takes steroids. They have an unfair advantage.

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with this women getting what she wants, but as said before, if no plastic surgery is allowed, then so be it. If you enter a competition where everyone has a 'natural' beauty, yet you have been shaped like clay to perfection, how exactly is that fair?

 

 

 

I think its weird and wrong. Why? Because its not natural. Besides the whole she/he was trapped in the wrong body, i just find it messed up. Sorry if that makes me close minded. I would probably be one of those people who throw rotten eggs at them.

 

 

 

It is not natural that we can fly in planes, it is not natural for us to move fast in cars.

 

 

 

Almost everything we do it not natural, and humanity as a collective is messed up. Ergo your argument is invalid.