9/11 7 years later

[acenator]

If you read Articles 84 and 105 of Part 3, Section 6, Chapter 3, you would see that the trials they were set up to receive in front of a military tribunal were perfectly fine under the Geneva accords.

 

 

 

As for interrogations, if you check Part 2, Article 13, you'd see that, so long as the prisoners aren't tortured to a state of health that puts their lives at risk, killed, or left to be harmed by anyone outside of the military's control, then the interrogations are perfectly legal.

 

 

 

My position is that we should do what it takes to save the lives of those whom these people would murder were they left to roam freely.

... And Article 17 states "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

 

 

 

For a political treaty, I have to say I think that section is pretty [bleep] unambiguous. No room for "well, we weren't really going to kill him". The first sentence of Article 13 is also an interesting - albeit slightly ambiguous - statement; "Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated." Yes. Well done.

 

 

 

What I was getting at though, was the significant number of detainees released without actually being sentenced for anything. "These people", are not guilty of anything because the US military saw fit to throw them into lock-up. Which is why so many - I believe someone quoted a number earlier - have been released. You're not talking about brutal treatment for individuals whose guilt is beyond all reasonable doubt; You're talking about brutal treatment for people who were in the wrong place, at the wrong time. The fact that the preceedent that sets for your governments actions doesn't scare the [cabbage] out of you, well, scares the [cabbage] out of me.

 

Very well, the Geneva Accords do, in fact, restrict countries from torturing prisoners of war. One little fact we both missed: the accords only apply to the "high contracting parties" or those that have ratified the accords (Article 2). Article 1 does state that "The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances," but if it really meant that the "high contracting parties" were to follow the accords "in all circumstances," then why (in Article 2) does it state that the Accords "shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them," if not to exempt nations of the restrictions of the Accords when fighting against enemies that do NOT belong to a "high contracting party" (or, in the case of terrorists, don't belong to any nation at all)?

 

 

 

Also, these actions don't scare me because, although the president has the power to detain American citizens without charges as enemy combatants (Supreme Court case Hamdi v. Rumsfeld), I am still protected by the Constitution. They should also not scare you because, chances are, you belong to a "high contracting party" of the Geneva Accords and would therefore fall under their protection were the U.S. to go to war with your country.

[Blingkachi50]

We'll never forget. <--- [cabbage].

 

 

 

Much worse tragedies then 9/11 have happened, yet us whiny americans expect all the attention. And yes, I'm from the U.S.

[Zierro]

We'll never forget. <--- [cabbage].

 

 

 

Much worse tragedies then 9/11 have happened, yet us whiny americans expect all the attention. And yes, I'm from the U.S.

 

 

 

I don't see how honoring thousands of innocent Americans who died is equal to "expecting attention". No one is forcing you to pay respect.

[Blingkachi50]

We'll never forget. <--- [cabbage].

 

 

 

Much worse tragedies then 9/11 have happened, yet us whiny americans expect all the attention. And yes, I'm from the U.S.

 

 

 

I don't see how honoring thousands of innocent Americans who died is equal to "expecting attention". No one is forcing you to pay respect.

 

 

 

Don't act like 9/11 and the war aren't horribly advertised in foreign countries. And I'm not posting anymore on this topic.

[Zierro]

You mentioned the saying, "We'll never forget." To me, that is implying our nation won't forget about the thousands of innocent lives lost - not "Hey, world! Feel bad for us please!" Besides, I think you misunderstand their intentions for the advertising.

[warri0r45]

We'll never forget. <--- [cabbage].

 

 

 

Much worse tragedies then 9/11 have happened, yet us whiny americans expect all the attention. And yes, I'm from the U.S.

 

 

 

I don't see how honoring thousands of innocent Americans who died is equal to "expecting attention". No one is forcing you to pay respect.

 

 

 

Don't act like 9/11 and the war aren't horribly advertised in foreign countries. And I'm not posting anymore on this topic.

 

 

 

They're not. Not in Australia at least.

 

 

 

What exactly is wrong with a country mourning it's dead in such a tragic event? My country pays respects to our war dead which passed away as long ago as World War One. No one here seems to mind that we do this every year. In fact, it's a day many of us get into and enjoy. Well, enjoy is probably the wrong word; we participate and aren't afraid to reflect on what's happened to some of our soldiers.

[BlueTear]

I don't seeing what being guilty has to do with torture. And I would say most of them are guilty. There are probably a few who were captured based on bad intelligence from other tribes or something but not that many.

While on the subject of treatment of people internet at Guantanmo, acenator stated: "My position is that we should do what it takes to save the lives of those whom these people would murder were they left to roam freely". This implies torture. My entire block of text was then directed at pointing out that because the system is not - like any system made my man - infalliable, not everyone who ends up in Guantanamo is a murderer of any kind, thus advocating their torture based on the murders they'd commit is advocating the torture of innocent people.

 

 

 

Or, in not quite so many words, standing on a moral high horse in which "these people" only get what they deserve, is a [bleep]ing naive approach.

 

Very well, the Geneva Accords do, in fact, restrict countries from torturing prisoners of war. One little fact we both missed: the accords only apply to the "high contracting parties" or those that have ratified the accords (Article 2). Article 1 does state that "The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances," but if it really meant that the "high contracting parties" were to follow the accords "in all circumstances," then why (in Article 2) does it state that the Accords "shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them," if not to exempt nations of the restrictions of the Accords when fighting against enemies that do NOT belong to a "high contracting party" (or, in the case of terrorists, don't belong to any nation at all)?

What, the 775 prisoners that's past through Guantanamo aren't citizens of any state?

 

 

 

If you are not a Prisoner of War, then you're a civilian. In which the provisions of the Fourth Geneva convention regarding the treatment of people on occupied nations soil - regardless of who said people are (possibly exception to mercenaries if memory serves me) - in which case we've got another one of those nice statements, Article 5, 4th Convention; "Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, " Say, terrorism. Further down, it goes on to say what you can do in the interest of your own security. Even further down, same article "In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention".

 

 

 

The legal vaccum whipped up by Bush regarding "illegal combatants" is not supported by ICC in Hague (or for that matter - though I might have misread something here, the US Supreme Court.).

 

 

 

Of course, this is strictly an intellectual debate, because quite clearly, the US is going to do it anyway and arguing about it here is a bit pointless. All I really wanted was to point out that you are - irregardless of the application of law - advocating the torture of innocent individuals because they might be guilty.

[raaarga]

People die every day.

[Blingkachi50]

People die every day.

 

 

 

Damn near as many people in Africa die a day as on 9/11. Yet hardly anything is done about that.

[dangeresque]

 

 

 

Damn near as many people in Africa die a day as on 9/11. Yet hardly anything is done about that.

 

 

 

And I'm not posting anymore on this topic.

 

 

 

Gf.

[Zierro]

People die every day.

 

 

 

Damn near as many people in Africa die a day as on 9/11. Yet hardly anything is done about that.

 

 

 

No one's stopping you from honoring those who die in Africa everyday. What are you saying? That because dying is a natural thing we're not allowed to mourn?

 

 

 

These are two separate things. 9/11 is symbolic of hatred (terrorists hijacking a plane and flying into skyscrapers in a busy city). The deaths in Africa are symbolic of how cruel life is when you're in poverty. They are quite different. If you want to have a day about honoring those with unfortunate lives, be my guest.

[ilya]

Happy 9/11 Everybody!

 

 

 

I'm surprised that no one is discussing this (it's September 11th today). I'm not the one to really state my opinion about matters on the Internet but I do enjoy reading other's.

 

 

 

RIP Americans

[evil_mumm_ra]

hey, honestly it's just another day. i'm an american, i watched the towers fall live on tv while in school. i still think they were some of the coolest damn explosions i've ever seen. yeah people died. sorry for their families. but it's 7 years later. christ on a cracker, i'm not even still mourning my grandpa who committed suicide a few years ago, or any other family members who died in the past 7 years. it's not that big of a deal.

[ilya]

hey, honestly it's just another day. i'm an american, i watched the towers fall live on tv while in school. i still think they were some of the coolest damn explosions i've ever seen. yeah people died. sorry for their families. but it's 7 years later. christ on a cracker, i'm not even still mourning my grandpa who committed suicide a few years ago, or any other family members who died in the past 7 years. it's not that big of a deal.

 

 

 

2009 - 2001 = 8.

 

This catastrophe happened 8 years ago.

 

But I agree with your opinion, it's not such a big deal compared to some of the things happening in the world.

[deathdrow]

hey, honestly it's just another day. i'm an american, i watched the towers fall live on tv while in school. i still think they were some of the coolest damn explosions i've ever seen. yeah people died. sorry for their families. but it's 7 years later. christ on a cracker, i'm not even still mourning my grandpa who committed suicide a few years ago, or any other family members who died in the past 7 years. it's not that big of a deal.

 

8*

 

My step dad died seven years ago, and my mom is mad because I won't go to a mass in his honour. She's still not over his death, and she cries about it every couple weeks, it's almost pathetic to be honest.

 

I remember when 9/11 happened, I was really pissed off because I couldn't watch spongebob.

[JeremyM]

hey, honestly it's just another day. i'm an american, i watched the towers fall live on tv while in school. i still think they were some of the coolest damn explosions i've ever seen. yeah people died. sorry for their families. but it's 7 years later. christ on a cracker, i'm not even still mourning my grandpa who committed suicide a few years ago, or any other family members who died in the past 7 years. it's not that big of a deal.

 

Your just Mr. Tough Guy then

[H2PM]

Its been 8 years by the way.

 

 

 

To be honest I think we need to just move on.

 

 

 

Christ, until the middle of the day I totally forgot about. Just acting as it was a normal day. Because it was.

 

 

 

Our school didn't even mourn. They probably did with the other grades, but not with us.

 

 

 

 

 

We just need to move on.

[evil_mumm_ra]

rofl. i didn't even realize i typoed. i blame the title. in my head i was thinking 8.

 

 

 

also, i didn't remember it was 9/11 today until this thread. :P

[RpgGamer]

Am I the only one that is sick of hearing about where people were "when it happened"? It just seems like every story is the same.

 

 

 

It happened, 7 years ago (I thought it was 8 since '09 minus 8 is '01) and nothing's changed. We're still at war, and the towers are no lnoger towers. It sucks. It was a terrible day for America, and a lot of other caring nations. But I am pretty sick of all this "what were YOU doing at the time" stuff. A lot of the upcoming generations are too yong to even remember it -.-. The Freshmen this year were what? like 7 years old? psh. I was 10 for the record.

[Nero]

Yes, on this day, 2000 years ago, over 20,000 brave Roman soldiers lost their lives to the barbaric tribes of Germania. But their sacrifice will not be in vain! Let us march on Germany once more!

 

*beats war drum*

[i_love_burritos]

I remember when 9/11 happened, I was really pissed off because I couldn't watch spongebob.

 

 

 

:lol:

 

 

 

Nothing to add really, as me saying anything will lead to me being burnt to a crisp.

 

 

 

But ... nothing wrong with honoring the dead. Australians do it every 25th of April.

 

But, take it in you mind, respect and understand what happenend. Then, move on. There is no need, to have the sick infatuation that some Americans have. I also find it funny, that 364 days of the year, you lead your lives normally, often not even remembering what did happen. The 11th rolls around and you're crying, mad, angry, vengeful.

 

 

 

Why ? :|

 

 

 

Yes, on this day, 2000 years ago, over 20,000 brave Roman soldiers lost their lives to the barbaric tribes of Germania. Their sacrifice will not be in vain! Let us march on Germany once more!

 

*beats war drum*

=D>

[Kenshinjapan]

Ugh, and I thought we were actually going to make it a year without this topic #-o .

[ilya]

Ugh, and I thought we were actually going to make it a year without this topic #-o .

 

 

 

We almost did, but I bumped it!

[Nenga]

Blah blah blah, Visa bucks.

 

 

 

9/11 happened, we mourned it to death, mourning stage is overwith. Can't move ahead if you get lost in the past.

[nerdboyxxx]

I'm surprised this hasn't been locked yet. A couple buildings were smashed. Big deal? I don't think so.

 

 

 

More people die in Africa every hour than the people who died in a supposedly 'fireproof' building in their supposedly 'perfect' country, where nothing bad could POSSIBLY happen because the average IQ is sooooo much higher than the rest of the world, and the architects and US military could have done nothing to prevent this!

 

 

 

If you still haven't realised, half of the above sentence is sarcasm.

 

 

 

If the above offended you, you are clearly still living in your little bubble. If it didn't, congratulations! You have an understanding of the world and have earned the title of "".

 

 

 

That is the exact reason why people remember it. Because the US thought they WERE invincible, that they couldn't be touched, and terrorism wouldn't reach their borders and cause such a disaster.

 

 

 

I do agree that the patriotic people couldn't give two [cabbage]s about other countries, and have their heads up their [wagon].

 

 

 

The media, also, don't help by milking this story. Someone should get the media under control. The thing I hate most in the world is the media...

 

 

 

The media milk this