Slayer Sucks

[Obtaurian]

You kill spectres with karils and a unicorn. That's about as inefficient as you can get. You're a step up from the guy killing spectres in full rune.

 

 

 

You can brag about your internet connection and PR0 ZMI RUNZ all you want, but in the end, you're still a terrible Slayer. Again, read Zarfot's guide. It's quite informative.

 

 

 

I would like to hear a detailed argument as to why slaying spectres in karils with a unicorn is infinitely more efficient than killing them with a cannon, prayer, and combat familiar/macaw. I've read through your thread, and I've read through pages 7 to 36 or wherever your horribly ambiguous directions tell us to look. There is a simple figure that you can give us that requires a line or two of text: the max experience rate for YOUR method of killing spectres vs. the max experience rate for Zarfot's (well, pretty much any Slayer who knows what he's doing) method.

 

 

 

Should be incredibly simple to give us that little bit of information which, quite conveniently, I cannot find.

[compfreak847]

 

I don't want to be a wannabe mod, but don't argue over established rates earlier in the post. Tomorrow i'll make it my job to compile the rates in a spreadsheet of doom, death, and destruction. And if you don't want to believe it then don't >.>

 

Please don't. I don't want this thread to buried in an avalanche of spam. As it is, people are forced to read the thread to obtain my rates, something they should be doing anyway. We'll get far to many posters coming in with "LULZ UR MELEEING DEMONS IDIOT LULZ", as we've already seen. Bottom line: Read and understand ALL of my thread, or don't waste my and everyone elses time with an uninformed post.

 

 

 

 

You kill spectres with karils and a unicorn. That's about as inefficient as you can get. You're a step up from the guy killing spectres in full rune.

 

 

 

You can brag about your internet connection and PR0 ZMI RUNZ all you want, but in the end, you're still a terrible Slayer. Again, read Zarfot's guide. It's quite informative.

 

 

 

I would like to hear a detailed argument as to why slaying spectres in karils with a unicorn is infinitely more efficient than killing them with a cannon, prayer, and combat familiar/macaw. I've read through your thread, and I've read through pages 7 to 36 or wherever your horribly ambiguous directions tell us to look. There is a simple figure that you can give us that requires a line or two of text: the max experience rate for YOUR method of killing spectres vs. the max experience rate for Zarfot's (well, pretty much any Slayer who knows what he's doing) method.

 

 

 

Should be incredibly simple to give us that little bit of information which, quite conveniently, I cannot find.

 

Then perhaps you should look more carefully. I've already explained why I'm not simply throwing out an XP rate, it'll simply give people like you free reign to come in, read the last few posts and flame without a single fact to back them up.

[Obtaurian]

 

I don't want to be a wannabe mod, but don't argue over established rates earlier in the post. Tomorrow i'll make it my job to compile the rates in a spreadsheet of doom, death, and destruction. And if you don't want to believe it then don't >.>

 

Please don't. I don't want this thread to buried in an avalanche of spam. As it is, people are forced to read the thread to obtain my rates, something they should be doing anyway. We'll get far to many posters coming in with "LULZ UR MELEEING DEMONS IDIOT LULZ", as we've already seen. Bottom line: Read and understand ALL of my thread, or don't waste my and everyone elses time with an uninformed post.

 

 

 

 

You kill spectres with karils and a unicorn. That's about as inefficient as you can get. You're a step up from the guy killing spectres in full rune.

 

 

 

You can brag about your internet connection and PR0 ZMI RUNZ all you want, but in the end, you're still a terrible Slayer. Again, read Zarfot's guide. It's quite informative.

 

 

 

I would like to hear a detailed argument as to why slaying spectres in karils with a unicorn is infinitely more efficient than killing them with a cannon, prayer, and combat familiar/macaw. I've read through your thread, and I've read through pages 7 to 36 or wherever your horribly ambiguous directions tell us to look. There is a simple figure that you can give us that requires a line or two of text: the max experience rate for YOUR method of killing spectres vs. the max experience rate for Zarfot's (well, pretty much any Slayer who knows what he's doing) method.

 

 

 

Should be incredibly simple to give us that little bit of information which, quite conveniently, I cannot find.

 

Then perhaps you should look more carefully. I've already explained why I'm not simply throwing out an XP rate, it'll simply give people like you free reign to come in, read the last few posts and flame without a single fact to back them up.

 

 

 

I read the entire thread once when I first found it a long time ago, and again recently. It's a simple exp rate, and you're just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. In a debate, you cannot simply cite a reference and then chastise your opponent for not reading your library of cluttered research. It's also extremely odd that NO ONE can find these rates of yours, even Ydrasil who was there when you posted them. Organize your damn thoughts in a single post. It is not hard. All we need is a table of numbers, not your explanations and blah blah blah. I'd bet that 3/4 of that text is you throwing around snide comments and belittling your opponent for no reason other than enlarging your E-member.

[compfreak847]

I read the entire thread once when I first found it a long time ago, and again recently. It's a simple exp rate, and you're just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. In a debate, you cannot simply cite a reference and then chastise your opponent for not reading your library of cluttered research. It's also extremely odd that NO ONE can find these rates of yours, even Ydrasil who was there when you posted them. Organize your damn thoughts in a single post. It is not hard. All we need is a table of numbers, not your explanations and blah blah blah. I'd bet that 3/4 of that text is you throwing around snide comments and belittling your opponent for no reason other than enlarging your E-member.

 

Do you really have that hard of a time reading my posts? I've already stated, quite a few times, that people like you and miner mean posting a simple XP table will lead to flamers who didn't bother to read my thread. If you've read it, you have no problem with my rates, so don't bother responding unless you do so.

[Deathmath]

Sure, I won't. :lol:

 

 

 

It's in there called up as needed. At least I can look at it myself. :thumbsup:

 

 

 

And many things in life don't seem like they appear. Compfreak's methods may seem ritarded, but they aren't. The math is there...

 

 

 

If you are here to argue methods don't. :roll:

[compfreak847]

 

If you are here to argue methods don't. :roll:

 

No, no... Do argue them, but don't do as everyone else has done and say "your methods are [developmentally delayed]ed". Give me numbers proving it, just as I have done for my argument.

[zalitz_miner]

XP per hour with slayer: 50k

 

XP per hour with Zombie Monkies: 110k

 

 

 

XP per hour with slayer: 50k, Profit per hour: 50k

 

XP per hour with monkies: 110k, Profit per hour: (-40k)

 

 

 

And those rates are not just thrown out there, free for "flamers" to argue only after reading the first post? That whole argument is just dumb in my opinion. It'd be the same with a table of experience and profit rates. Like I said, post the numbers, link to the testing information that backs them up for anyone that wants to check it. You are just being stubborn and/or lazy. It's much much easier for someone who should know their rates and have them on hand to post them all than it is for someone to go through 70 forum pages of posts where multiple experience rates and methods are discussed (interspersed with flames,snide comments, petty arguments).

[compfreak847]

XP per hour with slayer: 50k

 

XP per hour with Zombie Monkies: 110k

 

 

 

XP per hour with slayer: 50k, Profit per hour: 50k

 

XP per hour with monkies: 110k, Profit per hour: (-40k)

 

 

 

And those rates are not just thrown out there, free for "flamers" to argue only after reading the first post? That whole argument is just dumb in my opinion. It'd be the same with a table of experience and profit rates. Like I said, post the numbers, link to the testing information that backs them up for anyone that wants to check it. You are just being stubborn and/or lazy. It's much much easier for someone who should know their rates and have them on hand to post them all than it is for someone to go through 70 forum pages of posts where multiple experience rates and methods are discussed (interspersed with flames,snide comments, petty arguments).

 

Those aren't the rates being discussed, and they certainly aren't my rates as pertaining to this argument. The first 40-50 pages are dedicated to the rates in question, you should check it out.

[Mischlings]

Those aren't the rates being discussed, and they certainly aren't my rates as pertaining to this argument. The first 40-50 pages are dedicated to the rates in question, you should check it out.

 

 

 

And yet again, you completely overlook the point.

 

 

 

Look, you want intelligent, informed debate? Make the information easy to find. You'll be doing the people here a favor and doing yourself a favor as well, since you'll have less drivel to read and a higher chance of someone actually reading the information you want discussed. Kind of a win-win, unless you like things being difficult for everyone (which I'm beginning to think is the case).

[compfreak847]

Those aren't the rates being discussed, and they certainly aren't my rates as pertaining to this argument. The first 40-50 pages are dedicated to the rates in question, you should check it out.

 

 

 

And yet again, you completely overlook the point.

 

 

 

Look, you want intelligent, informed debate? Make the information easy to find. You'll be doing the people here a favor and doing yourself a favor as well, since you'll have less drivel to read and a higher chance of someone actually reading the information you want discussed. Kind of a win-win, unless you like things being difficult for everyone (which I'm beginning to think is the case).

 

You. Have. To. Read. The. Replies. To. Obtain. Details. Of. My. Rates. And. Methods. Along. With. Calculations. To. Prove. Those. Methods. The. Most. Efficient.

 

 

 

What's so hard about that? Is it really that unreasonably to ask people to read responses to my thread before posting?

[Mischlings]

You. Have. To. Read. The. Replies. To. Obtain. Details. Of. My. Rates. And. Methods. Along. With. Calculations. To. Prove. Those. Methods. The. Most. Efficient.

 

 

 

What's so hard about that? Is it really that unreasonably to ask people to read responses to my thread before posting?

 

 

 

When it's 70 pages of insanity with rates mixed in with all sorts of side comments and arguments that completely detract from the discussion and serve no purpose but to frustrate the reader, yes. It would be a hell of a lot easier if the information was in one place. But really, it's your call -- if you don't want anyone to understand what the hell you're talking about because all the relevant information is lost in a sea of irrelevancy, go right ahead.

[compfreak847]

You. Have. To. Read. The. Replies. To. Obtain. Details. Of. My. Rates. And. Methods. Along. With. Calculations. To. Prove. Those. Methods. The. Most. Efficient.

 

 

 

What's so hard about that? Is it really that unreasonably to ask people to read responses to my thread before posting?

 

 

 

When it's 70 pages of insanity with rates mixed in with all sorts of side comments and arguments that completely detract from the discussion and serve no purpose but to frustrate the reader, yes. It would be a hell of a lot easier if the information was in one place. But really, it's your call -- if you don't want anyone to understand what the hell you're talking about because all the relevant information is lost in a sea of irrelevancy, go right ahead.

 

Apparently you haven't bothered to read the first 40 pages. Really, just read my or ydraisel's posts - we both quote each other. There was a lot less flaming then is going on now, possibly because people were actually reading the whole thing. It seems to come in cycles, there's waves of stuipd posts that taper off to a relevant discussion, then reemerge later on. I think they feed off each other - if they see someone else posting their incorrect opinion, it encourages them to follow up on it and argue it without bothering to read the relevant posts.

[Obtaurian]

All you're doing is deliberately making it difficult for anyone to argue against you. It's not that you're right, you've just buried your statistics and evidence in 40 pages of dribble. If you were really so confident, you'd post everything on the front page.

 

 

 

Also, I find it extremely laughable that you honestly believe your methods to be efficient in any way. I don't need numbers or tables to tell you that using a cannon is faster than not using one. If you're not aware of that, I can only assume that you've not done the quest for the cannon, or perhaps you have done it, and just never used it. Which is it, O Lord of Debate? Zarfot wrote an end-all guide to Slayer, and you're claiming that he is wrong. I'm afraid that your level of 85 is pitiful compared to his 30m experience.

 

 

 

You can't even kill Dark Beasts, what the hell gives you the right to argue that slayer is poor experience?

 

^If you don't recognize that, it's similar to the argument you used against me when we discussed combat familiars.

[Lord_Firer]

I don't have time to read one thousand, four hundred and sixty three posts sorry.

 

 

 

I think I have figured out why people are getting so agitated. You say slayer sucks, but the fact is that is all your opinion. The fact is, slayer does not suck. It is a good skill. It may not be the most efficient, cost effective, blah, blah, blah, but it is still a fun skill to level, unlike some other useless skills (fire making :P ). You have a slayer level of 85, you cannot say you hate it after all that.

[ydrasil]

I'm gone for like 2 days and I miss a heap of discussion. Had no internet for past couple days -.- . Am now on adsl2+ (didn't get as fast a connection I was hoping for, but still much better) so my net is faster and more downloads :thumbsup: .

 

 

 

Most of the responses I don't feel I need to respond to as Morningrise333 covered them quite well.

 

 

 

But they were examples of factors that must be considered in numbers, something we already did earlier.

 

They are considered, but are irrelevant. That is my point. In performing the tests for the average rate of experience, those factors are already assounted for and boost/reduce your average rate accordingly. Sure you can mention they are there, but to reiterate - they are irrelevant.

 

 

 

Where is the value of experience based on range vs. melee XP? And I am discussing 400k as a non-luck method. We aren't suddenly changing the rate after 73 pages.

 

:wall:

 

We went through this earlier in the thread. There is no set amount for the value of experience. Everyone values experience in each skill differently, so you cannot add in the value of experience here. The smiley also refers to you mentioning the 400k again. I wasn't doing that for everyone else, that was specifically for you. I was showing that you are inefficient. As you have posted in many other threads, you claim you can get up to 825k from Aviansies, 600k (I think it was) from Green Dragons and also 1mil or so from Godwars (all on an hourly basis). Not to mention I am sure you have other money making methods. Since you make that much, you are being inefficient for not utilising the cannon. Yet over and over you have tried to claim you are an efficient Slayer, this shows you are not. That is what I was trying to convey.

 

 

 

Those were before I introduced my own rates in comparison. I'm simply saying that we didn't use inaccurate rates for 40 pages and suddenly noticed it now.

 

But I have no recollection of you posting your rates and you refuse to post them again or tell me where to find them (saying middle of the thread or page 15-50 or whatever else like that, is not telling me exactly where). The fact that you have said you would do a comparison between mine and yours had indicated you had the rates. You claimed you lost them on your computer. However since (i'm assuming here) you would have known that before you posted that you would compare, that can only mean you knew where to find them. Since that is the case, it should not be this hard for you to tell me exactly where they are.

 

 

 

I could make the same argument against you. Why are you so tenaciously trying to tell me what I meant? You never said you always used prayers for brews, and I was operating under the assumption that you weren't using a cannon at specters.

 

More bs excuses to be honest. I'm not telling you what you meant. I am saying there is no logical way you could have come to the conclusion that I don't use protection prayers. There was also no logical reasoning to any of the conclusions you came to regarding this matter. It might just be me, but "You never said you always used prayers for brews" doesn't sound right to me. If what you were trying to say is that I never said that I used brews when I used protection prayers, than you are wrong. I specifically stated the conditions under which I would use Zamorak Brews. That condition was that if I was using a protection prayer and taking no damage that I would then use them. Everytime that condition is met, I used Zamorak Brews. Why is that so hard to understand.

 

 

 

The last part is where you again (I can't believe you can be this ignornant here) show you do not understand what I posted, did not actually read my post, or are a complete moron. You went under the assumption that I did not use a cannon there? Explain to me how you came to this conclusion. Especially consdering in the very same post I brought up the Zamorak Brews, I had posted this; "Tasks Cannoned - Aberrant Spectres, Bloodvelds, Dagannoths, Fire Giants, Scabarites and Suqahs." That means I told you I used a cannon there, and then you followed up by later coming to the conlusion that I do not? What possible explanation can you have for that?

 

 

 

Then why is your information so inconsistent? First we agree that a canon is inefficient and not to be included, then include it in your equipment. I'm not sure which "version" to believe.

 

Errr what? Where was my information inconcsistent. I never agreed a cannon was inefficient. You will never find a post where I say that because I have never agreed to that (how can you be this ignorant?). I have always used a cannon and always will because it is more efficient to use one, simple as that. Which is why it is included in my equipment.... I mean... using a cannon falls under what equipment I use right? :roll:

 

 

 

The only "version" you need to believe is the only "version" that was presented to you. That version is that a cannon is more efficient than no cannon.

 

 

 

Not to mention those calculations were based on only 400k profit per hour being possible. I get far more than that, making a cannon much more efficient that what it already was.... and you expect me to not use a cannon because you are under the delusion it is inefficient? How arrogant is that?

 

 

 

Nope, just an attention grabber. Reasonably accurate title, but "8 page analysis detailing how slayer derives less raw efficiency from training then Armored Zombies" just doesn't have the same ring to it :lol:

 

I would have said that title is also wrong because you have provided no such analysis.

 

 

 

Least overall time when all factors but time are equalized using rates from other 'best' methods separated for XP, profit, and other variables.

 

Well since you can only get Slayer experience by doing Slayer (at a reasonably rate), the overall best experience (across all skills) means that one method has to include getting Slayer experience. Also it might be just me, but that defintion seemed a bit confusing. You can't equalize every rate except time simultaneously. By that I mean each method will have a set profit (whether negative or postive) per experience point for that skill. The current debate shows this clearly.

 

 

 

Armoured Zombies (your rate):

 

146.3k experience per hour.

 

190k profit.

 

= 1.299gp profit per experience

 

 

 

Slayer (my current average rate):

 

195k experience per hour (I think it was, haven't gone back to check).

 

105k profit.

 

= 0.538gp profit per experience.

 

 

 

That is overall experience by the way. The point being that if you balnce the experience rates, the profit rates will not be equal. So you aren't equalizing all rates except time. So your definiton is wrong in that respect. Unless of course I am misunderstanding what you posted.

 

 

 

When casual slaying, not testing. There's a difference.

 

So you are inferring that my personal rate can only be gotten because I am testing? The test is based on how I "casually" train Slayer, so that is irrelevant.

 

 

 

Then perhaps you should look more carefully. I've already explained why I'm not simply throwing out an XP rate, it'll simply give people like you free reign to come in, read the last few posts and flame without a single fact to back them up.

 

At the very least you could message us the results and we won't repost them in the thread if you are that worried about it. I need your numbers to fully compare where you are going wrong (might sound a bit arrogant but you can't deny you seem to go far slower than what I do).

 

 

 

Do you really have that hard of a time reading my posts? I've already stated, quite a few times, that people like you and miner mean posting a simple XP table will lead to flamers who didn't bother to read my thread. If you've read it, you have no problem with my rates, so don't bother responding unless you do so.

 

That is beyond stupid. So if they have read the thread that must mean they agreed with your rates? And yet anyone who reads the thread will not find your rates for experience. How odd is that?

[compfreak847]

All you're doing is deliberately making it difficult for anyone to argue against you. It's not that you're right, you've just buried your statistics and evidence in 40 pages of dribble. If you were really so confident, you'd post everything on the front page.

 

 

 

Also, I find it extremely laughable that you honestly believe your methods to be efficient in any way. I don't need numbers or tables to tell you that using a cannon is faster than not using one. If you're not aware of that, I can only assume that you've not done the quest for the cannon, or perhaps you have done it, and just never used it. Which is it, O Lord of Debate? Zarfot wrote an end-all guide to Slayer, and you're claiming that he is wrong. I'm afraid that your level of 85 is pitiful compared to his 30m experience.

 

 

 

You can't even kill Dark Beasts, what the hell gives you the right to argue that slayer is poor experience?

 

^If you don't recognize that, it's similar to the argument you used against me when we discussed combat familiars.

 

So again, where are your numbers saying anything about a cannon? I haven't seen a single figure even remotely relating to efficiency calculations coming from you. Care to back up your 'facts', or are you simply spouting opinions?

 

 

 

 

They are considered, but are irrelevant. That is my point. In performing the tests for the average rate of experience, those factors are already assounted for and boost/reduce your average rate accordingly. Sure you can mention they are there, but to reiterate - they are irrelevant.

 

They all are relevant. For example, your tests for experience not differentiating between melee and range. Melee maxes out at 52-53k\h for max XP\h breaking even; range hits 165k. Melee XP is 3 times as valuble, and a cannon shifts the balance to range (and much less range at that).

 

 

 

 

:wall:

 

We went through this earlier in the thread. There is no set amount for the value of experience. Everyone values experience in each skill differently, so you cannot add in the value of experience here. The smiley also refers to you mentioning the 400k again. I wasn't doing that for everyone else, that was specifically for you. I was showing that you are inefficient. As you have posted in many other threads, you claim you can get up to 825k from Aviansies, 600k (I think it was) from Green Dragons and also 1mil or so from Godwars (all on an hourly basis). Not to mention I am sure you have other money making methods. Since you make that much, you are being inefficient for not utilising the cannon. Yet over and over you have tried to claim you are an efficient Slayer, this shows you are not. That is what I was trying to convey.

 

Very few high level players can obtain that from avansies, as many telling me I'm "wrong" (no, I'm not) show. There is no set amount for the value of experience, but in a debate you MUST use the most efficient method for obtaining it. You can't simply say "well there's no set value for anything so anyone who says they think slayer is best is right".

 

 

 

 

But I have no recollection of you posting your rates and you refuse to post them again or tell me where to find them (saying middle of the thread or page 15-50 or whatever else like that, is not telling me exactly where). The fact that you have said you would do a comparison between mine and yours had indicated you had the rates. You claimed you lost them on your computer. However since (i'm assuming here) you would have known that before you posted that you would compare, that can only mean you knew where to find them. Since that is the case, it should not be this hard for you to tell me exactly where they are.

 

Why is it so difficult for you to go back and read the thread? I've told you time and time again why I'm not going to simply list them here, so please stop parroting the same thing over and over. Your forcing me to do the same with asinine, repetitive arguments.

 

 

 

 

Errr what? Where was my information inconcsistent. I never agreed a cannon was inefficient. You will never find a post where I say that because I have never agreed to that (how can you be this ignorant?). I have always used a cannon and always will because it is more efficient to use one, simple as that. Which is why it is included in my equipment.... I mean... using a cannon falls under what equipment I use right? :roll:

 

 

 

The only "version" you need to believe is the only "version" that was presented to you. That version is that a cannon is more efficient than no cannon.

 

 

 

Not to mention those calculations were based on only 400k profit per hour being possible. I get far more than that, making a cannon much more efficient that what it already was.... and you expect me to not use a cannon because you are under the delusion it is inefficient? How arrogant is that?

 

I'm using 400k in my rates, period. I'm afraid you missed that ltitle part under my post. So trying to pretend that just because you can get X million per hour and therefore a cannon is more efficient for everyone is laughably absurd.

 

 

 

 

Well since you can only get Slayer experience by doing Slayer (at a reasonably rate), the overall best experience (across all skills) means that one method has to include getting Slayer experience. Also it might be just me, but that defintion seemed a bit confusing. You can't equalize every rate except time simultaneously. By that I mean each method will have a set profit (whether negative or postive) per experience point for that skill. The current debate shows this clearly.

 

 

 

Armoured Zombies (your rate):

 

146.3k experience per hour.

 

190k profit.

 

= 1.299gp profit per experience

 

 

 

Slayer (my current average rate):

 

195k experience per hour (I think it was, haven't gone back to check).

 

105k profit.

 

= 0.538gp profit per experience.

 

 

 

That is overall experience by the way. The point being that if you balnce the experience rates, the profit rates will not be equal. So you aren't equalizing all rates except time. So your definiton is wrong in that respect. Unless of course I am misunderstanding what you posted.

 

Notice the key word: Combat Training. All combat rates except time can be equalized; subtract profit\loss, summoning XP, and your left with XP over time.

 

 

 

 

So you are inferring that my personal rate can only be gotten because I am testing? The test is based on how I "casually" train Slayer, so that is irrelevant.

 

No, you completely took my quote out of context. I was saying that my rates were from testing, so the argument that I "only" got 45k\h when casually slaying has nothing whatsoever to do with testing.

 

 

 

 

At the very least you could message us the results and we won't repost them in the thread if you are that worried about it. I need your numbers to fully compare where you are going wrong (might sound a bit arrogant but you can't deny you seem to go far slower than what I do).

 

Messaging them is an option. I'll see how easy it is to extricate every task from the posts and PM them to you. Please do me a favor and don't repost them here, dealing with flame wars isn't high on my list of things I like about TIF :evil:

 

 

 

 

That is beyond stupid. So if they have read the thread that must mean they agreed with your rates? And yet anyone who reads the thread will not find your rates for experience. How odd is that?

 

Again, go back and read my posts. I'm afraid you missed the point behind many of them, like the part where I didn't say that everyone agrees with my rates #-o

 

 

 

I think I have figured out why people are getting so agitated. You say slayer sucks, but the fact is that is all your opinion. The fact is, slayer does not suck. It is a good skill. It may not be the most efficient, cost effective, blah, blah, blah, but it is still a fun skill to level, unlike some other useless skills (fire making :P ). You have a slayer level of 85, you cannot say you hate it after all that.

 

Yeah, I'm afraid you really didn't read much of anything. I love the skill, it's one of my favorites, but it is not the fastest method to train combat - and that is something that can only be backed up using numerical facts like XP rates.

[Obtaurian]

All you're doing is deliberately making it difficult for anyone to argue against you. It's not that you're right, you've just buried your statistics and evidence in 40 pages of dribble. If you were really so confident, you'd post everything on the front page.

 

 

 

Also, I find it extremely laughable that you honestly believe your methods to be efficient in any way. I don't need numbers or tables to tell you that using a cannon is faster than not using one. If you're not aware of that, I can only assume that you've not done the quest for the cannon, or perhaps you have done it, and just never used it. Which is it, O Lord of Debate? Zarfot wrote an end-all guide to Slayer, and you're claiming that he is wrong. I'm afraid that your level of 85 is pitiful compared to his 30m experience.

 

 

 

You can't even kill Dark Beasts, what the hell gives you the right to argue that slayer is poor experience?

 

^If you don't recognize that, it's similar to the argument you used against me when we discussed combat familiars.

 

So again, where are your numbers saying anything about a cannon? I haven't seen a single figure even remotely relating to efficiency calculations coming from you. Care to back up your 'facts', or are you simply spouting opinions?

 

 

 

 

Am I to assume that your argument is that slaying with a cannon is slower and less efficient than slaying without one? I'd just like to clarify. Perhaps I'll humor you and do a five minute test. Or you can ask any good Slayer, but that'd be much too difficult for you.

[ydrasil]

They all are relevant. For example, your tests for experience not differentiating between melee and range. Melee maxes out at 52-53k\h for max XP\h breaking even; range hits 165k. Melee XP is 3 times as valuble, and a cannon shifts the balance to range (and much less range at that).

 

This is basically all opinion here. You (only you) might value Melee experience 3 times as valuable compared to Range, that does not mean everyone, the average person, or even anyone else does. Assuming I understand you correctly with the rates however, you are saying that a cannon lowers your melee xp/h rate and increase the Ranged xp/h? Feel free to explain to be how those points you mentioned earlier (there were 7 of them) apply to those rates?

 

 

 

Your first point was less experience per hit, that is accounted for already. That is what comprises the rate, and overall you get more experience per hour. Point 2 was about picking up drops, already accounted for when you tested the rate. Point 3 has the same reasoning as 2. Point 4 was stupid and has no affect on anything what so ever. Point 5 was costs, which is already accounted in with the profit rate. Point 6 was costs related to cannon usagae. In general cannon will save on supplies not cost more, so this point is backwards. Finally spawn times, same reasoning as points 2 and 3.

 

 

 

I'll say again. Yes those points are what influence the hourly rate. No calculations need to be done on the rate to adjust for those though as they have been adjusted for already during the test. So again, when it comes to getting the rate of experience, those points are irrelevant in that no calculations need to be be done to adjust for them as they are already including.

 

 

 

Very few high level players can obtain that from avansies, as many telling me I'm "wrong" (no, I'm not) show. There is no set amount for the value of experience, but in a debate you MUST use the most efficient method for obtaining it. You can't simply say "well there's no set value for anything so anyone who says they think slayer is best is right".

 

Way to miss the point. What other players get is irrelevant here. I wasn't talking about or referring to them. It was purely about you. You claim you can get up to 825k on Aviansies and 1m at GWD. If that is true (i'm not trying to argue if it is or not, just showing the point), you are currently using inefficient methods in which to train Slayer. Ignore everyone else, I am talking about you here.

 

 

 

Again you bring up the value of experience, what you do not understand is that it cannot be calculated. The part in quoatation marks is pointless also as I have never said that or anything along those lines. You cannot add in a value of experience into the calculations here because it differs for every person. That is what you seem unable to comprehend.

 

 

 

Why is it so difficult for you to go back and read the thread? I've told you time and time again why I'm not going to simply list them here, so please stop parroting the same thing over and over. Your forcing me to do the same with asinine, repetitive arguments.

 

 

In reverse, why is so difficult for you? The only reason you have given for not wanting to post them is simply because that would give others less reason to read the entire thread? I can tell you right now, at the moment essentially no-one is going to read through the entire thread just to post a response.

 

 

 

I'm using 400k in my rates, period. I'm afraid you missed that ltitle part under my post. So trying to pretend that just because you can get X million per hour and therefore a cannon is more efficient for everyone is laughably absurd.

 

Did I say everyone? Have I ever inferred everyone? That response you quoted of mine came directly from your confusion of my apparent inconsistency. I replied (I have to go through it again because you seem to have misunderstood) back saying that I had never agreed a cannon was inefficient, so that part of your response is irrelevant. It was also the basis of that response, so the entire thing was irrelevant.

 

 

 

Explain to me why I should not use a cannon considering it is efficient to use one at 400k and I can easily make over double that? What logical reason would I have to give up that efficiency? Since I am sure you can do the same money-wise, what logical reason do you have to not use a cannon?

 

 

 

It is actually quite odd when you think about it. Your rate for Armoured Zombies comes from maxxed stats. Your maxed stats rate for Green Dragons is also 600k (around that anyway). I am sure there are many other things that maxed stats allows you get even higher profit rates. Do you see the dilemma here? You use the rate of experience for someone with maxed stats, but the profit rates of someone in the 80s (at a guess). So really it comes down to either the profit rate for someone who can get 103k per hour at Armoured Zombies is at least 600k per hour, or the profit rate is 400k per hour and they get about 80k per hour at Armoured Zombies. That is an inconsistency, what I had posted was not.

 

 

 

Notice the key word: Combat Training. All combat rates except time can be equalized; subtract profit\loss, summoning XP, and your left with XP over time.

 

Damn, I must have gone blind. I just couldn't seem to see the key words "combat training" anywhere at all. Also a quick note; Summoning experience is combat experience, just thought you should know. Either way, I know what combat experience over time is. I was pointing out your definiton of "efficient" was wrong, or at the very least you didn't type what you actually trying to convey.

 

 

 

No, you completely took my quote out of context. I was saying that my rates were from testing, so the argument that I "only" got 45k\h when casually slaying has nothing whatsoever to do with testing.

 

I should have expanded on what I meant. Your post was a response to where I said you are not efficient, you said - "When casual slaying, not testing. There's a difference." From this it is interpretted you are efficient while testing, not while casually slaying. In other words, you are only efficient when testing. I was pointing out (maybe not in the best way) that my casual slaying is the exact same methods and attention as testing. Meaning I am always efficient, not only when testing.

 

 

 

Messaging them is an option. I'll see how easy it is to extricate every task from the posts and PM them to you. Please do me a favor and don't repost them here, dealing with flame wars isn't high on my list of things I like about TIF :evil:

 

Finally we are getting somewhere. If you do message them to me I won't post them on the thread, but I will refer to them (obviously).

 

 

 

Again, go back and read my posts. I'm afraid you missed the point behind many of them, like the part where I didn't say that everyone agrees with my rates #-o

 

Refer to this quote of yours:

 

Do you really have that hard of a time reading my posts? I've already stated, quite a few times, that people like you and miner mean posting a simple XP table will lead to flamers who didn't bother to read my thread. If you've read it, you have no problem with my rates, so don't bother responding unless you do so.

 

Specifcally the bolded section. So by simply reading the thread, that means they agree with your rates? (I won't go into the lack of your rates) These 2 quotes are contradicting each other. You say not everyone agrees with your rates and then say if they have read the thread they agree with them.

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm afraid you really didn't read much of anything. I love the skill, it's one of my favorites, but it is not the fastest method to train combat - and that is something that can only be backed up using numerical facts like XP rates.

 

It is not the fastest (fastest combat experience per hour is using Chinchompas at Ape Atoll) combat experience in the game. But in my experience it is faster than Armoured Zombies, this is backed up with 'numerical facts'. About 20k combat experience faster, and then an additional 31k experience on top of that for Slayer.

[compfreak847]

 

This is basically all opinion here. You (only you) might value Melee experience 3 times as valuable compared to Range, that does not mean everyone, the average person, or even anyone else does. Assuming I understand you correctly with the rates however, you are saying that a cannon lowers your melee xp/h rate and increase the Ranged xp/h? Feel free to explain to be how those points you mentioned earlier (there were 7 of them) apply to those rates?

 

 

 

Your first point was less experience per hit, that is accounted for already. That is what comprises the rate, and overall you get more experience per hour. Point 2 was about picking up drops, already accounted for when you tested the rate. Point 3 has the same reasoning as 2. Point 4 was stupid and has no affect on anything what so ever. Point 5 was costs, which is already accounted in with the profit rate. Point 6 was costs related to cannon usagae. In general cannon will save on supplies not cost more, so this point is backwards. Finally spawn times, same reasoning as points 2 and 3.

 

 

 

I'll say again. Yes those points are what influence the hourly rate. No calculations need to be done on the rate to adjust for those though as they have been adjusted for already during the test. So again, when it comes to getting the rate of experience, those points are irrelevant in that no calculations need to be be done to adjust for them as they are already including.

 

Drop the argument that the value of XP cannot be determined. For that matter, the value of GP cannot be determined so any numbers related to profit should be ignored. After all, a level 3 thinks 1k is worth a lot more then a 138, right? :roll:

 

 

 

 

Way to miss the point. What other players get is irrelevant here. I wasn't talking about or referring to them. It was purely about you. You claim you can get up to 825k on Aviansies and 1m at GWD. If that is true (i'm not trying to argue if it is or not, just showing the point), you are currently using inefficient methods in which to train Slayer. Ignore everyone else, I am talking about you here.

 

 

 

Again you bring up the value of experience, what you do not understand is that it cannot be calculated. The part in quoatation marks is pointless also as I have never said that or anything along those lines. You cannot add in a value of experience into the calculations here because it differs for every person. That is what you seem unable to comprehend.

 

Because the entire thread HAS to use the assumption that values are based on time to obtain. Otherwise any other rate is meaningless; if one person values oak planks above all else, are armored zombies statistically superior to every other form of training? Of course not, the only common variable is time.

 

 

 

 

Did I say everyone? Have I ever inferred everyone? That response you quoted of mine came directly from your confusion of my apparent inconsistency. I replied (I have to go through it again because you seem to have misunderstood) back saying that I had never agreed a cannon was inefficient, so that part of your response is irrelevant. It was also the basis of that response, so the entire thing was irrelevant.

 

You specifically said (and your calculations showed) that a cannon was inefficient at 400k\h

 

 

 

 

Explain to me why I should not use a cannon considering it is efficient to use one at 400k and I can easily make over double that? What logical reason would I have to give up that efficiency? Since I am sure you can do the same money-wise, what logical reason do you have to not use a cannon?

 

 

 

It is actually quite odd when you think about it. Your rate for Armoured Zombies comes from maxxed stats. Your maxed stats rate for Green Dragons is also 600k (around that anyway). I am sure there are many other things that maxed stats allows you get even higher profit rates. Do you see the dilemma here? You use the rate of experience for someone with maxed stats, but the profit rates of someone in the 80s (at a guess). So really it comes down to either the profit rate for someone who can get 103k per hour at Armoured Zombies is at least 600k per hour, or the profit rate is 400k per hour and they get about 80k per hour at Armoured Zombies. That is an inconsistency, what I had posted was not.

 

Because this isn't personal rates, this is what is generally obtained. Testing must indicate such.

 

 

 

 

Damn, I must have gone blind. I just couldn't seem to see the key words "combat training" anywhere at all. Also a quick note; Summoning experience is combat experience, just thought you should know. Either way, I know what combat experience over time is. I was pointing out your definiton of "efficient" was wrong, or at the very least you didn't type what you actually trying to convey.

 

Gee, it might be a good idea to read through my posts then. It's not as I was ignoring combat training, now was I? :roll:

 

 

 

 

I should have expanded on what I meant. Your post was a response to where I said you are not efficient, you said - "When casual slaying, not testing. There's a difference." From this it is interpretted you are efficient while testing, not while casually slaying. In other words, you are only efficient when testing. I was pointing out (maybe not in the best way) that my casual slaying is the exact same methods and attention as testing. Meaning I am always efficient, not only when testing.

 

And what does that have to do with your testing rates? I talk to friends when I'm not testing; how is that affecting my testing rates?

 

 

 

 

Finally we are getting somewhere. If you do message them to me I won't post them on the thread, but I will refer to them (obviously).

 

OK, I'll begin assembling them. I'll re-create my excel spreadsheet with personal numbers. Just understand that I will not be including methods; they are in the original posts, and you can get find them along with calculations if you want to argue them.

 

 

 

 

Specifcally the bolded section. So by simply reading the thread, that means they agree with your rates? (I won't go into the lack of your rates) These 2 quotes are contradicting each other. You say not everyone agrees with your rates and then say if they have read the thread they agree with them.

 

Do you see where he posted rates differing with mine? Real rates, not "lolz cannon is faster ur nub lulz". Please point them out if you did, cause otherwise he doesn't have a single rate of his own.

 

 

 

 

It is not the fastest (fastest combat experience per hour is using Chinchompas at Ape Atoll) combat experience in the game. But in my experience it is faster than Armoured Zombies, this is backed up with 'numerical facts'. About 20k combat experience faster, and then an additional 31k experience on top of that for Slayer.

 

I wasn't aware you could train melee with chinchompas, and slayer XP is what we're discussing. I believe you tested incorrectly or are simply lying, and I'm sure you think the same of me. Hence the debate.

 

 

 

 

Am I to assume that your argument is that slaying with a cannon is slower and less efficient than slaying without one? I'd just like to clarify.

 

Gee, you think? It might be a good idea to read my posts.

 

 

 

Perhaps I'll humor you and do a five minute test. Or you can ask any good Slayer, but that'd be much too difficult for you.

 

5 minute test isn't going to be enough to overturn around 80 hours of cannon vs. melee, so I guess you'd better rethink that route. Never seen numbers from any other slayer, so you'll have to ask them to send me details of rates with and without, as well as specifics as to costs (prices change) and experience gained per skill plus statics like banking time.

[snowball]

287

 

 

 

I agree. Slayer does suck imo. I didn't really do slayer much but got into it a little bit. I found that whatever my task was, I got less XP or loot than i did with other tasks. I felt grinding at mossies was much faster at my level, along with allowing me quick acces to ardy herb patch, a bank, and some loot i could sell, rather than the couple rune meds I got from my last 3 slayer tasks.

[Lord_Firer]

 

 

 

I think I have figured out why people are getting so agitated. You say slayer sucks, but the fact is that is all your opinion. The fact is, slayer does not suck. It is a good skill. It may not be the most efficient, cost effective, blah, blah, blah, but it is still a fun skill to level, unlike some other useless skills (fire making :P ). You have a slayer level of 85, you cannot say you hate it after all that.

 

Yeah, I'm afraid you really didn't read much of anything. I love the skill, it's one of my favorites, but it is not the fastest method to train combat - and that is something that can only be backed up using numerical facts like XP rates.

 

 

 

If you love the skill, why contradict your self with 'slayer sucks' as the title, as it is purely misleading. I have read your entire article, but that was about a year ago =P

 

 

 

Your title should be more like:

 

 

 

'Ok, Slayer is a really bad way to train combat in my opinion, but is a fun skill to do! - RANT'

[Obtaurian]

 

 

Am I to assume that your argument is that slaying with a cannon is slower and less efficient than slaying without one? I'd just like to clarify.

 

Gee, you think? It might be a good idea to read my posts.

 

 

 

Perhaps I'll humor you and do a five minute test. Or you can ask any good Slayer, but that'd be much too difficult for you.

 

5 minute test isn't going to be enough to overturn around 80 hours of cannon vs. melee, so I guess you'd better rethink that route. Never seen numbers from any other slayer, so you'll have to ask them to send me details of rates with and without, as well as specifics as to costs (prices change) and experience gained per skill plus statics like banking time.

 

 

 

Your 80 hours is nothing compared to my 1,456 hours of testing. Prove me wrong. You can find my results in a post I made in Help & Advice a year ago, but I'm not going to find it for you because that would make things too easy.

 

 

 

In other words, post your goddamn results. I cannot find them between pages 7 and 36.

 

 

 

Read Zarfot's guide for rates.

 

 

 

Since you've agreed that you're arguing a cannon to be slower than not using one, I'll assume that you are attempting to troll. No mentally competent player would argue that. You're either stupid or having a good laugh. I'll assume all of the above.

[Italian5kamikaze]

I'm going to attempt to clear things up because I'm pretty sure I understand compfreaks reasoning.

 

 

 

Cannoning obviously produces faster kills seeing as you're hitting multiple enemies every second. However, you get no hp experience, a lot less melee exp since you'll be spending time picking up drops and reloading the cannon and the range exp is halved compared to other ranging weapons.

 

 

 

Now if I've been reading this all correctly, then what he is saying is that the 2 range exp you get for each damage done, the small amount of combat exp and no hp exp is not worth using a cannon since you're missing out on 4 exp and 1.33 exp you get each damage.

 

 

 

So basically, the cannon is taking most of your melee and hp exp away and in return, giving you crappy range exp.

 

 

 

Say for example you get a task of 100 dagannoth. If you melee the entire task you would get around 28k attack exp and about 9.2k hp exp. Now say you brought a cannon, at the end of the task you've obtained 14k ranged exp, 5.6k attack exp and about 1.8k hp exp. Besides missing out on exp, you also lose money on cballs.

 

 

 

I may be wrong, but that's the way I see it and I personally cannon tasks and would rather lose out on some exp in order to get a kalphite or dagannoth task done sooner but that's just because I don't like those tasks. If I want range exp, ill just go to aviansies or GWD until I can afford chins.

[Obtaurian]

I'm going to attempt to clear things up because I'm pretty sure I understand compfreaks reasoning.

 

 

 

Cannoning obviously produces faster kills seeing as you're hitting multiple enemies every second. However, you get no hp experience, a lot less melee exp since you'll be spending time picking up drops and reloading the cannon and the range exp is halved compared to other ranging weapons.

 

 

 

Now if I've been reading this all correctly, then what he is saying is that the 2 range exp you get for each damage done, the small amount of combat exp and no hp exp is not worth using a cannon since you're missing out on 4 exp and 1.33 exp you get each damage.

 

 

 

So basically, the cannon is taking most of your melee and hp exp away and in return, giving you crappy range exp.

 

 

 

Say for example you get a task of 100 dagannoth. If you melee the entire task you would get around 28k attack exp and about 9.2k hp exp. Now say you brought a cannon, at the end of the task you've obtained 14k ranged exp, 5.6k attack exp and about 1.8k hp exp. Besides missing out on exp, you also lose money on cballs.

 

 

 

I may be wrong, but that's the way I see it and I personally cannon tasks and would rather lose out on some exp in order to get a kalphite or dagannoth task done sooner but that's just because I don't like those tasks. If I want range exp, ill just go to aviansies or GWD until I can afford chins.

 

 

 

But you greatly increase Slayer experience, which is the main goal of Slayer.

[Italian5kamikaze]

I understand that but I think you're missing his main point in all of this so I'll quote him from the very first post.

 

 

 

 

In short, saying 'slayer is the best way to train combat' is a horribly wrong statement. A correct version would be 'slayer is a slow and unprofitable way to train combat, but if you enjoy the skill it is worth training. Just know that you will be losing out on a large amount of XP and GP.' I have nothing against slayer, but I get tired of people saying that it is the best way to train combat...

 

 

 

 

So yes, you get faster slayer exp but you're missing out on a ton of combat exp and losing money on most tasks.

 

 

 

Slayer is not a good way to train combat, cannoning slayer is not an efficient way to train combat even if you are getting slayer exp.