Closed.

[Veritas94]

But a mage with 99 mage and non maxed melee will only be level 109, but a maxed meleer will be level 126.

 

 

 

??? Your argument still makes no sense, mage uses less levels, so melee should be brought down to the levels a mage would have.

 

 

 

There is a reason level 138's can't attack level 20's in pvp worlds.

 

 

 

You don't get it, do you? The mage will also have trained attack, strength, and defense. In the real runescape, you train everything, and there is an infinite number of possibilities and level combinations of levels you can face at lowers levels. A mage at level 126 vs. a meleer at 126 illustrates end game stats and the fact that at higher and higher levels, magic grows more and more obsolete. What we want to actually do is evaluate magic, melee, and ranged in their raw form without looking at level differences, and the only way to do this compare foes with perfect stats, which eliminates the need for for guesswork.

 

 

 

Indeed, the only difference between the meleer and mage in my scenario does not exist in their stats, but in the way they're attacking each other (One is choosing to use mage, and the other is choosing to use melee).

[Obtaurian]

But a mage with 99 mage and non maxed melee will only be level 109, but a maxed meleer will be level 126.

 

 

 

??? Your argument still makes no sense, mage uses less levels, so melee should be brought down to the levels a mage would have.

 

 

 

There is a reason level 138's can't attack level 20's in pvp worlds.

 

 

 

You don't get it, do you? The mage will also have trained attack, strength, and defense. In the real runescape, you train everything, and there is an infinite number of possibilities and level combinations of levels you can face at lowers levels. A mage at level 126 vs. a meleer at 126 illustrates end game stats and the fact that at higher and higher levels, magic grows more and more obsolete. What we want to actually do is evaluate magic, melee, and ranged without looking at level differences, and the only way to do this compare foes with perfect stats, which eliminates the need for for guesswork.

 

 

 

Indeed, the only difference between the meleer and mage in my scenario does not exist in their stats, but in the way they're attacking each other (One is choosing to use mage, and the other is choosing to use melee).

 

 

 

But we've already established that in a match between a hybrid mage and hybrid warrior, the mage would win. Let me get this straight:

 

 

 

The warrior is using melee and range equipment.

 

The mage is using mage and melee equipment.

 

 

 

If that's the case, the mage wins, hands down.

[Veritas94]

 

 

 

But we've already established that in a match between a hybrid mage and hybrid warrior, the mage would win. Let me get this straight:

 

 

 

The warrior is using melee and range equipment.

 

The mage is using mage and melee equipment.

 

 

 

If that's the case, the mage wins, hands down.

 

 

 

Now we're getting somewhere. The mage is NOT using melee equipment. The reason he isn't is because (1) Melee armor subtracts from magic attack bonuses (2) Wearing melee weapons means that the mage isn't actually a mage, but is a meleer.

 

 

 

The warrior IS using ranged armor, because for some absurd reason Jagex decided it likes melee better and that ranged armor wouldn't subtract from melee attack bonuses, after all.

 

 

 

A sad attempt at balance, on Jagex's part.

[Obtaurian]

 

 

 

But we've already established that in a match between a hybrid mage and hybrid warrior, the mage would win. Let me get this straight:

 

 

 

The warrior is using melee and range equipment.

 

The mage is using mage and melee equipment.

 

 

 

If that's the case, the mage wins, hands down.

 

 

 

Now we're getting somewhere. The mage is NOT using melee equipment. The reason he isn't is because (1) Melee armor subtracts from magic attack bonuses (2) Wearing melee weapons means that the mage isn't actually a mage, but is a meleer.

 

 

 

The warrior IS using ranged armor, because for some absurd reason Jagex decided it likes melee better and that ranged armor wouldn't subtract from melee attack bonuses, after all.

 

 

 

A sad attempt at balance, on Jagex's part.

 

 

 

Why? Why is armor not considered to be part of the combat triangle?

[Veritas94]

Why? Why is armor not considered to be part of the combat triangle?

 

 

 

I'll quote an earlier post of mine to explain why (By the way, I really gotta go to sleep now):

 

 

 

A warrior who straps on ranged armor is a warrior. The type of damage he is dealing is melee damage. A mage using a warrior weapon is not hybriding. He's switching the type of damage he's doing, so he's actually a warrior wearing mage armor. The thing that separates the three classes is the unique way each of them assaults their enemies. Their armor is there simply to aid them in some way.

 

 

 

By switching to melee, magic once again becomes the very thing it shouldn't become - a support skill. Magic users should be viable against melee users either by: having meleers' melee stats be impeded by the use of dragonhide or magic users should have defenses/armor that can withstand melee attacks appropriately and not subtract from their magic attack bonus (No, I don't consider Ahrims adequate defense). I know, this doesn't simply involve allowing mages to wear rune, because then rangers would have a hard time with mages; if a comprehensive rework of the types of damage done by each class is required, then so be it.

 

 

 

I'll be back at this as soon as possible, but the sleep calls. Thought you might appreciate this image, "Morningrise."

 

 

 

[Obtaurian]

Why? Why is armor not considered to be part of the combat triangle?

 

 

 

I'll quote an earlier post of mine to explain why (By the way, I really gotta go to sleep now):

 

 

 

A warrior who straps on ranged armor is a warrior. The type of damage he is dealing is melee damage. A mage using a warrior weapon is not hybriding. He's switching the type of damage he's doing, so he's actually a warrior wearing mage armor. The thing that separates the three classes is the unique way each of them assaults their enemies. Their armor is there simply to aid them in some way.

 

 

 

By switching to melee, magic once again becomes the very thing it shouldn't become - a support skill. Magic users should be viable against melee users either by: having meleers' melee stats be impeded by the use of dragonhide or magic users should have defenses/armor that can withstand melee attacks appropriately and not subtract from their magic attack bonus (No, I don't consider Ahrims adequate defense). I know, this doesn't simply involve allowing mages to wear rune, because then rangers would have a hard time with mages; if a comprehensive rework of the types of damage done by each class is required, then so be it.

 

 

 

Oh, I see. So the best solution is to take away armor, is it not? Weapons only. I don't agree with you that the type of damage being dealt indicates the class being used, but we can compromise here by taking away the armor!

 

 

 

So one player using a whip vs another player using a staff or wand, correct? Wow. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

[Veritas94]

The solution is the have ranged armor subtract attack bonuses from melee. Another solution is to give mages armor that is stronger against melee.

 

 

 

Kk, g'night.

[Obtaurian]

The solution is the have ranged armor subtract attack bonuses from melee. Another solution is to give mages armor that is stronger against melee.

 

 

 

Kk, g'night.

 

 

 

Mages have higher slash defense than rangers. Goodnight.

 

 

 

EDIT: My name is the name of the second Opeth album, which at the time was my favorite one. :)

[ydrasil]

 

 

 

But we've already established that in a match between a hybrid mage and hybrid warrior, the mage would win. Let me get this straight:

 

 

 

The warrior is using melee and range equipment.

 

The mage is using mage and melee equipment.

 

 

 

If that's the case, the mage wins, hands down.

 

 

 

Now we're getting somewhere. The mage is NOT using melee equipment. The reason he isn't is because (1) Melee armor subtracts from magic attack bonuses (2) Wearing melee weapons means that the mage isn't actually a mage, but is a meleer.

 

 

 

The warrior IS using ranged armor, because for some absurd reason Jagex decided it likes melee better and that ranged armor wouldn't subtract from melee attack bonuses, after all.

 

 

 

A sad attempt at balance, on Jagex's part.

 

You are trying to argue that the Mage suddenly is no longer a mage because they can attack with the whip? That by equipping a a Whip they become a meleer, but in magic robes. If as you have mentioned many times that class is dictated by damage dealt, the Mage can still use magic, regardless of what weapon is equipped. The truth is they are hybriding. The same is said for the Warrior who uses Range armour.

 

 

 

What dictates what you are is both weapon and armour. The easiest way to explain this to you is that the armour has a requirement in the type of combat it is used primarily for. Example being Ahrim's requires 70 Magic, Black Dragon hide requires 70 Range.

[Sir_Kurity]

But a mage with 99 mage and non maxed melee will only be level 109, but a maxed meleer will be level 126.

 

 

 

??? Your argument still makes no sense, mage uses less levels, so melee should be brought down to the levels a mage would have.

 

 

 

There is a reason level 138's can't attack level 20's in pvp worlds.

 

 

 

You don't get it, do you? The mage will also have trained attack, strength, and defense. In the real runescape, you train everything, and there is an infinite number of possibilities and level combinations of levels you can face at lowers levels. A mage at level 126 vs. a meleer at 126 illustrates end game stats and the fact that at higher and higher levels, magic grows more and more obsolete. What we want to actually do is evaluate magic, melee, and ranged in their raw form without looking at level differences, and the only way to do this compare foes with perfect stats, which eliminates the need for for guesswork.

 

 

 

Indeed, the only difference between the meleer and mage in my scenario does not exist in their stats, but in the way they're attacking each other (One is choosing to use mage, and the other is choosing to use melee).

 

 

 

So the fact that mage uses 17 less combat levels means nothing at all?

 

 

 

Even if it used the same combat levels, it would still be a match for melee, (compfreaks alrdy proved that numerous times) let alone with less, id say its pretty damn strong, just hard to use.

 

 

 

In real runescape, combat levels matter.

 

 

 

Good luck.

[Imamonkey]

and the fact that at higher and higher levels, magic grows more and more obsolete.

 

 

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I think some of those high leveled Ancient spells are pretty damn sweet!

 

 

 

I don't think the problem here is that Magic is absurdly underpowered. I think you want it so overpowered that there is no competition for you. I think you don't want to have to adapt to the other people that are adapting. You are lazy and you don't want to have to worry about using anything but your robes and a staff.

 

 

 

Good luck with that one.

 

 

 

Adapt, take the advice given, or get over it.

[3hitm4g3u]

 

Now assume someone has 99 mage and range, with 70 attack and 78 str (sorry its 148 combined str and attack, i was wrong) str and 99 hp and everything else.

 

 

 

 

Actually that would be melee based ;) .

 

 

 

Attack and strength combined has to be UNDER 148.

[Hubs]

Explain this to me:

 

 

 

If mage is:

 

 

 

1) NOT ridiculously overpriced

 

2) NOT underpowered

 

 

 

Why is it that:

 

 

 

1) Mages can only kill NOOBS in 1v1

 

2) The majority of players are meleers

 

3) Mages are penalized in melee armor, while meleers can wear dhide without reductions?

 

 

 

I'll answer that for you. The reason most players are meleers isn't because they're noobs (hard to believe). No, the reason they wear those dragon med helms is because mage is extremely overpriced for its power. If mage was as balanced (or overpowered [Yeah, right], as you say it is), then why is there not a balance in players that are mages, rangers, and meleers? Answer that.

 

 

 

No matter what you say, you cannot deny what you see in the game: Hordes of meleers (and for a good reason [ie, mage = useless in combat]).

[Veritas94]

Explain this to me:

 

 

 

If mage is:

 

 

 

1) NOT ridiculously overpriced

 

2) NOT underpowered

 

 

 

Why is it that:

 

 

 

1) Mages can only kill NOOBS in 1v1

 

2) The majority of players are meleers

 

3) Mages are penalized in melee armor, while meleers can wear dhide without reductions?

 

 

 

I'll answer that for you. The reason most players are meleers isn't because they're noobs (hard to believe). No, the reason they wear those dragon med helms is because mage is extremely overpriced for its power. If mage was as balanced (or overpowered [Yeah, right], as you say it is), then why is there not a balance in players that are mages, rangers, and meleers? Answer that.

 

 

 

No matter what you say, you cannot deny what you see in the game: Hordes of meleers (and for a good reason [ie, mage = useless in combat]).

 

 

 

 

 

Precisely. If everyone here doesn't believe a word of what I say about the troubles mages have in PvP, then at least to a look in a PvP world and tell me how many mages/rangers/and meleers there are. It's evident: If magic was more powerful AND more practical, more people would be using it. At the moment, it's lacking in both power and practicality, and the numbers you see reflected in PvP worlds speak for themselves.

 

 

 

Look, rangers suffer a penalty to their ranged attack bonus by wearing plate armor. Mages suffer a penalty by wearing either dragonhide or plate armor. Melee doesn't suffer from wearing dragonhide armor. This is a simple inconsistency that needs to be righted.

[pureprayer]

Explain this to me:

 

 

 

If mage is:

 

 

 

1) NOT ridiculously overpriced

 

2) NOT underpowered

 

 

 

Why is it that:

 

 

 

1) Mages can only kill NOOBS in 1v1 Watch vids of the old mage bank pking. 90% of them used magic.

 

2) The majority of players are meleers Its cheaper.

 

3) Mages are penalized in melee armor, while meleers can wear dhide without reductions? People who bring up this point are idiots. At max mage bonus (140) and praying the 15% magic prayer you can easily hit, at 99 magic, the meleers in dragon hide.

 

 

 

I'll answer that for you. The reason most players are meleers isn't because they're noobs (hard to believe). No, the reason they wear those dragon med helms is because mage is extremely overpriced for its power. If mage was as balanced (or overpowered [Yeah, right], as you say it is), then why is there not a balance in players that are mages, rangers, and meleers? Answer that.

 

 

 

No matter what you say, you cannot deny what you see in the game: Hordes of meleers (and for a good reason [ie, mage = useless in combat]).

[Imamonkey]

I personally chose melee because I am more of a hack and slash type player. Nothing to do with which is dominant. I will choose hack and slash over everything else in any game I play. Always have, always will. Maybe you just aren't a true mage type player. Maybe you are clotheset hack and slasher and don't know it.

 

 

 

From my experience in this game I fear mages over any other combat style. So I think you are just wanting to fix what ain't broke in hoping said attempt would make dominant without a doubt over other styles.

 

 

 

And you keep bring up meleers having to use range equipment or this or that. Exactly, they are having to adapt and use equipment not intended for them. I suggest you adapt or continue to suck at maging.

[Veritas94]

1) Watch vids of the old mage bank pking. 90% of them used magic.

 

 

 

 

Yes, 90% of them used magic as a support skill in order to help their main melee/ranged based attacks (I.e. To hold their opponents in place). I don't see magic as a support skill, but one that is just as powerful when it stands alone.

 

 

 

 

2) The majority of players are meleers Its cheaper.

 

 

Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Let's not even get into the margins of how much cheaper it is. My suggestion is to implement game mechanics which make magic cheaper. If you're interested to know them, I can tell you. It's also less powerful, further decreasing its appeal.

 

 

 

People who bring up this point are idiots. At max mage bonus (140) and praying the 15% magic prayer you can easily hit, at 99 magic, the meleers in dragon hide.

 

 

 

I'm an idiot? I beg to differ. A max mage bonus (140) WILL splash quite often against an opponents who also have 99 def & magic, is magic praying, wearing d'hide, freezing you with some zamorak godsword which can hit absurdly hard and quickly, etc.

[Veritas94]

I personally chose melee because I am more of a hack and slash type player. Nothing to do with which is dominant. I will choose hack and slash over everything else in any game I play. Always have, always will. Maybe you just aren't a true mage type player. Maybe you are clotheset hack and slasher and don't know it.

 

 

 

From my experience in this game I fear mages over any other combat style. So I think you are just wanting to fix what ain't broke in hoping said attempt would make dominant without a doubt over other styles.

 

 

 

And you keep bring up meleers having to use range equipment or this or that. Exactly, they are having to adapt and use equipment not intended for them. I suggest you adapt or continue to suck at maging.

 

 

 

I'm not a true mage player? I have had YEARS of experience playing mages not only in this game, but in various other games as well, and I know exactly what kind of faults they experience when melee can get in close to them. How dare you?

 

 

 

Secondly, I AM trying to fix what IS broken. I've explained why several times, and if you want to sit there parroting why I'm wrong without substantiating your claims, then I have nothing to say to you.

 

 

 

Yes, I would adapt while being a mage, but apparently I can't wear the only armor good against melee (Plate armor) without suffering penalties to my magic bonuses, and meleers don't have to suffer penalties to their melee attack bonuses while wearing dragonhide. No, this isn't right and I'm advocating for it to be fixed. I'm trying to help balance a clearly imbalanced triangle.

 

 

 

P.S. I'm not an advocate of the Zuriel spells slowing ranged attacks. I don't want to make magic overpowered against ranged, just against melee.

[pureprayer]

1) Watch vids of the old mage bank pking. 90% of them used magic.

 

 

 

 

Yes, 90% of them used magic as a support skill in order to help their main melee/ranged based attacks (I.e. To hold their opponents in place). I don't see magic as a support skill, but one that is just as powerful when it stands alone.

 

No the majority of them used magic with melee to back them up to get a few quick hits in so they do not know what to protect/wear.

 

2) The majority of players are meleers Its cheaper.

 

Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Let's not even get into the margins of how much cheaper it is. My suggestion is to implement game mechanics which make magic cheaper. If you're interested to know them, I can tell you. It's also less powerful, further decreasing its appeal.

 

Yes, thank you for saying that. You and the other person asked why many players were melee type players. My answer was that it is cheaper. Your wonderful godly suggestion hasn't been implemented yet so lets stick with the fact that it is cheaper.

 

People who bring up this point are idiots. At max mage bonus (140) and praying the 15% magic prayer you can easily hit, at 99 magic, the meleers in dragon hide.I'm an idiot? I beg to differ. A max mage bonus (140) WILL splash quite often against an opponents who also have 99 def & magic, is magic praying, wearing d'hide, freezing you with some zamorak godsword which can hit absurdly hard and quickly, etc.

 

Players Smart players do not only wear dragonhide, magic pray, and have 99 defense and magic. They have a backup system for when the mage pulls out a dds (or d claws) and a whip. Mages now dont mage with staffs, they use a weapon and unleash a few melee hits to get players to pray melee/wear more melee prone armour. Then when the meleer swaps to melee prayer or melee armour the mage casts a few barrages on them to weaken them.

 

 

 

PS: Zuriels spells lowers melee attacks speed also.

[Obtaurian]

It seems like the entire argument going on here is based on the fact that you wont accept armor as relating to a combat class. Ydrasil posted a very good reason why it is class related on the previous page. I noticed that you did not respond to that point, nor did you respond to the fact that mages have HIGHER slash defense than rangers! Mages use melee weapons as support because unlike the other combat classes, they don't have to be wielding their class specific weapon to do damage. Their robes give them a huge boost, and as pureprayer said, they hit you a couple times with melee to force you to drop your mage defense.

[Sir_Kurity]

FAIL!

 

 

 

Yea, using diffrent armor is hybriding, as is using a different weapon.

 

 

 

Hybrids win, and magic is invaluable for good hybriding.

[pureprayer]

FAIL!

 

 

 

Yea, using diffrent armor is hybriding, as is using a different weapon.

 

 

 

Hybrids win, and magic is invaluable for good hybriding.

 

Magic is perfect for hybriding as I said in my earlier post that you just ignored and put it off as nothing special.

[Obtaurian]

FAIL!

 

 

 

Yea, using diffrent armor is hybriding, as is using a different weapon.

 

 

 

Hybrids win, and magic is invaluable for good hybriding.

 

Magic is perfect for hybriding as I said in my earlier post that you just ignored and put it off as nothing special.

 

 

 

Wrong guy. :? He said magic is in invaluable for hybriding, which means it's practically necessary.

[pureprayer]

FAIL!

 

 

 

Yea, using diffrent armor is hybriding, as is using a different weapon.

 

 

 

Hybrids win, and magic is invaluable for good hybriding.

 

Magic is perfect for hybriding as I said in my earlier post that you just ignored and put it off as nothing special.

 

 

 

Wrong guy. :? He said magic is in invaluable for hybriding, which means it's practically necessary.

 

Misread that sorry.

[Veritas94]

 

Players Smart players do not only wear dragonhide, magic pray, and have 99 defense and magic. They have a backup system for when the mage pulls out a dds (or d claws) and a whip. Mages now dont mage with staffs, they use a weapon and unleash a few melee hits to get players to pray melee/wear more melee prone armour. Then when the meleer swaps to melee prayer or melee armour the mage casts a few barrages on them to weaken them.

 

 

 

PS: Zuriels spells lowers melee attacks speed also.

 

 

 

You're confirming what I'm said earlier. You said mages now use a weapon and unleash a few melee hits to get them to switch armors/prayers and expose their weak spots in doing so. Great strat, I admit. But why does a meleer not have to do this? He can just keep right on using melee no matter what the situation is.

 

• [*:237hc1gn]A meleer does not necessarily need to hybrid to succeed. [*:237hc1gn]A ranger does not necessarily need to hybrid to succeed. [*:237hc1gn]A mager will need to hybrid to succeed because his attacks are inadequate. Although I still don't agree with the concept of a hybriding mage because the thing that's hybriding is not a mage, but a meleer/ranger hybriding by using magic every once in a while.

 

 

 

Also, the staff of Zuriel is discounted from the scenario because it's expensive, rare, and impractical. Dragonhide armor is very practical.

 

 

 

THE "TOO LONG, DIDN'T READ" VERSION: Dragonhide armor needs to subtract from melee attack bonuses. This would be consistent, and it would also be fair.