My Quincunx

[Gpguy]

Hello. Im Gpguy, one of your Runescaping Compatriots. Some of you may have seen me around Gielinor, or around these forums. I have changed in more ways than one throughout the years, and my Runescape character shows that. But as I have changed, I have also seen Runescape itself change, and the management as well.

 

 

 

Neither a Jagex Loyalist, nor a radical revolutionary, I have taken a very objective view on the changes Runescape has undergone. When RS2 came, doomsday Predictors ran amok, and I had faith in the new Runescape, as I felt it an improvement. I have always liked progress, yet I have also liked maintaining the status quo, two things which are generally mutually exclusive. This conflict came to a climax in the updates of late 2007/early 2008.

 

 

 

Throughout the years, I came to expect the constant whine of those who tend to be invariably dissatisfied, and even the least articulate among them have opinions which are to be valued no less than mine or yours. Among the perpetually querulous, I have seen a high rate of transiency from MMOs, and among the veterans at this game, I have seen a general gratification in their achievements.

 

 

 

In 2007, Jagex made a choice that they felt was for the well being of the game. They removed all ability to transfer items between characters, including Player killing and staking. I believed in Jagexs reasoning, and making a reserved leap of faith, I trusted them to make the right decision and helped quell the fears of the doomsday prophets. To this day, I do not know whether I took the right path, I simply know that it was the road less traveled in that day.

 

 

 

Since that time, Jagex has done many more good things, but overall, I feel that in some unimaginable way, this game has gone down the drain for me. Lets face it; Runescape is basically one big chore. I have been able to narrow down the problems to these five essential faults: Precedents, skills, time, money, and interpersonal interaction.

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Precedents~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

Imagine if the Supreme Court ruled that it was okay for me to steal a nickel from someone. One may think of being indifferent to the court case itself, as it involves simply one nickel. But one cannot be indifferent to the precedent that it sets, which is, that I can steal money without punishment. Tomorrow, it may be millions of dollars, and the precedent was that if I could do it with a nickel, the same principle applies.

 

 

 

A similar precedent was set earlier this year. Many pures abused a bug with the evil trees, which allowed them to get Saving Awowogei done without obtaining the defence experience from Daero. Jagex not only condoned this practice, but also said that Daero will not force defence xp on players going live next update. Tomorrow, if a bug allows people to craft double natures with 50 runecrafting, Jagex should not make the requirement on crafting double nats 50 in the next update, as is the precedent, they should punish all of those who do. Notice that the issue is not that Pures are allowed to complete Saving Awowogei without getting defense exp, the issue is that Bug abusers are getting unfair advantages, and Jagex is not punishing this.

 

 

 

This should ideally result in the following: Jagexs rules will be set in stone, and their judgments will have continuity.

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Skills~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

I grind my skills to 99 and then never use them again. What is wrong with the previous statement? On Runescape, nothing! That is absolutely correct. All you 99 cookers and fletchers can attest to that fact, right? (Not to mention herblorists, crafters, firemakers, smiths, and agile peoples). Now, why do we do this? Are we all loons or is there some actual thought behind spending hundreds of hours getting CTS to make a number go up?

 

Heres a hint, it has to do with the fact that we want to achieve superiority.

 

 

 

In hindsight, that wasnt exactly an ambiguous hint but it leads me to my next point. How many of us enjoy fighting each other in Fist of Guthix, PvP worlds, or Stealing Creation? Many of us do. How many of us enjoy fighting boss monsters? Again, many of us do. How many of us enjoy clicking on millions of rock crabs? *Crickets chirping* Well, guess which one we spend most of our time doing? Yeah, kind of counter-intuitive, isnt it? We should be able to obtain the majority of our experience from things we enjoy. I see no reason why the game would be worse off if one could obtain equal experience from clicking at rock crabs and fighting General Graardor.

 

 

 

The removal of the unnecessary repetitive clicking, which was unhealthy, from training prayer at the gilded altar was a very good choice. I would also like to see a Bury-X. This is a good example of change, since that element of prayer, which was annoying at best, and permanently damaging to your hand at worst, was one of those things which should be replaced. Firemaking also should not be something in which you are forced to put up with an extremely irritating aspect just to level. Make Evil trees more complex, where you must burn through the first layers of the tree until you get to the bark, which you can chop only when the tree is alight from all sides. Make Firemakers and Woodcutters and Farmers work together in this mini-game to take down the evil tree! 60k firemaking/woodcutting exp should be obtainable from each Elder evil tree. This is the way to have fun training, not clicking 144,500 times on a tinderbox, and 144,500 times on a willow log. All skills should be trainable to 99 quite enjoyably through distractions and diversions and mini-games.

 

 

 

This should ideally result in the following: Runescape will be more like a game and less like a chore. Many skillers will forget that their levels are even going up.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Time~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

Time is something that Runescape requires a lot of. Runescape has thousands of hours of gameplay. How you choose to spend those hours is your choice. However, The game seems to disproportionately favor those who have more. Quests, skills, etc. give access to a huge amount of content. Dare I say that the leap between amount of content between F2P and P2P is about the same as a level 3 P2P and a level 138 P2P with a quest cape? Naturally, games will tend to favor those who spend more time playing than those who dont have as much free time, but all a level 3 has to look forward to in Runescape is mindless grinding so that he can actually do something. Instead of making so much mid-level content, make some high-level content, some mid-level content, and some level-free content.

 

 

 

Also, stop showing levels after everybody's name. The only places this would be needed are PvP worlds. Levels are such an inaccurate representation of who people are. If someone wants to know my levels, they can look me up. Little silver crowns and little (level-138)s should not be the way of determining who is more accomplished. If a level 138 is worth his salt, we should be able to tell that he is a high level without the game having to inform us.

 

 

 

This should ideally result in the following: Everyone can enjoy Runescape, although higher level players will enjoy it more, level 3s won't be left out. The word noob will be used less toward low combat levels, and more towards actually ignorant people.

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Money~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

What can you do without money? Do chores to earn some? Thats about it on Runescape. Sure, Stealing Creation may be nice for a bit, but to get to most of the levels you need to dominate, you need money. Before item lending, people with party hats were respected because they were rich. The poor feel inferior, and spend time doing arduous tasks so that they can make money. People used to trade real-life money for Runescape money. Is this ridiculous? Perhaps, and one can call them pathetic and desperate, but perhaps they enjoy using that money, but dont enjoy doing chores to earn it. This is definitely an understandable point of view, since Runescape is, after all, a game.

 

 

 

Now, I am not condoning any form of obtaining money in an unfair way, but I can simply see, from a hedonistic point of view, what these people are thinking. I am thinking of a time in the distant past, where people felt a euphoria from earning those 5000 gp for their mithril 2-hander through various methods, but with the stronghold of security tossing that kind of money in the hands of anyone who can look up a guide, that euphoria has been murdered. Now, making 5000 gp is no longer enough to make even a toddler happy, and people must toil for hours to keep up with the other players who have hundreds of thousands.

 

 

 

I dont see any bad coming out of turning Ice barrage into less of an elitist spell. I dont think that any harm could come out of being able to cast ten hours worth of Ice Barrage with only one hour worth of slogging for money. The spirit shields released by Jagex are products of profound stupidity, as they give a massive leap over an affordable shield, yet are not accessible to really anyone. The best armors, weapons, hatchets, and axes should require high levels to use, not high amounts of money. The inferno adze should give a large boost over a rune pickaxe and dragon hatchet, yet it gives none. When the Dragon pickaxe is released, it will probably climb to some 5 million in price, and settle a bit lower. It will also likely be a rare drop from some demon, dragon, or god avatar. I dont understand why they always do this; it overpowers combat, as skillers must depend on fighters to obtain the tools for them, while fighters only depend on themselves to get the best armors, rather than smiths.

 

 

 

Money is revered far too much. Many of those skills which I listed as never train them again after 99, are in that list simply because they are trained at a loss. I understand the concept of paying for speedy experience. This means that they pay money so that they can spend less time grinding that skill. But if all goes as planned, people will not have incentive to cut down on training time. If money was a less integral part of Runescape, then RWT would not be a problem, as people would not need obscene amounts of money to feel superior.

 

 

 

This should ideally result in the following: Destitute people can be on nearly equal grounds with the aristocrats, and people have less incentive to cheat.

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Interpersonal Interaction~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

Much of the enjoyment of Runescape comes from a feeling of superiority. This means that people feel good when they display their dominance over people. When someones combat looks green to you, you expect him or her to show you some respect, no matter how crude and uncouth you may be, and no matter how cultured they may be. Put downs like the ubiquitous noob are meant only to show dominance. Where this ties in is that those with less time to play will generally have lower skills and less money, and will end up feeling inferior. Interpersonal interaction is actually lessened in Runescape due to this, as people continually grind skills to feel better than others.

 

 

 

This need to demonstrate supremacy cannot be allayed, and one should not try to diminish it, as it is instinctive. But what can be done is to encourage more working co-operatively while concurrently trying to show dominance. When people build up their characters grinding alone, they expect a feeling of gratification for their efforts. When they build their characters through competition with others, the gratification lies in the act. They will be less apt to berate the lower leveled, as their fulfillment will be drawn from training skills, and not from being able to put others down as a result of training those skills. The satisfaction will not be in sadism, but in mutualism.

 

 

 

If one enjoys training skills in solitude, he should not be restricted from doing so. My view is simply that there should be options which are not repetitive, and the only way to stop repetitive is through player interaction and competition.

 

 

 

Players will always be making new friends and satisfying their social needs, rather than laboring in a forsaken corner of Runescape so that they can draw enjoyment by demeaning other players. Because after all, that just starts the chain all over again. The person he demeans will go and grind in the same forsaken place, thus starting the cycle all over again

 

 

 

This should ideally result in the following: more positive relations in Runescape, with less of the common make yourself feel good by putting others down that permeates Runescape.

[la la la]

I completely disagree with your argument on precedents. By not fixing it, only the bug abusers are given the advantage of having completed the miniquest, but by allowing everyone to complete it, the bug abusers gained no advantage.

 

 

 

It also seemed at points that you were digging through a thesaurus to try to sound refined and intelligent. That's not completely necessary, although using big words does get the flamers out of these threads.

 

 

 

Read it all by the way. Quincunx is actually an astrological or botanical term, and the way you used it is subject to argument. That is, unless there is a definition that dictionary.com isn't showing me. Are you Qeltar by any chance?

[sees_all1]

long read, but worth it.

 

This probably should have been submitted as a Tip-It-Times article.

 

I'm not sure if this was meant to spark a debate, or a general discussion over the points listed.

 

 

 

Lets see, I'd like to go over this on a point by point basis, but that would take almost as long as it seems like it took you to write this.

 

So, rather than do that, I'll pick a generic idea out of each section and comment on it, and you can tell me if I understood what you were trying to convey, and if my opinion on it makes sense.

 

 

 

Here I go.

 

On Precedents:

 

I believe the punishment of breaking a rule should fit the severity of the abuse.

 

IE - anyone who abused the µ bug merits at the very least a 3 day mute. Anyone who used the µ bug in a PVP or PVM situation to the detriment of other players deserves, at the very least, a 10 day ban.

 

Players who discovered the bug, repeated it several times, promptly reported it, then kept their mouth shut should not be banned - as this is the prescribed method for reporting bugs.

 

Players that spread the knowledge of the bug to others should be banned, because it allowed others to abuse the bug.

 

 

 

Another situation - the Bounty Hunter skull bug. Players that abused this bug (i.e. did it, without reporting it, and/or spread the knowledge to others) should receive at most 1-2 blackmarks (a slap on the wrist), because this didn't affect anyone else, i.e. the abuse was not severe.

 

In this manner, Jagex can be fair towards all players in any given situation, while still maintaining the integrity of the game, and the rules.

 

 

 

 

 

On skills:

 

One thing that I think which summed everything up was the statement:

 

"We should be able to obtain the majority of our experience from things we enjoy."

 

I believe Jagex is heading in this direction, believe it or not. I'll give two good examples:

 

I enjoy using mage in combat, but magic is expensive, and pretty much worthless in F2P. I can play FoG, and still retain that enjoyment at literally no cost to me.

 

 

 

Another example:

 

I hate runecrafting. I detest it. It is one of the worst skills in the game, especially for F2P. In my humble opinion, getting 70 runecrafting is harder than getting 99 cooking.

 

And then GOP came out. I absolutely love GOP. I played GOP so much that my Runecrafting level went from 50 to 70 since its been released. I hardly notice the experience in Runecrafting I get when I play GOP.

 

 

 

As far as combat goes - the only solution to making combat experience easier is to make it cheaper overall. This would alleviate the problem of having to grind skills to pay for PKing, or to play safe combat minigames instead of risking armour. Clan wars is a good example of how this gets done.

 

 

 

 

 

Time:

 

Most of this I can't comment on, as I'm strictly F2P.

 

however the

 

"Also, stop showing levels after everybody's name. The only places this would be needed are PvP worlds."

 

is an interesting point of view, and I'm not sure if I would agree or disagree.

 

There are many level 3s that have a higher total level than level 60's and 70's - because these level 3s are skillers. For this reason, I do not automatically discredit someone on their combat level. I feel that no matter what, immaturity will always happen, and removing the combat level after the name is no way to solve the problem of immaturity.

 

 

 

 

 

Money:

 

Expensive items give satisfaction to people that grind skills to get money. Removing the necessity of money, and removing the necessity of skills would make Runescape just one giant minigame, instead of the complex beast it is today. It would cheapen the value and time of all the effort put into by current and past players, and would make the game boring.

 

 

 

 

 

Interpersonal Relations:

 

"This should ideally result in the following: more positive relations in Runescape, with less of the common make yourself feel good by putting others down that permeates Runescape.""

 

All I could think of... "I'd like to teach the world to sing..."

 

Trust me, this will never happen, because you can't teach people to be mature.

[baalboy5]

Ok read, but doesn't say more then whats already stated

[Pinkbullet3]

[hide=Off-topic.]I'm sorry for not being able to contribute to this thread (I have to go in about 3 minutes), but thanks for teaching me a new word from your thread title. :thumbup:[/hide]

[Kenshinjapan]

The author makes some large assumptions such as that everyone hates training rc. While most don't like the skill, I enjoy it very much and shouldn't be slapped into some category you label. Also, who are you to say that it is wrong for people to play for hundreds of hours just to obtain a 99 that they will never use? Some only like the accomplishment of maxing a skill or competing with their peers. Incase you haven't noticed, mmo's are built around player competition and without that, then the game would be dull and boring. The same applies to real life shopping in a way. If people honestly didn't care about what other thought about their clothing, then no one would be spending $500 on a pair of jeans.

[obfuscator]

Wall of text. I read a bit, will finish tomorrow. Would make a good times article for sure :P

[Gpguy]

I completely disagree with your argument on precedents. By not fixing it, only the bug abusers are given the advantage of having completed the miniquest, but by allowing everyone to complete it, the bug abusers gained no advantage.

 

 

 

It also seemed at points that you were digging through a thesaurus to try to sound refined and intelligent. That's not completely necessary, although using big words does get the flamers out of these threads.

 

 

 

Read it all by the way. Quincunx is actually an astrological or botanical term, and the way you used it is subject to argument. That is, unless there is a definition that dictionary.com isn't showing me. Are you Qeltar by any chance?

 

 

 

 

 

Quincunx means Five Points. It represents my title very accurately.

 

 

 

So, on to precedents. You're saying that Jagex Equalizes everyone by allowing the bug to continue. But bug abuse is against the rules. So what should be happening is that the bug abusers should be banned. The parallel is there with a bug which allows people with 50 RC to craft double natures. Jagex does not equalize everyone by allowing everyone to craft double nats at 50 rc.

 

 

 

If Jagex tomorrow makes an update which lowers the requirement to craft double natures to 50, I would complain, but not about the same thing. The issue there would not be bug abuse. But if someone abuses a bug, and Jagex takes the equalization path to take the advantage from the bug abusers, the precedent is quite ominous.

 

 

 

I did not look through a thesaurus to sound refined and intelligent, I simply hate repetition. I realize that the whole literary motif element and repetition for emphasis would play into it if I repeated my main point, but I do hate repeating words. Coupled with the fact that I am a 16 year old boy studying hardcore for my SAT's(because my parents decided 2110 wasn't enough), A plethora of vernacular is utilized in my writing.

 

 

 

I am not Qeltar... I am simply a veteran runescape player voicing my opinion and backing it up with logic.

 

 

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

long read, but worth it.

 

This probably should have been submitted as a Tip-It-Times article.

 

I'm not sure if this was meant to spark a debate, or a general discussion over the points listed.

 

 

 

Lets see, I'd like to go over this on a point by point basis, but that would take almost as long as it seems like it took you to write this.

 

So, rather than do that, I'll pick a generic idea out of each section and comment on it, and you can tell me if I understood what you were trying to convey, and if my opinion on it makes sense.

 

 

 

Here I go.

 

On Precedents:

 

I believe the punishment of breaking a rule should fit the severity of the abuse.

 

IE - anyone who abused the µ bug merits at the very least a 3 day mute. Anyone who used the µ bug in a PVP or PVM situation to the detriment of other players deserves, at the very least, a 10 day ban.

 

Players who discovered the bug, repeated it several times, promptly reported it, then kept their mouth shut should not be banned - as this is the prescribed method for reporting bugs.

 

Players that spread the knowledge of the bug to others should be banned, because it allowed others to abuse the bug.

 

 

 

Another situation - the Bounty Hunter skull bug. Players that abused this bug (i.e. did it, without reporting it, and/or spread the knowledge to others) should receive at most 1-2 blackmarks (a slap on the wrist), because this didn't affect anyone else, i.e. the abuse was not severe.

 

In this manner, Jagex can be fair towards all players in any given situation, while still maintaining the integrity of the game, and the rules.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your opinion on bug abuse is very valid. The proper punishment for the ape atoll bug I feel should have been simply a choice between 20k or 35k defense experience. That is not really even official punishment, since everyone has to take it before completing that quest. However, that was not what I was attempting to convey through this section. The precedent of giving zero punishment to Bug abusers is unacceptable.

 

 

 

On skills:

 

One thing that I think which summed everything up was the statement:

 

"We should be able to obtain the majority of our experience from things we enjoy."

 

I believe Jagex is heading in this direction, believe it or not. I'll give two good examples:

 

I enjoy using mage in combat, but magic is expensive, and pretty much worthless in F2P. I can play FoG, and still retain that enjoyment at literally no cost to me.

 

 

 

Another example:

 

I hate runecrafting. I detest it. It is one of the worst skills in the game, especially for F2P. In my humble opinion, getting 70 runecrafting is harder than getting 99 cooking.

 

And then GOP came out. I absolutely love GOP. I played GOP so much that my Runecrafting level went from 50 to 70 since its been released. I hardly notice the experience in Runecrafting I get when I play GOP.

 

 

 

As far as combat goes - the only solution to making combat experience easier is to make it cheaper overall. This would alleviate the problem of having to grind skills to pay for PKing, or to play safe combat minigames instead of risking armour. Clan wars is a good example of how this gets done.

 

 

 

FoG is one place. Magic should not be too much more expensive than the other two ends of the combat triangle ANYWHERE. Especially when it is the weakest end of the triangle. That's a different story though...

 

 

 

And you make a good point about GOP. Though I am saying that GOP like minigames/D&D should be the primary way of getting exp, not something which gives slow rates compared to conventional grinding methods of training RC.

 

 

 

Time:

 

Most of this I can't comment on, as I'm strictly F2P.

 

however the

 

"Also, stop showing levels after everybody's name. The only places this would be needed are PvP worlds."

 

is an interesting point of view, and I'm not sure if I would agree or disagree.

 

There are many level 3s that have a higher total level than level 60's and 70's - because these level 3s are skillers. For this reason, I do not automatically discredit someone on their combat level. I feel that no matter what, immaturity will always happen, and removing the combat level after the name is no way to solve the problem of immaturity.

 

 

 

 

 

You may not judge someone based on their combat level, but most people do. Not showing the combat level would alter it to where everyone would judge people solely based on their actions and words. A level 20 who is very mature will get called noob more often than a uncivilized level 138. In fact, it will often be the 138 who will be calling the level 20 noob. Realistically, the correlation between civility and combat level, if positive would have a very low Coefficient of determination. So the constant cries of "noob" would be directed towards those who behave like noobs, rather than those whom the game states are "newbs"

 

 

 

Money:

 

Expensive items give satisfaction to people that grind skills to get money. Removing the necessity of money, and removing the necessity of skills would make Runescape just one giant minigame, instead of the complex beast it is today. It would cheapen the value and time of all the effort put into by current and past players, and would make the game boring.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not saying to remove the satisfaction people get from owning a rare partyhat. I am simply saying to remove money from being necessary to succeed. It makes this game too much like a job. Removing the need for skills is not what I'm saying. What I am saying is to give some content for EVERY skill group and EVERY socioeconomic class. People should have every right to get satisfaction from grinding skills to get money, but considering that many skills cost a lot of money to train effectively, some people who dislike grinding for money are forced to do it. This is very bad, and obtaining money should not be something you HAVE to do. Although it can be a choice. It would be great if people could do more of the things they enjoy and less of the things they dislike.

 

 

 

Interpersonal Relations:

 

"This should ideally result in the following: more positive relations in Runescape, with less of the common make yourself feel good by putting others down that permeates Runescape.""

 

All I could think of... "I'd like to teach the world to sing..."

 

Trust me, this will never happen, because you can't teach people to be mature.

 

 

 

 

 

Team-building activities that raise morale in office workers has been shown to increase cheerfulness, and increase productivity. Since Runescape is like a job already, a lot of changes can happen when people are not forced to work/grind, and can instead spend ALL of their time doing fun team-building activities. I think that the differences can be huge. You are too cynical of people. People teach themselves to be mature based on their life experiences.

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

The author makes some large assumptions such as that everyone hates training rc. While most don't like the skill, I enjoy it very much and shouldn't be slapped into some category you label. Also, who are you to say that it is wrong for people to play for hundreds of hours just to obtain a 99 that they will never use? Some only like the accomplishment of maxing a skill or competing with their peers. Incase you haven't noticed, mmo's are built around player competition and without that, then the game would be dull and boring. The same applies to real life shopping in a way. If people honestly didn't care about what other thought about their clothing, then no one would be spending $500 on a pair of jeans.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you like training RC, then nothing will change for you. You can continue spending time, and if you enjoy it, who am I to contradict you? I am not saying that it is wrong to spend hundreds of hours doing something you detest so you can have a cape which allows you to feel like you're better than everyone else, am I? I'm simply saying that the skills should have some fun usage, so that past 99, people will still have a reason to use them. for FUN. Yes, MMO's are built around competition. And this is the part where I will reason that you did not get to the last part of my thread. Player competition should be positive, and friendly. Grinding to get a cape, then calling those who don't have it "noob" to feel good about yourself, is not the competition that the ideal MMO's are built upon. The competition you speak of breeds hostility(I can clearly see this in you), and a feeling that one is either better than or less than another. Spending $500 on a pair of jeans is not something sensible working people do. If you think that spending 500 hours doing something you hate makes sensible people respect you, I hate to inform you that you may be mildly mistaken.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Quincunx is actually an astrological or botanical term, and the way you used it is subject to argument. That is, unless there is a definition that dictionary.com isn't showing me.

 

That would be the definition in which quincunx is defined as an arrangement of five objects within a square, like the 5 on a side of a die.

 

 

 

Moving on...

 

 

 

Precedents

 

-----------

 

 

 

Do you recall a bug in which a player could possess two fire capes at once? To preform that was arduous enough (it involved graves), but if you were able to do it in a timely fashion, you would own two fire capes. Know what Jagex did? They made that legal, and I don't think anyone was punished.

 

 

 

It's not about whether or not a bug is abused, it's about if the bug in and of itself has the potential to cause widespread damage to the game, or give others unfair advantages. These pures are rejecting gains of experience for their account; although this doesn't make what they (or the fire cape bug) correct, it does mean that Jagex will look at these bugs in a much different light, as opposed to the major POH bug or Penguins or even this PvP bug.

 

 

 

Perhaps Jagex should punish those who abused the bug, but honestly, what's the harm in rejecting experience?

 

 

 

Skills

 

-----

 

 

 

There's not much that can be said positive about skilling. Yes, it's a grind. Yes, it feels like a chore. But, the only real way to get tons of experience is to do tens of thousands of things over and over again. That hasn't changed since the beginning, although I'll admit, if I tried smelting 25K Iron ores back in Classic, I'd have gone crazy by now. (Just so you know, I'm in the process of smelting nearly around 70K iron.)

 

 

 

The easiest way to make the chore feel...less like a chore is to add a little spin to it. I idle in various clan chats and jump into discussions here and there.

 

 

 

I reject the notion that a skill should be trained through any side diversion. Know why? Eventually that side diversion will become a chore, too.

 

 

 

Time

 

-----

 

 

 

All MMOGs, games, and anything with as much content as RS has takes time. End of discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

Money

 

------

 

 

 

This game revolves around money, and any major structural changes to how that's run would cause mass catastrophe. Jagex is not object-dependent like some other games like Maple Story, but that doesn't mean that RWT wouldn't have occurred - it's just people would've found value in some other object.

 

 

 

I disagree when you rail against the Spirit Shields - of all items in RS, they require extremely high skills to make or obtain. Even if you don't have money, you can still challenge the Corporeal Beast (which you even think is fun).

 

 

 

Lastly, I fundamentally disagree when you say this:

 

 

 

...skillers must depend on fighters to obtain the tools for them, while fighters only depend on themselves to get the best armors, rather than smiths.

 

 

 

Skillers don't need fighters to get Rune tools. All they need is a rune bar or two and the level to make it. The best equipment, maybe (although there are only TWO things that a skiller would rely on a fighter for anyway) - but not everything. Definitely not.

 

 

 

Perhaps there's some truth when you say that fighters only need depend on themselves, but they don't get all of their equipment from monster drops. They had to get the money to buy armor from somewhere.

 

 

 

Lastly, giving people a fair ground to play on (in terms of wealth) does not reduce the incentive to cheat, but it does reduce the incentive to play.

 

 

 

Interpersonal Interaction

 

------------------------

 

 

 

Didn't you say most of what you're trying to hammer home here in Skills? Besides, when I level my skills, I sure as hell don't expect some random dude off the street to say, 'Hey, you're Makoto D! You got like 99 Smithing! Awesome, man!'; I'd actually be a little freaked out. I think I outlined a way to make the repetitiveness a little less like it's repetitive by wandering around other clan chats, or IRC, or some other forums; it's not really so bad if you have something else to do. Heck, if I really got in the groove with my smelting, I probably could be playing Chess or something else on Funorb.

 

 

 

 

 

---

 

 

 

I don't share your view that the game is tanking or taking a dive of any kind. It's just up to us now to have fun with what we have. If we rely on Jagex to do that for us, then we're playing for the wrong reasons.

[Kenshinjapan]

Did you ever consider that your view might have been a tad off due to the fact that you were only 11-12 when you started playing?

[Gpguy]

Did you ever consider that your view might have been a tad off due to the fact that you were only 11-12 when you started playing?

 

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

No.

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

It's not about whether or not a bug is abused,

 

 

 

Perhaps Jagex should punish those who abused the bug, but honestly, what's the harm in rejecting experience?

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, it IS about whether a bug is abused. That's what a precedent is.

 

 

 

The harm is in abusing a bug. I would have no problem is Jagex outright stated that "from tomorrow, you won't need to claim xp from Daero to get to Ape Atoll". They didn't do that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I reject the notion that a skill should be trained through any side diversion. Know why? Eventually that side diversion will become a chore, too.

 

 

 

 

 

Not if it involves community, and doesn't involve repetitiveness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All MMOGs, games, and anything with as much content as RS has takes time. End of discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You didn't read my section on time. The game disproportionately favors those who have more time with MORE CONTENT while they pay the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jagex is not object-dependent like some other games like Maple Story, but that doesn't mean that RWT wouldn't have occurred - it's just people would've found value in some other object.

 

 

 

I disagree when you rail against the Spirit Shields - of all items in RS, they require extremely high skills to make or obtain. Even if you don't have money, you can still challenge the Corporeal Beast (which you even think is fun).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, people would find value in a different object. Like skills. Account trading would go on like it does today, but that is difficult to stop. At least Money would not be RWT'd.

 

 

 

And fighting the Corporeal beast and hoping for a sigil from lootshare is umm... kind of unrealistic. That's how you might have fun, but not how you will get a sigil unless you're one of those people who wins the lottery weekly.

 

 

 

 

 

skillers must depend on fighters to obtain the tools for them, while fighters only depend on themselves to get the best armors, rather than smiths.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You took this out of context.

 

 

 

Besides, when I level my skills, I sure as hell don't expect some random dude off the street to say, 'Hey, you're Makoto D! You got like 99 Smithing! Awesome, man!'; I'd actually be a little freaked out.

 

 

 

 

 

I think I outlined a way to make the repetitiveness a little less like it's repetitive by wandering around other clan chats, or IRC, or some other forums; it's not really so bad if you have something else to do. Heck, if I really got in the groove with my smelting, I probably could be playing Chess or something else on Funorb.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You would be quite surprised at how many people would love this scenario.

 

 

 

Yes. But I am saying that training smithing should be FUN! not a chore which you can alleviate the burden of a bit by playing chess on funorb or wandering around clan chats.

[mister_moocky]

Please use quote tags.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

To begin with, quote statements help tons. Now, to your responses:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, it IS about whether a bug is abused. That's what a precedent is.

 

 

 

The harm is in abusing a bug. I would have no problem is Jagex outright stated that "from tomorrow, you won't need to claim xp from Daero to get to Ape Atoll". They didn't do that.

 

 

 

 

I do feel that there is a lot to be said when a "bug" becomes "part of a game", but it still doesn't change my view. Sure, Jagex should have enforced the rules, but again, this isn't like a drastically damaging bug that would have ultimately been the economy's undoing. I've also seen dozens of rants about the experience from that part of the quest anyway.

 

 

 

I weigh the extremity of a bug based on who it affected, benefited, or harmed. The mu glitch harmed THOUSANDS, so that's an obvious ban. The penguin glitch affected players that trained hard skills legitimately, so punishments were handed down in concordance with the abuse severity. The Fire cape (and Skill cape) glitch(es) actually harmed the players themselves, and not necessarily anyone else. It doesn't bother me that a player can have an untrimmed version of a cape, or a duplicate copy of the fire cape (as the latter is actually reducing their effective defense, and the former is something that should've existed in the first place).

 

 

 

Again, I am NOT advocating that abusing these bugs was right. I am saying that it does not constitute punishment (if any) on the scale that certain bugs would. If Jagex banned players based on principle instead of weighing every side of the argument, then there'd be players banned for junk trading by now.

 

 

 

 

I reject the notion that a skill should be trained through any side diversion. Know why? Eventually that side diversion will become a chore, too.

 

 

 

 

 

Not if it involves community, and doesn't involve repetitiveness.

 

 

 

 

That's an oxymoron. If training a skill didn't involve repetitiveness, there would be that magical "level-99 lever" in the deep Wilderness that gave everyone what they wanted - lots of experience five minutes ago. Let me tell you, there is nothing in this world (or this game) that does not involve some degree of repetitiveness. There isn't a way to totally eradicate repetition, but there is a way to make it less boring. Believe me when I tell you it already exists to that degree - you just have to look for it.

 

 

 

 

All MMOGs, games, and anything with as much content as RS has takes time. End of discussion.

 

 

 

You didn't read my section on time. The game disproportionately favors those who have more time with MORE CONTENT while they pay the same.

 

 

 

 

What? How is that bad again? You'd better believe that I, with all the time I've invested in this game, had better have an upper hand against someone that just started, or started a year ago. Either I misunderstood your point or you made no sense, and I'm leaning towards the latter.

 

 

 

 

Jagex is not object-dependent like some other games like Maple Story, but that doesn't mean that RWT wouldn't have occurred - it's just people would've found value in some other object.

 

 

 

I disagree when you rail against the Spirit Shields - of all items in RS, they require extremely high skills to make or obtain. Even if you don't have money, you can still challenge the Corporeal Beast (which you even think is fun).

 

 

 

Yes, people would find value in a different object. Like skills. Account trading would go on like it does today, but that is difficult to stop. At least Money would not be RWT'd.

 

 

 

Fallacy. Regardless of the object that's being RWT'd, it doesn't change the fact that it's being RWT'd. There's also no saying whether or not a person would buy an account solely for their items, their skills, or both. It's still RWT in any form.

 

 

 

 

And fighting the Corporeal beast and hoping for a sigil from lootshare is umm... kind of unrealistic. That's how you might have fun, but not how you will get a sigil unless you're one of those people who wins the lottery weekly.

 

 

 

 

It's neither unrealistic nor improbable. It's how we get the shields in the first place. Admittedly there aren't a lot of people that do it (like we've done with the GWD), but that doesn't mean that it's not possible to get a sigil for yourself, or earn the cash to get one through Coinsharing the item (which places it in the GE right away).

 

 

 

 

 

 

You took [skillers must depend on fighters to obtain the tools for them, while fighters only depend on themselves to get the best armors, rather than smiths] out of context.

 

 

 

 

What other context is there to take? You said plain and simple that fighters are self-suppliant, whereas skillers are reliant on fighters themselves. There's only one real case in which that's true (dragon hatchet), and the former is just blatantly false. No one, and I mean NO ONE, drops a whole Godsword, Spirit shield, or Dragon Platebody.

 

 

 

[Aside]

 

 

 

 

Besides, when I level my skills, I sure as hell don't expect some random dude off the street to say, 'Hey, you're Makoto D! You got like 99 Smithing! Awesome, man!'; I'd actually be a little freaked out.

 

 

 

 

 

I think I outlined a way to make the repetitiveness a little less like it's repetitive by wandering around other clan chats, or IRC, or some other forums; it's not really so bad if you have something else to do. Heck, if I really got in the groove with my smelting, I probably could be playing Chess or something else on Funorb.

 

 

 

You would be quite surprised at how many people would love this scenario.

 

 

 

Yes. But I am saying that training smithing should be FUN! not a chore which you can alleviate the burden of a bit by playing chess on funorb or wandering around clan chats.

 

 

 

I'm sure I would be. I'm surprised enough as it is.

 

 

 

Anyway, it's up to you whether or not you make the skill feel like a chore. If you think about it, and I mean really abstractly, everything we do is a chore in this game, it just depends on the spin we put on it. My spin just so happens to be outside of the skill's boundaries, but it's not uncommon - how many times have any of us made cleaning our room a fun chore? Didn't we just put some music on in the background while we did it?

 

 

 

-- By the way, don't comment to this entire post at once. It's getting unwieldy, not in terms of argument, but sheer WALL OF TEXT mode; don't go all TL;DR on me.

[Krazi]

A plethora of vernacular is utilized in my writing.

 

Vernacular? Thats a derby!

 

 

 

Sorry I couldn't resist. (Lets see how many people know where that's from :lol: )

[Gpguy]

to Makoto:

but that doesn't mean that it's not possible to get a sigil for yourself, or earn the cash to get one through Coinsharing the item (which places it in the GE right away).

 

 

 

Even if you had the cash, you can't buy one. So basically, your only option is killing the CB with 15 other high level players, all of who probably have high LSP, and hoping to get one WITHOUT coinshare. That's why it is so out of reach for common players.

 

 

 

Regardless of the object that's being RWT'd, it doesn't change the fact that it's being RWT'd.

 

 

 

Less RWT will happen. People will have be having fun playing, so they won't care too much for the money, whereas right now, RWT is seen as a way to get around doing chores.

 

 

 

What other context is there to take?

 

 

 

The context where "Dragon Pickaxe will probably be dropped by a Boss Monster like Dragon Hatchet" and "Fighters can get the best money, armor, and weapons without needing smiths"

 

 

 

If you think about it, and I mean really abstractly, everything we do is a chore in this game

 

 

 

It shouldn't be that way.

[SanNo1]

Presedents.

 

Jagex does ban lots of players who abuse bugs, but sometimes it can take quite a while, as they have to track the abusers down first, and then make sure they purposely abused it. Also, I dont think the example you listed is really a 'bug', just a side effect that an update had, without real programming errors which could give players a large advantage(like being able to take BoB's to f2p worlds).

 

 

 

Skills

 

Jagex is improving on making mini-games which give good xp rewards, but I feel that the main source of xp is really training the skills (grinding for high-levels) as it is supposed to give some sort of accomplishment. From this perspective, it is logical that a harder way (like rc'ing through the abyss) should give more xp/hr then a minigame (GoP). This is how it works in MMORPG games and communities, if you don't like this and want a game with more variety, there are a lot of other games you can buy.

 

 

 

Time

 

A way of keeping customers for a company like Jagex who produce an MMORPG is to open up new content as people get higher lvls, therefore it makes sense that a lvl 3 doesn't have as much available content as a higher lvl.

 

 

 

Money

 

Money is needed for a lot of things in Rs, and is a scarce product, even in an online game, so it is distributed by the players themselves. Because of this, it takes time to make money, as you have to do something for another player (like getting a monster drop you can sell, or crafting runes with the rc skill) in order to get money. Jagex also can't just decide to lower the price of ice barrages so it is a less elitist spell, because it would have a major impact on the whole magic skill.

 

 

 

Don't really have time to read the interpersonal interaction wholly as this post became a bit to long and i g2g, but i might come back at this. If you mean that the reason skills are trained are to get acknowledged for you acclompishments and don't see the point in this, then I agree with you on that. I personally feel that you shouldn't rely on what strangers think of you, but play with friends and compete with them. ( if this isn't what you mean then just ignore this comment):P

[Bloodstain]

Lol, you can't just apply a legal only term to a video game. There is a huge difference. If a cop let you off with a warning for speeding, should he have to let you off any time you feel like speeding? No, because that would be stupid.

[1wngedangel]

One thing I noticed reading through your original post (I haven't read through all your responses, I'm in class right now and will repost if I find anything to reply to), you advocate that people shouldn't have to grind incessantly to get levels. Which is all fine and good until you talk about money. You want less reliance on money, with players being able to use equipment based on stringent level requirements. But if you can rapidly gain exp, then everyone would be able to use the best items anyway, and there wouldn't be these rare, respectable items in the first place.

 

In short, whether you meant to or not, you want the game to be easier. I think that, if Jagex actually implemented these suggestions, you would find out pretty quickly that these changes are something you don't actually want. The sense of accomplishment from 99ing a skill after countless hours of work, or finally earning that party hat, are what keep a lot of people playing this game. Yes there are people who play for the community or just for fun, but I don't think you'd disagree that you felt happy when you achieved a goal through hard work, whether it be in runescape or real life.

[Skeptical]

Well thought out, even if I do not agree with everything you said. This really would have made an excellent Times article.

 

 

 

I have to say though, if we implemented your suggested changes, the outcry from the "old class" of players would be enormous (perhaps even myself included), so maybe we need a way to balance out the time spend by the older players?

[Gpguy]

In short, whether you meant to or not, you want the game to be easier.

 

 

 

Well, If making something "Enjoyable" makes it "Easier", then yes.

 

 

 

I DEFINITELY don't want a "2376" button, and I myself would argue that since You can't train AFK when you're actively involved with other people, the game would actually require more clicking, it is just that the clicking would not be such a grind, and it would be enjoyable.

 

 

 

I feel that the main source of xp is really training the skills (grinding for high-levels)

 

 

 

Yes. I agree whole-heartedly. I think this should be changed.

 

 

 

A way of keeping customers for a company like Jagex who produce an MMORPG is to open up new content as people get higher lvls, therefore it makes sense that a lvl 3 doesn't have as much available content as a higher lvl.

 

 

 

No, it would make sense that a higher level could enjoy the content more, but it does not make sense that a low level is not given access to it.

 

 

 

Money is needed for a lot of things in Rs, and is a scarce product, even in an online game, so it is distributed by the players themselves.

 

 

 

Because of this, it takes time to make money, as you have to do something for another player (like getting a monster drop you can sell, or crafting runes with the rc skill) in order to get money.

 

 

 

Jagex also can't just decide to lower the price of ice barrages so it is a less elitist spell, because it would have a major impact on the whole magic skill.

 

 

 

1. Correct.

 

 

 

2. You don't HAVE to. You can cut yews, make bowstrings, and alchemy that with natures you crafted yourself. That's a matter of personal preference.

 

 

 

3. Yes. Err... wait, no. It would not have any impact on the magic skill, rather than make it more appealing. It would not at all affect the skill. Period. They are not changing the strength. If they want a stronger spell, they should make a new one. But it shouldn't be inaccessible due to its high price point like Ice barrage, which is fun to use, but you spend more time making money for it than actually using it. Unless you use it in a place where you get free runes. That sucks all the fun out of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so maybe we need a way to balance out the time spend by the older players?

 

 

 

Well, the time won't change. The enjoyment will. And the older players will not complain far too much more than the norm if Jagex gradually makes training skills more enjoyable. Some may complain, and feel that their accomplishments were devalued, but that is not true. Progress happens, and old things become worth less. A computer from 2001 which cost $5,000 would not even be worth $50 for the scrap metal today, but someone who spent the money in 2001 should feel happy, because he got to use it for 8 more years. Similarly, the old players will get to use their skills for that much time longer. And Once the changes happen, the old players will be higher skilled, and will be able to enjoy these new ways of training skills even more.

 

 

 

 

 

Aside: I am going to translate this into french. That could take me a while. Especially considering that I'm brown and haven't seen the eiffel tower except in pictures.

 

 

 

Oh, and I just got my ACT scores. My life is a piece of [redacted]. Missed one [redacted] question on the [redacted] Math section. 35 there :wall:. Composite score was 33. [redacted] my life.

[Dalcyte]

(sorry for coming off harsh--i don't mean it to be that way. I think you have some very good points in here, and they are certainly a respectful opinion. I happen to disagree. :P )

 

 

 

 

 

Precedents: I don't think you're giving this a fair assessment. Jagex has been almost completely consistent with their founding rules of gameplay from the start. They have not swayed nor faultered on this front. And rarely do they change their judgement on other things. You can't take ONE isolated example and just apply the slippery slope. It doesn't work like that--Jagex has nothing to gain nor any reason to destroy their game with altering their rules.

 

 

 

Skills: My friend, that has, is, and always will be the basis of this game we call Runescape. Clicking is just a matter of fact. By trying to remove all the clicking, you're saying that Jagex should alter their rules that are set in stone. This is what confuses me about your argument. You talk up there in precedents about how Jagex should stick by their guns in their updates, stick with their history. But down here you want them to change it and alter it. The only difference is, up there, there's no big benefit for you personally. Down there, in clicking, there is. It'd be make the game significantlly easier. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't ask jagex to be firm in the rulings and judgements, then ask them to take out what's been a constant (and slowly been altered) since the game's creation. That's hypocrtical. A lot of people may not enjoy the clicking, but they enjoy the reward. I include myself in this grouping.

 

 

 

Time: Similar to the Skills section, you're asking Jagex to change what they've been doing and set a new precedent. First, they do release a lot of mid-low level content. For a good portion of 2007 and 2008, the majority of rants heard were about lack of high level content. There is plenty of content out for lower levels. Levels in the game are meant to show just levels. There's nothing wrong with that, and I like to know the levels of people who are around me. Level 3s HAVE to be left out for a while! That's the point. It seems like in essence, you're trying to apply communism to runescape. That may be a stretch, ok, but level 3s HAVE to work to gain access to content. That's the way it's always been for everyone else. that's the way it was for the level 138, level 108 and the level 8.

 

 

 

Money: This follows a trend once again. In runescape, here's the concept. In order to gain high level skills, YOU HAVE to spend money or spend time (usually a mixture of both--if you spend no money, you spend much more time). It's a pain to gain the money, but that's just the way it works! We all have to work for our goods. By making the most powerful spell in the game something that doesn't require a bare minimum of level 94 magic, you're disregarding all the hard work people put into getting that level. Hard work deserves a reward. I certainly can see harm in making ice barrage into a less elitist spell. You're saying "ehhh clicking's overrated, here you go lvl 50 mage, take this spell. Sorry level 94s who worked for hours and spent countless amounts of money. No point in getting that level i guess lulzkthxbai". Really, by this section, you're arguing capitalism versus communism. I mean if you think communism is better, more power to you. But runescape is a capitalist game and has always been founded with that in mind. If you work hard, you have the ability to flaunt your wealth in a variety of ways. The best armors DO require high levels, save barrows. But usually these things go hand in hand. Something that's really good typically costs a lot of money.

 

 

 

Interpersonal Interaction: This is a person to person thing, and you can't put a blanket statement over it i feel like. I think that when people spend hours and hours for their money, they actually do have the right to feel superior. I don't think they ARE for spending hours, but they should get something for their hard work and dedication. People can raise levels alone and with others, and that's the beauty of the game and all rpgs: Do whatever you want. If you want to stop repetative actions through groups of people, you already have that option. It's just there for you. Jagex shouldn't be in charge of nudging you into making friends.

 

 

 

 

 

-------

 

The world of runescape may be a rough one, but it's one defined by its players. It IS a capitalist game, and capitalism does imply all these things you berate.

[Gpguy]

Clicking is just a matter of fact. By trying to remove all the clicking, you're saying that Jagex should alter their rules that are set in stone.

 

 

 

I'm trying to make the clicking more fun, not remove it.

 

 

 

level 3s HAVE to work to gain access to content.

 

 

 

Yes. That's what I'm trying to change. They should have access to most of the content, but it should be more fun when they're higher level.

 

 

 

Hard work deserves a reward. I certainly can see harm in making ice barrage into a less elitist spell. You're saying "ehhh clicking's overrated, here you go lvl 50 mage, take this spell.

 

 

 

You shouldn't have to do "hard work" in a game in order to be able to enjoy it. And no I'm not saying to reduce the level requirements for it. I don't think you understood this section. or the one about precedents.

 

 

 

I think that when people spend hours and hours for their money, they actually do have the right to feel superior...but they should get something for their hard work and dedication

 

 

 

They can definitely feel superior. They don't have the right to say things that makes others feel inferior. And "hard work and dedication" should ideally be changed to "fun activities" and "playing longer because you want to".

 

 

 

 

The world of runescape may be a rough one, but it's one defined by its players. It IS a capitalist game, and capitalism does imply all these things you berate.

 

 

 

Well. I am not advocating any form of communism/socialism. I simply feel that runescape should be less of a chore, and that the journey should be just as fun as the goal. I'm actually a conservative in real life, and I support the capitalistic U.S Economy of the late 1990's and pre-9/11 2000's.

[sees_all1]

 

Well. I am not advocating any form of communism/socialism. I simply feel that runescape should be less of a chore, and that the journey should be just as fun as the goal.

 

 

 

If you don't think its fun (and more of a chore), then maybe runescape isn't for you. There are plenty of games out there to chose from, many of which allow you to cheat your way through it.

[Gpguy]

If you don't think its fun (and more of a chore), then maybe runescape isn't for you. There are plenty of games out there to chose from, many of which allow you to cheat your way through it.

 

 

 

Ahh, the age old "if you don't like then leave" given to those who desire change. Now THIS is the way to get stuff done.

 

 

 

"John Hancock: Umm, I don't like that the British rule over us and tax us without our consent.

 

Intelligent thinker who is well informed: Well, if you don't like it, then leave, and take all of your stupid Patriots with you."

 

 

 

"Frederick Douglass: Umm, I don't like that blacks are slaves.

 

Intelligent thinker who is well informed: Well, if you don't like it, then leave, and take all of your stupid [redacted] with you."

 

 

 

"Elizabeth Cady Stanton: Umm, I don't like that women can't vote.

 

Intelligent thinker who is well informed: Well, if you don't like it, then leave, and take all of your stupid women with you."

 

 

 

"MLK: Umm, I don't like that blacks are segregated.

 

Intelligent thinker who is well informed: Well, if you don't like it, then leave, and take all of your stupid blacks with you."

 

 

 

I bow down to your reasoning Intelligent thinker who is well informed

[Guthorm]

You can't possibility compare things such as women's rights to a video game. -.-

 

 

 

Not everything is equal or necessary, women's rights or so are far more important than playing a different kind of video game. If you don't like something in Runescape, by all means go ahead and rant/suggest about it if you wish, and if Jagex does not agree with you, you can play something else. Stop playing a game is not as important such as give up on women's rights because the latter have a huge impact while the former may affect just a tiny tiny percentage of people.

 

 

 

You may say that the two are still the same, as you are giving up something when it is no longer to your like. Well that would be saying murder and theft would be same despite the seriousness of the crime. :?